Thor's Alignment

[Evil DM Mark3]

This has been bugging me for a while. What alignment is Thor? The only "official" scource would be Deities and Demigods that lists CG, but I am fully aware that this setting may have a divverant Thor. Durkon is Lawful and probably good, although that has never been stated. Duekon is not evil. So Thor could be...

IF Durkon is LG

LG, unlikely due to made drunken antics
LN, less likely.
NG, possible but a little off I feel.

IF Durkon is LN we also have

LE, go away those of you who think this. I have no time for you.
NN, possible due to varied and incosistent behaviour (ie NN by virtue of being Goovil Lawotic) but also not ideal.

Discuss.

[Morty]

Durkon is most likely LG. He's been doing good deeds through the whole comic, and I don't remember him doing anything evil.
As for Thor: he's definetly not LN, LG is more likely and NG even more. However, there's still an option that OoTSverse have different rules on gods, ignoring the "one step" rule, which would allow Thor to be CG, which is most likely alignment looking on his behavior.

[TheAlmightyOne]

I thought the one-step rule applied to both the good evil axis and law-chaos axis. Meaning that a lawful good cleric could worship a chaotic good thor.

[Tirian]

Durkon is LG. Durkon is not anything other than LG. End of discussion.

Thor is clearly a chaotic fellow. I suspect that he is intended to be CG because his main duty seems to be thwarting Loki.

Even if AD&D has a problem with this (and I haven't played in eons but I believe if you look at past threads discussing this point you'd see that they don't), it clearly isn't a problem in the OOTS world. We've seen a Durkon who isn't pleased to nearly give Elan a colon tumor and who recognizes that his WWTD bracelet doesn't really aid his decision making. At the same time, he's pleased when Thor allows a Control Weather spell to be used in an illicit manner to save V's life. But no matter what sort of person Thor is or how Durkon feels about Thor's dedication to good, Durkon unquestionably follows Thor in an ultra-lawful manner.

[fangthane]

Durkon is LG. Thor is CG. Ordinarily, this would preclude Durkon being one of Thor's priests, however there's something that assessment overlooks.

Thor's Chaotic.

Just like when Belkar was served with a restraining order by Windstriker's attorney, we find that chaotic characters occasionally tell the rules to go take a flying leap. When the chaotic character happens to be a god, he almost always gets his way. And if Thor wants to invest divine power into a lawful dwarf, that's his call.

[yoshi927]

Chaotic stupid. :smallbiggrin: Although, he does have some tendencies towards helping out his clerics, so he might be leaning towards neutral.

[Gundato]

Also, it wouldn't be too out of place to have a simple house rule of "One-step away on the alignment axes, or Dwarven" as the requirement for picking Thor as a deity.

[Porthos]

This has been pretty heavily discussed on this board (much like Belkar's alignment). :smallsmile: In earlier discussions, Rich flat out stated that the Thor we see is not the DnD statted Thor, but his own version of the god. That being said, by Thor's actions, I too would peg Thor as being CG.

So either the One Step Rule does not apply in the world of OotS (not exactly unheard of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eberron) :smalltongue:), or the Northern Gods get to grant spells to Dwarves, with loosened restrictions in regards to alignment. My personal take is that the Northern Gods will allow worship along the Law/Chaos axis, but not the Good/Evil Axis.

This would mean that you can have Lawful worshipers of Thor, but not Evil ones. Still, that's just personal opinion, and I freely admit that theory could be shot out of the water with a single update. :smallwink:

[the_tick_rules]

it's OOTS world, things are just weird there.

[Tirian]

Chaotic stupid. :smallbiggrin: Although, he does have some tendencies towards helping out his clerics, so he might be leaning towards neutral.

If anyone is going to get unfortunately alignment-labelled as "stupid", I would have to tag Durkon and not Thor. He incorrectly recognizes omens and then imprints his own notions of morality as being the will of his god. Naturally, Durkon is a most excellent guy and the world is a more noble place and we get a good laugh when this happens, but we've also seen the disasters when Miko exhibits the same character flaw. The day may come when Durkon makes a very wrong decision because there is a storm outside.

Thor is a god, and all but actual gods of Law have always been portrayed as being ultimately above human morality (and the gods of Law are generally above caring about humans at all). And AD&D alignments are as flawed as always, because it is awkward to describe a character who fights the Forces of Chaos but with an unpredictable level of commitment.

[chibibar]

You know.... people CAN tweak the alignment and requirement for the God vs followers. The rule book just give guidelines (that is what the rulebook really is... just guidelines)

As you can see in the comic, it is possible to have a CG god (we seem to agree here) and have LG follower. Durkon is LG. He follows the rules and order VERY strictly even if it discomfort him (i.e. not ever going home until sent for) and continue to do good (like Hilga's incident after discovering that she was suppose to be marry)

Now Thor... well.. that's Thor :)

Granted that other alignment mix like LG follower and LE god... well it is possible, hence the roleplaying part :) if you can convince me (if I GM) a good story about it.. more than likely I would let you play it (if it is balance of course I would tweak it)

[Longshanks]

I would have to say CG as well. Could be Chaotic Neutral since its his own build of Thor.

[chibibar]

I would have to say CG as well. Could be Chaotic Neutral since its his own build of Thor.

Well.. but this Thor still does good thing and fight evil (Loki) so Thor is good, but he is chaotic when it comes to what he will do (randomly drink and throw lightning bolt or woo women)

[PaladinFreak]

I think that the most likely alignment for Thor is CG. I also beleive Durkon is LG. I have always thought that Good and Evil are much more bitter enemies than Law and Chaos. For example, Archons (LG) fight Devils (LE) with extreme hatred, but are on reasonably good terms with Eladrins (CG), even if they often don't agree. Therefor, I have never had too much of a problem with Thor (CG IMO) being Durkon's (LG IMO) patron god.

[holywhippet]

A thought I had in a similar thread is that Durkon and the other Dwarves simply have no idea what Thor is really like. Durkon assumed Thor was acting in mysterious ways with that storm that appeared just before Miko arrived.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Thor = Chaotic Good
Durkon = Lawful Good

Rich = Houserule allowing a semi-reasonable 2 step variation between Durkon and Thor, since both are more interested in performing acts of Good than sweating out whether or not an act is "Lawful" or "Chaotic."

Besides Durkon "fibbed" when asked about the locks. The lock wasn't defective, Haley was just that good. Not a full on lie, but certianly not "the absolute truth, with no reservation." But Durkon isn't going to lose his LG status for one relatively minor transgression...

[Siwenna]

A thought I had in a similar thread is that Durkon and the other Dwarves simply have no idea what Thor is really like. Durkon assumed Thor was acting in mysterious ways with that storm that appeared just before Miko arrived.

That makes alot of sense. I can see a CG god being fine with having a LG worshipper. LGs, though, would be pretty upset about worshipping a very chaotic CG god like THor.

Anyway, plenty of D&D rules have been tweaked in OOTS. I think this just one of those cases.

It really bugs me how the good/evil axis so often more important than the law/chaos axis. In real life I think they're basically of equal importance, after all, a lawful person has a totally different approach than a chaotic one, but it's more subtle than good and evil so often gets left out in a gamem

[Nightgaunt]

Does anyone else get the impression that alignment, while important for the races on the world the Order resides on, doesn't really apply to the actual Gods themselves?

___Spoiler from Start of Darkness___

Especially if you've read this book, the decisions the gods make really seem to indicate a lack of general belief in Good or Evil, they all just seem self-interested and having their own agenda. It doesn't seem any of the Gods are genuienly caring or nurturing. We don't really have a lot of evidence to say all the gods are evil, but we haven't really seen any God actually commit to a single good act, even gods that are supposedly good. (Can someone correct me maybe, I could have missed something)

[Emperor Ing]

I'm gonna lean towards either Lawful or Neutral Good. Its just how ive seen Thor throughout the comic.

[the mysterian]

chaotic good sounds right.

[Jimmy Discordia]

I see Durkon as LG and Thor as CG. This could suggest that the OOTSverse ignores the one-step rule, that Thor makes exceptions for dwarves, or any number of things, really.

My favorite explanation is fangthane's idea that since Thor is Chaotic, he doesn't particularly care if his clerics are Lawful. The versions of Thor that I've seen in D&D are more about Good than Chaos anyway; he's not exactly dedicated to Chaos, it's just that his personality happens to be too Chaotic for him to be NG. That's my take on it, anyway... part of me wishes D&D had more terms to describe subtleties like this, and part of me knows that would make the alignment system far too Byzantine.

[BelkarPwnsAll!]

If you found any TRULY HILARIOUS vids, PM me the link, and if i really like em, ill sponsor ya! for a time...:smallconfused: 1. How do you make links? 2. How do you make spoilers? 3. Why would sponsering help us?! Thor I say is CN because he can be stupid from time to time with his acts, AND he can be good with his actions towards clerics... See, Durkon doesn't realize what Thor is doing up there. If he knew, he might not worship Thor no mo'...:smallfrown:

[Grod_The_Giant]

mythology would have him as CG. By actions in OOTS...CG still applies, but CN (with good tendencies) would work too (as evidenced by the part where he gives Duncan a big boost then says 'I'm going to go paw Sif for a bit. Let me know if the dwarf lives or dies'.

[Milandros]

It really bugs me how the good/evil axis so often more important than the law/chaos axis. In real life I think they're basically of equal importance, after all, a lawful person has a totally different approach than a chaotic one, but it's more subtle than good and evil so often gets left out in a gamem

I'd disagree here. In D&D Good/Evil determines a person's morals and goals - what they want out of life and what they're willing to do to get it. Order/Chaos determines the methods and routes used to get to those goals.

In the end, order/chaos differences between good people lead to occasional bickering or frustrations between "too stodgy and rulebound" and "undisciplined, unplanned, unreliable". However, Princess Leia (LG) doesn't open fire on Han Solo (CG) no matter how annoyed she is with him; but she'll shoot at stormtroopers and dedicate her whole life to overthowing the Emperor (LE).

On the good side of things, annoyance with someone else's style and methods doesn't spill over to actual conflict. Just because you don't particularly like them doesn't mean that you'll actively move against them - because you both believe in the same things - justice, freedom, peace, the right to be happy and so on. On the evil side, of course, it's the opposite - a reason to hate is a reason to destroy. Heck, everyone who isn't your minion is your rival or enemy, regardless of alignment.

It's possible to switch things over to a Order/Chaos primary axis, of course. Plenty of novels do this, though many present "order" as "good" and "chaos" as "evil", taking chaos to mean purely anarchy, destruction and entropy (instead of CG principles like mercy, freedom, etc). If you do so, however, I'd suggest dropping the Good/Evil part of the alignment definition altogether.

[teratorn]

From the SRD


Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
Thor promised to abide by a set rules when they emprisoned the Snarl and he tends to do so. Thor says he only "bent" the rules once so there is a level of "law" he won't generally break even if he feels like it. He's forced to be lawful, even if his personality traits are clearly chaotic. There's a lot of stuff he could do but he won't do because of the rules.

My guess is that the Snarl thing puts a limit on how chaotic a god can be in OOTS. Breaking the rules makes way for the Snarl.

[Porthos]

He's forced to be lawful, even if his personality traits are clearly chaotic. There's a lot of stuff he could do but he won't do because of the rules.

My guess is that the Snarl thing puts a limit on how chaotic a god can be in OOTS. Breaking the rules makes way for the Snarl.

That just means he's Chaotic Good, not Chaotic Stupid. :smalltongue: We have many, many examples of Thor acting Chaotic, and almost none where he's acting Lawful.

If the closest Thor comes to being Lawful is not getting into a fight with The Twelve Gods over Divine Territory, or not acting in a reckless manner that would let The Snarl loose, I'd say he was Chaotic. Yeah, he makes sure he doesn't do things that would let The Snarl loose. That just means he happens to have a Wisdom score above 9. :smallbiggrin:

As for the scene with The Twelve Gods, the fact the he decided not to get into a fight with them isn't indicative of a Lawful personality. It's indicative of someone having an Int higher than 9. Smart people don't get into fights that they don't want to get into after all. :smallwink:

Or to put it another way: Chaotic Does Not Have To Equal Random. Self-Preservation Instinct knows no alignment boundaries after all. :smallsmile:

[Oberon]

I think that the most likely alignment for Thor is CG. I also beleive Durkon is LG. I have always thought that Good and Evil are much more bitter enemies than Law and Chaos. For example, Archons (LG) fight Devils (LE) with extreme hatred, but are on reasonably good terms with Eladrins (CG), even if they often don't agree. Therefor, I have never had too much of a problem with Thor (CG IMO) being Durkon's (LG IMO) patron god.

But Devils(LE) and Demons(CE) are just as brutally opposed to one another, and are only separated on the law/chaos axis. A more accurate summation would be that evil characters have a harder time getting along with anyone, which is one of the classic explainations of why the good guys will win: they can work together, and use the "power of friendship" and all that junk. But I agree with you in that the difference in the chaos-law axis usually means disagreement and In the good-evil axis it usually means war. It just happened to mean war for the other axis in this case as well...

As for the Durkon-Thor debate, possibly the reason that Durkon is frustrated with the "WWTD" saying, which is technically one ofhis God's teachings, is that he is worshipping a deity outside of his 1-step range. That same comic also seems to show that Durkon is fully aware of what Thor would do, wooing women, drinking, rampant destruction and all, and therefore the priests of Thor are probably aware of Thor's alignment.

But when we look at thor in comparison to his counterparts, maybe the whole dang Pantheon is chaotic. Odin wanted to let Banjo into the pantheon on a foolish whim (I like puppets) until thor intervened, and although we haven't seen much of Loki he is generally thought of as the trickster, and thus the most Chaotic of the Norse Gods. (er... I mean the Northern Gods.)

Thor might be the most lawful presence they have. He just knows how to have a good time.

[Megatron]

If anyone is going to get unfortunately alignment-labelled as "stupid", I would have to tag Durkon and not Thor. He incorrectly recognizes omens and then imprints his own notions of morality as being the will of his god. Naturally, Durkon is a most excellent guy and the world is a more noble place and we get a good laugh when this happens, but we've also seen the disasters when Miko exhibits the same character flaw. The day may come when Durkon makes a very wrong decision because there is a storm outside.

Actually I think this provides a good explanation, alignment-wise. Durkon misinterprets things and makes these sort of mistakes because he is lawful, and his god is not.

Durkon expects order where there often is none. For example, when Thor is blindfolded and throwing lightning bolts in random directions, yet Durkon, believing there is an order to everything, takes it as an omen.

He is applying his alignment to a deity that does not share it.

[SKarious]

the real question, however, is Thog's alignment. :smallbiggrin:
Seriously, any ideas?

[PirateMonk]

CE of course.

How is this arguable? :smallconfused:

[Evil DM Mark3]

OK here are my considered thoughts and opinions.

Thor is CG, Durkon is LG. HOWEVER there is a houserule, the one I would use in this situation would be that the Northen gods grant power together as a NG force, all clerics have differant gods but draw power from this one scource hence the alignment working. Loki, Hel (if whe exists) et all are rouge gods not in this "valhalla force." I would use this as historicaly people worshiped the gods as a group, not only one of them. Same applies to the 12 gods.

Law and Chaos are just as burtaly oposed to each other as good and evil. It is just that Good can put the argument asside when it has too for the greater need and in any case rarely reorts to violance. Evil can't, nor does it want to.

Thog is either CN or CE, depending on if he understands concepts such as death and pain. He may be too stupid to understand what he is doing and therefore not be evil. I doubt it however.

[TroyXavier]

While Thog is definitely dumb, he's probably no dumber than the CE Ogres. He's CE.

[Porthos]

Thog is either CN or CE, depending on if he understands concepts such as death and pain. He may be too stupid to understand what he is doing and therefore not be evil. I doubt it however.

You don't have to understand the fact that you are being evil, to in fact, be evil. The aforementioned example of Ogres is the perfect example of that. Besides, Thog does have self-awareness, albeit a pretty rudimentary one. He delights in causing carnage, chaos, and destruction, and he knows that society doesn't like it when he does that. But he just doesn't care and would rather revel in his own pleasures. In his own way, he is just as evil as Belkar.

Stupidity is not a "Get out of Hell Free" card. :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

I agree that Thog is Chaotic Evil, but I think that it would be relatively easy for him to shift alignment, were he in different company. Look at how quickly and easily he befriended Elan. Now, admittedly, Elan has a high Charisma, and hence makes friends easily, but I think that if Thog were teamed up with the Order of the Stick rather than the Linear Guild, he'd learn to accept the Good notion of "friend unless otherwise specified", rather than "squishy target unless otherwise specified".

[Oberon]

CE of course.

How is this arguable? :smallconfused:

Well you see, many people seem to think Thog is neutral (and not evil) despite his love for killing and rampant distruction. They're just wrong, that's all.

Thog knows exactly what is going on. Remember the "nale nail not-nale" speech? :thog: Thog Guilty!

[chorpler]

My question is: is Loki really evil? If so, why did Durkon hook up with Hilgya instead of fighting her? Surely a cleric of an evil god is his enemy, right?

[Tirian]

My question is: is Loki really evil? If so, why did Durkon hook up with Hilgya instead of fighting her? Surely a cleric of an evil god is his enemy, right?

In Norse mythology, there are two portrayals of Loki. One is CE and the archenemy of Team Odin, and the other is a N-CN member of Odin's court who helps out. I guess it's a little like the Gotham City police never asking why they are putting the Joker back in an asylum that he will escape from -- in order to betray the gods properly he needs to have easy access to their good graces.

There is at least some of that dichotomy in OOTS; Thor and Loki are at each other's throats when we see them, but we see in #275 that Loki helped to contain the Snarl back when the needs of the gods were greatest. But without knowing more, I'd guess that it is much more likely that this is very rare.

In #52, it was clear than Durkon allied with Hilgya because he had no idea who Loki was. So either they are keeping a very low profile in this age or Durkon rolled a natural 1 on the world's easiest Lore check.

[chorpler]

In Norse mythology, there are two portrayals of Loki. One is CE and the archenemy of Team Odin, and the other is a N-CN member of Odin's court who helps out. I guess it's a little like the Gotham City police never asking why they are putting the Joker back in an asylum that he will escape from -- in order to betray the gods properly he needs to have easy access to their good graces.

Yeah, I know about the dichotomy of Loki in actual Norse mythology, but as we've seen, the OOTS gods are quite a bit different from their real-world mythological counterparts.

(Speaking of which -- who is that god with the four arms and four eyes? Is that Marduk? He seems to be hanging around with Tiamet, the five-headed dragon chick, a lot. But what/who is he?)


There is at least some of that dichotomy in OOTS; Thor and Loki are at each other's throats when we see them, but we see in #275 that Loki helped to contain the Snarl back when the needs of the gods were greatest. But without knowing more, I'd guess that it is much more likely that this is very rare.

In #52, it was clear than Durkon allied with Hilgya because he had no idea who Loki was. So either they are keeping a very low profile in this age or Durkon rolled a natural 1 on the world's easiest Lore check.

Good point -- he may just not know who Loki is. I would have thought that Durkon, as a cleric of Thor, would be well versed in the pantheon ... but I guess that's not necessarily the case. Ah well.

One other question: is that orange flowy stuff behind Loki supposed to be Loki's hair, or is it fire (as in, god of fire and mischief)?