OP gish booming blade build

[EduWendigo]

Hi guys, this build is efficient from 6 to 20 but i will focus on max power.

Half orc Paladin 2/Dragon Sorcerer 18

Feats
- Warcaster
- GWM
- Polearm Master
- Spell sniper

Metamagic
- Quickened
- Twinned
- Heightened
- Empowered

Paly spec: greater weapon spec

Best rare weapon choice
- Flametongue Halberd (optional rulling)

Attack options
1) Basic round:
- Quickened Hold Person/Monster;
- Empowered Booming Blade+Divine smite(4 lvl slot);
OR
- Quickened Hold Person/Monster(1 lvl higher for 2 targets);
- Twinned Empowered Booming Blade+Divine smite(4 lvl slot);
OR
- Heightened Hold Person/Monster;
- Quickened Empowered Booming Blade+Divine smite(4 lvl slot);
2) Already paralised enemy:
- Quickened Empowered Booming Blade+Divine smite(4 lvl slot);
- Empowered Booming Blade+Divine smite(4 lvl slot);
3) Oportunity:
- Warcaster Empowered Booming Blade;

Variantions:
- Empowering booming blade is optional;
- GWM Power Attack when enemy is paralised;

Best results for an attack considering that paralised means crit and advantage on attacks:
3d12(crit weapon) + 4d6(crit flaming) + 6d8(crit booming) + 10d8(crit divine smite) + 10(GWM) + Str = 138

On second round if there are two paralised targets you can do more than 276 to first target and 138 to second.

Many details can be changed but this is the basic build.

Very high burst dmg, good sustained dmg, high armor, good hp, flying, full caster, good CC... What more can you want?

Hope you enjoy it with cheese and make your DM cry =D.

[Citan]

Hi!

Ok, I don't like being the troublemaker here but...
1) How are you supposed to hit that reliably when you need STR (attack), CHA (chance to suck) to max, CON for concentration (although it's arguably less needed on a character with heavy armor and constitution proficiency)...
Because you are talking about a character which spends all ASIs on feats here.

Heigthened can help on the save or suck spell front, but nothing about your weapon attacks.

So the only truly reliable tactic imo is start with Heigthened to ensure you paralysed the target in the first place.

2) Why 18th level? You cannot stack Draconic Presence with any concentration spell, so no help there. Just for the 4th Metamagic? It's a good choice. I wouldn't dare it's the best though, especially when you boast about good savings, unless you were talking about debuffs...

This is a very good build, no doubt here, which will easily outshine any true Paladin on nova competition and boast potentially great versatility depending on spell choice.
When you are out of juice though, you are lesser than a normal Paladin :
- Offense-wise, weapon put aside, it's Booming Blade with lesser chance to hit, versus 2-3 attacks with GWM+1d8 damage with potential to-hit bonus (Devotion, Vengeance).
- Defense-wise, it's 1d6+flying+potential Mirror Image VS 1d10+powerful self-healing+ powerful Auras.

PalaSorcs are great, but as long as you manage their resources carefully, especially with such a break 2/18.

[D-naras]

You can shore up strength with a belt of ogre strength, which is not out of the question for 20 level build.

[rooneg]

Umm, there's no such thing as a Thunder Dragon Sorcerer. If your DM is letting you have one the only person they have to blame is themselves ;-)

[rollingForInit]

Hi!

Ok, I don't like being the troublemaker here but...
1) How are you supposed to hit that reliably when you need STR (attack), CHA (chance to suck) to max, CON for concentration (although it's arguably less needed on a character with heavy armor and constitution proficiency)...

Maxing it isn't really critical in 5e, though. You can manage fine on 16. Although I'd probably exchange Spell Sniper (since it's a melee build) and Polearm Master (since you don't get the extra attack with cantrips), and max one stat, or just take both to 18, depending on what I felt I ended up doing more of.

[Ursus the Grim]

Gee whiz. I'm really impressed!

Why has nobody else ever thought of this? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass)

[EduWendigo]

Umm, there's no such thing as a Thunder Dragon Sorcerer. If your DM is letting you have one the only person they have to blame is themselves ;-)

Np 5 dmg less on build... Anything more to say?

[EduWendigo]

Hi!

Ok, I don't like being the troublemaker here but...
1) How are you supposed to hit that reliably when you need STR (attack), CHA (chance to suck) to max, CON for concentration (although it's arguably less needed on a character with heavy armor and constitution proficiency)...
Because you are talking about a character which spends all ASIs on feats here.

Heigthened can help on the save or suck spell front, but nothing about your weapon attacks.

So the only truly reliable tactic imo is start with Heigthened to ensure you paralysed the target in the first place.

2) Why 18th level? You cannot stack Draconic Presence with any concentration spell, so no help there. Just for the 4th Metamagic? It's a good choice. I wouldn't dare it's the best though, especially when you boast about good savings, unless you were talking about debuffs...

This is a very good build, no doubt here, which will easily outshine any true Paladin on nova competition and boast potentially great versatility depending on spell choice.
When you are out of juice though, you are lesser than a normal Paladin :
- Offense-wise, weapon put aside, it's Booming Blade with lesser chance to hit, versus 2-3 attacks with GWM+1d8 damage with potential to-hit bonus (Devotion, Vengeance).
- Defense-wise, it's 1d6+flying+potential Mirror Image VS 1d10+powerful self-healing+ powerful Auras.

PalaSorcs are great, but as long as you manage their resources carefully, especially with such a break 2/18.

Even with not so high str you can deal great dmg. And if you get an str item it gets a little better.

You have plenty juice for many fights as each high lvl slot can become lvl 4 and some more sorcery points to metamagic.

Just use what you have carefully and you will have at least 5-6 bursting all out and after that you stay on booming action + quickened booming+ haste attack+booming oportunities for long time.

Defense-wise add the fact that the nearest enemies are probably paralised...

[Ursus the Grim]

Let’s put aside, for a moment, the fact that this multiclass is already a pretty well-known option (again, so much so that it has its own handbook right here on these very forums).

Let’s get into the problems with your specific build.

Basic round:
- Quickened Hold Person/Monster;
- Empowered Booming Blade+Divine smite(4 lvl slot);

In one round you’ve burned ⅙ of your Sorcery Points, ⅓ of your level 2 spells, and ⅓ of your level 4 spells against a single target.

- Heightened Hold Person/Monster;
- Quickened Empowered Booming Blade+Divine smite(4 lvl slot);

In this one you’ve blown ⅓ of your sorcery points!

This is not 'sustainable DPR'. This is Nova. A typical day is supposed to see at least 6-8 encounters, normally with more than one single target.

You’re also using some of the most commonly resisted damage types.

You are, strictly speaking, less tanky than a Paladin 6/Sorc 14 would be (without even getting much more damage from it.) This is also assuming that you're willing to burn all of your resources to throw these dice out. You also mentioned good Armor. I don't even necessarily think your AC can get that good with this build. Sure, Full Plate and a shield spell help. But even then, I'd expect, what, a 24 AC? You know how easy that is to hit at level 20? This isn't a Bladesinger or EK.

This is a very MAD build and really requires your DM to let you roll for stats (which makes him complicit.) You need Str, Con, and Cha. Even assuming 15/8/15/8/8/15 your stats will only be 17/8/16/8/8/15. I mean, those aren’t bad, but if your strategy hinges around Hold Person, you’re really going to want to make it stick. You really should be using most of those ASIs on, well, ASIs.

You have 10+6+90+60=166 HP, or roughly 8 HP per level. That’s not really that tanky. A level 20 Paladin will have 10% more HP, assuming they didn’t put any points into Con. They’ll also have some other pretty powerful defensive abilities.


“You have plenty juice for many fights as each high lvl slot can become lvl 4 and some more sorcery points to metamagic.”

Just so we’re clear on RAW here. An 8th level slot burnt for smite still only grants the same damage a 4th level slot does. I think you know that. You only have 3 4th level Smites. In order to get more you need to either (a) burn high level spells (Disintegrate for Smite? Why not?) or (b) Burn the spells into SP, then use the SP to make level 4 slots. This is done at a loss.


booming action + quickened booming+ haste attack+booming oportunities for long time.

You know that your previous strategies all used Concentration, right? You can’t have both Haste and Hold Person active reliably. You also can’t cast Booming Blade with your Haste action.

[Corran]

I think you are trying to squeeze one too many tricks-gimmicks into the same build and that will leave the build exposed to other areas.

If you want to focus to the hold-smite routine, you dont really need spell sniper or warcaster, and I am not too certain about GWM too (unless perhaps you have a great attack bonus, still, it might not be worth the risk). What you do need though for this tactics to fly better, is extra attack. With a quickened upcasted hold person you can target more than one targets, and if you are lucky and two adjacent to each other enemies fail their saves, you can get away with a twinned BB on top of both of its attacks you can throw smites. But if you are up against one target who just failed his save against your hold person, you will be better of with extra attack against him instead of using BB, because with extra attack you will be able to deal two smites while with BB just one (using the BB is a valid option when you need to save on spell slots, and it deals more damage per resource expenditure, though the extra attack and two smites will give you better nova at a steeper cost). To make this combo fly even better, you an even add 3 levels in battlemaster, for action surge, superiority dice and the maneuvres. Personally I think it is an overkill. There was a thread a while back by Carlos Barretto (sorry if I mispelled the name), talking about such a build. Finally, PAM can sure be useful, but I am not too sure if you can squeeze it in such a build that requires both physical stats and cha, and there is some overlap and no IDS or sentinel to make it really shine. For race I think you would just be better off with vhuman for easier access to feats and the cha bonus instead of the con bonus of the halforc. So if I were you, I would probably just keep warcaster out from all these feats and do with a longsword (the majority of damage comes from doubling the d8's). And I would plan for extra attack (either by paladin or by sorcerer FS).
Question: Why draconic origin?
ps: I am not sure if empower is worth the sorcery point when used with BB.


On the other hand, with warcaster, spell sniper, PAM and BB, you have very damaging OA's when someone enters your reach of 10'. You could even throw mobile on top of that so that you can exploit these OA's more often, though this can only work if everyone in the group is very mobile, and still, I suspect this will get old pretty soon. Without mobile, it is very nice, but the cost is too high imo (3 feats, w/o mobile). Maybe an EK can pull this off better than most, since they get a lot of feats.

[Ursus the Grim]

I think you are trying to squeeze one too many tricks-gimmicks into the same build and that will leave the build exposed to other areas.

If you want to focus to the hold-smite routine, you dont really need spell sniper or warcaster, and I am not too certain about GWM too (unless perhaps you have a great attack bonus, still, it might not be worth the risk). What you do need though for this tactics to fly better, is extra attack.

That's why I think 6/14 is a better spread for this.

I support GWM with the Unlimited Blades strategy here.
+10 damage is HUGE, and quickly adds up when you have 2 or more attacks.
-5 to hit is considerable, but ideally we're in Advantage situation here.
If something is left standing, but Paralyzed, in round 2, you get a free Bonus Melee Weapon Attack. Any hit on the Paralyzed enemy (as you know) counts as a critical hit, therefore triggers the other part of GWM.

GWM is probably the only feat I would take.

[Corran]

That's why I think 6/14 is a better spread for this.

I support GWM with the Unlimited Blades strategy here.
+10 damage is HUGE, and quickly adds up when you have 2 or more attacks.
-5 to hit is considerable, but ideally we're in Advantage situation here.
If something is left standing, but Paralyzed, in round 2, you get a free Bonus Melee Weapon Attack. Any hit on the Paralyzed enemy (as you know) counts as a critical hit, therefore triggers the other part of GWM.

GWM is probably the only feat I would take.
Some rough numbers, about wether or not GWM is worth it, regarding only the hold-smite thingy. I assume we have extra attack.

I first take the worst case for GWM, and that is that we are using 2 level 4 smites (5d8) (and I say the worst case because we'll be risking more damage in order to get that +10 to damage from GWM).
Say str is 16, hit chance 65%, 87.75% with advantage, 62.75% with adv and the -5 from GWM.
damage per attack (with GWM): 62.75% * (4d6 + 10d8 + 13) = 45.18
damage per attack (w/o GWM): 87.75% * (4d6 + 10d8 + 3) = 54.405

That means (assuming I did not do any silly mistakes), that the damage we are risking to lose in order to get that +10 from GWM, is just too much, and we the risk isn't worth taking.

If we modify the initial hit chance and the slot of smites, this might eventualy shift in favour of the GWM, but all in all GWM is not essential I think to that startgey, since the bulk of the damage is coming from rolled dice (mainly from doubling the smote dice), and risking that damage due to the -5 on attack from GWM is a bit counterproductive (particularly since we paid with sorcery points and with a spell slot -hold person/monster, possibly even upcasted to maximize the chances of it sticking to someone- in order to have a shot at it).

Of course, if we start taking into account the following rounds, GWM will do wonders for us since it gives that that bonus action attack, but I dont think that chances of that being the case (ie the target survives more than 2 rounds -considering that the rest of the group might do some damage to the para;yzed target- without even the bonus action attack) wont be high. Maybe against bosses, but then again these enemies have legendary resistances and the like, so that strategy wont be able to work in such cases.

All in all, I dont think GWM is essential to this trick, just quickened spell, extra attack, several slots to smite, hold person/ hold monster, and that's about it. Going for a GFB or a BB (expecially if we can twin it to hit two adjacent paralyzed targets!) instead of the extra attack will deal less damage overall but will burn far fewer resources, sresulting in a better ration of damage per ''resource unit'' spent, particularly the higher level your character is. You can even push it and include a fighter dip for action surge and maneuvres that add to the damage and can increase the hit chance (eg precision), but that hurts your overall build a bit too much imo. Imo, the choice of GWM or not, should be done depending on if the rest of the build can support it, and not just because of the hold quickened hold person - smite trick. The trick works almost equally good wether we do it with a longsword or with a greatsword and GWM.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496052-Opinions-about-Fighter-3-%28B-Master%29-Paladin-2-Sorcerer-%28Fav-Soul%2915-gish-build&highlight=carlos+barreto) is an old thread I remember that talked a bit about this combo.

[EduWendigo]

Just so we’re clear on RAW here. An 8th level slot burnt for smite still only grants the same damage a 4th level slot does. I think you know that.

You can use your flexible casting to transform an 8th slot into a 4th slot plus 2 sorcery points things like that...

A pure paladin can't hold and crit 100%. So less dps.
More tanky... Yes but why tank if you can have enemies paralised?

A 6/14 have 2 less high slots, no access to 8th and 9th lvl sorc spells, 4 less sorc points, 1 less metamagic, and few times there will not be 2 targets in a 10ft radius, so twinned will make up for some extra attacks while adding 12d8 from twinned crit booming for just 1 sp

[Ursus the Grim]

You can use your flexible casting to transform an 8th slot into a 4th slot plus 2 sorcery points things like that...

Remember, this takes 2 Bonus Actions. You can't convert directly. Its also inefficient to create spell slots, by design. Compare the points you get from burning slots to the points it costs to create them

Besides, are you really going to tell me that you're happy to trade a Dominate Monster for another Smite? Because in a situation where you're assuming they fail their saves anyway, I think I'd rather command the creature for an hour than to burn resources nuking it.

[djreynolds]

Question how good would elemental adept be on this? This way you can avoid resistance to thunder, I'm unsure how many creatures which resistance to thunder?

[Captain Panda]

Question how good would elemental adept be on this? This way you can avoid resistance to thunder, I'm unsure how many creatures which resistance to thunder?

Almost nothing resists thunder.

As stated above, there's a fantastic guide to a build like (but better) than the suggested one in the OP right here on this site.

I main a sword and board sorcadin myself, and the extra damage you get from great weapons doesn't strike me as sufficient reason to drop the shield.

[joaber]

Why dragon origin instead of wild magic? The bonus damage don't work with thunder, you don't need the AC with plate. And wild magic table is great to someone that will be in melee. Of course, if the dm let you roll in that after cast spells. Or favored soul for spirit guardians and so, if UA is allowed.

[EduWendigo]

Remember, this takes 2 Bonus Actions. You can't convert directly. Its also inefficient to create spell slots, by design. Compare the points you get from burning slots to the points it costs to create them

Besides, are you really going to tell me that you're happy to trade a Dominate Monster for another Smite? Because in a situation where you're assuming they fail their saves anyway, I think I'd rather command the creature for an hour than to burn resources nuking it.
Convert out of combat...

It is more efficient to convert and use on ds than just use a 8th lvl slot.

You have the option to use smite or dominate monster and while a pure paly and many other builds don't.

[EduWendigo]

Almost nothing resists thunder.

As stated above, there's a fantastic guide to a build like (but better) than the suggested one in the OP right here on this site.

I main a sword and board sorcadin myself, and the extra damage you get from great weapons doesn't strike me as sufficient reason to drop the shield.

Link this build plz

[Ursus the Grim]

Link this build plz

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21819120&postcount=6

Really, its my fault for not putting the whole thing in blue text.

[Deleted]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21819120&postcount=6

Really, its my fault for not putting the whole thing in blue text.

Bad ewok, bad!

(Or italics as choosing a color suck on mobile)