Need help with a trouble PC (Dread Necromancer)

[Maximum Carnage]

I recently started a game of 3.5, and a friend I play with a lot is very keen on min/maxing (optimization.) He has made a Dread Necromancer, and to my untrained eyes, this just seems like a lot of fun for the player, but a headache for the DM.

"Oh you charge at me? Fear Aura."
"Ranger in the distance? Blinded."
"Wow that's a lot of enemies, I summon 1d10 x caster lvl worth of undead minions"

Excuse my french, but this seems like downright horse ****. He plays it to a T, and there's no rules recourse I can take as he is well versed in the system too. So I know he plays it correctly.

I was just wondering, how do I keep this game fresh without singling him out in encounters or making every dungeon have fear wards? I'm not going to tell him he can't play the character, because it's his favorite character to date, and it would probably turn him off of playing with me. I just need a hand making some interesting encounters where he can't bully the whole battlefield.

Thanks for the help in advance,
MC

[Inevitability]

Is the 1d10*CL thing an exaggeration? Because I'm fairly sure that's not a thing dread necromancers can actually do.

[Venger]

I recently started a game of 3.5, and a friend I play with a lot is very keen on min/maxing (optimization.) He has made a Dread Necromancer, and to my untrained eyes, this just seems like a lot of fun for the player, but a headache for the DM.

"Oh you charge at me? Fear Aura."
"Ranger in the distance? Blinded."
"Wow that's a lot of enemies, I summon 1d10 x caster lvl worth of undead minions"

Excuse my french, but this seems like downright horse ****. He plays it to a T, and there's no rules recourse I can take as he is well versed in the system too. So I know he plays it correctly.

I was just wondering, how do I keep this game fresh without singling him out in encounters or making every dungeon have fear wards? I'm not going to tell him he can't play the character, because it's his favorite character to date, and it would probably turn him off of playing with me. I just need a hand making some interesting encounters where he can't bully the whole battlefield.

Thanks for the help in advance,
MC
None of those things are actually true. Since you admit you're unfamiliar with DN, check out the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook) will help acquaint you with the basics.

dread necromancer is a middling/high t3 class. it's not very strong and is pretty good in its overly specialized area. no one is breaking any campaigns by playing dread necromancer.


Is the 1d10*CL thing an exaggeration? Because I'm fairly sure that's not a thing dread necromancers can actually do.
Yes it is. dread necromancer can't do that.

[PacMan2247]

Is the 1d10*CL thing an exaggeration? Because I'm fairly sure that's not a thing dread necromancers can actually do.

So yeah, there's this, for starters.

For the other points you raise, there are things worth keeping in mind:

A DN's fear aura is a 5-foot radius that the character radiates as a free action. Nothing in the description says that it's continuous once activated, though saying it would be is still a reasonable RAI interpretation. A character that fails a Will save against the aura is shaken (-2 to attack rolls, saves, skill checks, and ability checks); hindering, but not crippling. A character that makes its save is immune for 24 hours.

Assuming blindness/deafness is what we're talking about with the "ranger in the distance", the spell has a medium range (100 ft + 10ft/level), so it's the sort of thing that could be happening. A Fortitude save negates the spell, so that one comes down to the dice; a ranger should have a decent shot at the save. Still, that's the sort of thing that starts getting noticed unless everyone involved is either with the DN or killed without witnesses, and a lot of players forget that their actions have consequences until the DM brings it home to them. Creatures with levels in PC classes tend to have friends and allies to either protect them and help with escape, or avenge them if necessary. For something like this specific case, maybe a druid gets wind of it and brings in a few swarms of bats to address the issue; it's in line with the two classes relative to each other and with the druid specifically because of the undead.

I'm certainly not advocating planning encounters meant to shut down a particular PC, but knowing the limits of what your PCs can do and reminding them of those limits is good gameplay.

[BananaNomNom]

Wow that's a lot of enemies, I summon 1d10 x caster lvl worth of undead minions

You may be Referring to a older form of summon undead, The one I found in HoH is summon x undead of this level x undead of a lower level and x of a even lower level. a great way to counter a Dread Necromancer is to have mindless creatures (constructs oh the bane of my Life (#DreadNecroForLife)). or to have encounters where his undead do not reach, But keep in mind dread necro is not that "powerful".

[ShaneMRoth]

He plays it to a T, and there's no rules recourse I can take as he is well versed in the system too. So I know he plays it correctly.



I think I found your problem.

You are enforcing your Power Gamer's interpretation of the rules. You are supposed to be enforcing your interpretation.

A Power Gamer is not a reliable judge of where to set a reasonable limit on rules.

Power Gamers are prone to cherry picking rules, selectively forgetting those rules that might limit their characters' power.

When a power gamer sets your boundaries you get the Diplomancer, the Jumplomancer, and Pun-Pun.

I recommend a thorough and comprehensive review of the Dread Necromancer power set. Then independently determine how those rules function in your setting. Don't come up with a counter-argument. You enjoy the presumption of correctness when adjudicating the rules. It is the power gamer's burden to persuade you, not the other way around.

Just find a workable limit to the characters's power set... write it down... and enforce that limit at the table.

Announce this new adjudication at the beginning of the game session.

Call it a house rule, it will be easier that way.

Add the word "NO" to your spoken vocabulary at the table. GMs are conditioned to avoid saying NO. Power gamers exploit this tendency. They need to hear NO (and an unconditional NO, at that) from time to time.

The Power Gamer will not be pleased. He will accuse you of moving the goalposts. That's because you will be moving the goalposts... away from the position that the Power Gamer placed them. Move them anyway.

Expect push-back. The Power Gamer's expectations are deeply invested in his ability to get you to enforce his interpretation of the rules. Once you start enforcing your interpretation of the rules, the Power Gamer will have to modify his expectations.

The Power Gamer will likely have to go through all of the Kubler-Ross stages of grief... (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance)

He must be allowed to come to acceptance at his pace. He might threaten to quit. He might insist on making an entirely different character.

Regardless, you have to start using your own judgment for adjudication and stop using his. The stability of your game depends upon it.

Good luck.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, read the class, read his spells, learn what it's actually capable of, don't just take his word for it.

As others have pointed out, the fear aura only inflicts the shaken condition, which gives them a -2 on their attack roll, it doesn't stop them from attacking him or make them unwilling to attack him. It's just mildly unsettling.

His spells like blindness/deafness have saving throws. Double check his math on his save DC if it seems high, and double check everything that he's adding to it to make sure it's legit. If he's pulling feats/items/etc. out of generic d20 rulebooks that don't have the D&D logo on the cover (or worse, dandwiki homebrew), make him replace them with legitimate feats/items/etc.

Dread Necromancers cannot summon a huge amount of undead. They get a class feature that improves undead they create (from dead bodies, not those they summon) and increases the limit on how many created undead they can control (but does not increase how many they create per spell). None of this has any effect on the Summon Undead line of spells, which have very clearly set limits (two creatures off this list, or four creatures off a lower list, never more than that). Be sure he's using the most recently printed versions of the spells, i.e. Herores of Horror or Spell Compendium if you have it. If he didn't bring the book with him, he doesn't get to cast the spell. Don't take his word for it.

It sounds like he's pulling you around, don't let a player be the arbitrator of the rules, that's your job.

[OldTrees1]

Everyone has said really good advice for your current issues. So I am going to focus forward towards future issues..

As someone quite familiar with the Dread Necromancer:

1) Read the Command Undead 2nd level spell. This spell is too powerful played straight. I love its ability to create a literal army of undead* but that army has no place in the foreground. Decide how much undead the Dread Necromancer will be allowed to have in the foreground and then decide how many undead are allowed in the background and what they are allows to do in the background (defending the party's base for example).

*At 10th level 1 2nd level spell slot per day controls 10 20HD Skeletons. However 1 casting of Chain Spell Command Undead per day would control 110 20HD Skeletons. Using more slots per day or being higher level just increases this number. Eventually you are looking at 1,000 minimum and nearly 100,000 undead.

2) Read the Rebuke/Command Undead rules. However the greater danger comes from the kinds of undead they can control. Some undead(Wights or anything that creates spawn really) can create an unlimited number of undead under your control. Some other undead might be in specific too powerful for your campaign. I suspect your campaign can handle an intelligent incorporeal minion but you should actively be making that decision.

3) Read the fear escalation rules. The Shaken condition does next to nothing, but sometimes 2 instances of shaken stack to become frightened(which is valuable). Be familiar with which orderings of the Dread Necromancer fear abilities (Fear Aura, Fear spell, Intimidate->Demoralize) stack and which do not.


Even when reasonably restrained, the Dread Necromancer is one of the best designed classes out there. It will still be enjoyable to play when restrained.

As for encounter design, give his undead something to do to enable the party. Perhaps the Dragon rules over a swarm of kobolds. The undead can be kept busy holding a path to the dragon that the party can use.