How can I make a CL4 magic user viable in an ECL 8-9 campaign

[Stryyke]

Because of the way the DM does his campaign, I've had a huge problem getting magic users to be viable. General encounters go between ECL 7 and ECL 13. But the highest class level we are permitted is CL 4. I've been successful at making a rogue/poisoner, a monk, and a brute Ogre; but failed miserably with a bard, a wizard, and a sorcerer. I'd really like to make a magic user that is viable: but it's really difficult since we are fighting lvl 6-9 creatures regularly, while I start with only a couple lvl 2 spells.

So I need some advice on how to build an arcane magic user that can be viable until some of the big spells come online. All widely accepted sources are ok (please list the books you reference so I can bring them to my DM), and non-broken 3rd party sources will likely be accepted. Psion of any kind is a no, flat-out. We are running 3.5. I say arcane, but I will take any pure magic; though I tend to dislike non-nature deities.

The DM is a stickler with all polymorph type abilities, determining that being "familiar" means having spent at least a day in the presence of whatever I would polymorph into. Most of the major races are represented, so they won't be a problem; but even things like bears and wolves are no-goes, since I've not spent any time in their presence.

I was thinking about a battlefield control magic user, but a lot of those spells are higher level. The image I have in my head is using various wall of (blank) spells, transmute rock and earth digging spells, and other such spells. I know the lower levels have fog spells, and grease, of course, but I just feel like such a "one-trick-pony" doing that.

We have to take at least 4 LA, so I may as well take a monster species. I'll be starting at CL 4 whether I use those 4 LA or not. Also, I can barely stand mild cheeses; so assume the stinkier the cheese, the less likely I am to do it.

Anyway, any advice would be welcome. I've kinda been beating my head against a wall for 10 months trying to find something that would work.

[Dagroth]

Pixies make for great spellcasters, if you're forced to take LA.

[Stryyke]

Pixies make for great spellcasters, if you're forced to take LA.

It's been a year since we last saw a pixie, my GM may go for it. But he has squashed pixie before because they are suppose to be really rare in the city where we are based.

Edit: Just asked. He said it's really unlikely. I would have to pick up the thread of the previous pixie's character arc; and the group would never do that. It's not that they are jerks; their characters would just never go do something like that arc demands.

[Inevitability]

It's been a year since we last saw a pixie, my GM may go for it. But he has squashed pixie before because they are suppose to be really rare in the city where we are based.

Maybe point out how adventurers in general are supposed to be rare? Ask him just how many halfling truenamer/dragonfire adepts this city has, for instance, then ask him if you would be allowed to play such a character.

[Malroth]

Conjuration Specialist with Abrupt Jaunt has the best low level defense in the game and Cloudy conjuration lets your summon spells pull double duty as both damage dealing summons and disabling crowd control. As for LA I'd reccomend the Half Ogre template, the Primordial Giant template to swap all those +physical stats to Mental and the Phrenic template for good measure.

[Stryyke]

Maybe point out how adventurers in general are supposed to be rare? Ask him just how many halfling truenamer/dragonfire adepts this city has, for instance, then ask him if you would be allowed to play such a character.

We are in a monster city. The campaign is generally an evil campaign, and there are Ogres, orcs, goblinoids, trolls, etc living in "harmony" in the city. So most monster races would be fine. Only a few are outright banned: full dragons or any dragon bloodline, and celestials. We've had a number of half-fiends already, so it's sort of a "been there, done that" kind of thing. If you have some interesting monsters that could be sorcerers or wizards, I'm open to them, though.


Conjuration Specialist with Abrupt Jaunt has the best low level defense in the game and Cloudy conjuration lets your summon spells pull double duty as both damage dealing summons and disabling crowd control. As for LA I'd reccomend the Half Ogre template, the Primordial Giant template to swap all those +physical stats to Mental and the Phrenic template for good measure.

Psi of any sort is out, full stop. He won't even let us dabble in that until we get to ECL 14.

[ATHATH]

Take the Phrenic and Half-Fey templates. Enjoy your oodles of SLAs and PLAs (remember that PLAs are automatically augmented!). Replace the Half-Fey template with the Half-Fey savage progression and/or the Phrenic template with Athasian Human to taste.

Ardent+Practiced Manifester can get you up to 4th level powers. Take the Substitute Powers ACF if you go that route, and remember the #1 rule of psionics: the number of PP that you spend on a power (base cost+augmentations) can't exceed your ML.

Versatile Spellcaster+Sandshaper, Arcane Disciple, Mother Cyst, and/or Cerebrosis is a classic.

Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord can get you 4ths as well.

Chameleon can snag you some neat stuff (stealing from the Trapsmith list FTW!).

If you can manage to get 3rds, the Wonderworker PrC's odd spellcasting progression method might help you.

Are you allowed to progress your spellcasting "properly" with PrCs?

Don't forget to pick up Practiced Spellcaster, if it's allowed.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Are you allowed to take a monster race with innate spellcasting? Because that could solve your problem pretty easily.
A Sylph (MM2) has 3HD and 5LA but casts as a 7th level sorcerer. A Loredrake Tome Dragon Wyrmling has 3HD, 5LA and casts as a 5th level sorcerer, and dragon HD are awesome.


Conjuration Specialist with Abrupt Jaunt has the best low level defense in the game and Cloudy conjuration lets your summon spells pull double duty as both damage dealing summons and disabling crowd control. As for LA I'd reccomend the Half Ogre template, the Primordial Giant template to swap all those +physical stats to Mental and the Phrenic template for good measure.

Using CL 4 summons against CR 7-13 enemies is doomed to fail. They're not going to hit anything.
A wizard has not only the weaker (for beatsticks) Summon Monster, he also lacks access to Ashbound and Greenbound or anything equivalent (a +6 to attack rolls and a whole lot of other stuff), so he doesn't even need to bother.

Even a druid summoner with Ashbound, Greenbound Summoning and Augment Summoning is going to have to work against those odds instead of stomping encounters, and that's pretty much the pinnacle of low-level optimized summons.

I do agree that you want to increase you mental stats as high as possible though. You'll have big problems getting monsters to fail their saves against your spells as it is, so you either use spells without saves or you pull every trick you can to increase them.

[Uncle Pine]

If PrCs count towards the "4 levels only" rules, Wizard 4/Rainbow Servant 4 (Complete Divine) works very well (heck, Wizard 1/RS 4/another PrC 3 is even possible, you just need more feats for the early entry). If you enter at 5th level you only need Sanctum Spell (Complete Arcane). Remember that text trumps table so RS gives full casting progression.

[ATHATH]

A Glammer (Glimmer? I forget the exact name) is ECL 11, so if the campaign gets that far and you die, consider playing one.

OOH! Catoblepases are ECL 6, and they're fun. Who doesn't want to play as a long-necked pig that can shoot death lasers out of its eyes?

[ATHATH]

DOUBLE OOH! Sharn (the race, not the city) get loads of goodies, like 6th level Sorcerer and Favored Soul casting and the ability to take 3 standard actions per turn. They're ECL 9, IIRC. Check 'em out.

[Stryyke]

Are you allowed to take a monster race with innate spellcasting? Because that could solve your problem pretty easily.
A Sylph (MM2) has 3HD and 5LA but casts as a 7th level sorcerer. A Loredrake Tome Dragon Wyrmling has 3HD, 5LA and casts as a 5th level sorcerer, and dragon HD are awesome.


That may be the answer I'm looking for. When you say "casts as a 7th level sorcerer," is that complete with 3rd level spells? Or does that only adjust saves, damage, and other scaling features of spells?

[Tiri]

That may be the answer I'm looking for. When you say "casts as a 7th level sorcerer," is that complete with 3rd level spells? Or does that only adjust saves, damage, and other scaling features of spells?

Yes, it is complete with all the spellcasting features of a 7th-level sorcerer, including 3rd-level spells.

[Stryyke]

Yes, it is complete with all the spellcasting features of a 7th-level sorcerer, including 3rd-level spells.

The monster Manual lists it as HD4 LA5. I wonder if I give up the summon elemental 1x/day, whether he would drop that to HD4 LA4? Because that would indeed be the answer to the problem. ECL 8 casting as a CL 7 is much much better. But I wouldn't be CL 7, so I would be stuck at CL 7 until I got 7 levels of sorcerer under my wings. Is that right? Because that could be problematic.

[Tiri]

The monster Manual lists it as HD4 LA5. I wonder if I give up the summon elemental 1x/day, whether he would drop that to HD4 LA4? Because that would indeed be the answer to the problem. ECL 8 casting as a CL 7 is much much better. But I wouldn't be CL 7, so I would be stuck at CL 7 until I got 7 levels of sorcerer under my wings. Is that right? Because that could be problematic.

No. if you gain a level of the class you have innate casting as, you just add the class level to your innate casting.

[Stryyke]

No. if you gain a level of the class you have innate casting as, you just add the class level to your innate casting.

Not that I necessarily think you are wrong, but can you cite the book and page where that is clarified? My GM will want that information, and I want to be sure that it is RAW.

[ShurikVch]

How you are about Undead? Because Death Master (Dragon Compendium) gets Animate Dead as a 2nd-level spell, and Undead minion in place of usual familiar

Also, if Kingdoms of Kalamar stuff is allowed, try to make Darklight Wizard - this class have full BAB, and at 4th level can cast 4th-level spells
Spell list (up to 4th-level):
1st - cause fear, chill touch, detect undead, ray of enfeeblement
2nd - ghoul touch, scare, spectral hand, wall of shadows
3rd - fireball, gentle repose, slow death, vampiric touch
4th - contagion, enervation, fear, taint of evil
Yes, list is short, but you may expand it by taking, say, Arcane Disciple, or Mother Cyst (and if you can take Nexus Method, you will also qualify for Bloodline feats - say, Earth will give you access to Stone Shape, and Penumbra - to Evard's Black Tentacles; Aquatic Fey may give you access to Charm Monster, but will require Obtain Familiar)

[Stryyke]

How you are about Undead? Because Death Master (Dragon Compendium) gets Animate Dead as a 2nd-level spell, and Undead minion in place of usual familiar

Also, if Kingdoms of Kalamar stuff is allowed, try to make Darklight Wizard - this class have full BAB, and at 4th level can cast 4th-level spells
Spell list (up to 4th-level):
1st - cause fear, chill touch, detect undead, ray of enfeeblement
2nd - ghoul touch, scare, spectral hand, wall of shadows
3rd - fireball, gentle repose, slow death, vampiric touch
4th - contagion, enervation, fear, taint of evil
Yes, list is short, but you may expand it by taking, say, Arcane Disciple, or Mother Cyst (and if you can take Nexus Method, you will also qualify for Bloodline feats - say, Earth will give you access to Stone Shape, and Penumbra - to Evard's Black Tentacles; Aquatic Fey may give you access to Charm Monster, but will require Obtain Familiar)

I really have no personal problem with undead. We are in an evil-centric campaign, and the two sides warring at the moment are undead vs goblinoids. If the group were to side with the undead, that would be feasible. Otherwise, they would just kill me on sight.

[Tiri]

Not that I necessarily think you are wrong, but can you cite the book and page where that is clarified? My GM will want that information, and I want to be sure that it is RAW.

From the 'Improving Monsters' section of the SRD:


A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

[Inevitability]

Not that I necessarily think you are wrong, but can you cite the book and page where that is clarified? My GM will want that information, and I want to be sure that it is RAW.

Got you covered.


A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already
has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question,
since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with
its innate spellcasting ability. A rakshasa, for example, casts spells
as a 7th-level sorcerer. If it picks up a level of sorcerer, it casts
spells as an 8th-level sorcerer.

Monster Manual, page 294.

[Stryyke]

Got you covered.



Monster Manual, page 294.


From the 'Improving Monsters' section of the SRD:

Quote Originally Posted by SRD
A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.


Excellent. Thanks.

[Tiri]

I get no thanks? :smallfrown:

[Stryyke]

@Tiri

LOL Sorry, I just read his first.

[ATHATH]

Is there a reason that you picked the Sylph over the Sharn?

[Stryyke]

Is there a reason that you picked the Sylph over the Sharn?

A few. Sylph is sorcerer lvl 7 instead of 6. I can get it for ECL 8 instead of 9. Sharn is from the underdark, so having it running around the city isn't terribly likely; while Sylph is widely traveled and rarely stays near it's home, so encountering them in the city or in the surrounding area is more likely. Greater invisibility at will. Fly 90 (good). And sharn seems a bit . . . blue cheese. 9 attacks! Not really what I'm looking for. And it just seems to fit my personality better.

It was a good suggestion, I just like the sylph better. Thanks for your input, though.

[Deox]

Just to throw a spanner in here -

Since you could have innate spell-casting, you could auto qualify for the haste component for the Swiftblade PRC (assuming you have all the other pre-reqs of course) http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

[Vizzerdrix]

What was the other thing that had built in casting? Looked like a green tenticle with spindly arms and little tenticles around its big toothy mouth. That may be lower la/hd so you could stack templates or something.

[sleepyphoenixx]

What was the other thing that had built in casting? Looked like a green tenticle with spindly arms and little tenticles around its big toothy mouth. That may be lower la/hd so you could stack templates or something.

Phaerimm? That's the only monster that comes to mind with that description.

[ATHATH]

Remember that in order to advance your racial spellcasting with PrCs, you have to take at least one level in the spellcasting class your racial spellcasting is based on.

[Inevitability]

Phaerimm? That's the only monster that comes to mind with that description.

If it's the Phaerimm, then that would be a great way to get around the restrictions. After all, Phaeriim casting scales with HD, not RHD, so even something like fighter levels would still increase your casting ability.

[Vizzerdrix]

Phaerimm? That's the only monster that comes to mind with that description.

Might be. What book is it in? Ill let ya know if it is.

[TerrickTerran]

They're from Monsters of Faeurn.

[Anthrowhale]

If it's the Phaerimm, then that would be a great way to get around the restrictions. After all, Phaeriim casting scales with HD, not RHD, so even something like fighter levels would still increase your casting ability.

Sylph have this property to. In particular, their inate casting is based on HD with no mention of RHD. Some people interpret it as RHD for balance reasons, but that is not RAW.

[Vizzerdrix]

They're from Monsters of Faeurn.

Yeah that is what I was thinking of, but for some reason I remember young ones being an option.

[Rebel7284]

Monster of Legend casts spells as a 5th level cleric for 7LA and arguably can cast two spells per turn if they chose the 3.0 haste variant. Leaves you with less HD than Sylph, but cleric casting is pretty nice too and the stats modifiers are all sorts of silly.

[Inevitability]

Yeah that is what I was thinking of, but for some reason I remember young ones being an option.

The update booklet gives hatchlings a LA of +2.

[Telok]

Aranea have 3 RHD, 4 LA, and sorcerer casting in addition to poison, web, shapechanging, and a climb speed.

And this thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?401132-Lists-of-Every-Playable-Monster-by-ECL) and this thing (http://ant.hivemind.net/monsters.html)

[Vizzerdrix]

The update booklet gives hatchlings a LA of +2.

And there we have all the parts. Just take one of those and load it up and go.

[Stryyke]

Thanks everyone for the input. I think I'm going to go with the Sylph. It's basically a pixie that might actually be encountered. And I wanted to go pixie at first anyway.

I need a bit more help, if you all don't mind. My GM doesn't like MM II, and the LA's it provides. The Sylph is listed as LA 5, which is one or two higher than I really want. If my GM and I agree to give up the "summon elemental 1x/day" and the "Empower Spell" feat that comes with the build, do you all think that would cut it down to LA 4? They are great, but they are not necessary for the build I'm considering.

And the Ability modifiers would be

STR -3
DEX +2
CON -3
INT +5
WIS +6
CHA +7

Is that correct?

[Inevitability]

Thanks everyone for the input. I think I'm going to go with the Sylph. It's basically a pixie that might actually be encountered. And I wanted to go pixie at first anyway.

I need a bit more help, if you all don't mind. My GM doesn't like MM II, and the LA's it provides. The Sylph is listed as LA 5, which is one or two higher than I really want. If my GM and I agree to give up the "summon elemental 1x/day" and the "Empower Spell" feat that comes with the build, do you all think that would cut it down to LA 4? They are great, but they are not necessary for the build I'm considering.

And the Ability modifiers would be

STR -3
DEX +2
CON -3
INT +5
WIS +6
CHA +7

Is that correct?

WotC's LAs aren't the best to begin with, but as long as you rule that casting keys off RHD rather than total HD +4 seems about right.

Ability adjustments are always even. If the score is odd, you subtract 11, and if it's even you subtract 10 to get the modifiers. Actual adjustments would be -2, +2, -2, +4, +6, +6.

[Stryyke]

WotC's LAs aren't the best to begin with, but as long as you rule that casting keys off RHD rather than total HD +4 seems about right.

Ability adjustments are always even. If the score is odd, you subtract 11, and if it's even you subtract 10 to get the modifiers. Actual adjustments would be -2, +2, -2, +4, +6, +6.

The main problem is that I'm taking sylph specifically because it starts at Sorcerer lvl 7. I can't possibly give that up, since that's the whole point. Aside from that, what would drop it to LA4? It's not mandatory, but at LA 4 with 3 RHD, I can take 1 lvl of Sorcerer and be casting as an 8th lvl Sorcerer. Otherwise I would be casting one level behind my ECL.

[Inevitability]

The main problem is that I'm taking sylph specifically because it starts at Sorcerer lvl 7. I can't possibly give that up, since that's the whole point. Aside from that, what would drop it to LA4? It's not mandatory, but at LA 4 with 3 RHD, I can take 1 lvl of Sorcerer and be casting as an 8th lvl Sorcerer. Otherwise I would be casting one level behind my ECL.

You seem to have misunderstood. I was saying that with the changes you suggest and the assumption that sylph casting isn't increased by non-sorcerer levels, a LA of +4 would be fine.

[Stryyke]

You seem to have misunderstood. I was saying that with the changes you suggest and the assumption that sylph casting isn't increased by non-sorcerer levels, a LA of +4 would be fine.

Ah. Ok. Whew :smallsigh: Well that should work just fine, then. Thanks.

[Anthrowhale]

You might also want to consider advancing _sylph_, which goes to 9HD. Outsider HD are d8, BAB 1/level, all saves good, and skill points a rogue. That's a better chassis than Sorcerer and most (but not all) prestige classes.

[Stryyke]

You might also want to consider advancing _sylph_, which goes to 9HD. Outsider HD are d8, BAB 1/level, all saves good, and skill points a rogue. That's a better chassis than Sorcerer and most (but not all) prestige classes.

Thanks for that. I hadn't considered it. You are right. That advancement path would be better than sorcerer.

[ATHATH]

You might want to dip Sorcerer for an ACF or two, though.