Mystic thoughts?

[Typhon]

I know everyone is excited to finally have the Mystic class up and available. I am also sure that more than few have tried a build or two for a bit of hands on time.

My question is simple, what is the overall conclusion so far? I want to hear what thoughts others have.

Personally, it feels kinda familiar as a whole, but the individual Orders feel too disconnected from one another. That may sound odd, but Wu-jen feel like sorcerers while Immortals feel like fighters. I know that is my opinion, and I have stated my thoughts in other threads on that matter. However, overall, I like the Mystic more than I thought I would. It does offer quite a bit of flavor in each Order and the presented disciplines are reasonably well rounded (I said reasonably and not perfectly). I hope that they do add some more polish to the class as a whole, but I would also like to see some specific sub-classes for the existing classes from the PHB.

[DracoKnight]

Personally I really like their take on the Soul Knife. It's got some pretty powerful melee capabilities, and MCs well with a Wizard or Monk for an awesome fish character.

Overall I think the class still needs a lot of work, but not nearly as much as it did in v2.0. I would allow this version to be played at my table, whereas all previous drafts of the Mystic were banned.

And to point out just how strongly I had to feel about it to ban it: I will allow pretty much anything at my table, and I wasn't allowing the Mystic.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I find very little issue with the Mystic currently, and i agree with dracoknight on the soul knife, which i also feel is one of the few good twfers and i love how its gishy.

My conclusion: Almost there. i wouldn't even say it needs another version to go to UA, see what worked here, build on that then GIVE US A BOOK.

[Typhon]

I find very little issue with the Mystic currently, and i agree with dracoknight on the soul knife, which i also feel is one of the few good twfers and i love how its gishy.

My conclusion: Almost there. i wouldn't even say it needs another version to go to UA, see what worked here, build on that then GIVE US A BOOK.

I agree. I don't see a need for a Mystic V4 UA, more just a polish to 3.5 (which would be odd given how different 3.x was from 2nd and this) and it should be good for release in a book. Such as a revised PHB so any other class clarifications or addendums can be made simultaneously.

[Arkhios]

I feel that most of the unease regarding Mystic stems from its new (and fresh) mechanics and how flexible they really are. With ~30 pages the class already has immense amount of options, but the combinations are the real "troublemaker" because they multiply the possibilities to crazy numbers. Overall, I think that Mystic is quite alright, although I have to agree there are a few abilities that need clarification and/or a "nerf."

[Ferrin33]

I feel that most of the unease regarding Mystic stems from its new (and fresh) mechanics and how flexible they really are. With ~30 pages the class already has immense amount of options, but the combinations are the real "troublemaker" because they multiply the possibilities to crazy numbers. Overall, I think that Mystic is quite alright, although I have to agree there are a few abilities that need clarification and/or a "nerf."

Which abilities/disciplines or other things do you think need to be addressed?

[Sigreid]

I wish the nomad were more about travel. Using their mind powers to shatter the barriers between locations and eventually dimensions. But that's just me.

[Typhon]

I wish the nomad were more about travel. Using their mind powers to shatter the barriers between locations and eventually dimensions. But that's just me.

That was part of what I was missing.

[Hrugner]

They seem to have tons of mechanical power at the cost of narrative power. They seem fairly balanced against the other classes so long as we're talking combats and contests, but they appear at first glance to lack the world altering capability of full casters. Without having spent too much time looking through the material, I'm tempted to say that using mystic in place of all other full casters may make a game world more internally consistent.

[Belltent]

My only thought are the orders. Immortal needs to change it's armored defense calculation; it's waaaaay too MAD as it stands. What is the concept that should come to mind there? An unkillable, weak, intelligent, naked dagger wielder? I would also dump the healing ability from Avatar. It's alright, but again, increases MADness and isn't particularly efficient without a BA heal. Soul knife blades maybe need to start a little weaker and scale. Right now they are the second strongest dual wielder in the game; only beatable by feat+fighting style+2 magical weapons. Maybe d6s at level 1 and d8s at level 3 just to take it from no brainer dip to actual character decision.

[nilshai]

I wish the nomad were more about travel. Using their mind powers to shatter the barriers between locations and eventually dimensions. But that's just me.

I too agree with that. It's definetly not just you.

[Ferrin33]

My only thought are the orders. Immortal needs to change it's armored defense calculation; it's waaaaay too MAD as it stands. What is the concept that should come to mind there? An unkillable, weak, intelligent, naked dagger wielder? I would also dump the healing ability from Avatar. It's alright, but again, increases MADness and isn't particularly efficient without a BA heal. Soul knife blades maybe need to start a little weaker and scale. Right now they are the second strongest dual wielder in the game; only beatable by feat+fighting style+2 magical weapons. Maybe d6s at level 1 and d8s at level 3 just to take it from no brainer dip to actual character decision.

His own skin is his armor; constitution, but it doesn't hinder his movement; dexterity. If you max it, it's 20 AC, which is as good as plate with a shield. Forget about maxing it out unless you want to ditch intelligence. Its AC with a 14 dex and 20 con is the same as a half-plate. It's the kind of MAD that's good, as each way you lean to offers you a powerful boon. It offers something for people who choose to focus on disciplines which don't offer saving throws to be like psychic warriors, or just the people who want to run around without armor and brush of metal sticks with their skin.

I would dump the healing ability from avatar as well, but buff Psionic restoration to have a higher die for healing so it's not a wasted ability for avatars without that discipline and a better choice for mystics that... aren't avatars. But how does it make it more MAD? Int is the primary casting stat for mystics.

Getting a +1 to average damage isn't worth dipping into Mystic for, add to that the weapons you dipped in for can't become magical unless you actually take more levels in mystic. What are you comparing the soul knife with to see it as such a strong class? Regardless, it's not balanced around multiclassing right now, but even if you did, the Soul Knife is the very least of your concerns.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Soul knife blades maybe need to start a little weaker and scale. Right now they are the second strongest dual wielder in the game; only beatable by feat+fighting style+2 magical weapons. Maybe d6s at level 1 and d8s at level 3 just to take it from no brainer dip to actual character decision.

I don't agree with making the soul knife weaker. TWF is already not very good. its just alright. I'm pretty happy that they even thought of twfing with the soul knife in general. Also the weapons themselves aren't all that. They are just about good enough, though i wouldn't mind adding some scaling to 1d10s like at 6, though hone the blade kinda does that... Honestly i think the soul knife is more under powered than over powered and deserves some tweaks to make it better.

[Potato_Priest]

I would disagree with many of the other posters. I think that the mystic seems balanced in combat,(although it's a little frontloaded and may feel OP before lvl 5) perhaps even being a little bit weak, but that its out of combat utility is amazing. Being able to change your psychic focus at-will as a bonus action has immense out of combat potential, and the fact that many of their abilities require no somatic or verbal components makes them extremely useful and hard to detect in a social situation. While the mystic may not have the "a spell to invalidate every challenge" power that the wizard has, its out of combat potential is immense when it is in its comfort zone.

Now, one thing that I STILL don't understand about the mystic is this: What's the difference between psionics and arcane magic?

Psionics is altering the world with the force of your mind. Arcane magic is altering the world using the power of your mind, some funny words, and a wiggling of fingers. Is this really the only distinction?

[Ferrin33]

I would disagree with many of the other posters. I think that the mystic seems balanced in combat,(although it's a little frontloaded and may feel OP before lvl 5) perhaps even being a little bit weak, but that its out of combat utility is amazing. Being able to change your psychic focus at-will as a bonus action has immense out of combat potential, and the fact that many of their abilities require no somatic or verbal components makes them extremely useful and hard to detect in a social situation. While the mystic may not have the "a spell to invalidate every challenge" power that the wizard has, its out of combat potential is immense when it is in its comfort zone.

Now, one thing that I STILL don't understand about the mystic is this: What's the difference between psionics and arcane magic?

Psionics is altering the world with the force of your mind. Arcane magic is altering the world using the power of your mind, some funny words, and a wiggling of fingers. Is this really the only distinction?

Psionics is forcefully altering the world with the power of your mind, arcane magic is understanding the underlying fabric of the world and citing ancient incantations to bring effects to bear. Mystics use self-reflection whereas wizards study. One shapes his own reality, the other grasps the reality around him. Power within vs the power around you etc.

[Rummy]

Maybe I am missing something, but Soul Knife sees very weak.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I would never allow it or believe for a second that my DM would allow it. Completely, bats@%& OP to the max. It's basically six classes in one, each one too complex for 5E's design philosophy.

I still love it, and I can't wait for a non-broken version.

[Matticusrex]

I would never allow it or believe for a second that my DM would allow it. Completely, bats@%& OP to the max. It's basically six classes in one, each one too complex for 5E's design philosophy.

I still love it, and I can't wait for a non-broken version.

If your DM is allowing the cleric, wizard, or druid then he is a hypocrite.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Just an opinion, but so far martial Mystics (Soulknife and Immortal) look like they need to spend a lot of resources and actions just to be okay. On paper they can do a lot of amazing things, but when you break down PP cost and actions, that doesn't start to look all that impressive. Which is kind of a shame, because I was more interested in martial Mystic.

Forced Dual-Wielding on a class that already uses so many Bonus Actions feels strange to me. Immortals... all their features are focused on making them harder to kill, but I think they need something that actually helps them fighting. It's almost as if Immortals are better suited for casters that really don't want to die, instead of melee fighters.

Sure, Soul Knife buffed by Giant Form and Hone the Blade would have a decent DPR, but then you realize that these two buffs cost 14 pp at the start of each combat. 5 encounters means you out of resources with just that. You can't use your second attack or the defensive ability before round 3 of combat since both manifesting the blades and Giant Form require bonus action. I also would question the Giant Form as a universally good buff, because while reach is pretty nice, being Huge might be a problem in certain areas.

Also, even Warlocks, Bards and Wizards can get Extra Attack for free, while both melee Mystic archetypes - don't and the closest you get to it is "spend bonus action and 5 power points for a single attack" which of course is utterly garbage. "Smites", while they have huge numbers are lost on a miss, which makes them undesirable because you don't want to lose huge chunk of your resources for nothing - compared to that, "blasting" abilities still get half damage through on a successful save.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

If your DM is allowing the cleric, wizard, or druid then he is a hypocrite.

The fact that you honestly believe this is laughable.

See, the Mystic is like a Wizard, except he's also the Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, and Paladin all rolled into one, and he's BETTER at their jobs than they are. Oh, and he's also a Cleric.

[Jarlhen]

We've banned it from our table. We don't think the damage is going to be too much, we're not concerned with that. It's that it pretty much removes sorcerer and warlock from play. It can do anything at pretty much no cost. It's hands down the best class in the game, by a mile or two. Obviously there are situations where another class may outshine the mystic. But on the whole I see no reason not to have a whole party of mystics. In addition, the mystic has a ton of abilities which seem entirely un-psionic in nature, which only inflates the problem that they can do anything, and often times everything. We also feel it goes directly against the whole D&D design, it feels like something from a different game.

[Kuu Lightwing]

The fact that you honestly believe this is laughable.

See, the Mystic is like a Wizard, except he's also the Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, and Paladin all rolled into one, and he's BETTER at their jobs than they are. Oh, and he's also a Cleric.

Can I see a build where Mystic can be better than Paladin through at least three encounters in a day and still be able to do something else? With resource usage and action economy breakdown, not just "you see, if Mystic spends half of their psi points on one single attack and doesn't miss, and also there's a wall nearby and enemy doesn't fail a save, Mystic would do more damage than Paladin"?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Can I see a build where Mystic can be better than Paladin through at least three encounters in a day and still be able to do something else? With resource usage and action economy breakdown, not just "you see, if Mystic spends half of their psi points on one single attack and doesn't miss, and also there's a wall nearby and enemy doesn't fail a save, Mystic would do more damage than Paladin"?

A high level Mystic can drop 7d10 whatever damage (every discipline seems to get one) 9 or 10 times per rest. More if using their surge points. This damage, if they went for the psychic or force types, basically ignore resistance, hit hard, and still do more raw dice in damage than the Paladin. And that's their BASIC ability.

Their versatility is ridiculous, their power phenomenal. Wu Jen is basically Elemental Monk done better. Immortal is a superior Barbarian. And so on, and so forth.

[Kuu Lightwing]

A high level Mystic can drop 7d10 whatever damage (every discipline seems to get one) 9 or 10 times per rest. More if using their surge points. This damage, if they went for the psychic or force types, basically ignore resistance, hit hard, and still do more raw dice in damage than the Paladin. And that's their BASIC ability.

Their versatility is ridiculous, their power phenomenal. Wu Jen is basically Elemental Monk done better. Immortal is a superior Barbarian. And so on, and so forth.

Is Elemental Monk any good that we're using him for comparison?

And still, at high levels, a Wizard can do just as much damage if they decide to burn all their resources on that, but they have even more versatility. Does that make them a better Paladin?
Oh, they also have spells of 6th and higher levels, unlike Mystic. A single Disintegrate on average is twice as much damage.

What I'm trying to say here, is that it needs testing before getting to conclusions about it being OP.

[Pichu]

I think it's dumb that Soulknife doesn't get any disciplines....

[Ferrin33]

A high level Mystic can drop 7d10 whatever damage (every discipline seems to get one) 9 or 10 times per rest. More if using their surge points. This damage, if they went for the psychic or force types, basically ignore resistance, hit hard, and still do more raw dice in damage than the Paladin. And that's their BASIC ability.

Their versatility is ridiculous, their power phenomenal. Wu Jen is basically Elemental Monk done better. Immortal is a superior Barbarian. And so on, and so forth.

You're looking at these numbers in a vacuum without looking at actual damage potential or opportunity cost, the resources you need to spend on them are not infinite and the paladin in particular gets many other abilities as well.

Divine Smite: 54d8, can be spent when you hit a target without wasting any of it.
Lay on Hands: 100 points of healing.
Extra Attack without resource cost, allowing a bigger nova alongside Divine Smite and more damage without expending any resources.
Great all-round saves thanks to Aura of Protection, and great AC thanks to heavy armor.

To get these things as a Mystic you'd need to spend:
~44 PP on Psionic Weapon/Nomadic Arrow, or ~69 PP on Brute Force, each taking your bonus action and thus preventing another attack, and wasting those PP on a miss. That's not even counting the synergy that Great-Weapon Fighting style has with divine smite that increases their damage potential, and that they can use their Extra Attack to spend more resources in a single round for more burst.
~22 PP on Psionic Restoration to get the healing.
They need to spend 5 PP per encounter and concentration to get an extra attack with ranged weapons if they have the Nomadic Arrow discipline. If they want to get extra attacks another way they need to spend 5 PP for each attack, and they can't pump it up through their Divine Smite equivalent because it also takes their bonus action.(Honestly would never use Surge of Action from celerity as-written, though)
Their mental saves can be boosted by taking a discipline, which costs their reaction and another 1-7 PP per boosted save, each time they save. Their other saves can't be boosted in a similar way, and so will just be worse than the paladin regardless. Their armor class can be pretty good, if they invest PP into it.

I don't hear anyone saying the Elemental Monk is a good choice, it's a badly designed subclass. The fact that the mystic fulfills the same flavor-niche but actually works is not a bad thing.

The Immortal isn't a superior barbarian. Yes, he's tough as nails- if he invests the PP into it. But then he won't be hitting quite as hard. His resources are more limited than the rage of the barbarian, and without resources the barbarian will beat the Immortal in damage, although not in sustain.

Overall? The mystic can do a lot of things if he has the right disciplines, and spends the PP, but wont do most things as well as other classes that spend less resources relative to them. It's fairly balanced, although too versatile in lower levels. I made a thread with a link to some changes and fixes to the class if you're interested;

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b-yvibLAv56oJOQm4-8FB-zwEuqF5VMdyBPVXsRbIxU/edit?usp=sharing

[joaber]

A high level Mystic can drop 7d10 whatever damage (every discipline seems to get one) 9 or 10 times per rest. More if using their surge points. This damage, if they went for the psychic or force types, basically ignore resistance, hit hard, and still do more raw dice in damage than the Paladin. And that's their BASIC ability.

Their versatility is ridiculous, their power phenomenal. Wu Jen is basically Elemental Monk done better. Immortal is a superior Barbarian. And so on, and so forth.

Funny you said that, cus in a 6-8 encouter day, 5 combat ones, 4 round per combat, yo mystic get a damage close to paladin, barbarian, fighter or sorlock, ge need to spend all his psi points in damage, so good by versatility. And even so, the avg damage day of a lvl 20 is still lower than any of those.

You can't pick all disciplines, if you really make a build, you'll they don't have so many opyions how you think. Psionic mastery is good, but don't compare to lvl 7+ spell.

[War_lord]

I feel like that at some point they forgot what they where meant to be writing was a single class, way too much. EDIT: And what does changing size have to do with Psionics?

[Arkhios]

I feel like that at some point they forgot what they where meant to be writing was a single class, way too much. EDIT: And what does changing size have to do with Psionics?

I have a feeling that they've been using the Mystic as a way to test how Psionic classes (yes, plural) would work in general, and actually might separate some concepts from it later. But maybe that's just me.

To be entirely honest, while I could see Mystic as The Psionic Class, I would much rather see Psychic Warrior, Soul Knife, and the Wilder as their own classes.

As to what changing size has to do with psionics? Well, psionics is magic of the mind. If your mind can affect external things and the minds of others, one might wonder what couldn't you do to yourself?

[Ferrin33]

I feel like that at some point they forgot what they where meant to be writing was a single class, way too much. EDIT: And what does changing size have to do with Psionics?

You could say the same about any caster with their spell lists.

[War_lord]

As to what changing size has to do with psionics? Well, psionics is magic of the mind. If your mind can affect external things and the minds of others, one might wonder what couldn't you do to yourself?

When I think "Psionics" I think of things like telekinetic blasts, precognition, mind reading, mind control, levitation, pyrokinesis and so on. Things that are obviously supernatural in reality, but that could be explained with Science fiction. Drastic changes in size are more the department of literal magic, and I feel that if you're going to have both Psionic power and Magical power in one setting, it's very important to draw meaningful distinctions between the two.

[Arkhios]

When I think "Psionics" I think of things like telekinetic blasts, precognition, mind reading, mind control, levitation, pyrokinesis and so on. Things that are obviously supernatural in reality, but that could be explained with Science fiction. Drastic changes in size are more the department of literal magic, and I feel that if you're going to have both Psionic power and Magical power in one setting, it's very important to draw meaningful distinctions between the two.

Maybe. But then again, you can accomplish (almost) all of those things with spells already, which kinda makes it a moot point.

[War_lord]

Maybe. But then again, you can accomplish (almost) all of those things with spells already, which kinda makes it a moot point.

But then why have Psionics in the game at all if you're going to make them identical to magic?

[Ferrin33]

But then why have Psionics in the game at all if you're going to make them identical to magic?

Different way of acquiring and using the powers. I think Disciplines and power points are amazing.

Psionics are the power of the mind, forcing your will on reality. Spells are either by being attuned to reality in some way(sorcerers), studied how it works(wizards), have access to the powers of a god(cleric) etc. etc. Why can't everyone just be a sorcerer? Because crunch matters for the fluff.

Psionic Disciplines as they are now only go up to 5th level spells in relative power, and each discipline has a pool of abilities that fit a certain theme. Because of this you can balance disciplines differently than you would a spell; you can have a discipline with 7 different powers, each very situational, and another discipline with only three, but among which a powerful ability. You can have a variety of abilities that if you did so with spells; no one would use them. But because Disciplines are a pool of abilities you get everything in the pool, among which flavor abilities which you would like to use in niche situations.

Psionics are not identical to magic, especially not with the setup they've chosen to pursue. It's one of the most elegant ways of customizing and playing a caster that I've ever seen them do.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I feel like that at some point they forgot what they where meant to be writing was a single class, way too much. EDIT: And what does changing size have to do with Psionics?

Changing size has been there in 3.x, and maybe earlier. Psychometabolism school was all about making changes to your own body.

[Outliar]

I think it's dumb that Soulknife doesn't get any disciplines....

I don't think its a problem, its just like the bladesinger wizard, they don't have a spell school while every other wizard archetype does. Disciplines are not based around mystic orders, mystic orders are based around disciplines with some orders focusing on other areas (in this case martial stuff).

[Sigreid]

Changing size has been there in 3.x, and maybe earlier. Psychometabolism school was all about making changes to your own body.

AD&D Psionics had a discipline that changed size.

[Ferrin33]

The more I think about it, the more I think that the Soul Knife should be split up in several disciplines instead of being a subclass. A discipline that allows you to shape a single one handed Soul Blade that offers several abilities to use with a "Soul Weapon", then 2-3 more disciplines that give a different weapon type; one for a two-handed soul weapon, two soul weapons for dual wield, and maybe even a ranged soul bow/arrow. All of them giving a new ability to use that synergizes with other soul weapons.

Something similar should be done for other class features, the Soul Knife's "Consumptive Knife" feature can be expanded to steal health by spending PP, and give 1 PP(instead of 2) if you have it as your psychic focus. The awakened's Psionic Investigation and Spectral Form features could also be cannibalized into a new discipline each that focuses on that flavor.

Create a new subclass around the concept of Consumptive Power and don't make it a baseline class ability, one focused on burning out his body for more Psionic Power.

Keeping the base chassis of the class and subclasses clean of these things and turning many of them into disciplines adds a lot of customization to the class, allowing you to choose what kind of fluff you want with fitting mechanics.

[SharkForce]

so i've had a bit of time to think on it (and to hear some clarifications...)

and i've got to say, i think it's a bit strong for the early levels (not massively out of control or anything, but it is a bit much in terms of just how many things they can do at low levels), but for what is basically a full caster at high levels it is probably a bit on the weak side compared to every other full caster.

also, it is curiously devoid of any sort of ability to create permanent or long-lasting effects... i'm certainly not suggesting that permanent dominate should be a thing in 5e (although that would certainly accurately reflect previous editions in some ways), but it would be nice to see them do some of the useful things they did in previous editions, like condensing water out of the air, reshaping objects permanently, that could last for more than a few minutes or hours.

also, i would really like to see more talents. there's enough "damage stuff" talents probably, but some other talents would be nice.

[Deleted]

The fact that you honestly believe this is laughable.

See, the Mystic is like a Wizard, except he's also the Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, and Paladin all rolled into one, and he's BETTER at their jobs than they are. Oh, and he's also a Cleric.

Honestly, you could make a PHB II with just this one class due to the number of options.

I love me some "build your own" stuff but the mystic goes Cray Cray in the membrain.

[dejarnjc]

Honestly, you could make a PHB II with just this one class due to the number of options.

I love me some "build your own" stuff but the mystic goes Cray Cray in the membrain.

I really don't get the problem, it's effectively just multiple spell options. Took me about 10 minutes to build a level 6 mystic.

[Deleted]

I really don't get the problem, it's effectively just multiple spell options. Took me about 10 minutes to build a level 6 mystic.

The problem is that it doesn't fit with the other classes.

I'm all for "build your own" classes... Take a look at my sig. But the mystic has so many options that it makes the wizard and cleric look like... Well... The Champion Fighter.

Build flexibility is huge and is directly related to how powerful a class is. The more flexibility the more powerful.

I like the mystic, just needs to be broken up into a few classes...

OR

Make a PHB II with three classes... Martial, Spell-Caster, and Mystic.

[AuraTwilight]

It DOES fit with how 5E classes are designed, though. Classes are based on the narrative of how your adventurer gets his power and what he trains himself to do with it. The mystic is someone who trains who has psionics. They're not a "do everything multiple classes in one" class anymore than a wizard who can do multiple spell schools of magic.

[Knaight]

The problem is that it doesn't fit with the other classes.

I'm all for "build your own" classes... Take a look at my sig. But the mystic has so many options that it makes the wizard and cleric look like... Well... The Champion Fighter.

Build flexibility is huge and is directly related to how powerful a class is. The more flexibility the more powerful.

There's a fair amount of build flexibility, but there are also tight constraints on what any individual mystic can do, and it's the power of individual characters that matter more than the theoretical power available to a character simultaneously using every class option at once. As far as having so many options to make the wizard and cleric look limited - hardly. It's a 30 page class because the spell-equivalents are listed with the class, both the wizard and cleric easily have 30 pages of spells.

[Matticusrex]

The Mystic represents the flexibility more classes should have had when they were made. It's existence is a good thing and hopefully will influence future classes they release. No more fighters, monks, rangers, or barbarians, but something that can choose to play mechanically like them. Customization within a class can drastically alter it's depth and replayability and should only ever be encouraged. Sacred cows need to be slain.

[Dracul3S]

I like disciplines a lot. You do not choose single spells, but stuff like 'Fire mastery' and gain multiple powers based on that. It just seems more fitting for the kind of 'spellcasters' I enjoy playing.

[Deleted]

There's a fair amount of build flexibility, but there are also tight constraints on what any individual mystic can do, and it's the power of individual characters that matter more than the theoretical power available to a character simultaneously using every class option at once. As far as having so many options to make the wizard and cleric look limited - hardly. It's a 30 page class because the spell-equivalents are listed with the class, both the wizard and cleric easily have 30 pages of spells.

In aware of that but a wizard isn't a barbarian, fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard. When UA dropped the Wizard (Cleric Subclass) people lost their minds cause the wizard was then too broad.

The problem of broad versus specific comes up with core 5e, but that doesnt mean you should expand on it.

If you are doing specific classes, I would have preferred the Wizard be a specific class. Have all the current subclasses be their own class and give them specific spell lists (some universal spells).

Evoker, Transmuter, and Illusionist could have been three classes with different class features so that all wizards don't feel so samey.

The way the wiz/cler/other full casters are right now causes severe balance issues... And the mystic would just double that.

Or...

Make everyone very general and with a lot of build flexibility.

The Martial

The Spell-Caster

The Mystic

It isn't like there is no problems with core 5e, they are still there, but adding fuel to the fire isn't the answer.

[SharkForce]

giving more toys to wizard is a problem because wizard already has all the toys.

mystic isn't pulling anywhere near the kind of crap that wizard can pull. it doesn't make the wizard look bad except for the early levels where the mystic probably has a ton of disciplines and the wizard hasn't built up a full spell list (and archetype abilities that actually increase their available resources much of the time, not to mention arcane recovery which mystic doesn't get anything like).

well, ok, the stupid OP shadow summoning ability also makes the wizard look bad, but that's because that one ability is absurdly broken and needs to be altered (probably by not using the actual undead creatures called a shadow, imo... your ability to control light leading to the ability to drain strength and create undead does not make sense).

[Knaight]

In aware of that but a wizard isn't a barbarian, fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard. When UA dropped the Wizard (Cleric Subclass) people lost their minds cause the wizard was then too broad.

I'd argue that with the spell list available the wizard is still comparable, and that's without getting into whether people got mad because of excessive class breadth or because these were core classes in from the beginning (if slightly renamed in one case), and also the focal point of the whole arcane-magic divine-magic dichotomy that it a central feature of the implicit setting. There's a lot more leeway with psionics.

[pstoff93]

The fact that you honestly believe this is laughable.

See, the Mystic is like a Wizard, except he's also the Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, and Paladin all rolled into one, and he's BETTER at their jobs than they are. Oh, and he's also a Cleric.

You think so? I'm playing a lvl 10 Githzerai Soulknife in my current campaign atm. What i'm seeing is that the mystic is more like the poor mans version of every other class in one. It's like "Hey, I can do everything yall can do but not nearly as well or efficiently." Firstly, as a soulknife. By level 15 every other MELEE, DAMAGE-DEALING class will out damage me except maybe the ranger or monk depending on their tradition. On average, I deal 6 less damage than my party's paladin of equivalent level. In ONE more level. He will be out damaging me on average by about 12 points while my damage will remain the same for the next 10 levels. Yeah, I can turn invisible. I can teleport. I can do this. I can do that. But it just makes me versatile. Now SOME abilities allow me to do things better than another class can do it. But i will NEVER out perform or come even close to doing something better than another class does as a whole. The rogue will still sneak/skill junkie better. The wizard is still as versatile but more powerful thanks to 6-9th lvl spells. The paladin still novas better than me. The fighter/Barbarian deals WAAAAY more melee damage than me. The ranger will always be a better ranged damage dealer. The bard is just as versatile but a better skill junkie. Druids are druids, no class can really compare. Clerics outperform once they get 6th lvl or higher spells.

The only classes toes that the mystic kinda steps on is the warlocks due to similar design in their mechanics.
Overall. I'd say the SOULKNIFE is a straight up trap. A trap that I fell right into because I wanted lazer blades! Some abilities are on the broken side but the mystic as a whole needs some redesigning. As is, they are rather lackluster.

[pstoff93]

With all that being said. I will agree that an Immortal mystic probably out-tanks every other tanking class there is. On the defensive side. Some abilities are just ridiculous.

[Asmotherion]

I think an extra class was never needed, and could have been refluffed as subclasses for existing classes for specific settings.

I like the whole "telekinetic" idea as a matter of fact. I just like to have things more organised and if new classes pop up on the way, it's gona be a mess just like 3.5e all over again. I like to play a game were all classes are avalable in it's PHB and new classes don't just pop up, except perhaps for specific settings.

I don't even know how many classes there were in 3.5, but I'm aware of at least 17, being sure many more exist somewere in the books I never oppened. It was chaos.

Being able to have sub-classes as an build-in mechanic, is what I liked the most in 5e, since it allowed creative new archetypes every now and then, withouth bringing totally new and alien mechanics to those that didn't buy the new book:

-What's that psionic blade throwing?
-Oh, it's just a variation of my sneak attack, where I don't need to be hidden as long as I concentrate.

-What are Psi Points?
-Oh, they're just my reflufed Sorcery Points... I just get some Archetype Specific Bonus Metamagic through them...


Instead of:

-What the heck is a Psion?
-Well, it's like a Wizard, in that he casts with inteligence, but also like a Sorcerer, in that he uses some metamagic-like abilities... Except he is not an Arcane Caster... In fact he is not a spellcaster at all, kinda like a elements monk... but more casting oriented, though he casts no spells... Kinda like a mind-flayer, but more powerfull in the long run... Oh, and kinda like a Warlock too, in that you get Invocation-Like abilities, except you get more broken options than the Warlock... you get it?
-What? No, and BAN!


You think so? I'm playing a lvl 10 Githzerai Soulknife in my current campaign atm. What i'm seeing is that the mystic is more like the poor mans version of every other class in one. It's like "Hey, I can do everything yall can do but not nearly as well or efficiently." Firstly, as a soulknife. By level 15 every other MELEE, DAMAGE-DEALING class will out damage me except maybe the ranger or monk depending on their tradition. On average, I deal 6 less damage than my party's paladin of equivalent level. In ONE more level. He will be out damaging me on average by about 12 points while my damage will remain the same for the next 10 levels. Yeah, I can turn invisible. I can teleport. I can do this. I can do that. But it just makes me versatile. Now SOME abilities allow me to do things better than another class can do it. But i will NEVER out perform or come even close to doing something better than another class does as a whole. The rogue will still sneak/skill junkie better. The wizard is still as versatile but more powerful thanks to 6-9th lvl spells. The paladin still novas better than me. The fighter/Barbarian deals WAAAAY more melee damage than me. The ranger will always be a better ranged damage dealer. The bard is just as versatile but a better skill junkie. Druids are druids, no class can really compare. Clerics outperform once they get 6th lvl or higher spells.


The only classes toes that the mystic kinda steps on is the warlocks due to similar design in their mechanics.
Overall. I'd say the SOULKNIFE is a straight up trap. A trap that I fell right into because I wanted lazer blades! Some abilities are on the broken side but the mystic as a whole needs some redesigning. As is, they are rather lackluster.

This exactly is an other problem with the Mystic: Ultimate Versality is supposed to be the Wizard's Job. The don't usually deal tons of Damage either, but are arguably making the diferance between an average party and a top percentile party. Plus, LV6-9 spells are not attained in most games, making this irrelevent. You get a lot of freebees in one class and then can specialise in one of those things by multiclassing... It's really aweful, and I feel it's mechanics do not belong in 5e.

[jaappleton]

You think so? I'm playing a lvl 10 Githzerai Soulknife in my current campaign atm. What i'm seeing is that the mystic is more like the poor mans version of every other class in one. It's like "Hey, I can do everything yall can do but not nearly as well or efficiently." Firstly, as a soulknife. By level 15 every other MELEE, DAMAGE-DEALING class will out damage me except maybe the ranger or monk depending on their tradition. On average, I deal 6 less damage than my party's paladin of equivalent level. In ONE more level. He will be out damaging me on average by about 12 points while my damage will remain the same for the next 10 levels. Yeah, I can turn invisible. I can teleport. I can do this. I can do that. But it just makes me versatile. Now SOME abilities allow me to do things better than another class can do it. But i will NEVER out perform or come even close to doing something better than another class does as a whole. The rogue will still sneak/skill junkie better. The wizard is still as versatile but more powerful thanks to 6-9th lvl spells. The paladin still novas better than me. The fighter/Barbarian deals WAAAAY more melee damage than me. The ranger will always be a better ranged damage dealer. The bard is just as versatile but a better skill junkie. Druids are druids, no class can really compare. Clerics outperform once they get 6th lvl or higher spells.

The only classes toes that the mystic kinda steps on is the warlocks due to similar design in their mechanics.
Overall. I'd say the SOULKNIFE is a straight up trap. A trap that I fell right into because I wanted lazer blades! Some abilities are on the broken side but the mystic as a whole needs some redesigning. As is, they are rather lackluster.

The Mystic is the most versatile class in the game. You can pick Immortal, and be tanky, and still drop the equivalent of a Fireball or Lightning Bolt.

You can be a Nomad, and be elusive, teleporting around the battlefield while being able to heal.

If the standard classes are the A version, the penultimate of what they are designed to do, the Mystic is the B version. It can't do A as well as A, but it can pick up the slack that A can't do.

Two Mystics can cover standard party roles (however you want to define them, such as Healer, Face, Blaster and Tank) better than any two standard classes can.

Plus... Honestly, some of the stuff they can do is just better than existing spells. Mastery of Fire gets Fireball, but for slightly less damage (one die less), but also Prones. I'll take that trade every time.

And other things they can do, spells can't replicate. A massive Psychic blast that also imposes Disadvantage on saving throws for a round? Come on, that's ridiculous! Or how about Mastery of Wind's ability to impose Disadvantage on all Attack rolls against you, while using your Reaction to make enemies hit themselves!

You're 100% correct in that it doesn't out-Barbarian the Barbarian. Nothing really does, that's the point. I agree that as it is, SK is a bit of a trap. It doesn't stack up very well to a TWF. But TWF Fighters can't use Mastery of Wind, for example.

It's the B version. It doesn't do A as well as A, but you gain much more versatility.

[Asmotherion]

Things that are just Wrong with the Psion:

A) Telepathy: The Old One Warlock, who specialises in his subclass to get this, only comunicates within 30 feet. Why the heck would the Psion get 120 as a default class ability, without trading off anything is beyond me.

B) Talents: Like cantrips, except 1000 times more versalite. Why would a sorcerer bother getting 4 diferent elemental cantrips for elemental coverage, when the psion can just take Energy Beam, and change the elemental type as he wants? Or why bother casting invisibility, when he can Blind Spot at-will? Why would a monk have unarmored movement, when the Psion can have Light step with no restrictions whatsoever? What's the point in the Longuestrider spell then? Why even bother with casting spells to comunicate telepathically, when the Psion has an exclusive cantrip-like ability to do so? Mind Slam? Ha, the Battlemaster is stupid to use a resource to knock prone, you can do it at-will. Mystic charm? Hey, why be a Swashbackler or high level Enchanter to charm without them realising? The psion has a cantip for it. And has no limitation to use it on a hostile creature either. Hey, the Warlock got an Invocation to push things 10 feet with EB? Well why not give the mystic Psychic Hammer to move something 10 feet in any direction he wants? Why be an other class and dedicate yourself to it, wile the Mystic gets everything with next to no dedication?

C) Disiplines: I am not even going in detail on how broken some are, like that Iron Hide ability (basically AC on demand, overshadowing the Shield Spell by a lot), or the ridiculus bonuses you can get by Psychic Focus. I'm just gonna mention that, wile a regular spells-known caster (is it ok if I call them spontaneous casters like we used to?) has 15 spells more or less, and a wizard, without counting copying into your spellbook, has 44 at 20th level, the Mystic, like the Smart-@ss he is, activelly gets more or less 24, with an average of 3 options on his Disiplines. What's even worse is that some have ridiculusly low costs, as low as 1 Psi Point. This means that he can activelly save up his Psi points for Boss Fights, wile getting limited benefits too... Reminds me of the "having the cake and eating it too" proverb.

D) Mystical Recovery: Oh, you used a resource? Let me reward you by healing yourself with it... Meanwile, Spellcasters use their more limited spell slots, and the only reward is casting the spell they called. Wow... just wow. I don't even...

I choose not to mention how ridiculus the Immortal, Nomad and Wu Jen are. Or how poorly designed the archetypes are, since they give away all their bonuses (save 1) by 6th level... It's just stupid.

[dejarnjc]

Things that are just Wrong with the Psion:

A) Telepathy: The Old One Warlock, who specialises in his subclass to get this, only comunicates within 30 feet. Why the heck would the Psion get 120 as a default class ability, without trading off anything is beyond me.

B) Talents: Like cantrips, except 1000 times more versalite. Why would a sorcerer bother getting 4 diferent elemental cantrips for elemental coverage, when the psion can just take Energy Beam, and change the elemental type as he wants? Or why bother casting invisibility, when he can Blind Spot at-will? Why would a monk have unarmored movement, when the Psion can have Light step with no restrictions whatsoever? What's the point in the Longuestrider spell then? Why even bother with casting spells to comunicate telepathically, when the Psion has an exclusive cantrip-like ability to do so? Mind Slam? Ha, the Battlemaster is stupid to use a resource to knock prone, you can do it at-will. Mystic charm? Hey, why be a Swashbackler or high level Enchanter to charm without them realising? The psion has a cantip for it. And has no limitation to use it on a hostile creature either. Hey, the Warlock got an Invocation to push things 10 feet with EB? Well why not give the mystic Psychic Hammer to move something 10 feet in any direction he wants? Why be an other class and dedicate yourself to it, wile the Mystic gets everything with next to no dedication?

C) Disiplines: I am not even going in detail on how broken some are, like that Iron Hide ability (basically AC on demand, overshadowing the Shield Spell by a lot), or the ridiculus bonuses you can get by Psychic Focus. I'm just gonna mention that, wile a regular spells-known caster (is it ok if I call them spontaneous casters like we used to?) has 15 spells more or less, and a wizard, without counting copying into your spellbook, has 44 at 20th level, the Mystic, like the Smart-@ss he is, activelly gets more or less 24, with an average of 3 options on his Disiplines. What's even worse is that some have ridiculusly low costs, as low as 1 Psi Point. This means that he can activelly save up his Psi points for Boss Fights, wile getting limited benefits too... Reminds me of the "having the cake and eating it too" proverb.

D) Mystical Recovery: Oh, you used a resource? Let me reward you by healing yourself with it... Meanwile, Spellcasters use their more limited spell slots, and the only reward is casting the spell they called. Wow... just wow. I don't even...

I choose not to mention how ridiculus the Immortal, Nomad and Wu Jen are. Or how poorly designed the archetypes are, since they give away all their bonuses (save 1) by 6th level... It's just stupid.


As someone actually play testing the mystic... I think it's much stronger on paper than in reality. Tweaks are needed for sure but in a straight combat scenario my mystic (level 7) feels pretty average and definitely less flashy than the group's light cleric and paladin. I suspect that between levels 9 and 11 the mystic is top notch but once level 6 spells and other level 11 features come in to play that the mystic remains versatile but much less flashy than other group members. The REAL powers for the mystic that I would suggest tweaking is their low level - low cost teleportation, their AC stacking abilities, and their wall spells. Everything else seems fairly balanced so far.

Also, the Immortal isn't really that tanky (unless you roll stupidly well on stats). Definitely not more so than other martials/clerics.

I also disagree with much of your analysis. I think tweaks and changes still need to be made but the design feels very nice so far.

[Jerrykhor]

Things that are just Wrong with the Psion:

A) Telepathy: The Old One Warlock, who specialises in his subclass to get this, only comunicates within 30 feet. Why the heck would the Psion get 120 as a default class ability, without trading off anything is beyond me.

B) Talents: Like cantrips, except 1000 times more versalite. Why would a sorcerer bother getting 4 diferent elemental cantrips for elemental coverage, when the psion can just take Energy Beam, and change the elemental type as he wants? Or why bother casting invisibility, when he can Blind Spot at-will? Why would a monk have unarmored movement, when the Psion can have Light step with no restrictions whatsoever? What's the point in the Longuestrider spell then? Why even bother with casting spells to comunicate telepathically, when the Psion has an exclusive cantrip-like ability to do so? Mind Slam? Ha, the Battlemaster is stupid to use a resource to knock prone, you can do it at-will. Mystic charm? Hey, why be a Swashbackler or high level Enchanter to charm without them realising? The psion has a cantip for it. And has no limitation to use it on a hostile creature either. Hey, the Warlock got an Invocation to push things 10 feet with EB? Well why not give the mystic Psychic Hammer to move something 10 feet in any direction he wants? Why be an other class and dedicate yourself to it, wile the Mystic gets everything with next to no dedication?

C) Disiplines: I am not even going in detail on how broken some are, like that Iron Hide ability (basically AC on demand, overshadowing the Shield Spell by a lot), or the ridiculus bonuses you can get by Psychic Focus. I'm just gonna mention that, wile a regular spells-known caster (is it ok if I call them spontaneous casters like we used to?) has 15 spells more or less, and a wizard, without counting copying into your spellbook, has 44 at 20th level, the Mystic, like the Smart-@ss he is, activelly gets more or less 24, with an average of 3 options on his Disiplines. What's even worse is that some have ridiculusly low costs, as low as 1 Psi Point. This means that he can activelly save up his Psi points for Boss Fights, wile getting limited benefits too... Reminds me of the "having the cake and eating it too" proverb.

D) Mystical Recovery: Oh, you used a resource? Let me reward you by healing yourself with it... Meanwile, Spellcasters use their more limited spell slots, and the only reward is casting the spell they called. Wow... just wow. I don't even...

I choose not to mention how ridiculus the Immortal, Nomad and Wu Jen are. Or how poorly designed the archetypes are, since they give away all their bonuses (save 1) by 6th level... It's just stupid.

You are quite wrong on some points.

A) Well it'd be very odd if the Mystic is not better at telepathy than a Warlock. I mean, they are THE psionic class.

B) You have a point that the talents are a bit on the powerful side, but the Mystic only get so few of them. It sounds powerful when you list all of them, but the fact is, for most of your adventuring career, you only get 1-2 talents. This makes choosing talents quite a difficult task. I'd rather have a bunch of powerful options to choose from and only get to pick a few, than being able to pick plenty from a bunch of True Strikes.

C) Iron Hide is one of the weaker Disciplines, actually. Shield is a 1st level spell (equivalent to 2 pp), but to get the same AC bonus, you need to spend 5 pp in Iron Hide, which is the cost of a 3rd level spell. Also, it doesn't have Shield's ability to stop Magic Missiles.

D) You have a point on this one, but a DM can easily fix it by only allowing the heal on Disciplines of your own Order (which is what my DM did).

[joaber]

Things that are just Wrong with the Psion:

A) Telepathy: The Old One Warlock, who specialises in his subclass to get this, only comunicates within 30 feet. Why the heck would the Psion get 120 as a default class ability, without trading off anything is beyond me.

B) Talents: Like cantrips, except 1000 times more versalite. Why would a sorcerer bother getting 4 diferent elemental cantrips for elemental coverage, when the psion can just take Energy Beam, and change the elemental type as he wants? Or why bother casting invisibility, when he can Blind Spot at-will? Why would a monk have unarmored movement, when the Psion can have Light step with no restrictions whatsoever? What's the point in the Longuestrider spell then? Why even bother with casting spells to comunicate telepathically, when the Psion has an exclusive cantrip-like ability to do so? Mind Slam? Ha, the Battlemaster is stupid to use a resource to knock prone, you can do it at-will. Mystic charm? Hey, why be a Swashbackler or high level Enchanter to charm without them realising? The psion has a cantip for it. And has no limitation to use it on a hostile creature either. Hey, the Warlock got an Invocation to push things 10 feet with EB? Well why not give the mystic Psychic Hammer to move something 10 feet in any direction he wants? Why be an other class and dedicate yourself to it, wile the Mystic gets everything with next to no dedication?

C) Disiplines: I am not even going in detail on how broken some are, like that Iron Hide ability (basically AC on demand, overshadowing the Shield Spell by a lot), or the ridiculus bonuses you can get by Psychic Focus. I'm just gonna mention that, wile a regular spells-known caster (is it ok if I call them spontaneous casters like we used to?) has 15 spells more or less, and a wizard, without counting copying into your spellbook, has 44 at 20th level, the Mystic, like the Smart-@ss he is, activelly gets more or less 24, with an average of 3 options on his Disiplines. What's even worse is that some have ridiculusly low costs, as low as 1 Psi Point. This means that he can activelly save up his Psi points for Boss Fights, wile getting limited benefits too... Reminds me of the "having the cake and eating it too" proverb.

D) Mystical Recovery: Oh, you used a resource? Let me reward you by healing yourself with it... Meanwile, Spellcasters use their more limited spell slots, and the only reward is casting the spell they called. Wow... just wow. I don't even...

I choose not to mention how ridiculus the Immortal, Nomad and Wu Jen are. Or how poorly designed the archetypes are, since they give away all their bonuses (save 1) by 6th level... It's just stupid.

There is so much wrong in your analysis that I'm sure you never played with mystic, not even once. In fact, you probably didn't make one single character.

A) isn't full telepathy
B) until lvl 11 you only have 2 talents, so "versatility" in talents make no sense.
C) Iron hide isn't good. In fact at lvl 20 you can have 10 disciplines, about 45 effects, but many are useless, others are better versions of the same, and 60% is useless when you reach top tear. After lvl 11, many effects start to be useless. You need 3-4 actions to activate completly your psionic mastery pool, while a 6th+ lvl spell need only one, with better effect. Yes there is about 3 or 4 broken effects in discipline, in 100.

D) half of time mystic use bonus ation for other things, so they can't regain so much hp how you think. Others they are already full in hp. Soul knife is the worst, or he atrack with of hand or he heal or he use to parry, or for another 500 options. Good luck picking just one.

[Ruebin Rybnik]

When i first read through the UA Mystic i was like OMG Versatility and OP combat combos. Then i sat down and actually made a Mystic, i started seeing the sort comings.
Lvls 1-2 Mystic is really strong, lvl 3-6 is still good. After that action economy keeps them from combining to many disciplines to break the game.
The only passive abilities you get are from your order, everything else takes either action, bonus, or worse your action and an ally's reaction.
So even at high lvls when that get more psi points and more disciplines they can still only do 1 or 2 thins a round.
The higher lvl the campaign reaches the more lackluster the mystic becomes compared to other classes.