Sanity Check - Wizard of a lonely world

[Aetis]

There was a thread awhile back that discussed the optimization of wizards who were limited to 2 spells learned per level.

My intuition says that even when limited, wizards remain the strongest class in the game compared to Clerics, Druids, and Sorcerers.

Is this correct? If not, how many spells per level would they need to maintain superiority over the other classes listed?

[Flickerdart]

I think a wizard with only 1 spell known per spell level could still be a force to be reckoned with. Better than a druid or cleric? Maybe.

1st: Charm person
2nd: Command undead
3rd: Magic circle against evil
4th: Animate dead
5th: Draconic polymorph
6th: Contingency
7th: Greater teleport
8th: Greater planar binding
9th: Gate

Is this the best spell list? Probably not, but it takes you far:

Command undead lets you field an insanely huge army of zombies that can overwhelm any melee challenger.
Greater planar binding gives you tricky fiends with SLAs that give you a ton of versatility and crush lesser casters.
Draconic polymorph gives you the muscle you need to break heads yourself, should you need to.
Gate and contingency are there as emergency buttons when a situation is going sour. You'll probably want to buy a scroll of something to make contingent.

[Segev]

I don't think a wizard thus limited would be better than a druid or a cleric; their spells are nearly as versatile by themselves, and they have access to all of them.

As for the 1 spell/level wizard, consider that a sorcerer is T2 if not optimized for T1, and would both know more spells than that wizard and have more spell slots per day from which to cast them. So I would have to conclude that that wizard is probably still T2. (I mean, would you say that a sorcerer with that spell selection plus whatever other spells he chooses is T1?)

[ryu]

I don't think a wizard thus limited would be better than a druid or a cleric; their spells are nearly as versatile by themselves, and they have access to all of them.

As for the 1 spell/level wizard, consider that a sorcerer is T2 if not optimized for T1, and would both know more spells than that wizard and have more spell slots per day from which to cast them. So I would have to conclude that that wizard is probably still T2. (I mean, would you say that a sorcerer with that spell selection plus whatever other spells he chooses is T1?)

Do keep in mind the sorcerer would still be getting his spells a level later. Is it a bad enough hurtle that you can't design a sorcerer better than flicker made? Probably not, but it's not to be dismissed during leveling by any stretch.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think a wizard thus limited would be better than a druid or a cleric; their spells are nearly as versatile by themselves, and they have access to all of them.

As for the 1 spell/level wizard, consider that a sorcerer is T2 if not optimized for T1, and would both know more spells than that wizard and have more spell slots per day from which to cast them. So I would have to conclude that that wizard is probably still T2. (I mean, would you say that a sorcerer with that spell selection plus whatever other spells he chooses is T1?)

I don't think it's fair to say that all T1s are better than all T2s. Given the power of the sorc/wiz spell list (and all the kobold cheese), I think an argument could be made that sorcerers are actually stronger than clerics and druids. They can't break the game in all ways, but the way in which they choose to break the game will be better (and maybe even faster) than any that a cleric or druid can access.

[ryu]

I don't think it's fair to say that all T1s are better than all T2s. Given the power of the sorc/wiz spell list (and all the kobold cheese), I think an argument could be made that sorcerers are actually stronger than clerics and druids. They can't break the game in all ways, but the way in which they choose to break the game will be better (and maybe even faster) than any that a cleric or druid can access.

I mean... Clerics have native methods of accessing huge swaths of the wizard's list, most notably domains, and druids are fiercely competitive if not generally considered superior to wizards at low levels starting to look equal again at around 10 or so with the druid not well and truly outpaced for a few levels.

[Zancloufer]

It's worth noting that a Wizard that had only 2 spells per level up + their starting spells would known 38 spells from levels 1-9 vs the Sorcerer's 34 spells. The Wizard would technically know more level 0 spells (All vs 9) but I seriously doubt there is more than 9 level 0 spells that are really worth using.

You would probably have more level 7+ spells known, but on the flip side less spells per day and had to choose what spells you cast ahead of time. Assuming you are no allowed to develop your own spells I would argue Wizard for almost Tier 2. Slightly more spells know (mostly at the top levels) but it's not big enough of a gap to justify having to choose prepared spells everyday and having less castings of them.

[ryu]

It's worth noting that a Wizard that had only 2 spells per level up + their starting spells would known 38 spells from levels 1-9 vs the Sorcerer's 34 spells. The Wizard would technically know more level 0 spells (All vs 9) but I seriously doubt there is more than 9 level 0 spells that are really worth using.

You would probably have more level 7+ spells known, but on the flip side less spells per day and had to choose what spells you cast ahead of time. Assuming you are no allowed to develop your own spells I would argue Wizard for almost Tier 2. Slightly more spells know (mostly at the top levels) but it's not big enough of a gap to justify having to choose prepared spells everyday and having less castings of them.

There are feats to get around that whole not spontaneous thing entirely, and even not increasing spells known you still get access to your spells one level sooner than the sorcerer at all times. You also have significantly higher variety for what to use in your highest level slots when the sorcerer actually catches back up to your spell level on evens.

[icefractal]

Do keep in mind the sorcerer would still be getting his spells a level later. Is it a bad enough hurtle that you can't design a sorcerer better than flicker made? Probably not, but it's not to be dismissed during leveling by any stretch.With that list, the Wizard would have an even worse time going level by level. Command Undead at 3rd, but no way to make those zombies until 7th.

[ryu]

With that list, the Wizard would have an even worse time going level by level. Command Undead at 3rd, but no way to make those zombies until 7th.

Yeah it hurts early, but I'm pretty convinced the advantage of earlier progression crops up much harder in the mid/late levels. Besides you still have automatic activation on any wizard spell items, and possibly trading out your familiar for a half progression animal companion to help with the low levels.

[Segev]

There's also K:Religion to help you hunt down potential free-range skeletons and zombies.

A necromancer build I really want to try uses Precocious Apprentice for command undead at first level, and hunts down 1-4 Slaymates to charm with that spell. It's a specific quest he goes on, using K:Religion and whatever Gather Information he can muster between himself and any fellow party members he might have. He plans to get Chain Spell and Extend Spell so that he soon will be able to use extended chain command undead on small hordes of mindless undead out of a 2nd level spell slot (thanks to the overlapping Pale Auras of his Slaymates).

[Flickerdart]

With that list, the Wizard would have an even worse time going level by level. Command Undead at 3rd, but no way to make those zombies until 7th.

It's not like zombies are particularly uncommon. Go to a graveyard, pay for a casting of animate dead.

[ryu]

There's also K:Religion to help you hunt down potential free-range skeletons and zombies.

A necromancer build I really want to try uses Precocious Apprentice for command undead at first level, and hunts down 1-4 Slaymates to charm with that spell. It's a specific quest he goes on, using K:Religion and whatever Gather Information he can muster between himself and any fellow party members he might have. He plans to get Chain Spell and Extend Spell so that he soon will be able to use extended chain command undead on small hordes of mindless undead out of a 2nd level spell slot (thanks to the overlapping Pale Auras of his Slaymates).

Is... Is it wrong that I'm now imagining a wizard Steve Irwin crocodile hunter expy? And I'm pretty sure having said that at least one of us is morally obligated to do this?

[Segev]

Is... Is it wrong that I'm now imagining a wizard Steve Irwin crocodile hunter expy? And I'm pretty sure having said that at least one of us is morally obligated to do this?

Not at all, and knock yourself out!

I have two personalities I could use with this build. One is my signature character, who is a minionmancer extraordinaire. The other is more tailored to the Slaymates as integral to his concept, rather than purely as tools, as the first one is actually his own younger sibling, who died of neglect after he ran away from their not-so-great parents. The necromancer PC came back and found his little brother's grave, open, and came across the slaymate. Fortunately, he IS already trained in necromancy, so was able to charm the kid-undead. He "adopts" more later.

Segev, the signature character, wouldn't be above arranging for poverty-stricken parents who were going to have to consider such actions anyway to deliberately pull a Hansel and Gretel with one or more, and pay them for the knowledge of where the kids were left so he could see if any spontaneously arose (because, at level 1, he's not going to be able to create undead, assuming that's even a valid use for it since they're not on the standard list). Needless to say, Seg is an evil person. (Mind, if he could find some without "arranging" them, he would; he takes no delight in others' suffering. And it's expensive.)