Belkar is a genious!!

[Hiest, monkey]

Well no not really.

But as people have been saying, far as I know, he has as low int as wisdom. I believe V said that also.

But Belkar has good thinking skills, and as an example, when haley paniced that roy's body was eaten in comic 474 panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), Belkar noted that then his armor would still be there.

While he has very low wisdom, and don't give me that 9 wisdom score because of owl's wisdom etc. etc., the plot did that as a joke and so there really wasn't any way to raise wisdom scores more that 4 points at the time, I think he has average int.

I dunno I've just seen his actions be more of a low wis than low int descisions.

If you have more examples or counter-arguments please post here.

[Advance Strat..]

Well no not really.

But as people have been saying, far as I know, he has as low int as wisdom. I believe V said that also.

But Belkar has good thinking skills, and as an example, when haley paniced hat roy's body was eaten in 474, panel 4(?), Belkar noted that then his armor would still be there.

While he has very low wisdom, and don't give me that 9 wisdom score because of owl's wisdom etc. etc., the plot did that as a joke and so there really wasn't any way to raise wisdom scores more that 4 points at the time, I think he has average int.

I dunno I've just seen his actoins be more of a low wis than low int descisions.

Also if somone could pm me how to link things to strips without typing out the adress, well if it's fairly simple at least. I'll delete this part of the post if somone does.

ok when you have something you wanna quote like so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) here's what you do.

first, copy the shortcut you wanna do.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html in this case.

then type out the words you wanna have the link in

like so

then highlight the words, and in the weird task bar thing in where you type your post, there should be something that looks like earth holding a paperclip. click that, and it'll ask for the link. Put the link in, and it'll add the link into those words you highlighted.

like so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html)

[Chronos]

My favorite piece of evidence here is the mind flayer squid thingy. The squid thingy judges a brain-meal based on a combination of all three of the character's mental ability scores. And while Belkar, a taco, isn't nearly as tasty as Vaarsuvius' hamburger or Roy's turkey dinner, he's a heck of a lot better than Elan's Diet Coke. And we know that Elan has one really good mental ability score (his 18 Cha). But Belkar's mental ability scores are, overall, better than Elan's. We know that Belkar has a penalty to Wis and Cha (I won't argue here about exactly how much of a penalty, but we can agree he has one), so his Int has to be at least decent, or the squid-thingy wouldn't have even considered him.

[Hiest, monkey]

heh, squid thingy

But as Tim Buckley once said, when you post a comic once it's in the archives forever.

I 've learned not to judge too much on older comics, as then the Giant was not aware of future plots and made a few inconsitencies that we are noticing now. So while yes it is beter than Diet coke, that may not be a valid argument

but damned if it ain't funny!

[Gundato]

The thing is though, how do you pick and choose which comics matter and which don't? Once you say that one doesn't matter (usually because it doesn't support the argument at hand), theoretically the only ones that matter are those directly related to the current comic. And when people are making asinine and overly-complex theories, that ship don't sail :p

[Impikmin]

Jeez guys, you have no confidence in Belkar!! He obviously has been trying to get smarter and secretly raising his int. If he raised his int, then he could be more focused on killing people than thinking "If I was smarter, could I have hurt that person in a more interesting way?" all the time. Haw haw! I solved everyone's problems! It all makes sense =P

Don't question this flawless logic or I will eat you:smallannoyed:

[mockingbyrd7]

I've always thought that Belkar was very intelligent if he applied himself at all, but he doesn't because of his horrible wisdom. I consider him somewhere around 14 to 16 intelligence, 6 or 7 wisdom, and 10 charisma.

Geez, if Elan's charisma is 18, how stupid IS he?! Haha

[holywhippet]

Jeez guys, you have no confidence in Belkar!! He obviously has been trying to get smarter and secretly raising his int. If he raised his int, then he could be more focused on killing people than thinking "If I was smarter, could I have hurt that person in a more interesting way?" all the time. Haw haw! I solved everyone's problems! It all makes sense =P

Don't question this flawless logic or I will eat you:smallannoyed:

IIRC, you only get one stat increase every four levels in edition 3.5. So Belkar would have had one, maybe two opportunities. If I was in his position I would have taken the weapon finesse feat and be increasing dexterity as it would be giving both an AC and attack bonus.

Realising that Roy's armour should have still been there wouldn't have required a particularly high INT stat so I think you can give Belkar a pass for that. Haley would have realised it too if she wasn't trying to come up with reasons as to why Roy is missing.

A better example of Belkar showing brain power is ripping off the head of the EoFaF to use as a sentient wand. The average PCs response would be to just kill it. Also, Belkar's inner dilemma as to whether to stop Hinjo's assassination shows brainpower if you accept that his "consciences" represent his thought processes rather than being external entities.

[sparkey477]

heh, squid thingy

But as Tim Buckley once said, when you post a comic once it's in the archives forever. What if the squid thingy comes back? I can just immagine him and his teenage son playing "Toss the mentos" with Elan:smallamused:

[Siwenna]

I think Belkar is pretty smart. His charisma is horrible (hence the "too angry" comment), his wisdom is even worse (I think it's 4-6, the Owl's Wisdom thing was just a case of humor coming before rules.) He can be creative and very cunning when he wants to, but most of the time he doesn't care.


Geez, if Elan's charisma is 18, how stupid IS he?! Haha

I think his wisdom is really low as well. After all, Vaarsuvius has 18 INT, low charisma, and average or so wisdom and the mindflayer thought she looked good. Poor Elan, though. He has about average strength, dexterity, and constitution and awful intelligence and wisdom. He really needed that Dashing Swordsman prestige class.

[Chronos]

Poor Elan, though. He has about average strength, dexterity, and constitution and awful intelligence and wisdom. He really needed that Dashing Swordsman prestige class.I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions about any of Elan's physical scores. I mean, he's probably not as strong as Roy or as dexterous as Haley, but he could still be above-average.

[Oberon]

Jeez guys, you have no confidence in Belkar!! He obviously has been trying to get smarter and secretly raising his int. If he raised his int, then he could be more focused on killing people than thinking "If I was smarter, could I have hurt that person in a more interesting way?" all the time. Haw haw! I solved everyone's problems! It all makes sense =P

Don't question this flawless logic or I will eat you:smallannoyed:

But to come up with a plan like that, he'd need a decent.. Int score!

But seriously, Belkar's int is probably fairly good, as he is able to formulate plans (although they don't always work out, ie trying to make Miko fall, due to his lack of foresight caused by a low wisdom) and to analyze facts that will contribute to the Greater Belkar. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html)

[the mysterian]

how about belkar just made a logic check where haley failed?

[ImpFireball]

I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions about any of Elan's physical scores. I mean, he's probably not as strong as Roy or as dexterous as Haley, but he could still be above-average.

He's a skinny little dude, but isn't afraid to wave a sword (probably due to his far too much confidence and average strength). His health aint that great, yet his dexterity hasn't been accounted for.

But seriously, if you want your character to have something like 18 strength, he's GOTTA be 260 pounds all muscle at least. Some people like to be fake though and say a skinny guy could really be strong and you just don't notice it because of body proportion, muscle distribution; whatever else. But when you get into the 18 strength nether regions, they're ALWAYS big, otherwise they couldn't possibly be human.

Stick animation doesn't account for muscle definition obviously, but I imagine Roy's pretty big for his apparent strength. It wasn't only his armor that made him heavy. Just the fact that he's your typical big black guy (but without the personality of Terry Tate). :D

Sorry, it's just that I keep seeing people giving light characters absurd strength scores. >_>

And jeeze guys, Rich doesn't have anything to back up Belkar being all out stupid. His wisdom is low, so he's simply less AWARE in pretty much every mental avenue (kinda like your annoying employer dude who made it due to his marks, but is still ignorant and arrogant to the point of all out frustration).

Elan doesn't really seem all that ignorant, though. He has the sense to compliment Haley, and he has the sense to realize that certain things are wrong or unusual and that certain things are right. But just the fact that he hasn't layed out a set of morals or general beliefs for him or others to go by might give him say, a slightly below average wisdom score. I can't imagine him writing a book on any of this either (and not only due to his incredible lack of memory, unless called upon by the author to recite past plot events); hence, rather low wisdom. But not REALLY low.

Elan is never too aware of his surroundings or social nuances, either I might add. -_-

As for what pretty much made him who he is...

His high charisma gives him:
- The fair voice of a pretty boy (how I imagined him from the very beginning), rather then (impossibly) the loud 'durr' of a retard :P
- Handsome looks
- Attention by the way he composes himself (somehow without realizing it... this might seem totally unrealistic, but then again, blame DnD guys)
- WAY too much confidence
- Natural social 'skills' and the ability to allow others to listen to him (whether by composure or the fact that his friends feel the need to listen to his stupidity, either out of ironic humor at his folly, or desperation)
- The general image of 'perfection'

So the moral of the story is that mental stats really do happen to help define your character's personality!

[ag30476]

I dunno I've just seen his actions be more of a low wis than low int descisions.

He...alignment, ability scores...the bait never changes.

Belkar is clever...that doesn't necessarily equate to a high int score. You can play an animal as 'clever'. Conversely you could play high int, high wis loremaster that walks into ditches while reading a book.

[Fitzclowningham]

I've seen some relatively small guys who were insanely strong. One I remember was average height, medium build, who, in one motion, raised up a barstool containing a 180-lb. woman overhead at arm's length. Needless to say, everyone else in the bar was gobsmacked. Well, except for the occupant of the stool, who was screaming uncontrollably until returned to terra firma. The guy put together marble floors for a living, so he did plenty of lifting, but he wasn't that big.

[Demented]

Belkar is clever...that doesn't necessarily equate to a high int score. You can play an animal as 'clever'. Conversely you could play high int, high wis loremaster that walks into ditches while reading a book.

You can play a low Wis, low Int druid as the the renaissance invention-master puzzle-solving genius of his time. The question is, are you playing the same person as your character's stats apply to?

If Belkar is, then his stats include a decent Int.

[the_tick_rules]

also i doubt the giant really writes his characters personalities according to their ability scores.

[kpenguin]

also i doubt the giant really writes his characters personalities according to their ability scores.

True, but he could assign ability scores based on personality. I believe that he's already said that V has a low charisma score because V has a tendency to prattle and brag about V's magical power.

[Oberon]

One argumentary point: The only characters in the whole OOTs who seem to think Belkar is stupid are V, who has a rivalry going with Belkar and hence will insult him in any way, and occaisionally Roy, who gets angry when Belkar doesn't understand that he wants Belkar to track, or when he learns Belkar didn;t put any ranks into survival. Chalk the Roy examples up to low wisdom on account of unawareness and not thinking ahead, and V is the only one questioning Belkar's int score.

[Clove]

Actually, just a couple strips ago Belkar mentions that he has Craft Gourmet Cooking, but also has an ability score penalty on top of the circumstance penalty.

So I think that summarily states that his Int can't be higher than an eight. He doesn't actually say how big his penalty is.

Int might be narrowly defined though. Belkar does seem to have a creative spark. His creative ability always shows when it is relevant to killing. So you could say he gets a huge circumstance bonus to Intelligence checks anytime wanton destruction or killing is on the line.

[Oberon]

Actually, just a couple strips ago Belkar mentions that he has Craft Gourmet Cooking, but also has an ability score penalty on top of the circumstance penalty.

So I think that summarily states that his Int can't be higher than an eight. He doesn't actually say how big his penalty is.

Int might be narrowly defined though. Belkar does seem to have a creative spark. His creative ability always shows when it is relevant to killing. So you could say he gets a huge circumstance bonus to Intelligence checks anytime wanton destruction or killing is on the line.


Craft is an int based skill, but he actually has ranks in Profession(gourmet chef). Profession is WIS based.

Edit: Also, an ability score of 9 is still a penalty

[Megatron]

I'd say that while Belkar's wisdom is probably no higher than 7-8 (and charisma is probably in the same range), his intelligence could be as high as 11 - no bonus but definitely no penalty.

[ag30476]

You can play a low Wis, low Int druid as the the renaissance invention-master puzzle-solving genius of his time.

See that would be bad role-playing. You can play a low Wis, low Int druid that can't be surprised and can showup those survivor guys on the Discovery channel. This guy would be clever in the forest.

And you can play a high int, high wis wizard who has memorized the taxanomy of plants in all planes of existence but who can't live for 5 minutes outside his lab and regularly gets ambushed by coat racks. He can beat you at chess but he can't outsmart the sly rogue.

It depends on you skill points. But more importantly these roles are archetypes, the bookish wizard and the wiley woodsman. Of course you can have a bookish druid and a wizard who loves the outdoors. These would just assign skill points different.

The point is not to role-play not roll-play, not even your ability scores. Remember ability scores are abstract numbers that are supposed to combine a lot of traits. Animals have high wisdom not because they are pious but because they are alert - or at least the designers don't animal spot, listen and will saves to totally suck.

If your int score is low, that does not mean you shouldn't come up with ideas, just not magical ideas like E=mc^2. If you're wisdom is low, you might fail a lot of will saves and sense motive checks but this does not mean that you follow every simple suggestion. If a low int barbarian gets told he needs a bath, does he do as ordered or does he throw the speaker in the nearest lake?

Who charges first into meelee against the BBEG, the low int, low wis fighter or the high int, high wis cleric. Depends on the character no?



The question is, are you playing the same person as your character's stats apply to?

If Belkar is, then his stats include a decent Int.
Belkar does not necessarily have to have high int to come up with clever ideas or have a quick wit. Other evidence would indicate that Belkar is not the sharpest tool in the shed in all circumstances. He probly has a no modifier to int but a -2 into wis ("ability score penalty").

[ag30476]

Int might be narrowly defined though. Belkar does seem to have a creative spark. His creative ability always shows when it is relevant to killing. So you could say he gets a huge circumstance bonus to Intelligence checks anytime wanton destruction or killing is on the line.
No the problem is that Int and all ability score are too broadly defined. With only 6 numbers to describe each character physically and mentally, each number has to acount for a lot. For ex, strength measures lifting capacity and explosive power among other things. And Int measures the ability to learn all areas of study.

The broadness of the ability scores is not really a problem tho. Every game has to strike a balance between detail and ease of play.

[Oberon]

See that would be bad role-playing. You can play a low Wis, low Int druid that can't be surprised and can showup those survivor guys on the Discovery channel. This guy would be clever in the forest."
I think the fact that its bad roleplaying was his point.



And you can play a high int, high wis wizard who has memorized the taxanomy of plants in all planes of existence but who can't live for 5 minutes outside his lab and regularly gets ambushed by coat racks. He can beat you at chess but he can't outsmart the sly rogue
All in all, this sounds a lot more like a high int, low wis character, thus playing into the whole "absent-minded professor" archetype (if you consider a wizard the fantasy equivalent of a scientist). A brilliant mind, but naive and clumsy because he doesn't notice things.



It depends on you skill points. But more importantly these roles are archetypes, the bookish wizard and the wiley woodsman. Of course you can have a bookish druid and a wizard who loves the outdoors. These would just assign skill points different.
Abilities are general, skills are specific. Skills represent individual, praticed things that the character has learned to do well. Let's use Craft as an example. An unintelligent character who is still good at making weapons has overcome his innately low int score by practicing weaponcrafting until it became second nature (rrepresented by having many skill points in craft(whatever weapon)). A character with a high intelligence gets a natural bonus to crafting due to logically figuring out how the weapons might go together. However, if he has not been taught as well or not praticed as much, he will have fewer skill points in the crafting skill and thus not be as good as the experienced idoit. Now if the smart character gains equal skill points to the other, then he will have had as much experience AND have an innate understanding of how materials combine to make a product and thus will be better at making weapons. The stupid character needs to spend more skill points to reach a certain level of expertese because its that much harder for him to learn in the first place. Just as a strong character would find it easier to learn how to climb than a weak one, because it's easier for him to hold up his own weight, whereas the weak one needs to try that much harder or learn by other means. But the weak character could have practiced climbing on ropes and walls and know the perils and pitfalls better than a strong character who never climbed before.




Who charges first into meelee against the BBEG, the low int, low wis fighter or the high int, high wis cleric. Depends on the character no?


The only reasons a high wis char would rush recklessly into battle before a low wis one are if the high wis character was desperate, brave, or had a momentary lapse in wisdom, or if the low wis character was confused or a coward. If everything is going smoothly and both characters are equal in terms of bravery, the low wis character is much more likely to do this.

Thus, I disagree with almost everything you said. Maybe I'm just more strict on the meaning of ability scores.

[Hiest, monkey]

Int might be narrowly defined though. Belkar does seem to have a creative spark. His creative ability always shows when it is relevant to killing. So you could say he gets a huge circumstance bonus to Intelligence checks anytime wanton destruction or killing is on the line.

I like that reasoning, I might consider doing hat in my campaigns, sort of like how our barmaid backstory character gets +2 to b*tch slap, (but she has Profession: Barmaid, Belkar doesn't have Profession: Wanton Killer)

[Chronos]

But seriously, if you want your character to have something like 18 strength, he's GOTTA be 260 pounds all muscle at least. Some people like to be fake though and say a skinny guy could really be strong and you just don't notice it because of body proportion, muscle distribution; whatever else. But when you get into the 18 strength nether regions, they're ALWAYS big, otherwise they couldn't possibly be human.OK, so Elan doesn't have an 18 strength. I don't think anyone ever said he did. But he could have, say, a 14 (which is still pretty good). There's just no basis for saying that his physical ability scores are poor, or even mediocre.

And Belkar's int doesn't apply only to wanton killing. It applies to whatever he wants. It's just that what he wants is usually wanton killing. But he's also the guy who got the idea to serve a paladin with a restraining order, and he's the only one who remembered the range limit on his Mark of Justice. Both of those served his interests, but they didn't directly lead to any killing.

[ag30476]

I think the fact that its bad roleplaying was his point.

Yes but he equate role-playing with roll-playing which is bad role-playing unless you want to play it that way.






All in all, this sounds a lot more like a high int, low wis character, thus playing into the whole "absent-minded professor" archetype (if you consider a wizard the fantasy equivalent of a scientist). A brilliant mind, but naive and clumsy because he doesn't notice things.



Huh? Why straightjacket the character that way. I want my loremaster to have high sense motive and will saves. Maybe he takes levels of cleric and mystic theurge. He won't be charmed by Sabine but she can pick his pocket. Why does he need a low wis score? That's the point. Wisdom does not determine how well he performs in an abush. Sure a +2 on spot might help at low levels but after a few levels it doesn't compare to what the rogue with the wisdom penalty can do in the same skill.






Abilities are general, skills are specific. Skills represent individual, praticed things that the character has learned to do well. Let's use Craft as an example. An unintelligent character who is still good at making weapons has overcome his innately low int score by practicing weaponcrafting until it became second nature (rrepresented by having many skill points in craft(whatever weapon)). A character with a high intelligence gets a natural bonus to crafting due to logically figuring out how they might go together. However, if he has not been taught as well or not praticed as much, he will have fewer skill points in the crafting skill and thus not be as good as the experienced idoit. Now if the smart character gains equal skill points to the other, then he will have had as much experience AND have an innate understanding of how materials combine to make a product and thus will be better at making weapons. The stupid character needs to spend more skill points to reach a certain level of expertese because its that much harder for him to learn in the first place. Just as a strong character would find it easier to learn how to climb than a weak one, because it's easier for him to hold up his owm weight, whereas the weak one needs to learn by other means.




Exactly. Then you agree. Ability scores don't determine character. A low int char can be a good at crafting a clockwork and a high int char can be all thumbs.



And more to the point. Belkar can be clever in a one on one fight and still not be the one who comes up with party strategy. He can make a quick witted come back but he doesn't think things through. Contradictory? No. It's just his character.

[ag30476]

But seriously, if you want your character to have something like 18 strength, he's GOTTA be 260 pounds all muscle at least.

Tell that to my 18 Str raging barbarian princess chainmail bikini wearing topless goddess of war.

[fangthane]

Tell that to my 18 Str raging barbarian princess chainmail bikini wearing topless goddess of war.

Aren't these mutually exclusive?

On a somewhat related note, however... Thank you. :smallbiggrin:

[ag30476]

Aren't these mutually exclusive?

Not always



On a somewhat related note, however... Thank you. :smallbiggrin:


Google is your friend...he he "chainmail bikini"

[Oberon]

Huh? Why straightjacket the character that way. I want my loremaster to have high sense motive and will saves. Maybe he takes levels of cleric and mystic theurge. He won't be charmed by Sabine but she can pick his pocket. Why does he need a low wis score? That's the point. Wisdom does not determine how well he performs in an abush. Sure a +2 on spot might help at low levels but after a few levels it doesn't compare to what the rogue with the wisdom penalty can do in the same skill.

But the example you gave only seemed to support a High Int: First was he "memorized the taxonomy of plants in all planes." That would be related to Knowlage, an INT based skill. Second was he could "beat you in chess." Chess is a purely logical game, and a character's logical Faculties are represented by his INT score. If you wanted him to be naive or unaware in a social context, that could be represented by lower CHA. If he is simply clumsy, that could be low DEX. But if he is totally unaware of his surroundings, that would be a low WIS, but more skill points in those certain areas where he is wise, ie he could have ranks in heal, because he knows what kind of treaments are suitable for what kinds of injuries. A loremaster generally WOULD be a wise character because he would have an innate understanding of the world and what would be the best action in a given situation. Someone who simply reads books all day is generally represented by a high int and avereage or mediocre other mental stats. You could express all of these in different ways, but the ways I've presented make the most sense and line up with the rulebook descriptions of the stats the most.

My point about skills and Abilities was that Skills are certain things that a character has specifically worked on to improve (unless they have no ranks, in which case they have to try to use it "untrained" ie, they haven't practiced". But the mental abilites represent all mental faculties, including presonality (The physical stats simply represent the characters body). Ture each person manifest a high or low score in a certain ability in their own way, making the personalities unique, but wht they are capable of while untrained relatively the same.


Tell that to my 18 Str raging barbarian princess chainmail bikini wearing topless goddess of war.

If she's wearing a chainmail Bikini, how is she topless? :confused: Is she an exhibitionist, or does she just wear the bottoms, thus making it more like "chainmail panties"?

Edit: Whoops, didn't notice second page... seems like someone already covered this. I guess I'll have to thank you as well.:smallsmile:

[ag30476]

If you wanted him to be naive or unaware in a social context, that could be represented by lower CHA.

No. Cha would give him the power to influence others. Wisdom lets you resist such social influences by Sense Motive or Will saves. This is techically part of the game. How you play you character cannot be based on such situations cannot be based on just 2 stats - or even all stats in the game. Suppose your character has high WIS and low CHA and a succubus tries to Bluff him (a social context). Does he resist because he is:
1) Get's divine inspiration to see through the ruse
2) Uses hypersensitive senses to tell it's a ruse
3) Is so at one-with-self that he cannot be fooled by the ruse
4) Is so stubborn that he can't be bluffed

The two stats can't tell you that. Neither can character class or anything else because that's role-playing, flavor, fluff if you will.



But if he is totally unaware of his surroundings, that would be a low WIS, but more skill points in those certain areas where he is wise, ie he could have ranks in heal, because he knows what kind of treaments are suitable for what kinds of injuries.

No. To quote the SRD "Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition." According to you, because the score is a catch all, the higher your wisdom, the higher you have to be in each of these. And you argue that that is more "realistic", that it's impossible for someone to have a high willpower but a low common sense or to have good senses but low social or spiritual intuition. That is, you are saying every character with a WIS of 18 is equally good at willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. The cleric with a WIS 18 is equally good at willpower (not Concentration) as the rogue with a WIS 18. And according to you it would make no sense to play a WIS 18 cleric or monk that could not help throwing himself at every female he met like numerous archetypal asian monk-ish/cleric-y heros because his willpower was just that high.



A loremaster generally WOULD be a wise character because he would have an innate understanding of the world and what would be the best action in a given situation.

No. A loremaster is an can be played as an academic scholar who does not have an innate understanding of the world but a bookish one or he can be played as someone who has an innate but not bookish misunderstanding of the world. Why? Cause that's fluff. It's not anywhere in the description what this knowledge is or where it comes from. But you argue that the sorcerer/loremaster must have an innate understanding of the world and so must the bard/loremaster - the bard/loremaster can't get his knowledge from oral lore. Similarly the wizard/loremaster can't get his knowledge from books or the cleric/loremaster get his knowledge from divine sources, nor can the druid/loremaster get his from nature spirits. And they all should have high WIS even though the bard, sorcerer and wizard characters don't need high WIS.



My point about skills and Abilities was that Skills are certain things that a character has specifically worked on to improve (unless they have no ranks, in which case they have to try to use it "untrained" ie, they haven't practiced".

Yes



But the mental abilites represent all mental faculties, including presonality (The physical stats simply represent the characters body).

No. Mental stats are not personality. They are just that. Abstract stats to play a game. For ex, Xykon is smart...he just chooses not to be most of the time because he is THAT powerful.



If she's wearing a chainmail Bikini, how is she topless?

She doesn't start out topless...



Is she an exhibitionist, or does she just wear the bottoms, thus making it more like "chainmail panties"?

I'm picturing more going into a rage and then the bulging muscles pop the top off...hilarity and mayhem ensues...

[Chronos]

Tell that to my 18 Str raging barbarian princess chainmail bikini wearing topless goddess of war.Sure, if you introduce me to her.

And while roll-playing is not synonymous with roleplaying, the rolls are a part of the role. Neglecting the stats in your roleplaying is just as bad as neglecting neglecting the character's background or description. If you want to play a know-it-all who's absentminded and walks into walls from not paying attention, then the character you want to play has high Int and low Wis, and his stats should reflect that. The ability scores are there for a reason.

[ag30476]

Sure, if you introduce me to her.

Roll your Diplomacy check...she's not looking too happy...you wouldn't want to see her when she's angry....or would you?



And while roll-playing is not synonymous with roleplaying, the rolls are a part of the role. Neglecting the stats in your roleplaying is just as bad as neglecting neglecting the character's background or description.

Of course. That's why I said before that if you have a low INT you shouldn't be the one coming up with magical spells or mechanical inventions or war strategies. But with moderate or even low INT you can come up with a quick joke or you think quickly on your feet by say pinning your dead friend on the wall through the sensitive spots. You're not playing out of character by making clever use of your abilities if you have low INT. Similarly, an animal opponent can be played by the DM as "clever" if it makes use of it abilities and terrain well and that would not be out of character for the animal or the adventure.



If you want to play a know-it-all who's absentminded and walks into walls from not paying attention, then the character you want to play has high Int and low Wis, and his stats should reflect that.

But what if he is a cloistered clerical know it all loremaster - oh wait we can't have that.



The ability scores are there for a reason.
Yes to let you play a game by rules and rolling dice so you can role-play.

[DreadSpoon]

D&D stats == abstract concepts. High STR does NOT mean that you have bulging muscles, necessarily. It's entirely possible to play a character much like me - lots of muscle, bad back. A lot of STR related tasks I can't do worth a crap, like climbing or carrying heavy things, but I CAN hit very hard with a sword... but only because I know HOW to hit hard with a sword. My thin-as-a-rail room mate can hit equally hard, and he has no muscle to speak of.

STR is abstract. You can make a high STR character and choose to make him bad at certain skill checks (by taking no ranks) and refusing to perform certain actions (like carrying heavy loads).

The same goes for all the other stats. Each of them represents a HUGE number of different things about a character, and a high score does not necessarily need to represent that the character is good at all of those things.

D&D makes this hard to grasp at times because it is stuffed to the brim with numbers and stats and tables and specifics and people constantly lose sight of the fact that almost everything in D&D is very, very abstract. Hit points do not represent physical damage, damage rolls do not represent the strength of a hit, ability scores do not represent absolute ability, etc. Compare to a system like Tri-Stat (not the best system, but useful for illustration), where there are three primary ability scores: Physical, Mental, and Soul. The abstract nature of the system becomes very clear.

[Invisible Queen]

But seriously, if you want your character to have something like 18 strength, he's GOTTA be 260 pounds all muscle at least.
Bruce Lee weighed 165 pounds. How much Str would you say he had? :)

[Chronos]

But what if he is a cloistered clerical know it all loremaster - oh wait we can't have that.Sure you can. He just won't be walking into walls. And if Int is reserved for magical knowledge, then nobody in the real world would ever need it. Saying that "A character with low Int can still come up with clever ideas" is like saying "A character with low Str can still batter down doors". Occasionally, maybe, but not very often, certainly not as often as a character with a high ability score. And while an animal can be "cunning", that's by comparison with other animals. Humans are more cunning.


Bruce Lee weighed 165 pounds. How much Str would you say he had? :)I dunno, but he had a great BAB and Power Attack.