Paladin sorcerer going Hexblade warlock, worth it?

[Isidoro]

Hi all!
I'd love to ask your opinion on a build I'm struggling on.
I need to create a Tank with high end utility for my party. The best thing I could come up with was a Paladin 6 and Sorcerer 3, but then The Hexblade was introduced in our gaming ruleset and now a new opportunity arises.

TL;DR: Paladin 6 going Hexblade warlock 2 sorcerer 1 instead of Sorcerer 3 is worth the fuss?


The situation as today:
DM homerules:
- when you get an ASI, you get ALSO the feat (yes it's insane, i know, but we play in low magic so he's compensating)
- Multiclassing paladin with 13 STR or DEX
- Point buy with 29 points instead of 27 but you still can't go over 15
- 3 uncommon and 1 rare magic items
- Polearm Mastery nerfed (no d4 attack with 1 handed quarterstaffs)
- you can alter *certain* magic items (e.g. Flame Tongue maul)

Party composition:
Wild sorcerer 9 half elf
rogue 1 illusionist 8 gnome
silly ranger with bow 9 wood elf
life cleric 9 human
Paladin Tank (me)

My original build:

Tabaxi + Resilient (DEX) - Paladin 6 Sorcerer 3
STR 8 DEX 15+2+1+2 CON 8(+11) INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 15+1
AC 20 HP: [10+5d10]+[3d6+3]+4*9 = AVG 87
4 1st level slots, 3 2nd level slots, 3 3rd level slots. These latter slots are used for upcasting smites and lower level spells, converted into spell points to boost Metamagic (i.e. 15 sp are 6 1st level and 1 2nd level slots)

Amulet of Health - to reach 19 CON and spend the rest of the pool points in more useful stuff (i.e. wis 14 instead of 8)
Sentinel shield - to have advantage on initiative and perception. Not *the* most significant shield but I feel it is more interesting than going plain +1 shield especially because I plan to stealth and ambush together with the ranger and the rogue)
Sunblade - Originally I was going for a +2 rapier but this longsword has the finesse propriety and other goodies, so why not? (Not *the* stealthiest weapon, I know :v) I used a Rapier Flame Tongue for a while and the output is outstanding...when the attacks connect, though.
Robe of useful Items - this beats the bag of holding just because if you roll nicely, you could end up with more money than it costed, which means you could go to a store and buy *other* magic items if the DM forgets where the money comes from :v
on a "non-cheesy" related note, all the useful gear weights nothing, which is sweet for a STR 8 character.

PROs
Single target damage + aura of protection + ranged damage + Aoe damage + nova damage + extreme avoidance (up to 25/27 AC)
20 Dex @4th level

CONs
aura of protection pulling "only" +3 to all STs (+4 @10th level, +5 @14th level),
only +7 to spell attack which means average performances on to hit spells and low DC for aoe spells

Conclusions:
so, I feel this being a bit too selfish, thus missing the point of being a "high end" utility build. It is not *completely* selfish, just a wee too much, I'm afraid, but the quantity of spell slots (thus of smites and shield spells) is astonishingly high... I'm quite sure I could blast my way through a boss fight effortlessly, which is nice for a blaster...not so great for a tank...or am I mistaken?


With Hexblade Warlock levels
Half-Wood Elf (35ft speed) + actor (crappy feat but the only one with +cha and other quite situational stuff that is still better than resilient, since all 3 classes have charisma ST prof natively) - Paladin 6 Warlock 2 Sorcerer 1
STR 8 DEX 15+1 CON 8(+11) INT 10 WIS 15+1 CHA 15+2+1+2
AC 18 HP: [10+5d10]+[2d8]+[1d6+1]+4*9 = AVG 87
4 1st level slots, 3 2nd level slots, 2 1st level Pact slots

As per former build, Amulet of Health is core. Since the AC is really low, I *could* go for AC 18 and stick with Sentinel and Robe of useful items, but I'm afraid I'd have to go with a +1 Shield and a Cloak of Protection to top up my AC off instead. I'm sad to let Sentinel go (and perhaps sadder about the Robe too) but I'm afraid ac 18 for a 9th level tank is not adequate at all. I could take into consideration going for Defender Fighting Style too and forgo 2 extra damage per round (which is not that big of a deal with a Flame Tongue in the mix though). The Fiendish Vigor Eldritch Invocation should mitigate a bit this whole low AC issue out, but I'm also concerned that the out of combat healing will increase significantly nevertheless.

You take some, you give some, I guess.

Why hexblade warlock?
1) SAD damage output (charisma) on both melee (with Flame Tongue) and ranged attacks (Eldritch Blasts with Agonizing Blasts)
2) Eldritch Blasts 2 beams + cha which become 3 beams @ lvl 11 for a total of 3 x 1d10+5 (avg dmg 3 x 10.5 = 31.5 DPR)
3) Hex (Vengeance's Hunter's Mark works with weapons not with cantrips)
4) Warlock's spells (not the best bunch since Hexblade patron, but Armor of Agathys is not that ugly)


Final Considerations

with 6+3, ASI and extra feat are next door, I have a crapload of spell slots to burn through with Smites and Shields and I'm in Prime [damage] from level 4th. It is a strong build (if not one of the strongest overall, I guess) and I'd have Charisma on spell damage from level 12th (but only on fire damage) which might call for Elemental Adept @level 10th (or 14th)

with 6+2+1, I'll quite possibly miss the whopping 15 sorcery points gained by converting those 3 3rd level slots I'd have with sorc 3, but I'm in Prime on both offensive and defensive by level 7th, which is awesome. The lack of proper AC might be offset by replacing those two utility magic items with Cloak and +1 shield, which is not the end of the world but then again... being SAD is Stakesauce (qft)

I could eventually think about leaving sorcerer out of the equation at all, but it would mean one or more of these situation to happen:
1) I'd have to cast Magic Armor once or twice per day, which is sad (not the funky kind of SAD), AC 16
2) I'd have to get the Eldritch Invocation to get Magic Armor for free, which means no more Fiendish Vigor up til level 11th, AC 16
3) I'd have to don armor, preferably a Breastplate because it weights 20lbs and has no disadvantage on stealth, AC 16
4) I'd have to reserve the 10th level ASI for Medium Armor Mastery, take a half plate and reach AC 17
5) Dip barbarian or monk. Barbarian might be fun but MAD. Monk while not as MAD as barbarian (due the high wisdom) can't put wisdom to AC while using shields, which sucks... but hey you'd get martial arts :v - Subpar

Feel free to provide your opinion because I'm quite sure I'm overthinking this whole through and need a fresh view on things to put them in a better perspective! :)

Thanks all :D

[Submortimer]

It's a weird build for sure. Major question, before I offer advice: why are you building dex instead of strength?

[Isidoro]

It's a weird build for sure. Major question, before I offer advice: why are you building dex instead of strength?

because STR is not that impactful as stat. STR is really mandatory just for the two handers (and polearms) which can't be used with DEX at all, also GWM requires weapons to have the heavy propriety, etc. What STR provides offensively is counter-balanced with the lack of any other meaningful utility:
STR ST are there to make you resist forced movement, something that you really don't mind failing unless your DM plays with obstacles, covers and hazardous environments, which mine doesn't use much.
STR compounds in carrying weight, which is only meaningful if you need to keep track of encumber-related issues (and nothing that can't be offset by boots of striding or a horse)
STR is needed for active athletic skill checks (e.g grapples, shoves) which is something you can plan to use or not, but they are really situational: in my case, for instance, shoving makes no sense because i'm the only melee (well the cleric is too but he's not that a heavy hitter) and the rest would take disadvantage from my shoves. Pushing won't make any sense too since I'm meant to whack them senseless rather than avoid confrontation :v

We use point buy, so since we can boost to 15 3 stats, there is little room for DEX if I plan on using STR, which usually stays at 8 and gets cloaked by Heavy armor, Aura of Protection and Luckstone (that +1 stat checks tops up the -1 initiative).

On the other hand, if you put 15 points in DEX, you gain:
Dex ST mileage
Initiative mileage
Skills (most importantly stealth and acrobatics)
Armor Class (with the proper combination, you can reach 18 AC on par with plate, with no concerns fro encumbrance )
Ranged efficiency that doesn't decay after 30ft.


I've played several characters in my 5E career but never gave a real shot to DEX based PCs, tanks especially. Now it's a good time for some tryouts ^^

[Submortimer]

Hmm...okay.

Other questions:

- Do you get an ASI if you get a feat regardless, by which I mean does a Variant human get a bonus ASI at level 1?

- Are you starting at level 9?

[Isidoro]

Hmm...okay.

Other questions:

- Do you get an ASI if you get a feat regardless, by which I mean does a Variant human get a bonus ASI at level 1?

- Are you starting at level 9?

Variant human gets an extra feat, not an extra ASI. I'd wish so, but then what would be the point of playing any other race what so ever? xD
Right now, Human variant is King of the hill for min maxing purposes. I myself would go there if there wasn't the opportunity to Prime a main stat @ level 4th... "+2 on a stat" races are useful in this very situation because I can get both ASI and feat (which translates to +3 to a stat, provided the right feat), otherwise I'd seldom consider any other race a better fit than a human variant. I can go deep in detail of why, but this is not the right place to break down races :D

Yes, this character will replace my actual one, as soon as we reach level 9 (we play with milestone leveling, which means the level up happens after the conclusion of a quest and its due downtime in city)

Variant Human won't be able to reach 20 in any stats prior to second ASI, which means level 10 at best. Paladin 6 is mandatory because of that sweet aura and going for paladin 8 is viable but bumps the whole progression down the line, which is something I'd like to avoid: we have no limitations on how often we can replace PCs and I'm using this freedom to playtest UA material and optimized builds, which means that i'm more concerned on how to push a level 9th PC to the edge "now" rather than how well it will perform at next level (which will happen in 3 to 5 months at least, given how slowly we progress through these levels).

My only concern at this very moment is: prior to hexblade warlock, I was quite confident that Sorc 3 would have been the best route to achieve best overall output performance, because it smoothed off paladin's usual flaws while providing a bonanza of spell slots to do whatever I pleased.
Now, with Hexblade added in the mix:
1 level dip to achieve SADness in charisma. I could have a character with the best cantrip out there AND the best debuff too, which is hex...
2 levels would provide invocations to bestow on my beams charisma as bonus damage AND 8hp temporary shield (less than 10%, I know, but there isn't really anything more meaningful to take, I'm afraid) which is a fun-sized selfish version of Inspiring Leader (@9th lvl would provide 14hp)
3 levels in warlock start to drop down in efficiency, because while Tome could provide extra versatility by exploiting Shillelagh with a Flame Tongue quarterstaff (but since PA was nerfed i can't use it with shields) and providing Guidance, which is one of the best cantrip for exploration and investigation; Chain and Blade seem pretty dull to me. Chain wouldn't provide spell resistance so there would be little benefit to have a familiar with me; Blade's only true benefit would have been to provide a quick way to ready a weapon, but it takes a whole action...I'm missing the point of going blade at all (as a multiclass, mind you)
4+ levels provide nothing worthwhile, I'm afraid. Yes, those two slots replenish at short rest and are always of your highest level, but they don't feel quite achieving as a sorcerer spellcasting would.
Keep in mind that this is a Gish-like build, which means it boosts it's melee effectiveness with spellcasting, not the other way around. I'm not planning to employ as much as many high end spells than a plethora of smaller ones. Shield spell, for instance, doesn't even upcast.

Let's focus on paladin 6 as baseline and sorcerer 3 (from now on "Sorcerer") VS warlock 2 sorcerer 1 (from now on "Warlock"). Two short + one long rest (i.e. 6 warlock spell slots)


Sorcerer provides 4 1st, 4 2nd and 3 3rd spell level slots; Warlock provides 11 1st, 3 2nd spell level slots (plus one from rod of pact keeper)
from Shield spell point of view, sorcerer converts 3+8+9sp in 1st level slots, which makes 10 1st level spell slots (14 if you consider the 4 original ones); Warlock has 13 slots available (of whom 2 of 2nd level) which makes it lose by 1 (but then again, Rod of pact keeper bestows an extra slot to warlocks) so it's a TIE.
from Hex spell point of view, while shield is provided by both hexblade and sorcerer, Hex is something you get by only dipping warlock. You could go Oath of vengeance for Hunter's mark, but it won't work on cantrips. Let's not start with resistances too: HM adds weapon damage (which is Magic) Hex adds Necrotic (which is 3rd or 4th most resisted type of damage IIRC).
from Divine Smite point of view, sorcerer still pulls off better in burst damage (3X 4d8 smites + 4X 3d8 smites)
Ranged Damage is nowhere contested by sorcerer. Warlock's blast will connect twice for 1d10+5 while sorcerer's will connect once for a meager 2d10. 1d10+5 means 10.5 AVG dmg, 2d10 is 11, so by just connecting once, with warlocks', you're on par with damage (let's disregard for a moment that fire is the most resisted damage on the MM and foce is the least or second least one) and without even taking into consideration the fact that Hex works with EB for 1d6 extra necrotic damage per hit. Things would be slightly better @ sorcerer 6, but we're speaking about "here and now" and warlock is nowhere contested in this regard.


Sorcerer can also quicken spells, which is something that optimize action economy too, so your nowhere small nova damage could become even higher.

This PC is meant to be a Tank, which means that melee performance has priority over ranged one, thus all the better ranged blasting has little relevance over the melee utility spells (i.e. shield), so here's the difficult part: melee performance.

sorcerer has 20DEX and 16CHA, which means 20AC, +9 to hit, +5 damage, +3 on all STs, up to 14 Shields, up to 28d8 smite damage over 14 applications (9 AVG DMG)
warlock has 16DEX and 20CHA, which means 18AC, +9 to hit, +5 damage, +5 on all STs, up to 14 Shields, up to 33d8 smite damage over 15 applications (9.9 AVG DMG)

As you can see, Sorc performs slightly better in regard of smiting damage but only because she has access to level 3rd spell slots.
I guess warlock is essentially there for better blasting (which is not a priority) and those +2 extra points in Saving Throws.


Conclusions

At level 9th, paladin 6 sorcerer 3 is still a better prospect than paladin 6 warlock 2 and sorcerer 1 UNLESS you're looking for those extra 2 points of saving throw and your campaign is filled with ranged encounters (and you like entering combat with those 8 temp HP, of course)
At level 10th, while sorcerer covers half the gap in Aura of Protection by going 18 CHA (with an extra feat), warlock will gain the Font of magic feature by going sorcerer 2, but nothing significant will change yet.
At level 11th, while Warlock will reach metamagic and 3rd level spells, Sorcerer will have access to 4th level spell slots (not spell level though); Warlock will outshine everything and everyone at ranged performance by adding the 3rd beam to the mix: 3X 1d10+5 [+1d6 from Hex] means a ludicrous 42 AVG DMG per action... Perhaps only a Hunter Ranger using volley on 3+ targets or via sharpshooter connecting both attacks, could do better... and i'm not sure it's that consistent though.

I guess it's just a matter of ranged performance then... unless I'm missing something out.

[djreynolds]

Yes because you can lean on charisma till higher levels, and then start buffing strength or find some magic item or gauntlets of ogre power

I can't guarantee your DM will go for it, the belt of giant strength, but it is doable

[Isidoro]

Yes because you can lean on charisma till higher levels, and then start buffing strength or find some magic item or gauntlets of ogre power

I can't guarantee your DM will go for it, the belt of giant strength, but it is doable

Gauntlets of ogre power and belt, apart from requiring attunement, are the least favorable items to pick as a DEX character that doesn't don armor.
We play in low magic environment (we have only 1 rare and 3 uncommon items at level 9) so I must choose wisely which magic item to pick :)

[djreynolds]

Gauntlets of ogre power and belt, apart from requiring attunement, are the least favorable items to pick as a DEX character that doesn't don armor.
We play in low magic environment (we have only 1 rare and 3 uncommon items at level 9) so I must choose wisely which magic item to pick :)

My fault I didn't see the homebrew for either 13 str or dex.

But in my experience, with full plate and the shield spell you will be fine in melee

But you want to be able to stealth and make a dex paladin and the homebrew is very helpful

So why not take this puppy to 11th level paladin and dual wield light weapons, and get improved divine smite on 3 attacks... this would help conserve spells and the hex blade would let you use charisma for attack stat with these weapons and you could then leave dex at 16.... just enough for medium armor master

[Isidoro]

My fault I didn't see the homebrew for either 13 str or dex.

But in my experience, with full plate and the shield spell you will be fine in melee

But you want to be able to stealth and make a dex paladin and the homebrew is very helpful

So why not take this puppy to 11th level paladin and dual wield light weapons, and get improved divine smite on 3 attacks... this would help conserve spells and the hex blade would let you use charisma for attack stat with these weapons and you could then leave dex at 16.... just enough for medium armor master

Dual wielding paladins do not benefit from dueling nor two weapon fighting Fighting styles, which means overall losing about 4 damage per Attack Action and 5(7) on the bonus action one. You could offset these by adding the improved divine smite bonus (4.5) which translates to 9 avg dmg per Attack Action and extra 4.5 avg dmg per BA, but:

1) you'd still be lacking in regards of ranged and horde efficiency.
2) you'd lower your AC by another two points, one if you'd take Dual Wielder Feat and without taking into consideration that Shields can pull their weight by providing extra AC (i.e. +1 Shield for a total of 3AC) or extra utility (i.e. Sentinel Shield that boosts your Initiative and Perception). You *could* dual wield a second weapon with a certain degree of utility (i.e. Weapon of warning that partly replaces a Sentinel Shield) or straight up going for a +1 weapon to boost your low output but this bonus would apply only to bonus action attacks, which for a low magic setting, is a bit wasteful.

If I had to build a proper dual wielder, though, I'd rather go for Weapon of Warning, dip 1 level of fighter, Dual Wielder feat and take both Defense and two weapon fighting, but this would bump me down the 12th level.

If I *must* abide to a level 11th character, though, I'd rather go with Polearm Master with a quarterstaff: dueling FS applies on attack action (1 handed damage is slightly better than versatile damage, being 1d6+2) and you can apply the fighting stile bonus to the butt attack as well (it still counts as a single one handed weapon) which then branches out to other possible scenarios:
1) DEX build with sunblade quarterstaff (the finesse propriety belongs to the magic item, not the base weapon)
2) STR build replaces the quarterstaff with a proper hafted weapon in order to exploit GWM's power attack feature. You'd replace dueling FS with GWF (but i'm not fond of this fighting style) or defense FS - This scenario requires two feats though.
3) Magic Initiate's Shillelagh for a 1d8+2 staff with dueling FS... which also could be exploited by DEX builds with sunblade qstaff - This scenario requires two feats though. This also could provide you Guidance (best exploration/investigation cantrip) or produce flame, that is not really better than hurling javelins unless your target has resistance to mundane or piercing damage... but hey, mini-lantern plus bonefire igniter all-in-wonder :v

This quarterstaff trick works even better if you can use a shield (a Sentinel Shield, perhaps? :v ) as well (with my DM you can't, though)

So, as you can see, I'm not too fond of dual wielding ^^;


Still, reeling this back In Topic, the whole elucubration is meant to break down the most efficient character between a paladin 6 sorcerer 3 and a paladin 6 warlock 2 sorcerer 1 one, with little regard of what will happen on the upcoming levels (which is still something to keep in consideration, but not as mandatory as focusing on what happens at level 9th :) )

[djreynolds]

Honestly there is so much you can do with this homebrew, the sky is the limit

You don't really need a really high dex if you can use hexblade and charisma for attack and damage. So its tough to narrow it down.

What I do see is you do have a reaction no always being used, except for the shield spell (limited) and a finesse longsword (sun blade) You could consider rogue arcane trickster, get expertise in some skills, 1/3 spell slot progression, some sneak attack, and possibly uncanny dodge (not as good as the shield spell but free) if you went to 5th level

Your options are limitless with the removal of strength and an amulet of health, which along with aura of protection helps a lot to protect your con saves and concentration

Rogue could provide you a lot, swashbuckler is fantastic for rakish audacity and fancy footwork and arcane trickster gives you some spell slots

Paladin, rogue, sorcerer... now medium armor master might become worth it as you now have expertise in stealth and maybe 3 more skills

I play battlemaster/swashbuckler.. strength based... but with uncanny dodge very tanky. And wish rakish audacity I can get my sneak attack in versus lone opponents ( I use a sun sword) and fancy footwork is as good as the mobile feat when in your case you need to move and lay on hands

[Isidoro]

Honestly there is so much you can do with this homebrew, the sky is the limit

You don't really need a really high dex if you can use hexblade and charisma for attack and damage. So its tough to narrow it down.

What I do see is you do have a reaction no always being used, except for the shield spell (limited) and a finesse longsword (sun blade) You could consider rogue arcane trickster, get expertise in some skills, 1/3 spell slot progression, some sneak attack, and possibly uncanny dodge (not as good as the shield spell but free) if you went to 5th level

Your options are limitless with the removal of strength and an amulet of health, which along with aura of protection helps a lot to protect your con saves and concentration

Rogue could provide you a lot, swashbuckler is fantastic for rakish audacity and fancy footwork and arcane trickster gives you some spell slots

Paladin, rogue, sorcerer... now medium armor master might become worth it as you now have expertise in stealth and maybe 3 more skills

I play battlemaster/swashbuckler.. strength based... but with uncanny dodge very tanky. And wish rakish audacity I can get my sneak attack in versus lone opponents ( I use a sun sword) and fancy footwork is as good as the mobile feat when in your case you need to move and lay on hands

This whole Rogue thing might work seamlessly, but I'm afraid that since I'm the only melee, I'll have some issues applying sneak attacks properly. Also I'm afraid this could clog the Bonus Action que too.

Still, something like Shield spell is meant to be there because this is a Tank, not a blaster, and especially because while an "ordinary" tank could easily reach 24 AC, this experimental build only tops 20 without spells, thus while having a backup reaction could be useful for those rare situations where I'll be missed with my silly 20AC, there is more than one reason to reserve the reaction for the Shield spell instead. :|

[Isidoro]

Let's play a wildcard here... what about tanking by Eldritch Blast spamming?

Close Quarters Shooter, from Unearted Arcana underdark:
You are trained in making ranged attacks at close quarters. When making a ranged attack while you are within 5 feet of a hostile creature, you do not have disadvantage on the attack roll. Your ranged attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover against targets within 30 feet of you. Finally, you have a +1 bonus to attack rolls on ranged attacks.

Instead of a flame tongue I'd go with a Rod of Pact Keeper, thus the whole bonus would reach +3. Still, nothing good happens on damage side (I don't get why +2 weapons add to damage and +2 implements don't)

meh probably a viable option from level 11th and forth (especially if you go warlock 2 sorcerer 3) but otherwise dull while on this side of Tier3 :v