Minimum number of spells for T1 Wizard

[GilesTheCleric]

So folks have been discussing the concept in a thread with a conspicuous, disappointing lack of topless hunks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518537-This-Forum-is-(still)-wrong-about-CR-(and-Wizards)). It's an interesting idea, and I think it deserves to get some proper discussion.

I've been thinking about it a little, and I've come up with a concept. There's a few heuristics we could probably use. The first, of course, is listing every challenge you could face in a game, and then find a spell that beats one or preferably many of them. The second is to generalise challenges to types (eg combat, exploration, social), and again do the same. The third is to instead look at solutions (the spells) rather than problems, and see how they could be used to obviate nearly any problem. The fourth, and I think the best method, is to define what abilities you need in order to break the game qualitatively, rather than quantitatively.

In terms of this fourth method, I've come up with three categories. Time, Distance, and Power. Each of these are a core component of strategic and tactical success, and I think between the three you can define most of your ability. If you can think of some other categories, please let me know.
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Time-based spells are those that give you more time than your challenge. These could be things that give you more, higher-value use of time, such as blinding your foe. Anything that improves your action economy relative to your foe.

Distance spells relate to how you engage with a challenge. Can it be overcome by avoiding it, such as with flight? Can you strike down your foe before they're close with their greatsword?

Power is about improving your available resources in a short or preferably long-term fashion. So things like buffing before you kick in the door, or creating some undead during downtime.
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I think that under this model, you can "break" a campaign on as few as three spells, provided that the spells are flexible enough. For example: Celerity, Fly, and Create Undead. Or, perhaps Obscuring Mist, Teleport, and Shape Stone.

We would probably have to add a few spells to each category as the levels increase and challenges become more complicated or have counters to your lower-level solutions, but that's the nature of the game.



In any case, how do you think we can best define the problem, and then solve it?

[OldTrees1]

I think that under this model, you can "break" a campaign on as few as three spells, provided that the spells are flexible enough. For example: Celerity, Fly, and Create Undead. Or, perhaps Obscuring Mist, Teleport, and Shape Stone.

We would probably have to add a few spells to each category as the levels increase and challenges become more complicated or have counters to your lower-level solutions, but that's the nature of the game.

In any case, how do you think we can best define the problem, and then solve it?

Wouldn't that be the threshold for Tier 2? I expect Tier 1 would be some quantity*** of trios* that each contain unique spells** that solve their field in a qualitatively different manner.

*Trio because you listed 3 categories. Replace with the appropriate word if that changes.
**You cannot use the same spell in multiple trios & a spell used in a slot of a trio must solve that area differently than every other spell in the same slot in a different trio you listed.

***Getting a consensus number would be difficult but essential. Just to start the ball rolling I am going to start with "5".

[Pleh]

It looks like you put "minionmancy" under "power" type of gamechanging, if I may.

I see minionmancy spells as really providing all three benefits. They improve action economy and allow the caster to operate at a safe distance on top of their inclusion of additional resources.

[GilesTheCleric]

Wouldn't that be the threshold for Tier 2? I expect Tier 1 would be some quantity*** of trios* that each contain unique spells** that solve their field in a qualitatively different manner.

*Trio because you listed 3 categories. Replace with the appropriate word if that changes.
**You cannot use the same spell in multiple trios & a spell used in a slot of a trio must solve that area differently than every other spell in the same slot in a different trio you listed.

***Getting a consensus number would be difficult but essential. Just to start the ball rolling I am going to start with "5".

These are good points. If a T1 must have at least 2 sets of spells, then is the minimum number 6 (or 2*number_of_categories)?


It looks like you put "minionmancy" under "power" type of gamechanging, if I may.

I see minionmancy spells as really providing all three benefits. They improve action economy and allow the caster to operate at a safe distance on top of their inclusion of additional resources.

There are definitely some spells that can solve for all three. Polymorph, minions, wish, summons/ calling. Can you think of three categories that are mutually exclusive, or does it even matter? Are category-spanning spells the best spells, and the only ones necessary to be T1?

[AvatarVecna]

In terms of this fourth method, I've come up with three categories. Time, Distance, and Power. Each of these are a core component of strategic and tactical success, and I think between the three you can define most of your ability. If you can think of some other categories, please let me know.

Time-based spells are those that give you more time than your challenge. These could be things that give you more, higher-value use of time, such as blinding your foe. Anything that improves your action economy relative to your foe.

Distance spells relate to how you engage with a challenge. Can it be overcome by avoiding it, such as with flight? Can you strike down your foe before they're close with their greatsword?

Power is about improving your available resources in a short or preferably long-term fashion. So things like buffing before you kick in the door, or creating some undead during downtime.

The minimum number of spells necessary to be flexible enough that you can T1 your way through things? Hmm...Command Undead, Animate Dead, Polymorph, Scrying, Teleport, and Contingency should do well. If you absolutely had to do it with three, I'd probably say Polymorph, Scrying, and Teleport: Scrying lets you gather information far in advance, giving you a bit of time to research possible specialized spells for defeating the foe in question (or at least specialized Polymorph forms for the same purpose), Teleport (particularly combined with Scrying) gives you greater control over the circumstances the fight will take place in, and Polymorph lets you play a giant game of Rock Paper Scissors where you get to make your choice after seeing your opponents. It won't always be perfect, but it doesn't have to be. But being T1, to my understanding, means having lots of different combos at various levels you could pull off for these three categories. I'm off to put together a few spells lists.

[Segev]

It may behoove us to approach this with an eye towards the difference between T1 and T2. After all, it's widely accepted that a sorcerer is practically the poster-boy for T2. He only has a hammer, but it's a very powerful hammer, so he'll treat every problem like a nail. Often, it will work, but what makes him T2 is that you can work around his hammer so that he can't use it effectively to just trounce your encounter. Some encounters really do still require a wrench.

T1 is the ability to not just bring the right tool to the job, but to always have that tool be the mightiest, most overpowering version of that tool, to boot.

Which is why wizards and other broad-list prepped casters are considered T1: they can change out their tool belt to perfectly address a given challenge.

The somewhat fallacious way that Wizard supremacy is oft touted is by simply naming the spell or spell combo he would use in any given situation to Win. Not just "win," but "Win." It's somewhat fallacious because there are a lot of assumptions that go into him having that spell combo when and where he needs it, starting from assuming he knows the relevant spells at all and ending with him having had them prepared (with some hand-waving about divinations in the middle). It is only somewhat fallacious because it is possible to do about 85% of that kind of preparation and be good enough to really have that flexibility when you need it, even if it's a little difficult in actual play. (85% is a made-up number; I have not done a statistical analysis. I believe it a fair guestimate, but that's all it is.)

So, just taking for granted the generous assumption that the wizard can find out WHAT spells he will need on a given day, the question to me is how many (and which) spells he must have in his spellbook in order to really achieve this.

One reason this is interesting is because it can also allow us to examine the sorcerer. If the wizard needs fewer spells in his spellbook at each spell level than the sorcerer knows at those same spell levels, a sorcerer with the right selection of spells is Tier 1. If the wizard needs more spells than that, the sorcerer could become T1 just by increasing his spells known to match. And there's room to argue that he could do with a few less, since his spontcasting might make up a difference there.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, on the post that got ninja'd in before mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21822554&postcount=4), here's my thoughts on the categories themselves: Distance can probably be combined with Time, since "Time" could be anything that grants you/your party more meaningful actions per combat, or anything that grants your foes less meaningful actions per combat. Power is also a good category, in that it can be used to gain an idea of just how your magic improves the offensive/defensive capabilities of you/your party. If I was to pick a third category for determining T1, it'd probably be a subset of Time called "Preparation" - spells or abilities or whatever that give you long-term time to research your opponent, get an idea of their capabilities, and prepare for specifically them. One of the things T1 has on T2 is that T2 has to hope their stuff is sufficient, while T1 can adapt if they get a night to sleep, or a few days in the local magic mart or whatever. Sorcerers and the like have a lot of options for Power And Time, but Artificers, Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and so on can change up from day-to-day, and that gives them a lot more flexibility in how specifically they go about managing their Power and Time. Anyway, build and spell list!

[OldTrees1]

These are good points. If a T1 must have at least 2 sets of spells, then is the minimum number 6 (or 2*number_of_categories)?

Yes it would be "minimum = # of sets * # of spells in a set" (or an integral for the more precise answer). However remember that different spells placed in the same slot but in different sets need to be qualitatively different.



There are definitely some spells that can solve for all three. Polymorph, minions, wish, summons/ calling. Can you think of three categories that are mutually exclusive, or does it even matter? Are category-spanning spells the best spells, and the only ones necessary to be T1?

Category spanning spells are potent spells. They can make a set all by themselves, but they cannot be used again in another set AND other spells in other sets would need to be qualitatively different in order to be accepted. If you are using Polymorph to fly, then no other flight spells can be counted in these sets.

[Segev]

Yes it would be "minimum = # of sets * # of spells in a set" (or an integral for the more precise answer). However remember that different spells placed in the same slot but in different sets need to be qualitatively different.

Category spanning spells are potent spells. They can make a set all by themselves, but they cannot be used again in another set AND other spells in other sets would need to be qualitatively different in order to be accepted. If you are using Polymorph to fly, then no other flight spells can be counted in these sets.

I'm not sure I agree. The goal is to figure out the minimum number of spells needed to be T1. If polymorph really can achieve all your flight needs, then it can be included. I don't think it actually can, which is why fly and overland flight still have their places, but arbitrarily rejecting one spell from a "set" because it's in another is missing the point, I think. I do think the minimum number, therefore, can be less than (# of sets) * mean(# spells in a set).


One quick advantage of the prepped caster is for day-long buffs; he can potentially "save" spells from the night before by casting them just before bed (if they last at least 16, preferably 24 hours), or he can use Extend Spell to make room on the second day of duration for other spells.

[OldTrees1]

I'm not sure I agree. The goal is to figure out the minimum number of spells needed to be T1. If polymorph really can achieve all your flight needs, then it can be included. I don't think it actually can, which is why fly and overland flight still have their places, but arbitrarily rejecting one spell from a "set" because it's in another is missing the point, I think. I do think the minimum number, therefore, can be less than (# of sets) * mean(# spells in a set).


One quick advantage of the prepped caster is for day-long buffs; he can potentially "save" spells from the night before by casting them just before bed (if they last at least 16, preferably 24 hours), or he can use Extend Spell to make room on the second day of duration for other spells.

In watching this forum argue about Tier 1 and Tier 2 before, I have observed that Tier 1 consensus is limited to those that can do everything multiple ways. Merely having Wish does not make one Tier 1 according to this forum. So you need to complete some number of sets without repeats(neither a repeated spell nor a spell acting as a repeat of another spell).

[GilesTheCleric]

It may behoove us to approach this with an eye towards the difference between T1 and T2. After all, it's widely accepted that a sorcerer is practically the poster-boy for T2. He only has a hammer, but it's a very powerful hammer, so he'll treat every problem like a nail. Often, it will work, but what makes him T2 is that you can work around his hammer so that he can't use it effectively to just trounce your encounter. Some encounters really do still require a wrench.

T1 is the ability to not just bring the right tool to the job, but to always have that tool be the mightiest, most overpowering version of that tool, to boot.

Which is why wizards and other broad-list prepped casters are considered T1: they can change out their tool belt to perfectly address a given challenge.

The somewhat fallacious way that Wizard supremacy is oft touted is by simply naming the spell or spell combo he would use in any given situation to Win. Not just "win," but "Win." It's somewhat fallacious because there are a lot of assumptions that go into him having that spell combo when and where he needs it, starting from assuming he knows the relevant spells at all and ending with him having had them prepared (with some hand-waving about divinations in the middle). It is only somewhat fallacious because it is possible to do about 85% of that kind of preparation and be good enough to really have that flexibility when you need it, even if it's a little difficult in actual play. (85% is a made-up number; I have not done a statistical analysis. I believe it a fair guestimate, but that's all it is.)

So, just taking for granted the generous assumption that the wizard can find out WHAT spells he will need on a given day, the question to me is how many (and which) spells he must have in his spellbook in order to really achieve this.

One reason this is interesting is because it can also allow us to examine the sorcerer. If the wizard needs fewer spells in his spellbook at each spell level than the sorcerer knows at those same spell levels, a sorcerer with the right selection of spells is Tier 1. If the wizard needs more spells than that, the sorcerer could become T1 just by increasing his spells known to match. And there's room to argue that he could do with a few less, since his spontcasting might make up a difference there.
So, would it be accurate to state your position is that in order for the wizard to be T1, they need at least two solutions for each problem? Or, access to at least one of the "best" solutions -- that is, not using Polymorph to solve everything?

We can certainly define T1 as being the difference between switching out spells vs. not being able to, but I don't know if that's really accurate. We would need to set some kind of line for where "best" solution is above "good" solution.

You're right that we could take it as an assumption that every wizard will know what spells they need ahead of time (we'll add divination or contact other plane to every wizard's list), and then we would need to enumerate just about every type of challenge in the game, and figure out what spells are the best solutions to those. It seems like a lot of work to do that, though. There must be a way to generalise these things.

Also, on the post that got ninja'd in before mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21822554&postcount=4), here's my thoughts on the categories themselves: Distance can probably be combined with Time, since "Time" could be anything that grants you/your party more meaningful actions per combat, or anything that grants your foes less meaningful actions per combat. Power is also a good category, in that it can be used to gain an idea of just how your magic improves the offensive/defensive capabilities of you/your party. If I was to pick a third category for determining T1, it'd probably be a subset of Time called "Preparation" - spells or abilities or whatever that give you long-term time to research your opponent, get an idea of their capabilities, and prepare for specifically them. One of the things T1 has on T2 is that T2 has to hope their stuff is sufficient, while T1 can adapt if they get a night to sleep, or a few days in the local magic mart or whatever. Sorcerers and the like have a lot of options for Power And Time, but Artificers, Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and so on can change up from day-to-day, and that gives them a lot more flexibility in how specifically they go about managing their Power and Time. Anyway, build and spell list!

Both of you make a good point. I think they both get back to what you had said before, Vecna -- that we need to find a way to make "sets" of spells that can accomplish the same same challenge, but in such a way that they're not countered by the same defenses.

I think we need to do some work to really determine the types of challenges we face, here, or otherwise Segev has a good point -- a sorc with enough spells known becomes T1, simply because they have enough spells to have a great solution for nearly everything.

[Troacctid]

If we accept that a Wizard is T1 and a Psion is T2, then clearly the minimum number of spells must be more than what the Psion has.

[Pleh]

I think the heart of the struggle here is we are trying to put a hard set entry qualification for a tier which was not designed to have hard set limits.

Are the tiers descriptive or prescriptive?

[Segev]

Descriptive.

There is a delineation. I may be articulating it poorly.

I don't think it requires that the wizard have two solutions to every problem.

I think it requires that the wizard have a tailored solution for any problem.

The sorcerer rarely has a tailored solution, but he has a powerful solution that solves a lot of problems, sometimes by letting him reframe the situation as a problem of his choosing.



Perhaps somebody else would be kind enough to provide a solid definition of the two tiers. I have a conceptual understanding, but the fact that I can't articulate it well reveals that I don't get it as well as I would like.

[AvatarVecna]

Here's some core spells for each category at each level. Also, I added a "Utility" category for stuff not really directly combat related, but still useful for dealing with encounters. It's hardly a complete or optimal list, just a bunch of things I think help that particular category forward at various spell levels. What the "minimum" would be, I'm not sure, but as previously stated, picking up Animate Dead, Polymorph, and Scrying at lvl 7 (and Teleport at lvl 9) is a nice versatile set of spells that come online all around the same time.

Also, I don't it would surprise anybody that Gate, Shapechange, and Wish are all helpful towards every category. :smalltongue:



Spell Level
Power
Preparation
Time
Utility


1st
Color Spray
Protection From Evil
Alarm
Color Spray
Silent Image
Charm Person
Feather Fall


2nd
Resist Energy
Shatter
Rope Trick
Blindness/Deafness
Glitterdust
Web
Detect Thoughts
Knock
Spider Climb


3rd
Dispel Magic
Haste

Displacement
Fly
Hold Person
Fly
Shrink Item


4th
Animate Dead
Black Tentacles
Greater Invisibility
Polymorph
Mnemonic Enhancer
Scrying
Animate Dead
Black Tentacles
Confusion
Polymorph
Resilient Sphere
Animate Dead
Polymorph
Scrying


5th
Cloudkill
Cone Of Cold
Shadow Evocation
Mage's Private Sanctum
Hold Monster
Wall Of Force
Dominate Person
Seeming
Telekinesis
Teleport


6th
Chain Lightning
Disintegrate
Greater Heroism
Contingency
Create Undead
Guards And Wards
Legend Lore
Mage's Lucubration
Planar Binding
Contingency
Flesh To Stone
Control Water
Move Earth
True Seeing


7th
Banishment
Spell Turning
Greater Scrying
Mage's Magnificent Mansion
Forcecage
Insanity
Mass Hold Person
Control Weather
Greater Scrying
Reverse Gravity


8th
Create Greater Undead
Incendiary Cloud
Greater Shadow Evocation
Mind Blank
Polar Ray
Create Greater Undead
Greater Planar Binding
Create Greater Undead
Irresistible Dance
Polymorph Any Object
Create Greater Undead
Discern Location
Polymorph Any Object


9th
Mage's Disjunction
Gate
Shapechange
Wail Of The Banshee
Wish
Gate
Shapechange
Wish
Dominate Monster
Gate
Shapechange
Time Stop
Wish
Astral Projection
Gate
Shapechange
Wish

[Troacctid]

Descriptive.

There is a delineation. I may be articulating it poorly.

I don't think it requires that the wizard have two solutions to every problem.

I think it requires that the wizard have a tailored solution for any problem.

The sorcerer rarely has a tailored solution, but he has a powerful solution that solves a lot of problems, sometimes by letting him reframe the situation as a problem of his choosing.



Perhaps somebody else would be kind enough to provide a solid definition of the two tiers. I have a conceptual understanding, but the fact that I can't articulate it well reveals that I don't get it as well as I would like.

Basically, you need to have more overall power than all of the T2 classes. You can't be T1 if you're at the same power level as... let's say the Sorcerer.

[Segev]

Basically, you need to have more overall power than all of the T2 classes. You can't be T1 if you're at the same power level as... let's say the Sorcerer.

I don't think that's accurate. The difference between T1 and T2 isn't about power, so much as it is about versatility. I've seen T2 builds which are mountains more powerful - in their one schtick - than T1 builds can readily achieve, but they remain T2 because they're good at ONE thing. At least, that's my memory.

[Gusmo]

If we need a testing ground, what about just pulling encounters from modules? A series of encounters like the Battle of Brindol might be a good way to test. Perhaps multiple such series, so that there's more things than you could feasibly specifically prepare for.

[Pleh]

I don't think that's accurate. The difference between T1 and T2 isn't about power, so much as it is about versatility. I've seen T2 builds which are mountains more powerful - in their one schtick - than T1 builds can readily achieve, but they remain T2 because they're good at ONE thing. At least, that's my memory.

My understanding is that you're partly right. I think traditionally there is some fuzzy wiggle room on both sides of the line. T2 might have Mjolnir and a sonic screwdriver, while T1 might not have everything at any one time.

It's the fuzzy lines that make me worried this endeavor might be more problematic than it seems.

Defining the minimum T1 character will require people to generally agree on the definition of a tier.

Anyone got a Miracle prepared today?