Duke of Urrel
2017-03-17, 10:42 PM
My question is simply this:
Does Spellcraft skill help you identify any spell that affects you, even one that you can neither see nor detect – whether it is a Target spell or not?
My reason for asking is more involved...
I.
According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm), "After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, [you can] determine what that spell was" by making a Spellcraft check at DC 25 plus the spell's spell level.
The Rules Compendium states the same rule in a table on page 138, but replaces the preposition "on" with "at": "After rolling a save against a spell targeted at you, [you can] identify that spell" by making a Spellcraft check at DC 25 plus the spell's spell level.
The emphases are mine, of course.
II.
As we know, there are actually three ways to identify a spell using Spellcraft skill.
(1) You can ready an action to identify a spell while it is being cast; the DC is 15 plus the spell's SL.
(2) You can reactively identify a spell whose effects you can see or detect; the DC is 20 plus the spell's SL.
(3) You can reactively identify a spell "targeted on" or "targeted at" you; the DC is 25 plus the spell's SL.
It is surely pointless make a Spellcraft check of the third kind if you can simply make a Spellcraft check of the second kind, whose DC is lower. In other words, if you can either see or detect a spell's effect, surely you will not make a Spellcraft check at DC 25 + SL; instead, you will make a Spellcraft check at DC 20 + SL.
However, there are spells whose effects you cannot see and whose effects are so subtle that you don't detect them at all – unless your saving throw succeeds against them, so that you feel "a hostile force or tingle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow)." Spells of this kind may include Charm Person, Suggestion, Mind Fog (*), Detect Thoughts, and Scrying (**). If you make a Will save against any one of these spells and your Will save fails, you may neither see nor detect anything. If you can neither see nor detect a spell because your saving throw against it has failed, the only way to identify the spell is by making a Spellcraft check at DC 25 + SL.
III.
This brings me back to my question.
As we know, there are different ways to aim a spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell). Some spells are Target spells, some are Effect spells, and some are Area spells.
(A) If we interpret the phrase "targeted on" or "targeted at" strictly to include only Target spells, Spellcraft skill helps you identify only Target spells that you can neither see nor detect. These include Charm Person and Suggestion, but not Mind Fog (which is an Effect spell), Scrying (another Effect spell), or Detect Thoughts (which is an Area spell).
(B) If we interpret the phrase "targeted on" or "targeted at" more loosely, Spellcraft skill helps you identify any one of the five spells mentioned above if it affects you, including Mind Fog and Detect Thoughts, even if you can neither see nor detect the spell.
I submit this question to the Playground: Which interpretation, (A) or (B), do you prefer, and why?
____________________
*Yes, I know the effect of the Mind Fog isn't invisible but merely so "thin" that it doesn't hamper vision. But suppose, for the sake of argument, you walk into a cloud of Mind Fog in a totally dark area in which you can't see anything, so that the cloud really is invisible to you; and suppose your Will save fails, so that the mental effect of the Mind Fog really is undetectable to you.
**Yes, I know you do detect a scrying sensor if you have an Intelligence score of 12 or higher and you make an Intelligence check at DC 20. But suppose, for the sake of argument, your Intelligence check fails immediately after your Will save against the Scrying spell does, so that the scrying sensor really is undetectable to you.
Does Spellcraft skill help you identify any spell that affects you, even one that you can neither see nor detect – whether it is a Target spell or not?
My reason for asking is more involved...
I.
According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm), "After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, [you can] determine what that spell was" by making a Spellcraft check at DC 25 plus the spell's spell level.
The Rules Compendium states the same rule in a table on page 138, but replaces the preposition "on" with "at": "After rolling a save against a spell targeted at you, [you can] identify that spell" by making a Spellcraft check at DC 25 plus the spell's spell level.
The emphases are mine, of course.
II.
As we know, there are actually three ways to identify a spell using Spellcraft skill.
(1) You can ready an action to identify a spell while it is being cast; the DC is 15 plus the spell's SL.
(2) You can reactively identify a spell whose effects you can see or detect; the DC is 20 plus the spell's SL.
(3) You can reactively identify a spell "targeted on" or "targeted at" you; the DC is 25 plus the spell's SL.
It is surely pointless make a Spellcraft check of the third kind if you can simply make a Spellcraft check of the second kind, whose DC is lower. In other words, if you can either see or detect a spell's effect, surely you will not make a Spellcraft check at DC 25 + SL; instead, you will make a Spellcraft check at DC 20 + SL.
However, there are spells whose effects you cannot see and whose effects are so subtle that you don't detect them at all – unless your saving throw succeeds against them, so that you feel "a hostile force or tingle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow)." Spells of this kind may include Charm Person, Suggestion, Mind Fog (*), Detect Thoughts, and Scrying (**). If you make a Will save against any one of these spells and your Will save fails, you may neither see nor detect anything. If you can neither see nor detect a spell because your saving throw against it has failed, the only way to identify the spell is by making a Spellcraft check at DC 25 + SL.
III.
This brings me back to my question.
As we know, there are different ways to aim a spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell). Some spells are Target spells, some are Effect spells, and some are Area spells.
(A) If we interpret the phrase "targeted on" or "targeted at" strictly to include only Target spells, Spellcraft skill helps you identify only Target spells that you can neither see nor detect. These include Charm Person and Suggestion, but not Mind Fog (which is an Effect spell), Scrying (another Effect spell), or Detect Thoughts (which is an Area spell).
(B) If we interpret the phrase "targeted on" or "targeted at" more loosely, Spellcraft skill helps you identify any one of the five spells mentioned above if it affects you, including Mind Fog and Detect Thoughts, even if you can neither see nor detect the spell.
I submit this question to the Playground: Which interpretation, (A) or (B), do you prefer, and why?
____________________
*Yes, I know the effect of the Mind Fog isn't invisible but merely so "thin" that it doesn't hamper vision. But suppose, for the sake of argument, you walk into a cloud of Mind Fog in a totally dark area in which you can't see anything, so that the cloud really is invisible to you; and suppose your Will save fails, so that the mental effect of the Mind Fog really is undetectable to you.
**Yes, I know you do detect a scrying sensor if you have an Intelligence score of 12 or higher and you make an Intelligence check at DC 20. But suppose, for the sake of argument, your Intelligence check fails immediately after your Will save against the Scrying spell does, so that the scrying sensor really is undetectable to you.