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Spellbreaker26
2017-03-17, 04:06 PM
My group rotates in and out GMs, and I'm currently behind the screen. I've got six players all level 12-13, kitted out fairly well with magic items (including a teleport helmet).

They're a great group, for the most part, with one major problem.

This is their approach to 9/10 problems:

1. They go up to a place - a castle, rebel base, whatever
2. They sneak in, or disguise themselves, or teleport in
3. They are now surrounded by loads of enemy grunts
4. They cause chaos.

Now normally that teleport helmet would be a good "get out of jail" option to flee, but this kingdom they're in has a weak boundary between planes that causes a portal to be left behind whenever teleportation magic is used (not that this stops them spamming it, nor does it act as an incentive to investigate WHY that is, since it's a recent development, but they have studiously avoided this massive plot hook. That's fine, they're following others, it just amuses me.)

Now, up to step 3, they're doing good, right? I think so. Except that step 4 always involves them getting themselves noticed somehow. Usually they're able to fight their way out of it. And it's come to a head at the end of last session. Luckily it ended there, because:

1. They did their usual approach to a cave with the enemy leadership inside. (I had imagined that they might try to do some listening in to discover plans, or perhaps they could have caused a cave in and then ran away). This leadership consisted of about ten giants, one of whom can turn into mist, along with large numbers of Goliath berserkers and a handful of fey.
2. Their step 4 involved trying to convince the giants inside that their rebellion over taxes and food shortages was really being used as a front for a plot by the giants' gods to destroy the kingdom. It was, by the way. They weren't lying. It was just going to be an impossible sell.

Now, for some context.

1. They're in the heart of enemy territory, and just had a skirmish with a large force of Fey
2. before nearly getting jumped by three riders and a pack of ghosts sent to hunt them. (they're called "The Hunt").
3. The rebellion is based on recent food shortages but also is inspired by resentment from the Goliath population towards both the Human/Elf population, who are often oppressive, and outsiders in general.

Now, I didn't want to do the logical thing - have the entire army attack them en masse- because
1. They wouldn't stand a chance
2. It's really hard to do a combat with nearly a hundred combatants

So I let them try to talk their way out of this. Maybe they'll surrender? Instead, they go for the speech.

The sorcerer rolled really well for the convincing speech (and it was a damn good speech) so they managed to start a brawl. They then tried to escape the cave, only to be accosted outside it by that Hunt I was talking about. They then split up. They send the wizard off to grab their Pegasus mounts. Then the rest of them teleport, leaving behind a portal to where they went. Therefore, they are followed by said hunt, plus 4-5 giants. Their last member is cut off by the mist giant.

OK, so barring them being able to fight their way out of this (which my money isn't on) what should I do if they all lose? Should I have them imprisoned and forced to go through a no-gear level to get their stuff? I don't want to just let them get away with it whenever they take on a challenge which is obviously too great for them, but at the same time I don't want to bludgeon them to pieces either.

erikun
2017-03-17, 04:50 PM
Is there any chance of a ransom? Because if so, they might just capture the still living ones and ransom them off to whatever kingdom. It's entirely possible for the kingdom to exchange as well, if they think they might be able to get information from the party.

If not, capture is an option. The giant leader might have a good reason to question the party about this whole god-destroying-kingdom thing they mentioned.

The giants might, upon seeing all these ghosts and so on attacking the party, figure that just chasing them off would be a preferable solution. After all, a bunch of little humans won't be doing much to a single giant, and it's probably not a good idea to have people which attract ghosts sticking around in town. Heck, they might just kill/capture/knock out the party, then dump them over the side of a cliff just to get rid of them.

Tanarii
2017-03-17, 04:56 PM
Questions, each one a progression from the last:
Is you campaign combat as sport or combat as war?
Does your campaign usually have logical consequences for no sense of self-preservation? ie character dies.
How did they survive to get to level 12-13 in the first place?
Why did they stop using whatever tactics allowed them to survive that long and change tactics?

As to what you should do ... kill them. I can't see that the situation demands they should survive. Unless that hasn't ever been the logical consequence for no sense of self-preservation for the entirety of their adventuring career. In which case, you shouldn't do anything. Just let them play these characters as they have, and when you start with the next batch, warn them in advance that the style of play has changed.

Of course, you have to be very wary of 'logical'. Many times what seems like a logical consequence to you might not seem like a logical consequence to the players. That's true both within the campaign, as above, and across them. I get Combat-as-Sport players coming into my Combat-as-War campaign all the time who completely flip out when their character dies. Despite being given explicit statements about how the campaign works. Not all of them, but enough for me to used to it by now.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-03-17, 05:04 PM
Personally I don't like it when players are shielded from themselves. If you're willing to let them live with the consequences of whatever they decide to do it makes for a more powerful experience for everyone.

But I get that that might not be fun for everyone.

Spellbreaker26
2017-03-17, 05:51 PM
Questions, each one a progression from the last:
Is you campaign combat as sport or combat as war?
Does your campaign usually have logical consequences for no sense of self-preservation? ie character dies.
How did they survive to get to level 12-13 in the first place?
Why did they stop using whatever tactics allowed them to survive that long and change tactics?


I think the answer to most of your questions is "rotating GMs"

But not to be wilfully disingenuous, since I appreciate the help.

1. Probably combat-as-sport. I'm assuming that's the "for fun" one?
2. We've had relatively few character deaths, but at the same time they usually act more cautiously. It's just the past series of sessions they've gotten really, really overconfident. I think it's a combination of a really powerful set of magic items and a good deal of luck.
3+4. They usually act more cautiously. It's just the past series of sessions they've gotten really, really overconfident. I think it's a combination of a really powerful set of magic items and a good deal of luck that's carried them alongside being pretty good tacticians (one aspect I didn't mention is that the place they're teleporting to was prepared with walls to make it difficult for anyone following them to attack.

Also, I think that they probably got pretty complacent - the last guy was good but his encounters were mainly monsters with the HP ramped up. He never had more than a couple at a time, and mostly was stuff like a single powerful dragon. Mine are about a few strong monsters, so that's probably more difficult. What has made the past few situations difficult is that my areas aren't designed as something you can just swan in and kill everything.

Like this giant council - had they either not been so inflammatory, or had laid a trap, or had just hung back and collected information, they'd have been fine - I mean, does "about, say, ten giants" sound like the sort of place you should just start insulting their gods? I felt I was doing a pretty good job of making it sound like "keep a low profile". They'd even been mistaken for allied fey outside and let in, so I thought that the impression that this was a really dangerous area was sold.

I'm fine with having ti so that they get captured instead of killed and thrown into a giant prison and have to break out, but I don't want to give the idea that they can do flat out suicidal things and get off scot free.

Quertus
2017-03-17, 06:09 PM
My group rotates in and out GMs, and I'm currently behind the screen. I've got six players all level 12-13, kitted out fairly well with magic items (including a teleport helmet).

Good so far.


They're a great group, for the most part, with one major problem.

This is their approach to 9/10 problems:

1. They go up to a place - a castle, rebel base, whatever
2. They sneak in, or disguise themselves, or teleport in
3. They are now surrounded by loads of enemy grunts
4. They cause chaos.

And how does this change when you're a player?


Now normally that teleport helmet would be a good "get out of jail" option to flee, but this kingdom they're in has a weak boundary between planes that causes a portal to be left behind whenever teleportation magic is used (not that this stops them spamming it, nor does it act as an incentive to investigate WHY that is, since it's a recent development, but they have studiously avoided this massive plot hook. That's fine, they're following others, it just amuses me.)

Most GMs aren't cool enough to have something like that be investigatable. That's your good.

Have they gamed with you enough to realize that the things you do have, you know, defined causes?


2. Their step 4 involved trying to convince the giants inside that their rebellion over taxes and food shortages was really being used as a front for a plot by the giants' gods to destroy the kingdom. It was, by the way. They weren't lying. It was just going to be an impossible sell.

No such thing. Well, for things like this, at least.


Now, I didn't want to do the logical thing - have the entire army attack them en masse- because
1. They wouldn't stand a chance
2. It's really hard to do a combat with nearly a hundred combatants

That's what computers are for. Or simple mathematical averages.


So I let them try to talk their way out of this. Maybe they'll surrender? Instead, they go for the speech.

The sorcerer rolled really well for the convincing speech (and it was a damn good speech) so they managed to start a brawl. They then tried to escape the cave, only to be accosted outside it by that Hunt I was talking about. They then split up. They send the wizard off to grab their Pegasus mounts. Then the rest of them teleport, leaving behind a portal to where they went. Therefore, they are followed by said hunt, plus 4-5 giants. Their last member is cut off by the mist giant.

OK, so barring them being able to fight their way out of this (which my money isn't on) what should I do if they all lose? Should I have them imprisoned and forced to go through a no-gear level to get their stuff? I don't want to just let them get away with it whenever they take on a challenge which is obviously too great for them, but at the same time I don't want to bludgeon them to pieces either.

I'm of the "let the dice fall where they may" school. If they die, they die.

That having been said, the speech should earn them some converts. The giants that followed them should get surprised by a group of giants attacking them from behind. In the event of a TPK, a giant cleric could question his faith, convert, and raise the party. Could work for just some deaths, too, and provide the party with additional intel as a reward for their clever plan.

Tanarii
2017-03-17, 06:33 PM
I think the answer to most of your questions is "rotating GMs"

But not to be wilfully disingenuous, since I appreciate the help.I don't think that's willfully disingenuous at all. For starters, my question phrasing isn't the only answers to those questions. They were (intentionally) somewhat leading in an attempt to provoke some thought before you make a decision on how to proceed.


1. Probably combat-as-sport. I'm assuming that's the "for fun" one?Different people think one or the other is fun. However, Combat-as-Sport is usually the one that more often goes along with eat some pizza, be social, and throw some dice kind of fun.


2. We've had relatively few character deaths, but at the same time they usually act more cautiously. It's just the past series of sessions they've gotten really, really overconfident. I think it's a combination of a really powerful set of magic items and a good deal of luck.
3+4. They usually act more cautiously. It's just the past series of sessions they've gotten really, really overconfident. I think it's a combination of a really powerful set of magic items and a good deal of luck that's carried them alongside being pretty good tacticians (one aspect I didn't mention is that the place they're teleporting to was prepared with walls to make it difficult for anyone following them to attack.

Also, I think that they probably got pretty complacent - the last guy was good but his encounters were mainly monsters with the HP ramped up. He never had more than a couple at a time, and mostly was stuff like a single powerful dragon. Mine are about a few strong monsters, so that's probably more difficult. What has made the past few situations difficult is that my areas aren't designed as something you can just swan in and kill everything.

Like this giant council - had they either not been so inflammatory, or had laid a trap, or had just hung back and collected information, they'd have been fine - I mean, does "about, say, ten giants" sound like the sort of place you should just start insulting their gods? I felt I was doing a pretty good job of making it sound like "keep a low profile". They'd even been mistaken for allied fey outside and let in, so I thought that the impression that this was a really dangerous area was sold.

I'm fine with having ti so that they get captured instead of killed and thrown into a giant prison and have to break out, but I don't want to give the idea that they can do flat out suicidal things and get off scot free.Yeah in that case I wouldn't kill them off to give them a bit of a wake up call about complacency. Especially if it's rotating DMs on top of that.

Pauly
2017-03-17, 11:13 PM
My proposed solution.

Capture. At least some of the Giants are intrugued by the speech. It was a good speech with a hign roll, so there should be some reward for thst.
The Giants take all of the magic items off the characters.
The Giants offer the players a quest. To bring proof of what they said in the speech. The reward - the return of their magic items.
Refusing to accept the request. They become the feature item at the next Giant BBQ. Indicate that some Giants want to BBQ them now.

So they have to do their next mission with no gold and only basic un-magical equipment.

Mastikator
2017-03-18, 09:14 AM
Let a couple of them die and the rest are taken as prisoners of war since the enemy want them to give up info.

All of their stuff is taken, their magic gear is taken and never given back. Their pegasus horses? Gone forever. Their helmet of teleportation? Gone forever. They don't even get replacements.

Spellbreaker26
2017-03-18, 09:57 AM
Thank you guys for all these great responses! :smallbiggrin:


Good so far.


And how does this change when you're a player?


That having been said, the speech should earn them some converts. The giants that followed them should get surprised by a group of giants attacking them from behind. In the event of a TPK, a giant cleric could question his faith, convert, and raise the party. Could work for just some deaths, too, and provide the party with additional intel as a reward for their clever plan.

They got the teleport helmet at the end of the last GM's sessions. Before that there was one time they used dimension door to get into a walled town that didn't open its gates until sunrise, but my character stayed outside and paid their bail when they inevitably got thrown in the drunk tank.

Good idea about having a giant potentially act as an ally.



Yeah in that case I wouldn't kill them off to give them a bit of a wake up call about complacency. Especially if it's rotating DMs on top of that.

Yeah, I think that capture is the direction I'm going in.


My proposed solution.

Capture. At least some of the Giants are intrugued by the speech. It was a good speech with a hign roll, so there should be some reward for thst.
The Giants take all of the magic items off the characters.
The Giants offer the players a quest. To bring proof of what they said in the speech. The reward - the return of their magic items.
Refusing to accept the request. They become the feature item at the next Giant BBQ. Indicate that some Giants want to BBQ them now.

So they have to do their next mission with no gold and only basic un-magical equipment.

This seems to be the best idea. Good catch on the idea of giants potentially allying with them. I think I'm going to have one of the giants let them out, then they can hide and possibly plan an assualt on the giant HQ.


Let a couple of them die and the rest are taken as prisoners of war since the enemy want them to give up info.

All of their stuff is taken, their magic gear is taken and never given back. Their pegasus horses? Gone forever. Their helmet of teleportation? Gone forever. They don't even get replacements.

I mean, I could just flat out take away the magic helmet permanently if they get captured, but that seems like maybe a little too far. A few members of the party clubbed together to buy it (though, predictably, one guy has basically worn it the whole time) so I'm not sure how comfortable I'd feel taking that away permanently.

Yora
2017-03-18, 03:32 PM
A good way to phae out a magic item is to have it gradually wear out and become less effective and reliable. And since teleportation is already acting strangely it wouldn't even be coming from nowhere.
Either the players keep using it frequently until it soon breaks (either completely or limited to much weaker effects) or they begin to stop using it on a whim to keep it in good shape for emergency situations.

One idea could be to introduce a recharge timer. Depending on how much it's usually used, it might have to recharge for one hour after the next use, two hours after that, then three hours, and so on. Or make it days if that would seem more appropriate.

2D8HP
2017-03-18, 03:59 PM
...Is you campaign combat as sport or combat as war?
Does your campaign usually have logical consequences for no sense of self-preservation? ie character dies...
....I get Combat-as-Sport players coming into my Combat-as-War campaign all the time who completely flip out when their character dies. Despite being given explicit statements about how the campaign works. Not all of them, but enough for me to used to it by now.


I was used to what I guess was a "combat as war" style from when I played RPG's 1978 to 1992 (when I stopped). Upon starting again in 2015, its been a bit of culture shock that, "knowing when to walk away, and knowing when to run", seldom seem to be played anymore.


Personally I don't like it when players are shielded from themselves. If you're willing to let them live with the consequences of whatever they decide to do it makes for a more powerful experience for everyone...


I try to have my PC act in-character, but I find that it creates friction.

For example recently in a PbP game, a Medusa carrying a PC that had turned to stone (the player dropped out), me PC shouted out (in-character) the names of the other PC's and then "let's get out of here", upon which another player OOC said:



I don't get why you guys are freaking out this hard about the Medusa. Just keep it at range, which shouldn't be hard to do with the NPC turtlefolk around that you can make sure are between you and the Medusa. I doubt GM pitted us against something totally out of our weight class...
(you guys were cool with a dragon and dragons are designed to be more dangerous than other things of their CR value).


Huh?

Does my PC even know what a CR is?

Is the expectation that the DM will always allow the PC's to (sometimes just barely survive) common?

This attitude diminishes my sense of exploring and interacting with a world.

Arbane
2017-03-18, 09:56 PM
I've never been all that impressed by the 'Combat As War' talk; it just sounds like Gamer Machismo to me. We're playing a game, nobody's really dying if the imaginary orcs get the upper hand, and spending 3 hours cross-examining the GM in the desperate hopes of coming up with a plan to avoid being slaughtered like pigs by overwhelming opposition isn't really my idea of a fun evening.

(Is that an exaggerated, unfair description? I really really HOPE so.)

REALISTIC 'combat as war' would involve three GMs yelling contradictory info at you while slapping you in the head, then rolling randomly to see if you die no matter what you do.



Does my PC even know what a CR is?

Is the expectation that the DM will always allow the PC's to (sometimes just barely survive) common?

This attitude diminishes my sense of exploring and interacting with a world.

Players have a certain understanding that if the GM kills all their characters, that's not a victory for the GM, it's the end of the campaign. Hence competent GMs generally don't send Ancient Red Dragons to attack level 2 parties even if that IS what came up on Random Table Random Table Random Random Encounter Table Table 26C.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-03-18, 10:16 PM
I was used to what I guess was a "combat as war" style from when I played RPG's 1978 to 1992 (when I stopped). Upon starting again in 2015, its been a bit of culture shock that, "knowing when to walk away, and knowing when to run", seldom seem to be played anymore.




I try to have my PC act in-character, but I find that it creates friction.

For example recently in a PbP game, a Medusa carrying a PC that had turned to stone (the player dropped out), me PC shouted out (in-character) the names of the other PC's and then "let's get out of here", upon which another player OOC said:





Huh?

Does my PC even know what a CR is?

Is the expectation that the DM will always allow the PC's to (sometimes just barely survive) common?

This attitude diminishes my sense of exploring and interacting with a world.

I think there's two schools of thought regarding D&D.

One is that the DM throws level appropriate encounters at the PCs and they have fun killing them in tactical combat.

The other one is that the DM sets up a world and lets the PCs interact with it and if they run off and get in a fight with something that'll eat them then it eats them and too bad for them. The burden is on the PCs to do their research and pick their fights carefully.

Personally I don't see the appeal of the first one, but whatever.

Tanarii
2017-03-18, 10:16 PM
I've never been all that impressed by the 'Combat As War' talk; it just sounds like Gamer Machismo to me. We're playing a game, nobody's really dying if the imaginary orcs get the upper hand, and spending 3 hours cross-examining the GM in the desperate hopes of coming up with a plan to avoid being slaughtered like pigs by overwhelming opposition isn't really my idea of a fun evening.

(Is that an exaggerated, unfair description? I really really HOPE so.)

REALISTIC 'combat as war' would involve three GMs yelling contradictory info at you while slapping you in the head, then rolling randomly to see if you die no matter what you do.No, that's a pretty accurate description of what happens when a DM runs combat as war done wrong. :smallbiggrin:

At the most basic level, it means there is no assumption the PCs can win if they choose fight, and they know that's a possibility. But that it's still a game. It's considered fair to make it possible for players to able to somehow judge the possibility of survival if you play not too stupid vs 'oh **** we should run'. The traditional way to do that is to have level-appropriate areas, aka dungeons. (It's worth noting that doesn't mean appropriate to the PCs, just all approximately a selected difficulty.) But really a lot of Combat-as-War is a natural extension of a sandbox game in which players are expected to retreat of things get tough, and find something else to do.

Whereas Combat-as-Sport lends itself to modules, at least any that are effectively linear (as in the Pcs must not fail, they will see the end of the module) and a series of static 'scenes' that they move between and deal with.

Honestly it's not an A or B thing. It's a continuum, and most games are somewhere along it. The terms are just handy Jargon for the extremes. That's why I told Spellbreaker26 that my questions were leading and not the only answers.


Players have a certain understanding that if the GM kills all their characters, that's not a victory for the GM, it's the end of the campaign. Hence competent GMs generally don't send Ancient Red Dragons to attack level 2 parties even if that IS what came up on Random Table Random Table Random Random Encounter Table Table 26C.Why do they have that understanding? In my current campaign, I TPK parties all the time, and the campaign continues fine. They use other characters that are doing other things in other parts of the campaign, or roll other characters.

The adventure may (or may not) have ended. It certainly did for that session of players and those Pcs, unless another party of PCs goes to find their bodies and res them. But the campaign continues on.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with having that understanding. I'm just saying your assumption that the situation is universally true is flawed. It's only true in a single party campaign, when 'campaign' is defined as adventure arc or adventure path (or a series of them). In a multi-party, different players at each session, multiple characters game, where campaign is understood to be the ongoing game as a whole all interacting with each other and having continuous history, as opposed to one party or group ... it's not true.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-03-18, 10:19 PM
Players have a certain understanding that if the GM kills all their characters, that's not a victory for the GM, it's the end of the campaign. Hence competent GMs generally don't send Ancient Red Dragons to attack level 2 parties even if that IS what came up on Random Table Random Table Random Random Encounter Table Table 26C.

If you're playing a game in which Ancient Red Dragon is on the encounter table then you're probably playing a game where rerolling characters takes two minutes and is expected to happen regularly.

Arbane
2017-03-18, 10:30 PM
At the most basic level, it means there is no assumption the PCs can win if they choose fight, and they know that's a possibility. But that it's still a game. It's considered fair to make it possible for players to able to somehow judge the possibility of survival if you play not too stupid vs 'oh **** we should run'.

In D&D at least, there's the SMALL problem that if you can't outfight something, you probably can't outrun it, either.



Why do they have that understanding? In my current campaign, I TPK parties all the time, and the campaign continues fine. They use other characters that are doing other things in other parts of the campaign, or roll other characters.

The adventure may (or may not) have ended. It certainly did for that session of players and those Pcs, unless another party of PCs goes to find their bodies and res them. But the campaign continues on.

Yeesh. Get a lot of characters with names like Krogar, Grogar, and Brogar?

2D8HP
2017-03-18, 10:31 PM
...If you're probably playing a game where rerolling characters takes two minutes and is expected to happen regularly.


Rolling "stats" took a minute in old D&D, but budgeting equipment with random starting GP? That always took me much longer. I've grown to prefer 5e's background and class based "standard equipment".

Tanarii
2017-03-18, 10:34 PM
In D&D at least, there's the SMALL problem that if you can't outfight something, you probably can't outrun it, either.Fair. At least if you don't have a backup tactical plan in advance for running (using whatever magical or mud ace means you can). And often, start running immediately.

There's a reason dropping food (for unintelligent creatures) or treasure (for intelligent ones) while running away is a D&D trope. You needed to do it to distract the enemies chasing you.

Spellbreaker26
2017-03-19, 06:54 AM
Players have a certain understanding that if the GM kills all their characters, that's not a victory for the GM, it's the end of the campaign. Hence competent GMs generally don't send Ancient Red Dragons to attack level 2 parties even if that IS what came up on Random Table Random Table Random Random Encounter Table Table 26C.

And GMs have a certain understanding that if you just send in a series of fights the players can easily win then that isn't much of a victory for the players either.

hencook
2017-03-19, 06:56 AM
It might just be your players. My table rotates GMs as well, and whenever I'm a player, I'm the tactician. Everyone else is a bruiser. We started playing shadowrun, and they got bored, lolol, all my hours of prep work got diced in favor of getting some combat in before the session was over.

Yea, it sucks, I feel ya.

Quertus
2017-03-19, 10:14 AM
Fair. At least if you don't have a backup tactical plan in advance for running (using whatever magical or mud ace means you can). And often, start running immediately.

There's a reason dropping food (for unintelligent creatures) or treasure (for intelligent ones) while running away is a D&D trope. You needed to do it to distract the enemies chasing you.

It's also a game of "spot the monster before it spots you", and don't engage if it's overpowering. Or a fair fight.

So you only have to worry about a TPK if many layers of protection, from scouting to diplomacy to personal power to planning your exit strategy to sacrificing food / treasure / disposable minions all fail.

So, yes, if you're in a situation where you've failed six ways to Sunday, then you have to spend 5 minutes building a new character. Really, that's hardly an unfair price for such an epic failure, now is it? :smalltongue:

Spellbreaker26
2017-03-19, 07:31 PM
I feel a bit silly now. They beat the encounter handily, using walls and the Blade Barrier spell to great effect, alongside cutting off the portal tear via dispel magic so they only had to fight two giants (one of whom fled in mist form when he neared death).

I think I should have put a bit more trust in them, but thank you guys for your advice nonetheless! :smallbiggrin:

ross
2017-03-19, 09:17 PM
It might just be your players. My table rotates GMs as well, and whenever I'm a player, I'm the tactician. Everyone else is a bruiser. We started playing shadowrun, and they got bored, lolol, all my hours of prep work got diced in favor of getting some combat in before the session was over.

Yea, it sucks, I feel ya.

Yeah, I too hate when my players want to have fun.

Tanarii
2017-03-20, 08:22 AM
It's also a game of "spot the monster before it spots you", and don't engage if it's overpowering. Or a fair fight.

So you only have to worry about a TPK if many layers of protection, from scouting to diplomacy to personal power to planning your exit strategy to sacrificing food / treasure / disposable minions all fail.

So, yes, if you're in a situation where you've failed six ways to Sunday, then you have to spend 5 minutes building a new character. Really, that's hardly an unfair price for such an epic failure, now is it? :smalltongue:
I don't have a problem with players playing that way, nor with dying when they fail. Other people don't like playing that way because they consider it fiddly or otherwise not fun. And yet others consider it a cardinal not-fun sin to kill players or worse have a TPK.

Generally speaking I eventually find games that don't require gygaxian 'player skill' unchallenging and not fun. But they can work for me for a shorter 'eat pizza & kill orcs' (or demons) adventure that lasts a few months of weekly sessions. But IMX is those always fall apart if they try to last longer than that because they're lacking a real feeling of challenge. Just as any game lacking solid player goals falls apart, a huge danger in overly sandbox dungeon delving games, which are often traditional CaW games.

My comment was about D&D combat rules of most editions generally speaking make it hard to get away if it is just assumed that the turn based tactical simulator cannot be broken out of. ie without DM intervention of cutting to a chase instead, or otherwise recognizing that their is simultaneity underlying the turn based rules. And even then it's difficult if you've all got the same movement, starting in melee, there's no rules for getting exhausted or deciding to stop chasing, etc.

BECMI had evasion rules, and D&D 5e has Chase rules, so its not impossible in all editions. Although many DMs make it effectively impossible anyway.




-------------------
Also, Spellbreaker26, great to hear they were able to handle the situation without dying. :)

Pauly
2017-03-21, 04:08 AM
I feel a bit silly now. They beat the encounter handily, using walls and the Blade Barrier spell to great effect, alongside cutting off the portal tear via dispel magic so they only had to fight two giants (one of whom fled in mist form when he neared death).

I think I should have put a bit more trust in them, but thank you guys for your advice nonetheless! :smallbiggrin:

It's amazing what having a week to think about the situation can do to improve yourr player's tactical acumen.

But it's also good to have a few backup ideas tp prevent a TPK if they go too hard next time.