Optimized 5th level Champion

[Oramac]

I'm going to be playtesting some things and need to make a 5th level Champion to playtest against. In this case, story and background are entirely irrelevant.

So how would you make a totally optimized Champion at 5th level, both with a 2-Hander and Sword-and-Board?

EDIT: Forgot to add, it's using the Standard Array and only PHB races.

[Vorpalchicken]

Variant human for each. Starting stats: S16 D12 C14 I10 W14 C8
A) Two hander takes GWM at first, GWF style, +2 Strength at 4th. Wear plate or splint if plate is not available. Use a greatsword.
B) Sword and board takes Shield Master (for opening bonus action shoves) and duelist style , +2 Strength for ASI. Longsword, shield and best heavy armor.

[Oramac]

Starting stats: S16 D12 C14 I10 W14 C8

Thanks!

I get it all except why the 14 Wis?

[Vorpalchicken]

Failing wisdom saves is a bad thing. And having better perception can't hurt.

[jaappleton]

If you go Champion, I say Half Orc all the way. Their synergy to make crits hurt even more is a great thing.

[joaber]

best way to optimize a lvl 5 champion is:

make a battlemaster

[Vorpalchicken]

Half Orcs do make good champions but I think a free feat is slightly better. GWM gets a free attack with a crit. And Shield Master is possibly doubling your chance for Crits.

[jaappleton]

Half Orcs do make good champions but I think a free feat is slightly better. GWM gets a free attack with a crit. And Shield Master is possibly doubling your chance for Crits.

For TWF, I like Half Orc.

For the other options, I agree with your statements. Though for GWF, I don't like it on a Champion; No reliable way to get Advantage as often as I like. Barbarians? Oh, all day. Champion Fighters? Not so much.

[LudicSavant]

I'm going to be playtesting some things and need to make a 5th level Champion to playtest against. In this case, story and background are entirely irrelevant.

So how would you make a totally optimized Champion at 5th level, both with a 2-Hander and Sword-and-Board?

EDIT: Forgot to add, it's using the Standard Array and only PHB races.

The Champion may not be the best baseline for balance, given that it is generally weaker than competing options.

[Specter]

Half-Orc with Mounted Combatant as a feat and GWF could be surprisingly good. Advantage against any medium/small creature would be splendid for crits.

[Oramac]

The Champion may not be the best baseline for balance, given that it is generally weaker than competing options.

True, but the Champion has Improved Critical. The homebrew I'm testing also has it. So I want to test it against the Champion first, and then move on from there.

[LudicSavant]

Half-Orc with Mounted Combatant as a feat and GWF could be surprisingly good. Advantage against any medium/small creature would be splendid for crits.

Half-Orc Mounted Combatant GWF Champion
18 Str / 12 dex / 16 con / 8 int / 13 wis / 10 cha
+7 to hit (3 prof, 4 str)
1d12+4 damage on hit, 3d12+4 damage on crit (greataxe)
2d6+4 damage on hit, 5d6+4 damage on crit (greatsword)

Mounted DPR vs AC 15 target (Medium or smaller), counting brutal criticals and GWF and all that.
w/ Greataxe: 25.463 repeating
w/ Greatsword: 26.395

I was really hoping for more, considering the kind of numbers a Paladin gets with their steed present.

Unmounted DPR vs AC 15 target (or mounted vs large or larger):
w/ Greataxe: 17.6 repeating
w/ Greatsword: 18.53 repeating

Edit: Note Champ's damage would be lower than this with standard array, because they can't get 18 strength and Mounted Combatant by level 4.

[Byke]

If you go Champion, I say Half Orc all the way. Their synergy to make crits hurt even more is a great thing.

QFT....crazy amount of damage, throw in some barb and reckless attack and things get even more silly.

[jaappleton]

QFT....crazy amount of damage, throw in some barb and reckless attack and things get even more silly.

I played a Half Orc Totem Barbarian with GWM. I know all about it. :smallbiggrin:

During one battle, I crit on both my Greataxe swings. The DM just said, "Don't bother rolling. I'll save us the time: You killed the miniboss is one round."

Ahh, Grom... I miss you.

[LudicSavant]

What specific builds are you using to get this crazy amount of damage?

[jaappleton]

What specific builds are you using to get this crazy amount of damage?

I was simply a pure Barbarian, Bear Totem, Half Orc with GWM as a Feat. By the time I got Brutal Critical for being a Barbarian, my Greataxe did 4d12 + 4 (Str) + 1 (It was a +1 Greataxe) + 10 (GWM) + 2 (Rage). As far as having a whopping 4d12, one from my normal greataxe damage, another for critting as normal, an extra dice for being a Half Orc and another for being a Barbarian. That's 4 total. I was level 7 or 8, I forget.

4d12 + 17 per Crit. And still 1d12 + 17 on a normal hit.

And Advantage on all my attacks because of Reckless Attack. So that's more chances to Crit.

And when I did Crit, or kill anything, I got a bonus action attack from GWM.

So 3 attacks per round, basically, each doing at least 1d12 + 17.

Sure, some things can do more. But as consistently, without expending resources? Just straight out of the box? Barbarian does it VERY well.

[Specter]

Half-Orc Mounted Combatant GWF
18 Str / 12 dex / 16 con / 8 int / 13 wis / 10 cha
+7 to hit (3 prof, 4 str)
1d12+4 damage on hit, 3d12+4 damage on crit (greataxe)
2d6+4 damage on hit, 5d6+4 damage on crit (greatsword)

Mounted DPR vs AC 15 target (Medium or smaller), counting brutal criticals and GWF and all that.
w/ Greataxe: 25.463 repeating
w/ Greatsword: 26.395

I was really hoping for more, considering the kind of numbers a Paladin gets with their steed present.

Unmounted DPR vs AC 15 target (or mounted vs large or larger):
w/ Greataxe: 17.6 repeating
w/ Greatsword: 18.53 repeating

Sorry, but nobody's talking about Paladin here bruh.

[LudicSavant]

I was simply a pure Barbarian, Bear Totem, Half Orc with GWM as a Feat. By the time I got Brutal Critical for being a Barbarian, my Greataxe did 4d12 + 4 (Str) + 1 (It was a +1 Greataxe) + 10 (GWM) + 2 (Rage). As far as having a whopping 4d12, one from my normal greataxe damage, another for critting as normal, an extra dice for being a Half Orc and another for being a Barbarian. That's 4 total. I was level 7 or 8, I forget.

4d12 + 17 per Crit. And still 1d12 + 17 on a normal hit.

And Advantage on all my attacks because of Reckless Attack. So that's more chances to Crit.

And when I did Crit, or kill anything, I got a bonus action attack from GWM.

So 3 attacks per round, basically, each doing at least 1d12 + 17.

Sure, some things can do more. But as consistently, without expending resources? Just straight out of the box? Barbarian does it VERY well.

Well... I mean... the example you gave is expending resources. So I don't know what the deal is with the "without expending resources" line. And anyways, we're supposed to be presenting a level 5 character.


Sorry, but nobody's talking about Paladin here bruh.

The numbers posted are for the Champion.

[jaappleton]

Well... I mean... the example you gave is expending resources. So I don't know what the deal is with the "without expending resources" line. And anyways, we're supposed to be presenting a level 5 character.

Somebody asked me a question and I answered it.

Deal with it :smallcool:

[LudicSavant]

Here's some different Champion builds using standard point buy, and their DPR given an AC 15 target (e.g. what the Creating a Monsters section says the standard AC for a CR5 monster is).

All figures include all the fiddly bits like critical hits and riders such as the half-orc's racial feature or the chance of extra attack from heavy weapon master.

Human Greatsword Master:
18 str, 10 dex 16 con, 8 int, 14 wis, 8 cha
Fighting Style: GWF
ASI: Strength
VHuman: +1 Strength, +1 Con, Heavy Weapon Master
Attack bonus: +7 (+3 prof, +4 strength)
Weapon: Greatsword

DPR vs AC 15 target: 21.389
With Advantage: 34.7699

Note: This factors in the chance to get an extra attack from critting, but not the chance to get an extra attack from reducing an enemy to zero hp.

Human Polearm Master:
18 str, 10 dex 16 con, 8 int, 14 wis, 8 cha
Fighting Style: GWF
ASI: Strength
VHuman: +1 Strength, +1 Con, Polearm Master
Attack bonus: +7 (+3 prof, +4 strength)
Weapon: Glaive

DPR vs AC 15 target: 19.5
With Advantage: 27.183

DPR vs AC 15 target (with PAM reaction/no advantage): 26.825

Human Heavy Weapon Master / Polearm Master
16 str, 10 dex 16 con, 8 int, 14 wis, 8 cha
Fighting Style: GWF
ASI: Heavy Weapon Master
VHuman: +1 Strength, +1 Con, Polearm Master
Attack bonus: +6 (+3 prof, +3 strength)
Weapon: Glaive

DPR vs AC 15 target: 20.95215
With Advantage: 30.9016125

Note: This factors in the chance to get an extra attack from critting (which then replaces your PAM attack), but not the chance to get an extra attack from reducing an enemy to zero hp.

Half-Orc Greatsword Master:
16 Str,12 Dex, 16 Con, 8 int, 14 Wis, 8 cha
Fighting Style: GWF
ASI: Heavy Weapon Master
Attack bonus: +6 (+3 prof, +3 strength)
Weapon: Greatsword

DPR vs AC 15 target: 19.0895
With Advantage: 32.18205

Note: This factors in the chance to get an extra attack from critting, but not the chance to get an extra attack from reducing an enemy to zero hp.

Featless Half-Orc Greatsword User:
18 Str,12 Dex, 16 Con, 8 int, 14 Wis, 8 cha
Fighting Style: GWF
ASI: Strength
Attack bonus: +7 (+3 prof, +4 strength)
Weapon: Greatsword

DPR vs AC 15 target: 18.53 repeating
With Advantage: 26.395

With Greataxe instead: 17.6 repeating
With Advantage: 25.463 repeating

Half-Orc Mounted Combatant:
16 Str,12 Dex, 16 Con, 8 int, 14 Wis, 8 cha
Fighting Style: GWF
ASI: Mounted Combatant
Attack bonus: +6 (+3 prof, +3 strength)
Weapon: Greatsword

DPR (unmounted, or vs large and larger targets): 16.1
DPR vs AC 15 target (mounted, medium or smaller size, or otherwise getting advantage): 23.79

Human Shield Master:
18 str, 10 dex 16 con, 8 int, 14 wis, 8 cha
Fighting Style: Duelist
ASI: Strength
Attack Bonus: +7 (+3 prof, +4 strength)
Skills: Athletics +7
Weapon: Longsword

The real strength of the Shield Master is that they get +2 AC and a bonus action shove, which limits a target's movement and gives all the melee combatants in your party advantage, and boosts their DPR accordingly. In order to know exactly how much the shove is adding, we'd need to know the enemy's Athletics or Acrobatics, and the statistics of your allies. That said, the chance of succeeding is pretty decent, because most creatures don't have Athletics or Acrobatics.

Shove chance of success vs Dex / Str 12 monster: 70%
DPR vs AC 15 target (no shove): 14.55
With Advantage: 20.1375

DPR vs AC 15 / dex/str 12 target (shove, no allies): 18.46125
The benefit is considerably more with allies, however.

There's a lot of figures there, so let me know if I had a typo somewhere or something.

Initial conclusions:
- Half-Orcs generally do less damage than humans as level 5 Champions with Point Buy, despite their crit damage bonus.
- Greatswords are better than greataxes even for half-orcs.
- Heavy Weapon Master combines quite well with your 10% crit rate (you get the extra attack from it surprisingly often).

Edit: Added two more builds.

Hope that helps. Anyone have any suggestions for further optimization?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Half Orcs do make good champions but I think a free feat is slightly better. GWM gets a free attack with a crit. And Shield Master is possibly doubling your chance for Crits.
It honestly depends on how long your campaign runs. Fighters get enough feats that you can stack Great Weapon Master and Half-Orc racial, cap out your strength, and grab a couple other good feats (like both Polearm Master and Sentinel, since polearms are great weapons) if you get level far enough, rendering the bonus feat from Variant Human less necessary.

At lower levels the Variant Human benefits from getting to prime feats first, though.

[LudicSavant]

It honestly depends on how long your campaign runs. Fighters get enough feats that you can stack Great Weapon Master and Half-Orc racial, cap out your strength, and grab a couple other good feats (like both Polearm Master and Sentinel, since polearms are great weapons) if you get level far enough, rendering the bonus feat from Variant Human less necessary.

At lower levels the Variant Human benefits from getting to prime feats first, though.

The VHuman definitely deals more damage at level 5 with standard point buy, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21820991&postcount=20)unless there's some build I'm not aware of.

Of course, Half-orcs also get stuff like darkvision and relentless endurance, both of which are nice to have.

[djreynolds]

I like champion with shield master, and just swinging away with advantage. Hopefully rolling twice, twice and you will get some crits, I like my dex 13 or chr 13, rogue or bard will make a nice addition

I battlemaster with GWM, because precision is there if you miss and you can use trip with a greatsword or halberd for advantage

VHuman is a good choice, can snag shield master right away or GWM. I like half-orc at low levels, helps when you get smacked by a crit

Lucky might be a nice choice as reroll for when DMs roll crits

[Malifice]

Half orc with a great axe and the great weapon master feat.

Wear full plate armour. Dump dexterity and intelligence. Have a decent wisdom and constitution.

Take athletics and perception.

Kill things.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

The VHuman definitely deals more damage at level 5 with standard point buy, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21820991&postcount=20)unless there's some build I'm not aware of.

Of course, Half-orcs also get stuff like darkvision and relentless endurance, both of which are nice to have.

Level 5, yes. As I said, Variant Human outperforms at lower levels. But how high level does this character expect to grow? Planning for growth is also a form of optimization.