Build Help

[Nox0688]

Hey all! I was wondering if anyone could take a look at this build and maybe give a little bit of help!


Starting Level 5
All books availible.
10,000g starting.



I want to make a Ninja Spy that uses a kusarigama (from the DMG) as their primary weapon. Stay with me! I know its most likely a horrible idea just from what I have so far, but I'm trying to salvage what is most likely a bad mechanical idea to fit what the flavor I want to achieve, so I'm not going for an all out min-max, just make it "less bad" or actually somewhat viable.

The DM will work with me on allowing a ninja dispite there not being any in the current area, but if I don't start with a level of the class...most likely I will not be able to in the future, because: Finding an ninja? not easy. Finding a spy? not easy. Finding one that is willing to teach me? ....

So, goal is to get all the pre-reqs for Ninja Spy PrC @ lvl 4, so it can be taken level 5.

Skills: Bluff 10 ranks , Disguise 7 ranks , Hide 7 ranks , Tumble 7 ranks
Feats: Dodge
Special: Evasion class ability

Okay, everything EXCEPT that 10 ranks of bluff can be done easily. I need to cheese in 3 more ranks to get my PrC @ lvl 5...
Race: Changeling: Get 2 free ranks of bluff.
Trait: Dishonest: squeeze in that last rank.

Done here. DM approved that would satisfy the pre-reqs, yay!

So the build I'm looking at right now is.

Rogue - Changeling Rogue substitution Level.
Scout: Get back my trap finding. Skirmish
Rogue
Rogue - Changeling Rogue Substitution Level.
Ninja Spy: Exotic Weapon: kusarigama



Feats
Dodge - I have to for PrC
Craven - If I'm reading the kusarigama weapon description correctly, it has build in weapon finesse, so i hold off on that feat.

Skill points spread to meet PrC pre-reqs, and filled in as desired.

Would this work? Any ideas to make it work better?

[Tiri]

Okay, everything EXCEPT that 10 ranks of bluff can be done easily. I need to cheese in 3 more ranks to get my PrC @ lvl 5...
Race: Changeling: Get 2 free ranks of bluff.
Trait: Dishonest: squeeze in that last rank.

Bonuses like the ones Changeling and Dishonest give you are bonuses, not ranks. They don't count as ranks for the purposes of anything, prerequisites included.

It's not really a problem since your DM seems to be okay with it anyway, but you appear to have an imperfect understanding of the rules, which should be corrected.

[flappeercraft]

Hey all! I was wondering if anyone could take a look at this build and maybe give a little bit of help!


Starting Level 5
All books availible.
10,000g starting.



I want to make a Ninja Spy that uses a kusarigama (from the DMG) as their primary weapon. Stay with me! I know its most likely a horrible idea just from what I have so far, but I'm trying to salvage what is most likely a bad mechanical idea to fit what the flavor I want to achieve, so I'm not going for an all out min-max, just make it "less bad" or actually somewhat viable.

The DM will work with me on allowing a ninja dispite there not being any in the current area, but if I don't start with a level of the class...most likely I will not be able to in the future, because: Finding an ninja? not easy. Finding a spy? not easy. Finding one that is willing to teach me? ....

So, goal is to get all the pre-reqs for Ninja Spy PrC @ lvl 4, so it can be taken level 5.

Skills: Bluff 10 ranks , Disguise 7 ranks , Hide 7 ranks , Tumble 7 ranks
Feats: Dodge
Special: Evasion class ability

Okay, everything EXCEPT that 10 ranks of bluff can be done easily. I need to cheese in 3 more ranks to get my PrC @ lvl 5...
Race: Changeling: Get 2 free ranks of bluff.
Trait: Dishonest: squeeze in that last rank.

Done here. DM approved that would satisfy the pre-reqs, yay!

So the build I'm looking at right now is.

Rogue - Changeling Rogue substitution Level.
Scout: Get back my trap finding. Skirmish
Rogue
Rogue - Changeling Rogue Substitution Level.
Ninja Spy: Exotic Weapon: kusarigama



Feats
Dodge - I have to for PrC
Craven - If I'm reading the kusarigama weapon description correctly, it has build in weapon finesse, so i hold off on that feat.

Skill points spread to meet PrC pre-reqs, and filled in as desired.

Would this work? Any ideas to make it work better?

You don't have 10 ranks on bluff. You can only have a maximum of 8 since you're level 5. The maximum level of ranks is 3+level if its a class skill. Also, Changeling and the Dishonest trait don't give you ranks, they give you bonuses which are different, these don't allow you to qualify for PrC's early although depending on your DM's reading of Bloodlines (Variant rule from Unearthed Arcana) you could get those ranks.

[Nox0688]

You don't have 10 ranks on bluff. You can only have a maximum of 8 since you're level 5. The maximum level of ranks is 3+level if its a class skill. Also, Changeling and the Dishonest trait don't give you ranks, they give you bonuses which are different, these don't allow you to qualify for PrC's early although depending on your DM's reading of Bloodlines (Variant rule from Unearthed Arcana) you could get those ranks.

I'll look into that and present it to my DM

If thats not the case, I could just build them as ninja try to get the PrC later.


Rogue - Changeling Rogue Substitution Level
Rogue
Rogue - Changeling Rogue Substitution Level
Rogue
Rogue

Rogue
Rogue
Ninja Spy



If I want to stick with a kusarigama as my weapon from the start, I'd need the exotic weapon feat, not sure if i'm reading its description correctly from the DMG, but it sounds like it has build it weapon finesse, so I would't need that right away? and without rushing for ninja spy I don't need to get dodge. So I could have my feats be: Exotic weapon prof. [kusarigama], and craven?


Shadow Dancer seems appealing too, but I would stop gaining ranks in SA
Assassin looks like a good alternative too, and I would still gain SA
Ninja stuff would just come from flavor

[Nox0688]

So if we start completely from scratch, I want to make a ninja themed character, changeling that uses a kusarigama. Rogue seems the natural choice and make them an SA based attacker.

kusarigama has its draw backs, but if I want to take full advantage of it, i could move towards improved trip/disarm, but they both require some kinda lame intro feats.

Changeling has some cool things I can take advantage of, such as the rogue substitution levels, Racial Emulation to name a couple.

PrC classes to work towards

Warshaper:: Maybe a two level dip here to get crit immune, natural weapons, and Str and Con
Ninja Spy:: Some cool features, slower SA bonuses
Assassin:: Same SA rate as rogue, spells, and death attack
Shadowdancer:: Really become one with darkness, hide in plain sight right off bat, no more SA though...


Feats I'm looking towards

Exotic weapon [kusarigama] if i do not get it from a class feature
Craven :: Standard for anyone going after SA
Racial Emulaton :: Get more out of my race
Improved Trip/Disarm :: Crappy pre-reqs to meet, but would make using a kusarigama worth it perhaps?

[thoroughlyS]

When building characters, I always find it helpful to answer a few baseline questions:

What are three things you want your character to be able to do?
What is one thing your character wants to accomplish in-universe?

After figuring those things out, I also tend to list any minor goals that I would like to include.

So far it seems like your three main goals are to be a changeling, a "ninja", and wield a Kusarigama. What do you want to get by being a Changeling? What do you want to get by being a "ninja"? Why wield a Kusarigama? Note: The Kusarigama (DMG p.144) does NOT automatically allow you to use dexterity for attack rolls, it just qualifies for Weapon Finesse like a Spiked Chain does. It is basically a light Spiked Chain.

[Nox0688]

When building characters, I always find it helpful to answer a few baseline questions:

What are three things you want your character to be able to do?
What is one thing your character wants to accomplish in-universe?

After figuring those things out, I also tend to list any minor goals that I would like to include.

So far it seems like your three main goals are to be a changeling, a "ninja", and wield a Kusarigama. What do you want to get by being a Changeling? What do you want to get by being a "ninja"? Why wield a Kusarigama? Note: The Kusarigama (DMG p.144) does NOT automatically allow you to use dexterity for attack rolls, it just qualifies for Weapon Finesse like a Spiked Chain does. It is basically a light Spiked Chain.

All three choices are "flavor" choices that I want to work into being something viable

Changeling, with its shapeshift ability does come in useful early levels, but many classes can emulate its effect, its dex and cha bonuses do however come in useful for many rogue functions, as well as allowing access to the changeling rogue alternate class features. There are several changeling only feats that could potentially come in useful as well, but many of them are out-shadowed by your staple rogue build feats. It does allow early entry into the warshaper PrC, as early as lvl 5 for a rogue, but its really debatable it its worth taking or not, it does have many cool features that are unique to the PrC, but at the loss of rogue, or other PrC features, skills and such.

Ninja, because Ninja? I orinally was wanting to go for the Ninja Spy PrC, but I could just as well go for other classes, and build them up as Ninja flavour wise. Going for the fantasy cinima ninja style of deceptive, sneaky, get in, do job, get out. The Ninja Spy PrC had few real cool things that I view as classical cinima ninja, such as running on water, but I could just as easily grab a ring that does that for 10k g, and put levels elsewhere.

Kusarigama has always been my favorite weapon for ninjas, I get that it isn't the "best" weapon choice, but it does have some cool features, such as reach, and bonuses to trip and disarm. Would love for this to by my signature weapon, but no ninja limits themself to only one fighting style. I'd still like to find ways to use it effectively, and to take advantage of what it can do.

So I see the pros & cons of each of my 3 choices, and how each of them may not be the "best" or could be substituted out for something more effective. I'm not trying to min-max out the most powerful build ever, but take my concept and make it relevant, and not just get carried by the party.

Once I get my 3 main "hooks" for my character established, I'd recon i'd spread my skill point allotment out that I have remaining to your basic skill-monkey functions, that still fit my "theme".

Skills I (hope)/want to get capped, or have high ranks in.

Hide
Disguise
Bluff
Gather Information
Listen
Search
Spot



Remaining/Few points to spare into

Balance
Tumble
Jump
Move silently



I love the "feel" of shadow dancer, but it seems like it could be a real inferior PrC compaired to others, but the flavor of becoming one with shadows and all that stuff, is spot on to what I would like to accomplish.

Assassin is pretty nice too, and it seems like the most viable PrC, with all kinds of nifty tricks and such.

Edit::

A two level dip into Warshaper could also be great for survival, and later pick up two more levels for the fast healing. This would fully take advantage of my race choice; Thing here is it is a huge setback to my offensive capabilities.

[Dagroth]

This looks like a job for Swordsage!

If you like Ninja Spy & Shadow Dancer, you'll love Swordsage!

Beware of taking a Base Class to recover your Trapfinding if you do take the Changeling Rogue Substitution Level. You don't want to run afoul of multiclassing penalties if you do take levels of Swordsage (which you should!)

Hoardstealer (Draconomicon, Page 130). You need a bunch of Rogue skills at 4 & 8 ranks, so you can get in at level 6. It gives you Darkvision 30ft & Trapfinding.

Nightsong Infiltrator (Complete Adventurer, Page 62. Needs Alertness, Evasion & Climb 10 ranks, so you can get in at level 8. Gives Trapfinding. Not as good as Hoardstealer, IMHO.

The Minor Lore ability from 3rd Level Rogue Substitution is useful... if you get Knowledge Devotion. Otherwise, you're only taking the Substitution level for the +2 skill points.

Able Learner is a valuable feat for Changelings... not having to spend double on cross-class skills is very useful. Especially if you're planning on getting Knowledge Devotion.

[thoroughlyS]

After doing some research and tooling with some concepts, I have some recommendations for your build.

Classes
One fun way to get a "ninja" is to make a Monk with Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona p.119). Tashalatora basically allows a psionic class to progress your unarmed damage, flurry of blows, and AC bonus. Taking this with the Psychic Rogue (Mind's Eye Web Article) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) basically makes you a rogue with Flurry of Blows and psychic powers. The two big trade offs are delayed Sneak Attack and less skill points. It is worth mentioning that Psychic Rogue is generally considered to be a step up from the Rogue.

LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
Flurry of Blows
Unarmed Damage
AC Bonus
PP/Day
Powers Known
Max Power Level
Psychic Rogue 1+0+0+2+0Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
—
—
—
0*
1
1st
Monk 1+0+2+4+2Bonus Fighter Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike
-2/-2
1d6
+0
0*
1
1st
Monk 2+1+3+5+3Bonus Fighter Feat, Invisible Fist
-1/-1
1d6
+0
0*
1
1st
Psychic Rogue 2+2+4+4+4Evasion
+0/+0
1d6
+0
1
2
1st
Psychic Rogue 3+3+4+4+4-
+1/+1
1d6
+0
2
3
1st

At first level, you take Psychic Rogue, which gives you a nice stack of skill points to spend, as well as Sneak Attack. Ask your DM if you can apply the benefits of Changeling Rogue to Psychic Rogue, which will give you 8 more skill points and replace trapfinding.
At second level, you take Martial Monk (Dragon 310 p.45) which let's you choose Fighter Bonus Feats as Monk Bonus Feats for the price of 1 skill point per level. There is some debate as to whether you must meet the prerequisites of the bonus feats or not, so ask your DM (the feats I suggest will have easy prerequisites anyway).
At third, you trade the Monk's Evasion (which doesn't stack with the Rogue's) for Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil p.21) which let's you go invisible every 4 rounds. The wording of the ability doesn't mention the spell, so you may be able to attack and retain this benefit (ask your DM).
Fourth and fifth levels are just standard levels in Psychic Rogue (but still ask your DM about them anyway).

Feats
This build is really feat starved, even with the bonus ones.
LevelFeatBonus Feat
1stMonastic Training—
2nd—Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Unarmed Strike
3rdWeapon FinesseImproved Trip
If flaws are allowed, take Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor p.28)/Kung Fu Genius (Dragon Compendium p.101) to reduce MAD, and Two Weapon Fighting to bump up your damage. At 6th level, take Tashalatora. This is when everything comes together.

Note: Ask your DM if Carmendine Monk can qualify as Monastic Training for the purposes of taking Tashalatora. This is strictly against the rules, but Monastic Training is a big feat tax that you'll never get the benefit of. If they agree, take Tashalatora at 3rd.

[Nox0688]

Thanks for the suggestion Jsketchy! I'm not familiar with the Physic Rogue class, so i am reading over the class features i full to try to fully understand it before presenting it to the DM.

But I am really liking what you have put together! looks like a very fun build to play!


edit::
What about instead of the Exotic weapon feat I take Two weapon fighting, and use a Kama which Monk gives a proficiency in? Kama can also benefit from from improved trip, has a nice ninja flavour to it, and I can grab my exotic weapon feat on one of my next level ups?i


How would you recommend continuing the build? More levels in physic rogue seems to be the obvious choice, two level dip to fighter would give more bonus feats since you mentioned how feat starved I would be, and you mentioned how feat starved I would be.

[thoroughlyS]

What about instead of the Exotic weapon feat I take Two weapon fighting, and use a Kama which Monk gives a proficiency in? Kama can also benefit from from improved trip, has a nice ninja flavour to it, and I can grab my exotic weapon feat on one of my next level ups?
Are you allowed to use Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (Unearthed Arcana p.91)? Because that would really help you.

If you can deal with using Kama for a little while, that would allow you to take Tashalatora more quickly, which should be top priority. Using a Kama with no flaws would look more like this:
LevelFeatBonus Feat
1stMonastic Training—
2nd—Weapon Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike
3rdTashalatoraImproved Trip
Which would allow you to take EWP next level.

How would you recommend continuing the build? More levels in physic rogue seems to be the obvious choice, two level dip to fighter would give more bonus feats since you mentioned how feat starved I would be, and you mentioned how feat starved I would be.
After taking Tashalatora, none of your other Monk abilities really matter any more, so there's no need to take any more of those. This Psychic Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234327-3-5-Thinking-on-your-Feet-The-Psychic-Rogue-Handbook) has some recommendations for prestige classes. Specifically, Shadowmind (Complete Adventurer p.74) and Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel p.67) look workable. Without thinking too much (as I currently have a headache), Martial Monk 2/Psychic Rogue 14/Shadowmind 3/Uncanny Trickster 3 seems like a good progression. Note: If your DM uses multiclassing xp penalties, see if you can switch your favored class from Rogue to Psychic Rogue.

[Nox0688]

Really loving this build, you're a genius! My DM does Allow flaws, trying to decide which two flaws that wouldn't hurt me to badly. Guessing the feats to take with flaws would be Kung-Fu Master, and Able Learner?

Never played a Psyonic character before, so i got a lot of reading to do become familiar with the terms and mechanics, but well worth it.

Next Feat I'm thinking two weapon flighting for my Kama, actually thinking stick with that kama rather eventually getting the kasurigami, that Tashalatora feat scales up flurry of blows REAL nicely for this build.

followed by Craven, Since str is pretty damn low since its a dump stat in this build this would make up for it.

[Dagroth]

Really loving this build, you're a genius! My DM does Allow flaws, trying to decide which two flaws that wouldn't hurt me to badly. Guessing the feats to take with flaws would be Kung-Fu Master, and Able Learner?

Never played a Psyonic character before, so i got a lot of reading to do become familiar with the terms and mechanics, but well worth it.

Next Feat I'm thinking two weapon flighting for my Kama, actually thinking stick with that kama rather eventually getting the kasurigami, that Tashalatora feat scales up flurry of blows REAL nicely for this build.

followed by Craven, Since str is pretty damn low since its a dump stat in this build this would make up for it.

Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) is slightly better than Kung Fu Genius since it also sets the DC for your Monk Abilities to key off Int (including Stunning Fist).

Able Learner is very useful.

If you can get your GM to allow Psychic Rogue as your Favored Class, pick up 2 levels of Unarmored Swordsage at 5 & 6 This will get you +Wis to AC (in addition to your Int-to-AC from Carmendine Monk) and by RAW progresses your Unarmed Strike damage. Your first level will have an Initiator Level of 3, which means you'll have access to 2nd level maneuvers, including Shadow Jaunt. If you can put off the 2nd level of Swordsage (which is where your +Wis-to-AC comes in) until 8th level, it will get you access to 3rd level maneuvers including the Assassin's Stance (for +2d6 Sneak Attack).

[thoroughlyS]

Note: I just realized I never mentioned this in the thread! Changelings (Races of Eberron p.41) do NOT get racial ability score modifiers in 3.5. The +2 DEX + 2 CHA is from 4E.


Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) is slightly better than Kung Fu Genius since it also sets the DC for your Monk Abilities to key off Int (including Stunning Fist).
Actually, both Carmendine Monk and Kung Fu Genius do that. Carmendine Monk is slightly better because you can virtually boost your monk level by 2 for damage, AC, or speed (and you can change which one each day). The trade-off is that you have to have belonged to a specific monastic order, the Zealots of the Written Word (Champions of Valor).However, this is entirely a fluff requirement, as they have no listed requirement for membership, you don't even have to be a monk.

Able Learner is very useful.
That's true but most of the ninja-y skills are already on your skill list. I'd pick up Two-Weapon Fighting first, to add a third attack to your routine (as I mentioned above).

If you can get your GM to allow Psychic Rogue as your Favored Class, pick up 2 levels of Unarmored Swordsage at 5 & 6 This will get you +Wis to AC (in addition to your Int-to-AC from Carmendine Monk) and by RAW progresses your Unarmed Strike damage. Your first level will have an Initiator Level of 3, which means you'll have access to 2nd level maneuvers, including Shadow Jaunt. If you can put off the 2nd level of Swordsage (which is where your +Wis-to-AC comes in) until 8th level, it will get you access to 3rd level maneuvers including the Assassin's Stance (for +2d6 Sneak Attack).
I actually recommend against dipping any more levels, because the Psychic Rogue does NOT get very many Power Points. If you really want to pick up some "ninja-y" maneuvers, this is definitely worthwhile advice, as there are some fun ones out there.