Making the most of a middling character with terrible rolls? (Ranger UA)

[Varkhan]

Hey everyone,

I am fairly new to D&D and feel I am missing something. I have a now Level 5 Ranger-UA (Hunter Conclave) and have kind of hit a wall. I started with very low stats because we were rolling for them and I didn't want to risk losing my +4 to Dex. I decided to go with it, because it all made sense roleplay-wise with the way I wanted to play the character. While I'm quite satisfied with the way the adventure's been going, I feel like I haven't had the chance to shine in combat very much. Once or twice, my damage output was instrumental in taking down our foes, but sadly I tend to get focused if there's a large creature and I also am plagued to roll very, very poorly on saves (or anything really).

I don't know how to best serve my group in combat, other than shooting stuff a lot. With advantage on Initiative, due to Natural Explorer, and advantage on the first attack if the target hasn't acted this encounter, I should be doing okay. I have a feeling I'm not using Stealth enough as I should to get the drop on my enemies. I think maybe I am also terrible at positioning myself in combat, so thinking more strategically in that regard would help my party get opportunity attacks should the enemy insist on getting to me.

Multiclassing is not really allowed at the table, but my DM and I managed to agree that Grave Domain Cleric made more sense, because of the way the story and my character have evolved. I was thinking about dipping into that ASAP, in order to get spells like Guidance, Bless, Guiding Bolt and Bane which seem very useful.

Any help you can provide is appreciated.

As of Level 5, my sheet looks like this:
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 4

Spells:
Lvl 1: Hunter's Mark, Cure Wounds
Lvl 2: Pass Without Trace, Spike Growth

Feat: Sharpshooter (instead of ASI at Level 4)
Favored Enemy: Undead

[Waterdeep Merch]

Those are actually fine stats for a Ranger. You're very dex-heavy, and you've certainly got that covered.

Remember to absolutely abuse Sharpshooter. Now that you've got Extra Attack, you should rarely choose not to take the -5 attack for +10 damage. Don't forget to blast Hunter's Mark before you do it, too.

Cleric would be... meh. Don't get me wrong, Guidance and Bless are pretty great (though Hunter's Mark really outclasses Bless unless your team's missing a dedicated buffer). Guiding Bolt is... crap. It's not all that great on clerics. It's especially bad on you, given that you've only a 14 in Wisdom and have a pretty fantastic regular ranged attack, with Extra Attack to boot. Bane's fine. Not exciting, but I've seen it do some good.

Magic Initiate for Guidance, Bless OR Bane, and maybe Spare the Dying for flavor reasons, would fit your character without interrupting your build.

[Malifice]

Hey everyone,

I am fairly new to D&D and feel I am missing something. I have a now Level 5 Ranger-UA (Hunter Conclave) and have kind of hit a wall. I started with very low stats because we were rolling for them and I didn't want to risk losing my +4 to Dex. I decided to go with it, because it all made sense roleplay-wise with the way I wanted to play the character. While I'm quite satisfied with the way the adventure's been going, I feel like I haven't had the chance to shine in combat very much. Once or twice, my damage output was instrumental in taking down our foes, but sadly I tend to get focused if there's a large creature and I also am plagued to roll very, very poorly on saves (or anything really).

I don't know how to best serve my group in combat, other than shooting stuff a lot. With advantage on Initiative, due to Natural Explorer, and advantage on the first attack if the target hasn't acted this encounter, I should be doing okay. I have a feeling I'm not using Stealth enough as I should to get the drop on my enemies. I think maybe I am also terrible at positioning myself in combat, so thinking more strategically in that regard would help my party get opportunity attacks should the enemy insist on getting to me.

Multiclassing is not really allowed at the table, but my DM and I managed to agree that Grave Domain Cleric made more sense, because of the way the story and my character have evolved. I was thinking about dipping into that ASAP, in order to get spells like Guidance, Bless, Guiding Bolt and Bane which seem very useful.

Any help you can provide is appreciated.

As of Level 5, my sheet looks like this:
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 4

Spells:
Lvl 1: Hunter's Mark, Cure Wounds
Lvl 2: Pass Without Trace, Spike Growth

Feat: Sharpshooter (instead of ASI at Level 4)
Favored Enemy: Undead

Your PC is a puny and socially outcast loner with marksmanship skills? It now looks as if he's take a fascination with the dead?

Stay away from bell towers and book suppositories.

[Varkhan]

Those are actually fine stats for a Ranger. You're very dex-heavy, and you've certainly got that covered.

Remember to absolutely abuse Sharpshooter. Now that you've got Extra Attack, you should rarely choose not to take the -5 attack for +10 damage. Don't forget to blast Hunter's Mark before you do it, too.

Cleric would be... meh. Don't get me wrong, Guidance and Bless are pretty great (though Hunter's Mark really outclasses Bless unless your team's missing a dedicated buffer). Guiding Bolt is... crap. It's not all that great on clerics. It's especially bad on you, given that you've only a 14 in Wisdom and have a pretty fantastic regular ranged attack, with Extra Attack to boot. Bane's fine. Not exciting, but I've seen it do some good.

Magic Initiate for Guidance, Bless OR Bane, and maybe Spare the Dying for flavor reasons, would fit your character without interrupting your build.
I tend to be very self-conscious about using Sharpshooter, but now that I managed to negate the penalty with Fighting Style and my Proficiency Bonus, I really should abuse it.

The Grave Domain ability to use Spare the Dying as a bonus action, and to automatically roll max heals on Cure Wounds in the same turn would prove quite useful, compared to Foe Slayer (in the short-term at least) I'm not married to the multiclassing idea, I could just as well remain Ranger for the rest of the adventure.

What would you advise my next steps be? Should I get my next ASI as soon as possible? Do I get +2 Wisdom to make my current and future spells a little more potent? Or like you said, go Magic Initiate and grab either Cleric or Druid spells? I realize a lot of spells compete with Hunter's Mark and Concentration, so that might not be great.


Your PC is a puny and socially outcast loner with marksmanship skills? It now looks as if he's take a fascination with the dead?

Stay away from bell towers and book suppositories.

Already steering clear of those.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I tend to be very self-conscious about using Sharpshooter, but now that I managed to negate the penalty with Fighting Style and my Proficiency Bonus, I really should abuse it.

The Grave Domain ability to use Spare the Dying as a bonus action, and to automatically roll max heals on Cure Wounds in the same turn would prove quite useful, compared to Foe Slayer (in the short-term at least) I'm not married to the multiclassing idea, I could just as well remain Ranger for the rest of the adventure.

What would you advise my next steps be? Should I get my next ASI as soon as possible? Do I get +2 Wisdom to make my current and future spells a little more potent? Or like you said, go Magic Initiate and grab either Cleric or Druid spells? I realize a lot of spells compete with Hunter's Mark and Concentration, so that might not be great.

Level 6 gets you Greater Favored Enemy, which is a pretty good buff for you overall. I'd wait until you at least get that before looking at multiclassing. Cleric and Druid are pretty good picks for a Ranger looking for better utility (and if it fits your theme better, by all means. Theme trumps optimization, if that's your reason you're doing it right), but the issue is that neither will improve your basic ranged abilities while later Ranger spells and abilities absolutely would. The trick shots are absolutely worth sticking to the class.

You can let your Dex lay at 18 for now if you'd like to pick up a fun feat like Magic Initiate or even start dipping into other classes. 18 is reasonably good. Just remember to weigh whatever you'd do instead against the improvements Dex packs- attack (vital for Sharpshooter), damage, armor, initiative, stealth, and saves primarily. Dex is a god stat if you're lucky enough to only need it, and you're that lucky.

[Aerogellin]

I also am plagued to roll very, very poorly on saves (or anything really).
I'd suggest checking the balance on your dice! It's not uncommon for dice to have imperfections inside them that affect the weight or each side and can cause your dice to land more frequently on certain numbers. To do this you saturate a bowl of water with salt (Dissolve salt into water until it won't dissolve anymore. Warm water will dissolve it fastest, and I'd suggest using a small bowl so you don't have to use as much salt. Cups work too). Once you have enough dissolved salt your dice should float when you set it on the surface of the water. Spin it around in there and if it keeps coming up on a certain side you know you have a die weighted to that side. Plenty of Youtube videos on this if you'd rather follow instructions in that format.

There's also a pretty little 1st level hunter spell hidden away in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion that gives resistance to a bunch of elemental damage types as a reaction. It's called Absorb Elements, and I'd highly suggest it if those damage types get thrown around in your campaign. Just a shame that the damage boost is for melee attacks only!


I don't know how to best serve my group in combat, other than shooting stuff a lot. With advantage on Initiative, due to Natural Explorer, and advantage on the first attack if the target hasn't acted this encounter, I should be doing okay. I have a feeling I'm not using Stealth enough as I should to get the drop on my enemies. I think maybe I am also terrible at positioning myself in combat, so thinking more strategically in that regard would help my party get opportunity attacks should the enemy insist on getting to me.
You're a hunter, shooting stuff a lot is what you do best! Definitely follow Waterdeepmerch's suggestion of using Sharpshooter a lot, especially if you're using Fighting Style: Archery (Which you should). There's a whole spreadsheet made by Xetheral for the -5/+10 Great Weapon Mastery (GWM) and Sharpshooter (SS) mechanic past the Guides, Tables, and other useful tools for 5E D&D link in the "5e Notable Threads" sticky at the top of this forum. It can be a touch confusing to interpret, but the general consensus I see from lurking on this forum is that for archers the only time you shouldn't use it is when you just need to do a little more damage, or you're fighting an enemy with a ton of AC.

"Stealth, Hiding, and you!" by Noctaem is a great little guide to stealth that also goes into the errata for hiding, also in the same spot as the GWM spreadsheet. That said as an Unearthed Arcana hunter you shouldn't worry about it too much. Until you can hide as a bonus action at 14th there's no sense in hiding in combat. Trading two attacks (With extra attack) for disadvantage on a single attack ~if~ you hide (You lose hidden status after your first attack, hit or miss) just isn't economical. Hiding before combat shouldn't be an issue either, unless you expect to do so poorly on your initiative roll that there's no enemies that go after you and give you advantage on all your attacks due to Natural Explorer.

Positioning is definitely something to focus on, and remember that if you're using a ranged weapon you probably have some good range on it so don't be afraid to ask if you can stand off the map and force enemies trying to come to you to use a full round of movement, maybe two, just to get to you.

Hunters Mark is your one of your biggest DPS increases, especially with extra attack, so don't forget to make constant use of it. Remember to switch to new targets, and keep concentrating on it between combats to keep from having to drop extra spell slots.

Do I get +2 Wisdom to make my current and future spells a little more potent?
Personally I'd max our your dex, the extra to hit, damage, AC, etc etc etc is just far too useful. You're also not running spells that really need saves, so spell potency probably isn't a big issue for you. If you really want to go for Magic Initiate,

That's about all I've got for now. Good hunting!

(Just de-lurked and don't have the post count to drop links to the materials I posted above, so if you have trouble finding them Varkhan, ask somebody else if they might want to go for it.)

[Varkhan]

I appreciate the dice advice. My DM allowed us to use physical dice instead of Roll20, so I might have to go that route. My rolls appear to be slightly less worse.


There's also a pretty little 1st level hunter spell hidden away in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion that gives resistance to a bunch of elemental damage types as a reaction. It's called Absorb Elements, and I'd highly suggest it if those damage types get thrown around in your campaign. Just a shame that the damage boost is for melee attacks only!
I totally thought about that, but decided against it for the fight that was coming. I'm probably going to take off Spike Growth in favor of Absorb Elements when I level up to 6 as it seems more reliable.


Remember to switch to new targets, and keep concentrating on it between combats to keep from having to drop extra spell slots.
We rarely have more than one encounter per long rest, so I have not run into this problem yet. I'll make sure to keep this in mind should the need arise.


(Just de-lurked and don't have the post count to drop links to the materials I posted above, so if you have trouble finding them Varkhan, ask somebody else if they might want to go for it.)
No worries, I have already found most of those resources. Thank you so much for your help!

[Citan]

Those are actually fine stats for a Ranger. You're very dex-heavy, and you've certainly got that covered.

Remember to absolutely abuse Sharpshooter. Now that you've got Extra Attack, you should rarely choose not to take the -5 attack for +10 damage. Don't forget to blast Hunter's Mark before you do it, too.

Cleric would be... meh. Don't get me wrong, Guidance and Bless are pretty great (though Hunter's Mark really outclasses Bless unless your team's missing a dedicated buffer). Guiding Bolt is... crap. It's not all that great on clerics. It's especially bad on you, given that you've only a 14 in Wisdom and have a pretty fantastic regular ranged attack, with Extra Attack to boot. Bane's fine. Not exciting, but I've seen it do some good.

Magic Initiate for Guidance, Bless OR Bane, and maybe Spare the Dying for flavor reasons, would fit your character without interrupting your build.
Wow.
So the OP says he already rarely hits anything, and you suggest he uses a feature that provides a -5 penalty on a regular basis?

Impressive advice.
You know, ACTUALLY reading the OP might help when you want to suggest back. XD

To OP: don't know the Grave domain, but having Bless in your set will certainly help you, much more than Bane (which risks failing in the first place).
It does eat at Hunter's Mark though so if you were using it regularly it's a heavy trade-off. Still, better hit more often for less than his never for more right?

If you still feel you have much problems in hitting, maybe consider...
- Asking for a pal to help you (Bardic Inspiration on you, Slow or Blind or Entangle or Hold for a caster on your enemy, Lucky, etc).
- Taking the Crossbow Expert so you can shoot at melee range while having a Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue friend Shove your target.
More generally, trying to find any way to provide yourself advantage.


If, even in spite of all of this, you really feel you never hit when it really counts, then I suggest discussing with your DM some middle way/homebrew to get Manoeuvers (Precision Attack), even if you have to lose spell knowns or slots from Ranger.
(If you didn't multiclass in Cleric yet, I'd suggest you ask your DM to switch to Spellless Ranger).

Good luck!

EDIT: Wow...

I tend to be very self-conscious about using Sharpshooter, but now that I managed to negate the penalty with Fighting Style and my Proficiency Bonus, I really should abuse it.

Already steering clear of those.
Well, nevermind what I said above (although it still counts), THAT is your problem here.
If you use Sharpshooter as your bread and butter while you know start to fight enemies with higher HP and AC, it's exactly the same as if you decided to fight your current enemies as a lvl 1 character.
The proficiency and DEX bumps are here to help you keep your chance to hit up to date as the enemies gain more defense.
You are not supposed to use the high risk/reward feature unless either...
- You are pretty sure you WILL hit whatever happens (because of advantage for example, or you know your target has very low AC).
- Or you know that even a full miss on your part does not create any significant danger for your party.




What would you advise my next steps be? Should I get my next ASI as soon as possible? Do I get +2 Wisdom to make my current and future spells a little more potent? Or like you said, go Magic Initiate and grab either Cleric or Druid spells? I realize a lot of spells compete with Hunter's Mark and Concentration, so that might not be great.
Let's think about not contradicting yourself here.
Hunter's Mark is concentration, Bless is concentration.

Either your usual contribution to the party is focusing on one big, meaty enemy from start to finish, then Hunter's Mark with occasional Sharshooter perk will suit you (= don't multiclass "for Bless").

Or you usually prefer taking out smaller enemies and want to increase your sustained overall damage, then dipping Bless is the right choice by far (especially if there is nobody else in your party that has it, because you also buff 2 friends), because it will help you activate Sharpshooter a bit more often (just a bit).

Honestly, I'd say go with Cleric if you have two other people with powerful attacks or riders (Barbarian / Fighter / Warlock / Paladin / Monk / ranged Rogue).
Otherwise, just go with your gut. :)

About WIS, I honestly wouldn't care about it unless you want to use some archery-themed spells like Ensnaring Strike. Considering you already have "too much choice" for your concentration with Bless and Hunter's Mark... ^^

[Specter]

Hey man, you're good to go. Just accept you're going to fail CHA saves (but they're very rare anyway).

If you feel like you're too frail, grab Resilient (CON) at 8th level. It's a good feat for any caster and combatant.

[Vorpalchicken]

Stay away from bell towers and book suppositories.

Most people should stay away from book suppositories. That sort of "cramming" is not recommended.

[pwykersotz]

Most people should stay away from book suppositories. That sort of "cramming" is not recommended.

Dangit...I saw that post and whipped through the rest of this thread to make a similar comment. Beaten to the punch. :smalltongue:

[Waterdeep Merch]

Wow.
So the OP says he already rarely hits anything, and you suggest he uses a feature that provides a -5 penalty on a regular basis?

Impressive advice.
You know, ACTUALLY reading the OP might help when you want to suggest back. XD

I'm aware. The math tends to work in favor of using Sharpshooter against just about everything that isn't heavily armored. It sounds like he just has a rash of bad luck.

I used to avoid high risk/high reward scenarios in games because I felt insanely unlucky as a player (there was that time I rolled something like two dozen dice needing 3's and better, failed on all of them, got a reroll, and STILL didn't get a single success...). I only got over it when I simply did the best the best I could, and let the dice roll where they will. It's hard to get over that jinx feeling. What's really important is remembering- it's just a feeling. Get yourself into the best position possible, use the best tactics you know, and don't try factoring for luck. Don't let fear stop you from trying your best.

[Varkhan]

snip
Thanks for your response! I usually save Sharpshooter for the first turn, since I have advantage over targets who have not acted in said first turn. I thought I was doing something wrong by playing it close to the vest, hence why I was so eager to start using it more. I realize it might not be wise to abuse it.

I think I prefer the "killing off smaller enemies" idea, especially since my party isn't exactly starved for damage. We have an offensive Cleric, a Barbarian, a melee Rogue and a Sorcerer. All can handle themselves well and I would be more reliable.

Let's say I grab Cleric 1 at character level 9, what would be a good set of spells to get aside from Bless? I know that spells tremendously reduce my damage output since I have two attacks, but what would help my "Ranged Support" idea? Do I get Healing Word instead of Cure Wounds? I would be Spellcaster level 5, so I would have access to 3rd level spells. Would the two 3rd level spell slots only be for Cleric spells, or could I use them for Ranger spells?

[DanyBallon]

The Alert feat (for the +5 to initiative) and boosting your Dex will help you out to act first more often. Making your ranger 1st level ability be usedmore often as well

[Specter]

Let's say I grab Cleric 1 at character level 9, what would be a good set of spells to get aside from Bless? I know that spells tremendously reduce my damage output since I have two attacks, but what would help my "Ranged Support" idea? Do I get Healing Word instead of Cure Wounds? I would be Spellcaster level 5, so I would have access to 3rd level spells. Would the two 3rd level spell slots only be for Cleric spells, or could I use them for Ranger spells?

Healing Word and Shield of Faith. Because someone always drops dead, and enemies gang up on you.


But I'd only multiclass after level 8. Greater Fav. Enemy, Hunter's Defense and an ASIare too good at this point.


If you're not set about the domain, Life+Goodberry makes great healing, and War gives you more offense.

[djreynolds]

Stay away from bell towers and book suppositories.

Great Movie




As of Level 5, my sheet looks like this:
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 4

Spells:
Lvl 1: Hunter's Mark, Cure Wounds
Lvl 2: Pass Without Trace, Spike Growth

Feat: Sharpshooter (instead of ASI at Level 4)
Favored Enemy: Undead

The thing that sucks is you can only have one concentration spell up at a time.

Hunter's mark is great, no doubt.

Bless from cleric is just fine, but sometimes 1d4 doesn't help with SS if you've rolled low, and it is one minute

I recommend 2 levels of rogue, this way you can use cunning action and your bonus action to hide, and expertise in stealth will aid you.

Basically, you shoot 2, bonus action hide (when possible) and then next round you will have advantage again if your stealth beats their perception. Now you are rolling 2d20's every time, just like a barbarian is using reckless attack with GWM... you are using your BA (which is only needed to remark hunter's mark) to hide, thus gaining advantage, when possible but as an archer their should be some terrain and shadows and such

[Varkhan]

Healing Word and Shield of Faith. Because someone always drops dead, and enemies gang up on you.


But I'd only multiclass after level 8. Greater Fav. Enemy, Hunter's Defense and an ASIare too good at this point.


If you're not set about the domain, Life+Goodberry makes great healing, and War gives you more offense.
I am always very conflicted as to what to do next, because it's always a battle between flavor, usefulness and combat superiority. I'm entertaining the thought of getting Alert and/or Lucky, since they would help mitigate some of the problems mentioned above. But then going for the the Dex increase is just too good to pass up, as you mentioned and also partially fixes my problems.

In addition, Grave is pretty much the only Domain that make sense for my DM. I might be able to convince him to go Death Domain, but I don't know that it would even be worth it. I do like the idea of using the undead's tools against them, so to speak.

[Citan]

Thanks for your response! I usually save Sharpshooter for the first turn, since I have advantage over targets who have not acted in said first turn. I thought I was doing something wrong by playing it close to the vest, hence why I was so eager to start using it more. I realize it might not be wise to abuse it.

I think I prefer the "killing off smaller enemies" idea, especially since my party isn't exactly starved for damage. We have an offensive Cleric, a Barbarian, a melee Rogue and a Sorcerer. All can handle themselves well and I would be more reliable.

Let's say I grab Cleric 1 at character level 9, what would be a good set of spells to get aside from Bless? I know that spells tremendously reduce my damage output since I have two attacks, but what would help my "Ranged Support" idea? Do I get Healing Word instead of Cure Wounds? I would be Spellcaster level 5, so I would have access to 3rd level spells. Would the two 3rd level spell slots only be for Cleric spells, or could I use them for Ranger spells?
Wonder why you would wait so late to get your Cleric dip (especially with your party composition: you can free Cleric's concentration so he can put on Spirit Guardians instead, and still have yourself, Rogue and Barbarian be more reliable and resilient) but putting that aside...
- Healing Words. Healing Words, Healing Words, Healing Words. This means you have two people in your party that are able to get someone up while still contributing in their turn damage-wise.
- Command: very versatile, very useful. Don't remember if you have high WIS or not though, so it may be less useful with only 14 WIS, unless you target creatures which are known for being weak against this save.
- Guiding Bolt: niche ability that can shine for your party (for your melee Rogue), but not sure again about overall efficiency with +2. On the bright side, it's an "attack" so it benefits from Bless.
- Sanctuary: generally situational, but can really help when it happens. Classic use-case is protecting a caster preparing a Tiny Hut, but well, you don't have one in your party. XD Still, basically any situation when someone in your party has to concentrate on a spell / focus on a task and can not afford to attack enemies nor defend himself. Or on yourself when you just want to flee from a fight. With an openminded DM and good tactic to present, can also be used to prepare a living bait to control the flow of a battle (at least if you have someone that trust in his allies with his life XD).


I am always very conflicted as to what to do next, because it's always a battle between flavor, usefulness and combat superiority. I'm entertaining the thought of getting Alert and/or Lucky, since they would help mitigate some of the problems mentioned above. But then going for the the Dex increase is just too good to pass up, as you mentioned and also partially fixes my problems.

In addition, Grave is pretty much the only Domain that make sense for my DM. I might be able to convince him to go Death Domain, but I don't know that it would even be worth it. I do like the idea of using the undead's tools against them, so to speak.
Nop. Definitely not worth it.
1st level benefit of Death is "twin Chill Touch" which is usually far worse for you as a DEX Hunter Ranger than your Sharpshooter attacks.
1st level auto-spells Ray of Sickness is also relying on your WIS, so same critic. False Life you have with Grave.
And proficiencies are redundant.
On the other hand, all Grave features are independant of your WIS and directly benefitting to your party (ESPECIALLY the "max healing" that you can use with a upcast Healing Words or Cure Wounds).
AND you get heavy armor proficiency for the occasional situations where you prefer having a higher AC at the loss of mobility.

By the way, about using Sharpshooter...

I'm aware. The math tends to work in favor of using Sharpshooter against just about everything that isn't heavily armored. It sounds like he just has a rash of bad luck.

I used to avoid high risk/high reward scenarios in games because I felt insanely unlucky as a player (there was that time I rolled something like two dozen dice needing 3's and better, failed on all of them, got a reroll, and STILL didn't get a single success...). I only got over it when I simply did the best the best I could, and let the dice roll where they will. It's hard to get over that jinx feeling. What's really important is remembering- it's just a feeling. Get yourself into the best position possible, use the best tactics you know, and don't try factoring for luck. Don't let fear stop you from trying your best.
I'm surprised by what you say honestl
http://andrewgelman.com/2014/07/12/dnd-5e-advantage-disadvantage-probability/

Currently OP has 18 DEX, Archery Style, lvl 5 (+3), so a total bonus of +4+2+3 = 11.
Let's take a usual "medium armor range" AC, which is 15.
With his bonus, he would need only to roll 4 or more. Easy enough.
With Sharpshooter malus, he would need to roll 9 or more. Still easy enough?
Well, maybe, or maybe not: you lose 25% chance to hit.
You just went from "a miss would be very bad luck" to "hey, I'll hit him, probably".
Worse, some of the classic tactics that work wonder to provide advantage for melee (like shoving) work against ranged.
Only paralysed condition, fear and some specific spells such as Faerie Fire can provide non-discriminating advantage.

Let's consider the case (with average damage for simplicity).
First, Extra Attack without Sharpshooter, both hit: (1d8+4)*2 = 26
Second, Extra Attack with Sharpshooter, one hit: (1d8+4+10) = 28
Third, Extra Attack with Sharpshooter, both hit = 28*2=56.

Probability of happening (if I'm right though, maths studies are so far away... ;)).
First (both hits, without Sharpshooter): 0.85*0.85 = 0.7225
Second: (one hit, one miss): 0.60*0.40= 0.24 (not sure about this result, seems strange to me).
Third (both hits with Sharpshooter): 0.60*0.60 = 0.36

I'll let someone with still current maths skills do the evaluations. I'm probably wrong because these results does not have any logic to me... XD

So, well, if your party is fine with someone having wavy damage contribution, good. It's probably not always the case though. With that said, nothing prevents a Ranger to try his first attack with Sharpshooter, and on a miss, play safe to deal at least some damage. But it will be still a net loss compared to playing safe. :)
Agreed that just one successful Sharp attack usually equals two successful non-Sharp attacks, so I understand your point of view as long as you can target the same enemy on a given turn. :)

[8wGremlin]

Dear OP:

You are a damage dealer - that is the best way to serve your party, you do it well (on paper at least)
You are an Alpha Striker, it is your job to kill it with extream prejudice.
Killing and enemy fast, means your teammates take less damage, this is a good thing.

You should be using a bow, or hand crossbow (keep in in your off hand, and don't have anything else in your other)

Spam as many attacks as you can, if you know or can work out that you are fighting an opponent with AC 15 or less then use Sharpshooter all the time.

If you could take hand crossbow make sure you get the feat: Crossbow mastery.
This allows you to shoot without disadvantage when an enemy is next to you.
This also allows you to ignore the load quality on crossbows
This also allows you to fire another shot as a bonus action.

Don't let the small damage dice of the hand crossbow fool you.
1d6+4 per shot at 2 shots from Attack action.
1d6+4 for the bonus action shot from Crossbow mastery.

See if you can change to Dark Stalker conclave, this will give you
Dark vision, and an extra attack when you act first. (an extra 1d6+4)

Make sure you have the archery fighting style.
also does your game focus on undead, because picking Humanoids may be better, as it applies to more creatures.

rolling that up, in your first turn, give that you go first by winning initiative:
first shot - normal, to gauge target's AC (if AC 15 or less then sharpshooter), your advantage to hit should cover it!

2 shots with normal Attack action
1 shot with Dark stalker bonus shot
1 shot with bonus action - crossbow mastery

each shot doing 1d6+4 (+2 of humanoid) +10 (sharpshooter)

so 4d6+24+30 (first shot as AC finder) = 54+4d6 appox 68 av damage.
or if you know the AC go all out... sharpshoot every shot = 78 av damage.

don't pollute the build, with multiclassing with cleric.
if you want to multiclass do it with either Fighter, for action surge @level 2, or Rogue(assassin)

Keep up the good work, you are the fulfilling the Ranger role well!

[Biggstick]

Other people have said it, and it sounds like you've said it too.

Get +2 Dex.

Get Crossbow Expert.

Convince your casters to get Haste/Bless/Greater Invisibility cast on you.

Proceed with major butt kicking in damage.

[KnotaGuru]

Agree that multi-classing with cleric (or any caster class) is a waste of time. Let the real cleric cast bless when the party needs a little boost and your wisdom isn't your primary stat to justify using guiding bolt or bane. Your job is is to deal damage, and rangers are really good at it. Wasting a round to cast a spell is a loss of [[2d8 (longbow)+2d6 (hunter's mark)+8 (dex)+20 (sharpshooter)]] 44 avg damage and sucks up your concentration. If you really want to multi-class, dip rogue for expertise, sneak attack, and cunning action.

If you're struggling to hit, finding ways to gain advantage (blinded, paralyzed, restrained, stunned) is better. The rogue dip works since you can hide from enemies as a bonus action with cunning action (rogue 2) granting you advantage. Also, start working as a team. Hold person (cleric & sorcerer)/monster (sorcerer) spells cause paralyze. Blindness (cleric & sorcerer) spell (no concentration required) works well. Greater invisibility (sorcerer can twin this) or haste (sorcerer can twin this too) are amazing buffs for heavy hitters such as a ranger & barbarian. Web spell (sorcerer) causes restrained.

At level 8 (assuming you stayed ranger) grab another boost to DEX (for more to hit, damage, saves, initiative) or a fun feat like lucky or alert. Or, grab crossbow expert to use a hand crossbow for more attacks and the ability to use it it melee. Then you gain advantage when enemies are prone as long as you are within 5' when you shoot them execution style.

[Citan]

Agree that multi-classing with cleric (or any caster class) is a waste of time. Let the real cleric cast bless when the party needs a little boost and your wisdom isn't your primary stat to justify using guiding bolt or bane. Your job is is to deal damage, and rangers are really good at it. Wasting a round to cast a spell is a loss of [[2d8 (longbow)+2d6 (hunter's mark)+8 (dex)+20 (sharpshooter)]] 44 avg damage and sucks up your concentration. If you really want to multi-class, dip rogue for expertise, sneak attack, and cunning action.

If you're struggling to hit, finding ways to gain advantage (blinded, paralyzed, restrained, stunned) is better. The rogue dip works since you can hide from enemies as a bonus action with cunning action (rogue 2) granting you advantage. Also, start working as a team. Hold person (cleric & sorcerer)/monster (sorcerer) spells cause paralyze. Blindness (cleric & sorcerer) spell (no concentration required) works well. Greater invisibility (sorcerer can twin this) or haste (sorcerer can twin this too) are amazing buffs for heavy hitters such as a ranger & barbarian. Web spell (sorcerer) causes restrained.

At level 8 (assuming you stayed ranger) grab another boost to DEX (for more to hit, damage, saves, initiative) or a fun feat like lucky or alert. Or, grab crossbow expert to use a hand crossbow for more attacks and the ability to use it it melee. Then you gain advantage when enemies are prone as long as you are within 5' when you shoot them execution style.
1. "Cleric is a waste of time"
Confer previous post: Bless eats a turn, but frees up Cleric concentration for better spell, affects other people, and will easily make up for lost damage in the 2-3 next turns. Especially on a character that can start and keep in the fight from further away.
For the same reason, having the ability to wear heavy armor is a nice touch for some fights.
Having someone else being able to cast Healing Words can also be a party saver, in case (which should happen a fair number of times) Cleric's turn and down ally's turn are fairly apart compared to you and ally...

Agreed that any offensive spell would probably be a waste of slot and action though.

2. How do you expect a Ranger (with low WIS) to gain advantage from restrained/paralysed/blinded/stunned?
As you said, it means you have to get another party character casting a suck spell. You said Cleric several times... But Cleric will be already concentrating on Bless in your hypothesis!
It also requires Sorcerer to have actually learned these spells (agreed, he should at least know either Blindness or Slow or Hold Person, these three are too good).
And these are tactics that are repeatable but requires heavy resource expenditure, and they also can fail.

3. Rogue is a nice dip, but to hide from enemies, you first are required to be away from their view. Again, it will not be always an easy condition to fulfill.

Creating party tactics is indeed the most important, but that's precisely why bringing more options is good.

[joaber]

I definitly would grab goodberry instead of cure wounds.

In my table at lvl 7 with a OotV paladin PAM, battlemaster fighter GWM greatsword and Valor bard sharpshooter, bless is the best use for paladin concentration if the encounter have at least 3 rounds. The added with less miss of all three is way bigger than first paladin action + 1d6 for each attack for only him.

But, he didn't need to multiclass to get only bless.

I don't like bane, cus there is a ST, so in the end, only one or two creatures will be affected, you need one action and concentration.

[tieren]

War cleric has a channel divinity that can help you hit more accurately.

I'd recommend picking up magic initiate for find familiar and get yourself an owl pet that can fly-by your enemies and give you advantage on the attack without taking AoO.

If MCing was more of an option I would recommend dipping rogue, you'd get cunning action to make stealthing and repositioning easier, but also sneak attack dice, and some low level rogue stuff is actually high level ranger stuff (evasion, uncanny dodge, etc...).

[KnotaGuru]

1. "Cleric is a waste of time"
Confer previous post: Bless eats a turn, but frees up Cleric concentration for better spell, affects other people, and will easily make up for lost damage in the 2-3 next turns. Especially on a character that can start and keep in the fight from further away.
For the same reason, having the ability to wear heavy armor is a nice touch for some fights.
Having someone else being able to cast Healing Words can also be a party saver, in case (which should happen a fair number of times) Cleric's turn and down ally's turn are fairly apart compared to you and ally...

Agreed that any offensive spell would probably be a waste of slot and action though.

2. How do you expect a Ranger (with low WIS) to gain advantage from restrained/paralysed/blinded/stunned?
As you said, it means you have to get another party character casting a suck spell. You said Cleric several times... But Cleric will be already concentrating on Bless in your hypothesis!
It also requires Sorcerer to have actually learned these spells (agreed, he should at least know either Blindness or Slow or Hold Person, these three are too good).
And these are tactics that are repeatable but requires heavy resource expenditure, and they also can fail.

3. Rogue is a nice dip, but to hide from enemies, you first are required to be away from their view. Again, it will not be always an easy condition to fulfill.

Creating party tactics is indeed the most important, but that's precisely why bringing more options is good.

The cleric should be using bless some of the time. It's not the best spell all of time. And why would he want heavy armor with an 18 DEX & 8 STR? With a rogue dip & expertise in stealth & perception, he could be hidden before the fight even begins. Clerics have lots of perks & options. Just not the best dip in this instance imo.

[Citan]

The cleric should be using bless some of the time. It's not the best spell all of time. And why would he want heavy armor with an 18 DEX & 8 STR? With a rogue dip & expertise in stealth & perception, he could be hidden before the fight even begins. Clerics have lots of perks & options. Just not the best dip in this instance imo.
Sure, it's not the best spell all of time, and Cleric should be using it sometimes. But Cleric could also be wanting to use Bane, Hold Person, Spirit Guardians (most probably Spirit Guardians first since he's "an offensive Cleric" per OP), and keep some 1st slots for Healing Words also.
To tell otherwise, Cleric has much more competition for both concentration and slots, so anyone that can free him, even partially, of one of his basic mission gives him a big boon. OP has only Hunter's Mark and Spike Growth, with the latter being complex to use without harming/bothering his melee allies.
Consider also that we are talking about an "offensive" Cleric, so as I understand it, one in melee, risking loss of concentration every turn because he will be targeted by attacks.
The one spewing arrows from afar on the back line will keep his concentration much more easily.

As for Heavy Armor, it's because currently he has max 16 AC. In most fights, it will be better to have 16 AC and full mobility. But every time party knows they will have an encounter of large scale (= hundreds feets of distance), losing 10 feet of mobility may be worth it to gain +2 AC against all ranged attacks (and occasional melee attacks).
I never said it's a solid benefit though, it's obviously a niche use.
At least, until/unless OP gets Crossbow Expert. Then it becomes a very solid boost: OP can gang up in melee range with his pals with more safety (+2 AC does make a significant difference when you are in the front lines ;)) and unleash his full power with Sharpshooter after one of them Shoved a creature to the ground.

Agreed that Rogue's Expertise is great, but again, how would he hide? Unless the campaign settings make it so that there are many places to disappear from view (like open ruins) or party lands some spells to provide total cover (Sorcerer's Fog Cloud/Darkness), the best he can manage is to be hidden on first round. Then on his first attack, whether he misses or hit, his position will be revealed.
As for the other uses of Cunning Action, someone who shoots enemies from 600 feet away should rarely need them in the first place.

I love a 2-Rogue dip as any other, but OP does not seem keen in multiclassing more than 1 level (especially since he plays the UA version of Ranger which gives arguably better features on most levels). So for one level, Cleric synergizes much better imo for the reasons detailed above. :=)

[Biggstick]

Sure, it's not the best spell all of time, and Cleric should be using it sometimes. But Cleric could also be wanting to use Bane, Hold Person, Spirit Guardians (most probably Spirit Guardians first since he's "an offensive Cleric" per OP), and keep some 1st slots for Healing Words also.
To tell otherwise, Cleric has much more competition for both concentration and slots, so anyone that can free him, even partially, of one of his basic mission gives him a big boon. OP has only Hunter's Mark and Spike Growth, with the latter being complex to use without harming/bothering his melee allies.
Consider also that we are talking about an "offensive" Cleric, so as I understand it, one in melee, risking loss of concentration every turn because he will be targeted by attacks.
The one spewing arrows from afar on the back line will keep his concentration much more easily.

As for Heavy Armor, it's because currently he has max 16 AC. In most fights, it will be better to have 16 AC and full mobility. But every time party knows they will have an encounter of large scale (= hundreds feets of distance), losing 10 feet of mobility may be worth it to gain +2 AC against all ranged attacks (and occasional melee attacks).
I never said it's a solid benefit though, it's obviously a niche use.
At least, until/unless OP gets Crossbow Expert. Then it becomes a very solid boost: OP can gang up in melee range with his pals with more safety (+2 AC does make a significant difference when you are in the front lines ;)) and unleash his full power with Sharpshooter after one of them Shoved a creature to the ground.

Agreed that Rogue's Expertise is great, but again, how would he hide? Unless the campaign settings make it so that there are many places to disappear from view (like open ruins) or party lands some spells to provide total cover (Sorcerer's Fog Cloud/Darkness), the best he can manage is to be hidden on first round. Then on his first attack, whether he misses or hit, his position will be revealed.
As for the other uses of Cunning Action, someone who shoots enemies from 600 feet away should rarely need them in the first place.

I love a 2-Rogue dip as any other, but OP does not seem keen in multiclassing more than 1 level (especially since he plays the UA version of Ranger which gives arguably better features on most levels). So for one level, Cleric synergizes much better imo for the reasons detailed above. :=)

Utility from the Ranger is definitely nice. And that's why the Ranger has cast Goodberry at the start of the day and handed one to each member of the party to use in case of emergency. S/He has literally created the capability for every PC to bring up a fellow PC should things go poorly.

Bless has a 30' cast range. Not just a 30' cast range, but you must be within 30' of the Ranger to even receive the buff. If the combat starts out with the Ranger being at an extreme distance, they're not going to be able to hit the party members with the Bless spell and keep that massive distance. Another thing, the Ranger cares about creating situations in which they can do more damage. Hunter's Mark is the primary concentration spell that s/he is going to maintain. Niche concentration spells for the Ranger will be Pass w/o Trace, Ensnaring Strike (which if the creature fails the Str save, is actually restrained, creating advantage for the Ranger), and Spike Growth. They already have great uses for their concentration, and it's useful for the party. If you have a Sharpshooting Ranger in your party, that guy/gal needs to be protected. They're going to be the one doing the most consistent damage in the safest way (barring niche situations).

An offensive focused Cleric is still absolutely fine concentrating on Bless. it will up their damage output with attack rolls and increase their save bonus by 1d4. They will also be able to actually target people that need the Bless spell (melee combat participants) as they're up in the melee with the other melee people.

Plus 2 AC is not worth giving up 10' of movement (down to 20' total for most races). You're going to get run down and be stuck in melee. You're also going to be having some problems if your DM is playing with encumbrance rules, as 8 Strength means you have a carry capacity of 120 lbs. Plate by itself weighs 65 pounds. Unless you completely strip yourself down of other equipment, it's going to be a bad play to even try and consider Plate armor. Another note, if the PC wants to avoid dealing with shots from enemies at long range, they should simply make their attack rolls, and drop prone at the end of their turn. At the start of their next turn, use half their movement to stand up, make a few more attack rolls at the enemy, and then drop prone again at the end of their turn. The enemy will have disadvantage on attack rolls against a prone target, which is way better then an additional 2 AC.

A Sharpshooter never wants to be in the front lines. They want to get the heck out of there and take their shots at a safe distance with little risk to self. This is why the Rogue dip is so appealing to Rangers. Having the ability to Disengage or Dash as a bonus action is incredibly useful in practically any combat situation. On top of those two amazing combat utility abilities, the Rogue dip also provides the ability to Hide as a bonus action. While this requires a bit more work to utilize, most smart Sharpshooters can figure out ways to make this work to their advantage. And let's just say they can't. Guess what, they're still going to be able to maintain a massive distance lead on anything that tries to chase them down with standard movement + Cunning Action Dash. Should anything ever actually catch up, they have Disengage.

The Cleric dip is nice in that it provides the Guidance Cantrip, Healing Word, and the domain specific bonus (which may or may not be helpful the OP's character). Oh, another note on Healing Word, the range is only 60'! This means that if you're at a pretty large range away from the party, you're not even going to be able to Healing Word them! Good thing you gave everyone a Goodberry should this situation arise so they can help out their downed buddy. Maxing out Dexterity, grabbing Crossbow Expert, and/or 1-3 Rogue levels will drastically improve the OP's Ranger's ability to do that which they do best.

[Desamir]

Re: Sharpshooter, you should be using it against nearly all enemies. With your stats, it's a damage per round increase against any target with AC 20 or less.

[Citan]

Bless has a 30' cast range. Not just a 30' cast range, but you must be within 30' of the Ranger to even receive the buff. If the combat starts out with the Ranger being at an extreme distance, they're not going to be able to hit the party members with the Bless spell and keep that massive distance. Another thing, the Ranger cares about creating situations in which they can do more damage. Hunter's Mark is the primary concentration spell that s/he is going to maintain.

First, this point: most fights, realistically, will start with the party being close one together. That's for the first argument.
Second argument about the distance, is moot for the same reason: party will move after receiving Bless, while Ranger will keep behind. Only condition for this to be generally true is to have Ranger get Initiative first.
Ranger UA gets advantage on initiative, OP has 18 DEX. Should be fine most of the time.
Third argument about the damage is, honestly, just a result of a total lack of reflexion. Adding +1d4 to hit on Barbarian, Rogue and OP is adding from 5% to 20% chance to hit on 2(3 if GWM/Frenzy/Dual-wield?) from Barbarian + 1(2 dual-wield?) from Rogue + 2(3 Horde Breaker?) from Ranger. So between 5 and 8 weapon attacks. Not including potential opportunity attacks. And without requiring a bonus action to change mark. This absolutely trumps an average +9 damage on the whole round, whatever way you look at this, except if the party is fighting very weak creatures (in which case whatever you want work anyways).



An offensive focused Cleric is still absolutely fine concentrating on Bless. it will up their damage output with attack rolls and increase their save bonus by 1d4. They will also be able to actually target people that need the Bless spell (melee combat participants) as they're up in the melee with the other melee people.

I'm sorry to be blunt but what you imply here is a bit annoying ^^. I NEVER SAID something along the lines of "Cleric should not be the one to cast Bless". Sure, it's fine if he casts it. But party is lvl 5. Cleric has Spirit Guardians: a spell that damages and slows enemies without affecting allies. What reason would he have to not use that one instead if he goes into melee with Barb and Rogue pal?
It means that at least for 2 encounters, you cannot count on Cleric for Bless. And probably the hard ones (otherwise why bother using your best resource in the first place).
Then comes the 2nd level slots: Cleric has 3 of them, which he will probably use on Spiritual Weapon or Blindness, unless he keeps one for Blessing the whole party.
Then finally the first spell slots: because he is in melee, he wants to keep Healing Words ready because he is the most suited for that usually. So he will reasonably keep at least 2 slots throughout the day just for this emergency. So then he can cast Bless, unless the situation commands for a Shield of Faith on one ally, or even a well-placed Command or Guiding Bolt. Or even casting Hold Person because he considers this will be more useful for a particular encounter than Bless.

Compared to OP's Ranger, which has few slots, and only meaningful use of concentration usually is... Hunter's Mark (confer above).
Please understand this: if OP had been a Monk, I would probably don't suggest Cleric dip, because 2 slots on a day is really not enough. But on a Ranger in general, and for this party in particular, it will be one much greater asset than Hunter's Mark.
And this absolutely not forbids OP to use Hunter's Mark for those situations where, as you say, he is too far away from others or from what they know the chance to hit will be generally fine.



Plus 2 AC is not worth giving up 10' of movement (down to 20' total for most races). You're going to get run down and be stuck in melee. You're also going to be having some problems if your DM is playing with encumbrance rules, as 8 Strength means you have a carry capacity of 120 lbs. Plate by itself weighs 65 pounds. Unless you completely strip yourself down of other equipment, it's going to be a bad play to even try and consider Plate armor. Another note, if the PC wants to avoid dealing with shots from enemies at long range, they should simply make their attack rolls, and drop prone at the end of their turn. At the start of their next turn, use half their movement to stand up, make a few more attack rolls at the enemy, and then drop prone again at the end of their turn. The enemy will have disadvantage on attack rolls against a prone target, which is way better then an additional 2 AC.

Good note here about encumberance. The rest, sure proning is a valid tactic but again, this is very cumbersome and not always a good one (let's remember that standing up takes half your speed, and if someone ambushes you on off-turn you will be sad).
Also, as a reminder, I never told that OP was supposed to wear heavy armor all the time FFS.
Just on very long range fights.



A Sharpshooter never wants to be in the front lines. They want to get the heck out of there and take their shots at a safe distance with little risk to self.

Tell that to all the people suggesting optimized Fighter/Ranger builds with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert. :smallbiggrin:



The Cleric dip is nice in that it provides the Guidance Cantrip, Healing Word, and the domain specific bonus (which may or may not be helpful the OP's character). Oh, another note on Healing Word, the range is only 60'! This means that if you're at a pretty large range away from the party, you're not even going to be able to Healing Word them! Good thing you gave everyone a Goodberry should this situation arise so they can help out their downed buddy. Maxing out Dexterity, grabbing Crossbow Expert, and/or 1-3 Rogue levels will drastically improve the OP's Ranger's ability to do that which they do best.
Goodberry? Meh... 1 action to regain 1 life point, "impressive". Unless you are pretty sure the pal you just put up won't ever sustain an attack until the end of the fight, this was a plain waste of spell and action.
As you said yourself, this is a small party. Cleric and Ranger can directly cast a spell. Others would fare better using a Healer's Kit (or making player quaff a potion if allowed by DM): at least it heals a decent amount.
Seriously, Goodberry is a waste of slot at that level in this use-case.
Its redeeming point is that you can just cast it if you have slots left before a long rest because, well, it's always a few HP more, but its main use will be to avoid any food problem now...
If these were Life Goodberries then it would become a decent strategy to blow many spell slots before the long rest. Still not enough to be really useful in an encounter, but at least you spare slots and hit die for out of combat healing. But normal Goodberries...

[joaber]

Goodberry? Meh... 1 action to regain 1 life point, "impressive". Unless you are pretty sure the pal you just put up won't ever sustain an attack until the end of the fight, this was a plain waste of spell and action.
As you said yourself, this is a small party. Cleric and Ranger can directly cast a spell. Others would fare better using a Healer's Kit (or making player quaff a potion if allowed by DM): at least it heals a decent amount.
Seriously, Goodberry is a waste of slot at that level in this use-case.
Its redeeming point is that you can just cast it if you have slots left before a long rest because, well, it's always a few HP more, but its main use will be to avoid any food problem now...
If these were Life Goodberries then it would become a decent strategy to blow many spell slots before the long rest. Still not enough to be really useful in an encounter, but at least you spare slots and hit die for out of combat healing. But normal Goodberries...

I completly disagree. Goodberry last for 24h, you can cast it with any spell slot left before long rest. So in the other day you get 10, 20, 50 HP total.
You don't need to find food with goodberry.
You can divide in the party, so if anyone go down, any other member can use his action to cure him.
In combat, low level cure work exactly to make an unconscious ally conscious. And when you reach like level 5, if he take another hit, he'll drop to 0 with 1hp or with 9, but unlike cure wounds, you can heal him again with the same spellslot, 10 times in fact. and yes, most of the time is just what you need, someone to take a hit for you, or that can heal you if you drop to 0.
Healing words is way better than cure wounds in combat, and better than goodberry (only in combat, but not always), since use bonus action instead of action.

[Biggstick]

First, this point: most fights, realistically, will start with the party being close one together. That's for the first argument.
Second argument about the distance, is moot for the same reason: party will move after receiving Bless, while Ranger will keep behind. Only condition for this to be generally true is to have Ranger get Initiative first.

Most of your fights start with the party close together? If you're getting surprised by the combat, then sure, definitely. Otherwise, every Sharpshooting player I've played with is usually already creating too much distance to be able to cast Bless on the party.


Third argument about the damage is, honestly, just a result of a total lack of reflexion. Adding +1d4 to hit on Barbarian, Rogue and OP is adding from 5% to 20% chance to hit on 2(3 if GWM/Frenzy/Dual-wield?) from Barbarian + 1(2 dual-wield?) from Rogue + 2(3 Horde Breaker?) from Ranger. So between 5 and 8 weapon attacks. Not including potential opportunity attacks. And without requiring a bonus action to change mark. This absolutely trumps an average +9 damage on the whole round, whatever way you look at this, except if the party is fighting very weak creatures (in which case whatever you want work anyways).

So Bless lasts for a minute. It takes an action to cast. The Barbarian (we'll say two attacks per turn), the Rogue (we'll say one attack per turn, as most are disengaging/dashing/hiding most of the time with Cunning Action rather then attacking in my experience), and the Ranger (we'll say 3 attacks a turn, even though I more often then not see Rangers take Colossus Slayer over Horde Breaker) get a combined total of 6 attacks a turn. In round one, the Ranger is casting Bless, so we'll count 9 total rounds of attacks from him, and then 10 rounds for the Rogue and Barbarian. Total number of attacks if the PC's are capable of attacking every turn = 57

This is a pretty decent number of attacks effected. At least, as long as the PC's aren't wasting any time within that one minute doing anything like positioning or something other then an attack roll. This also plays into the idea that you're actually spending the entire minute fighting, but let's just assume we are.

Hunter's Mark on the other hand, lasts an hour. It's a bonus action to cast. It only affects one target, so only helps us on targets we've put it on. With our example from above, we're assuming Horde Breaker but no Crossbow Expert. If the combat were to last a full minute, we'd be affecting 20 attacks if they hit. I know that's a big if, but here's another thing; Hunter's Mark lasts for an hour. That means if we run into another 1 to 3 combats during that hour (which is highly possible in most dungeons), you're going to get more mileage out of the spell. Let's say you run into 2 more combats in this supposed dungeon within the hour. Let's say these combats also last for another full minute (another 40 affected attacks) a piece. You're getting way more mileage out of this spell overall imo then that single casting of Bless.

The biggest question to the OP here is, are they going to be willing to sacrifice damage per turn for a 12.5% increased chance to hit for 1 minute (or less, depending on if they try and get this spell "pre-cast" before a combat starts, which would cut it's time up down considerably)?


I'm sorry to be blunt but what you imply here is a bit annoying ^^. I NEVER SAID something along the lines of "Cleric should not be the one to cast Bless". Sure, it's fine if he casts it. But party is lvl 5. Cleric has Spirit Guardians: a spell that damages and slows enemies without affecting allies. What reason would he have to not use that one instead if he goes into melee with Barb and Rogue pal?
It means that at least for 2 encounters, you cannot count on Cleric for Bless. And probably the hard ones (otherwise why bother using your best resource in the first place).
Then comes the 2nd level slots: Cleric has 3 of them, which he will probably use on Spiritual Weapon or Blindness, unless he keeps one for Blessing the whole party.
Then finally the first spell slots: because he is in melee, he wants to keep Healing Words ready because he is the most suited for that usually. So he will reasonably keep at least 2 slots throughout the day just for this emergency. So then he can cast Bless, unless the situation commands for a Shield of Faith on one ally, or even a well-placed Command or Guiding Bolt. Or even casting Hold Person because he considers this will be more useful for a particular encounter than Bless.

There are plenty of good ways for a DM to encourage the usage of third level spells that don't include Spirit Guardians. Dispel Magic, Mass Healing Word, up-cast Hold Person, up-cast Blindness/Deafness, etc. Those are offensive based spells (other then Mass Healing Word, but it's still a spell that even offensive focused Clerics are going to pick-up based purely on it's fantastic utility).

Here's another question. When do you think the Cleric is most likely to use either spell? There are many more situations where Bless is useful as compared to Spirit Guardians. Sometimes your combat is going to be pretty quick and only take 3-4 rounds and will be against a single opponent. Sometimes it will be longer and against multiple opponents. What I'm trying to get at here is, there are plenty more situations where Bless is going to be the useful spell to use as compared to Spirit Guardians. Trust me on this, as I'm playing a level 12 Life Cleric in a game that's been going on for a little over 2 years (pretty slow progression in the game as we only play a couple hours a week, with some weeks off) and a level 11 Nature Cleric in another (the Nature Cleric is offensively focused, as he's the first into combat and has tons of defensive capabilities on top of Warcaster/Resilient: Con.)


Compared to OP's Ranger, which has few slots, and only meaningful use of concentration usually is... Hunter's Mark (confer above).
Please understand this: if OP had been a Monk, I would probably don't suggest Cleric dip, because 2 slots on a day is really not enough. But on a Ranger in general, and for this party in particular, it will be one much greater asset than Hunter's Mark.
And this absolutely not forbids OP to use Hunter's Mark for those situations where, as you say, he is too far away from others or from what they know the chance to hit will be generally fine.

I mean, I listed three other great spells that a Ranger could be utilizing in Pass w/o Trace, Spike Growth, and Ensnaring Strike. Ensnaring Strike is great against anything with a low Strength score (read: casters), as this is going to mostly keep them in place and easy for the melee types to catch up with. Pass w/o Trace is plenty useful, and I don't really have to describe it myself as so many other people have done so in many threads. Spike Growth is a bit of a niche, as it's only useful against ground troops, but you can literally create terrain for your melee allies to use in funneling creatures in a direction or position you want them to go/be in.


Good note here about encumberance. The rest, sure proning is a valid tactic but again, this is very cumbersome and not always a good one (let's remember that standing up takes half your speed, and if someone ambushes you on off-turn you will be sad).
Also, as a reminder, I never told that OP was supposed to wear heavy armor all the time FFS.
Just on very long range fights.

I noted that standing up takes half your speed. Hey, if someone ambushes you, that's your fault for not seeing them imo. A Sharpshooter should be checking out the area they're in before dropping prone. Let's stay with this example though, of getting ambushed. A Ranger/Rogue would take the shot and get hit pretty hard. You know what they'd be able to do though since they're not wearing heavy armor? They'd be able to stand up, disengage, and create distance with a standard Dash action, putting them 45' away. The enemy ambusher would probably not be able to catch up with said Ranger/Rogue, and would have to resort to ranged attacks. After this 2nd round, the Ranger/Rogue could again create an even further distance by using Cunning Action Dash + regular movement.

You know what's cumbersome? A Ranger who's trying to engage in long range combat while wearing Heavy armor. That's pretty cumbersome.


Goodberry? Meh... 1 action to regain 1 life point, "impressive". Unless you are pretty sure the pal you just put up won't ever sustain an attack until the end of the fight, this was a plain waste of spell and action.
As you said yourself, this is a small party. Cleric and Ranger can directly cast a spell. Others would fare better using a Healer's Kit (or making player quaff a potion if allowed by DM): at least it heals a decent amount.
Seriously, Goodberry is a waste of slot at that level in this use-case.
Its redeeming point is that you can just cast it if you have slots left before a long rest because, well, it's always a few HP more, but its main use will be to avoid any food problem now...
If these were Life Goodberries then it would become a decent strategy to blow many spell slots before the long rest. Still not enough to be really useful in an encounter, but at least you spare slots and hit die for out of combat healing. But normal Goodberries...

If someone is down and making death saves, an action to regain 1 life point for an ally is pretty solid. Sure, you need to get close to them, but it allows for a class who might not have had a way to get another PC back into the action after dropping to 0 hp back into the combat.

A Healer's Kit doesn't bring anyone back to life, it merely stabilizes them. Yeah, a potion works as well, but those cost money. A Goodberry costs a single spell slot.

Yeah, solving the food problem is a nice thing. It's probably one of the best things about Goodberry. I'll agree on that.

Here's the thing with Goodberry though. Being able to bring an ally up to 1 hp is the same as bringing them up with 4 hp is the same as bringing them up with 12 hp (a maxed out level 1 Healing Word with 20 Wisdom and Life Cleric bonus). The difference is negligible in my experience, as a 1 hp Barbarian does the same amount of damage as a full hp Barbarian.

I love Cleric as a class. It brings great utility and it's almost never a bad multiclass. If the OP is looking to add a bit more spell casting utility that supports the party to his/her PC, then Cleric would be a good multiclass. If the OP is looking to bring a bit more combat utility and damage options to his PC, then Rogue would be a good multiclass. For what the OP has asked for though, I would say 1-3 levels of Rogue would give him/her what they're looking for.

[Citan]

A Healer's Kit doesn't bring anyone back to life, it merely stabilizes them. Yeah, a potion works as well, but those cost money. A Goodberry costs a single spell slot.

Yeah my bad, should have been more precise: was thinking about using it with Healer feat (to be honest, I rarely think about the kit if my character doesn't have the feat XD).



Here's the thing with Goodberry though. Being able to bring an ally up to 1 hp is the same as bringing them up with 4 hp is the same as bringing them up with 12 hp (a maxed out level 1 Healing Word with 20 Wisdom and Life Cleric bonus). The difference is negligible in my experience, as a 1 hp Barbarian does the same amount of damage as a full hp Barbarian.

Nop, it's not the same. See under.


I completly disagree. Goodberry last for 24h, you can cast it with any spell slot left before long rest. So in the other day you get 10, 20, 50 HP total.
You don't need to find food with goodberry.
You can divide in the party, so if anyone go down, any other member can use his action to cure him.
In combat, low level cure work exactly to make an unconscious ally conscious. And when you reach like level 5, if he take another hit, he'll drop to 0 with 1hp or with 9, but unlike cure wounds, you can heal him again with the same spellslot, 10 times in fact. and yes, most of the time is just what you need, someone to take a hit for you, or that can heal you if you drop to 0.
Healing words is way better than cure wounds in combat, and better than goodberry (only in combat, but not always), since use bonus action instead of action.
You didn't get my point it seems. :)
I did say that Goodberry was nice for providing for food.
In fight though?
If you heal someone and he drops again next turn, and again next turn, unless that person had a much better chance to contribute for the fight on that round than you OR it was on the verge of dying, you just lost both turns.
Meaning that the best chance for your choice to be relevant is to heal someone down because 1) his turn will come before any enemy can threaten him in any way 2) he has a better chance than you to at least kill one enemy, or (for a spellcaster) has a spell that can change the tide.
Otherwise, plain loss.

At least a spellcaster can upcast a Cure Wounds if he doesn't have Healing Words so that your ally has a decent chance of surviving one more round.

And you have a familiar for whatever reasons, you can also cast Cure Wounds from a distance.

Otherwise, having Healer feat with Healer's Kit will be far better.
Or administering a potion will be the same action economy cost and give a bit more (contrarily to some other people, I do find that potions are very costly for new adventurers, but by level 5 you should begin having decent to good amounts of gold so you can always each carry half a dozen easy).

Is 1 HP and 12 HP the same? At level 5, on most classes probably. On a Barbarian that can rage, on a Cleric that can then cast Spirit Guardians or self-Healing Words while casting a cantrip (or worse case casting Sanctuary on self), on a Rogue that can Uncanny Dodge, on a Fighter that can use Healing Wind (provided he didn't use it once obviously) NO.
1 HP make all their defensive abilities irrelevant.
12 HP means they have a chance to still survive one hit (either because they reduce the damage one way or another, or because they self-healed as a bonus action to reach an amount of HP that ensure their survived the full brunt of the hit).
(For current level dimension at least. Past lvl 8, won't change anything indeed, unless you healed for 20+ HP at least).

[joaber]

You didn't get my point it seems. :)
I did say that Goodberry was nice for providing for food.
In fight though?
If you heal someone and he drops again next turn, and again next turn, unless that person had a much better chance to contribute for the fight on that round than you OR it was on the verge of dying, you just lost both turns.
Meaning that the best chance for your choice to be relevant is to heal someone down because 1) his turn will come before any enemy can threaten him in any way 2) he has a better chance than you to at least kill one enemy, or (for a spellcaster) has a spell that can change the tide.
Otherwise, plain loss.

At least a spellcaster can upcast a Cure Wounds if he doesn't have Healing Words so that your ally has a decent chance of surviving one more round.

And you have a familiar for whatever reasons, you can also cast Cure Wounds from a distance.

Otherwise, having Healer feat with Healer's Kit will be far better.
Or administering a potion will be the same action economy cost and give a bit more (contrarily to some other people, I do find that potions are very costly for new adventurers, but by level 5 you should begin having decent to good amounts of gold so you can always each carry half a dozen easy).

Is 1 HP and 12 HP the same? At level 5, on most classes probably. On a Barbarian that can rage, on a Cleric that can then cast Spirit Guardians or self-Healing Words while casting a cantrip (or worse case casting Sanctuary on self), on a Rogue that can Uncanny Dodge, on a Fighter that can use Healing Wind (provided he didn't use it once obviously) NO.
1 HP make all their defensive abilities irrelevant.
12 HP means they have a chance to still survive one hit (either because they reduce the damage one way or another, or because they self-healed as a bonus action to reach an amount of HP that ensure their survived the full brunt of the hit).
(For current level dimension at least. Past lvl 8, won't change anything indeed, unless you healed for 20+ HP at least).

Good you mention familiar, this could delivery a Goodberry.
average heal of cure wouds at level 5 is 8,5 HP, only life cleric can get avg of 11,5HP, but life cleric get 4HP from one goodberry, but multiclass as cleric don't add much for OP, and in that case, he could grab healing words instead of cure wouds.
barbarian rage need bonus action and cleric need action (or bonus action), at that point, 1HP and 8,5HP are the same, because if they get a hit before, they will be knocked again, and after, they can survive.
You can ready an action to delivery just before of your partner turn, them he can wake up and act.
If you don't heal him, someone need to take the next attack instead, or maybe enemy will kill the unconscious ally. 1HP reset the cicle. While another member can kill that enemy.
goodberry can cost 0 spell slots, since you can cast it before sleep
can return 10 allies from unconsciousness. Or maybe more if you got more spellslots lefting from yesterday.
Even the barbarian can heal you with goodberry.
there is the food part too.
Healer feat cost a feat.
Healer kit don't bring your ally from unconscious, this is a real action lost. Your ally action worth as yours, so you don't lose an action with goodberry.
At least in my table you don't get potions easily and aren't free. And in that case, this would be one more reason to grab goodberry instead of cure wouds (or none of them), since a potion do the same as cure wouds, goodberry provide food.

You probably will not change your mind, but at least in all tables I played/DMed, can't see no reason how cure wounds is superior to goodberry in 99% or circumstances.