Tempest Cleric, doing it wrong?

[Alberic Strein]

Hello, I'm about to start a 5e campaign as a player, since I always loved the idea of thunderbolt throwing clerics I decided to make one. Since I pretty much have 0 experience at 5e and never really got into optimizing 3.5 et Pathfinder I really had no idea how good, or bad my character was.

So I took out Unearthed Arcana, looked up level appropriate encounters. We're starting at lvl5, so I whipped out one bandit captain, then two bugbears, and then four orcs, since I figured my cleric was going to be better at killing multiple enemies than one high HP foe.

Edit: I worded this extremely poorly. I meant to say that I did three different tests, each time with my character at full hp and resources and not, like my sentence seems to imply, all 7 of them at once. Sorry about that.

Oh boy.
Variant Human Tempst Cleric 5, Acolyte Background, rolled stats.
Str 16 (was 15 before racials)
Dex 8
Con 14 (was 13 before feat)
Int 13
Wis 17 (was 16 before racials)
Cha 12

38hp, 17AC (Splint armor),
Feat : Proficiency to Con saves and Con +1, War Caster.
Weapon Greatsword for +6 2d6+3
I am really unused to these kinds of calculations, but basically what I did was determine the odds to hit, and then modified the average damage by that.
Ex: Bandit Captain has +5 to hit, so 45% chances to hit and 3 attacks with an average 18.5 total damage. So I record his damage per round as 8.325, meaning my 38hp toting cleric dies in 5 turns.

Maybe that way of calculating the average damage is just utterly wrong, or at least doesn't take into accounts the rather extreme differences there can be in weapon damage.

On the other side, by the same calculation, my cleric wielding his greatsword does 5 damage, meaning I do need to burn my Wrath of the Storm uses for 5.4 damage (I couldn't find a DD for the ability, so I assumed it was going to be 10) and spells to heal (5.5 - 8 - 11.5 hp depending on the spell slot) and do damage (6.95 - 10.43 -13.9 for thunderwave and 11.55 for call lightning) and it's still a close call unless I use my channel divinity to maximise a 3rd level thunderwave for 25dmg (or 21 for call lightning). I can also use my first bonus action to use Spiritual weapon for an average 3.75 damage per turn.

My feats only have an effect when I use Call Lightning (at this time however it gives me a 99% chance of suceeding at my concentration roll) and said call lightning, spiritual weapon and one lvl1 heal when I get too low are the most cost efficient way to dispatch the captain, something I can barely do twice and only in the open. In a dungeon, cave, or rickety house I need to use my other spells, burning through my spell slots in half a dozen turns.

Against two bugbears or four orcs, my cleric fares better, since most of his spells hit multiple targets, but needs to use his highest level spell slots and other resources to finish the bugbears before they murder him.
In other words, while my cleric can clear one level appropriate encounter, two in the bestest of situations, three is a lost cause. As far as I read, the average number of encounters in a day is 4-5, with some of those being resource burners, and I don't see my cleric surviving that.

Looking at things, I'd be better off with heavy armor mastery and going sword'n board. My issue is that when fighting foes as a group I really don't wan't my bless to wear off because I waded into melee and got unlucky on my concentration roll and I very personally, irrationally, hate going sword'n board.

So yeah, thoughts?

[BurgerBeast]

Your character is going to be awesome and a tonne of fun. Tempest clerics are awesome.

I don't have the books with me right now, but I think you've placed your character up against a level-appropriate encounter for a Level 5 party. (Edit: never mind. I'm wrong.)

I'd personally go sword and board. (Warhammer for theme, but that's me.)

[Alberic Strein]

Thanks for the quick reply, edited my post to avoid more misunderstandings due to my poor wording. Honestly at this point I'm probably just going to get a single longsword, not even a board, and just put my money on spell pouches and components, since we're starting at 300gp and my armor already takes 200gp away.

[djreynolds]

What cantrips do you have? And what spells do you normally prepare?

[Alberic Strein]

For Cantrips I took :
Sacred Flame
Mending
Light
Thaumaturgy

For prepared spells:
1-Bless
1-Healing Word
1-Protection Vs Good & Evil

2-Lesser Restoration
2-Spiritual Weapon
2-Prayer of Healing

3-Dispel Magic
3-Mass Healing word (I'd LOVE to get Revivify, but I don't have the components to cast it)

[djreynolds]

For Cantrips I took :
Sacred Flame
Mending
Light
Thaumaturgy

For prepared spells:
1-Bless
1-Healing Word
1-Protection Vs Good & Evil

2-Lesser Restoration
2-Spiritual Weapon
2-Prayer of Healing

3-Dispel Magic
3-Mass Healing word (I'd LOVE to get Revivify, but I don't have the components to cast it)

Its a good list, I like AID and warding bond

And since you have war caster, you could duel wield light weapons if you want to save that spiritual weapon for something else.

But what I would do, is since you have a 13 in intelligence you could snag wizard and grab 3 cantrips like lightning lure, shocking grasp (good for melee), and even booming blade or thunderclap

And 2 spells chromatic orb and the shield spell... and you can cast these with your wisdom stat unlike magic initiate and when you want to.

[Alberic Strein]

Thanks for giving me a reason to look at Aid again, it is a LOT better than I remembered. That being said I still think 5hp to three people is a bit lackluster. Actually, considering the group is rather squishy (sorcerer, bard, druid and ranger) it might be a pretty damn decent effect to allow the squishiest among them to survive one hit.

Warding bond is a bit counter-intuitive (why would you want the guys with the heals to go down?) and a bit short for the effect, but like Aid it's concentration-free, another layered buff spell and again, seeing how squishy my team is going to be, that would be useful.

I'll have to run some tests about dual wielding, it might be a good option.

I'm definitely not trading a cleric level for a wizard level now, even though I really, really REALLY want to (seriously, why are there barely any actual "lightning" spells in the tempest domain? Where the hells is my lightning bolt?!) because my 3rd lvl spell slots are so damn important. I might get into it later, but I find that the longer you stay in a base class, the least appealing multi-classing becomes. Maybe not in 5e though.

It's really hard to say no to at will shocking grasp though...

[Sans.]

I'm definitely not trading a cleric level for a wizard level now, even though I really, really REALLY want to (seriously, why are there barely any actual "lightning" spells in the tempest domain? Where the hells is my lightning bolt?!) because my 3rd lvl spell slots are so damn important. I might get into it later, but I find that the longer you stay in a base class, the least appealing multi-classing becomes. Maybe not in 5e though.

It's really hard to say no to at will shocking grasp though...

Are you using your domain spells much? If you are and still aren't satisfied with them, if you dip Wizard, definitely take 2 levels.

[Alberic Strein]

I haven't really started to use them, the first game I'll be in will be in some hours, but looking at the expected damage of hand to hand combat, yeah. Yeah I'll be using them a whole lot. The main issue being that thunderwave won't let me exclude people caught in the blast, so shaped evocation would really be a bonus.

Or, you know, just freaking go cleric2 and sorc18 to bring some real actual lightning to the party.

That's what I get for trying to play what's essentially a single-classed good-aligned Stormlord, I guess...

[djreynolds]

The great thing about multiclassing with full casters is your spell slots increase still.

But yes you can hold off on wizard, but remember it is a cheap option to grab 2 levels abjurer for it arcane ward thing also

Warding bond is nice because you basically splitting the damage, so you can hang back and just heal yourself while a tank is getting busted up.... it works better with a life cleric

[Alberic Strein]

The great thing about multiclassing with full casters is your spell slots increase still.
They do?!

Well, now this puts some things in perspective...

Again, my main issue with warding bond is... It costs 100po to set-up and I don't have that kind of money.

It also does seem like me and my fellow paladin are going to be the closest thing to frontliners in this setup, so I'm not sure I'll be in any position to take hits for someone else, but we're supposed to do a quick stop at Waterdeep, if the paladin doesn't have any DR, I'll invest in Warding Bond.

[djreynolds]

Don't worry about warding bond... its not that big of a deal, its an okay spell

Honestly, I would just get that level of wizard and grab booming blade, spam the bless spell, and go to town.

The cantrips increase on character level, its thunder damage. And you strength is good enough not to need shillelagh.

You have resilient con and war caster it looks like, so you shouldn't drop to many concentration spells

Just lean on your cantrips that are lightning/thunder based, thunderclap is sweet, shocking grasp and I like lightning lure... could be cool coupled with spirit guardians... you just pull them to you and they take damage from little "Thor and Zeus"

1 level of wizard will give you this, and you can add to your spell book any 1st level scroll you find and use ritual caster... comes with wizard for wizard spells

[Sans.]

They do?!


http://engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Multiclassing

[Foxhound438]

4-5 encounters against a bunch of enemies is actually pretty unlikely in play. The most combats in a single adventuring day outside of super-murdery one shots is like 3 in my experience. any more than that and you're apt to see encounters significantly easier than what is "optimal difficulty" material.

Moreover, if you do get into a bunch of fights in a single day that are on the hard end of the scale, you can have your team focus down one thing at a time. If you're lucky, your team can burst something down in a round without expending a lot of your resources, and suddenly it's 4 PC's against only 3 captains, which is a much easier fight to win. This is best if you happen to be able to kill something before it has a chance to do anything to you, by the way.

[djreynolds]

Alberic Strein

Well whatever you decide to do, post it. It sounds like a cool campaign and very cool build and your DM is a real stickler for components

I have only gotten to play a life cleric in Curse of Strahd, so my advice might be fuzzy.

Wizard will be a good dip for you since you have the minimum, but that said.... Eldritch knight for 3-7 levels (talking war magic) could be very cool




Good luck storming the castle

[Dudu]

Ok, I played Tempest Cleric for some time, from lvl 1 to lvl 8.
It was tonnes of fun. The cleric itself is a beast and this subclass is one of the best avaible, imo.

Here is the botton line. The Tempest Cleric might be the best blaster cleric and one of the best blasters overall. Not joking. Better than Light domain, yes, because maximizing thunder damage hurts.

You do have the option to go the melee route. It works as good as you imagine, he has martial wpn proficiency afterall, and the thunder damage from divine strike is a good type of damage. Warcaster might be mandatory for go sword and board, not to count the advantage on constitution, which is a gift for any caster.

Archer is good too. Your reaction coupled with 10ft push can keep foes away. Divine Strike works with ranged weapon attacks as well. And if you happen to reach lvl 17, you get fly, which is a huge win for an archer.

Now let me take a look at your spells:


1-Bless
1-Healing Word
1-Protection Vs Good & Evil
Bless is one of the best uses of concentration avaible and it's right at lvl 1. Your party will be VERY glad you cast it on them. Healing Word is a quick "bring your ally to consciousness" and one of your most important spells. Don't ignore Cure Wounds just yet simply because healing word seems better. It scales better than healing word and there are times you actually want to use your action to heal, instead of your bonus, you'll see why.


2-Lesser Restoration
2-Spiritual Weapon
2-Prayer of Healing
Wouldn't change a thing. Prayer of Healing is a beautiful out of combat healing. Spiritual Weapon is concentration free and uses your bonus action. Remember when I said there are times you want to use your action to heal instead of the bonus? Spiritual Weapon is why. Lesser Restoration may be situational, but it's wonderful to have it when the situation demands.

Your domain's shatter is a surprisingly good blast. It might seems underwhelming with 3d8 damage, but Destructive Wrath can make it 24 thunder damage, and that's solid enough. Scales well.


3-Dispel Magic
3-Mass Healing word (I'd LOVE to get Revivify, but I don't have the components to cast it)
Both are kind of situational.
A cleric staple is Spiritual Guardians. It rivals with Bless as "best use of concentration". If you find there are a bunch of baddies everywhere surrounding you and your party, you couldn't ask for anything better. It's party friendly, with a good type of damage, and slows the foes down. That said, Tempest cleric is the only subclass that might ignore Spirit Guardians in favor of using their Call Lightning. Remember your class features.

[Dalebert]

And 2 spells chromatic orb and the shield spell... and you can cast these with your wisdom stat unlike magic initiate and when you want to.

Exsqueeze me? Is there a rule I'm unaware of that says he doesn't have to use intelligence for his wizard spells? What I've been going on is what it says in the multi-classing section on spellcasting, i.e.

"Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell." -PHB p. 164

[Tetrasodium]

They do?!

Well, now this puts some things in perspective...

Again, my main issue with warding bond is... It costs 100po to set-up and I don't have that kind of money.

It also does seem like me and my fellow paladin are going to be the closest thing to frontliners in this setup, so I'm not sure I'll be in any position to take hits for someone else, but we're supposed to do a quick stop at Waterdeep, if the paladin doesn't have any DR, I'll invest in Warding Bond.

is the druid land or moon? Either way, they can pretty trivially do the frontline thing with you guys or make sure nothing gets to the bard/sorcerer without having to run around much(if at all).

[Spellbreaker26]

For Cantrips I took :
Sacred Flame
Mending
Light
Thaumaturgy

For prepared spells:
1-Bless
1-Healing Word
1-Protection Vs Good & Evil

2-Lesser Restoration
2-Spiritual Weapon
2-Prayer of Healing

3-Dispel Magic
3-Mass Healing word (I'd LOVE to get Revivify, but I don't have the components to cast it)

Not a bad selection, for the most part. I prefer to take Spare the Dying, but it's far from necessary.

I do have a couple of suggestions however. I'd swap Lesser Restoration for Aid (Aid can bring people back from unconsciousness so it's a great versatile spell since it is both a battle spell and a non-concentration buff) and I'd take Spirit Guardians, which is probably the best third level Cleric spell (though call lightning challenges it). It's a fantastic panic button if you're ambushed and works as both crowd control and AoE.

[Tetrasodium]

I prefer to take Spare the Dying

Serious & honest question, why?



Healer’s Kit. This kit is a leather pouch containing bandages, salves, and splints. The kit has ten uses. As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check.
5Gp. 3 Pounds


both require touch & an action.

[Malifice]

Hello, I'm about to start a 5e campaign as a player, since I always loved the idea of thunderbolt throwing clerics I decided to make one. Since I pretty much have 0 experience at 5e and never really got into optimizing 3.5 et Pathfinder I really had no idea how good, or bad my character was.

So I took out Unearthed Arcana, looked up level appropriate encounters. We're starting at lvl5, so I whipped out one bandit captain, then two bugbears, and then four orcs, since I figured my cleric was going to be better at killing multiple enemies than one high HP foe.

Edit: I worded this extremely poorly. I meant to say that I did three different tests, each time with my character at full hp and resources and not, like my sentence seems to imply, all 7 of them at once. Sorry about that.

Oh boy.
Variant Human Tempst Cleric 5, Acolyte Background, rolled stats.
Str 16 (was 15 before racials)
Dex 8
Con 14 (was 13 before feat)
Int 13
Wis 17 (was 16 before racials)
Cha 12

38hp, 17AC (Splint armor),
Feat : Proficiency to Con saves and Con +1, War Caster.
Weapon Greatsword for +6 2d6+3
I am really unused to these kinds of calculations, but basically what I did was determine the odds to hit, and then modified the average damage by that.
Ex: Bandit Captain has +5 to hit, so 45% chances to hit and 3 attacks with an average 18.5 total damage. So I record his damage per round as 8.325, meaning my 38hp toting cleric dies in 5 turns.

Maybe that way of calculating the average damage is just utterly wrong, or at least doesn't take into accounts the rather extreme differences there can be in weapon damage.

On the other side, by the same calculation, my cleric wielding his greatsword does 5 damage, meaning I do need to burn my Wrath of the Storm uses for 5.4 damage (I couldn't find a DD for the ability, so I assumed it was going to be 10) and spells to heal (5.5 - 8 - 11.5 hp depending on the spell slot) and do damage (6.95 - 10.43 -13.9 for thunderwave and 11.55 for call lightning) and it's still a close call unless I use my channel divinity to maximise a 3rd level thunderwave for 25dmg (or 21 for call lightning). I can also use my first bonus action to use Spiritual weapon for an average 3.75 damage per turn.

My feats only have an effect when I use Call Lightning (at this time however it gives me a 99% chance of suceeding at my concentration roll) and said call lightning, spiritual weapon and one lvl1 heal when I get too low are the most cost efficient way to dispatch the captain, something I can barely do twice and only in the open. In a dungeon, cave, or rickety house I need to use my other spells, burning through my spell slots in half a dozen turns.

Against two bugbears or four orcs, my cleric fares better, since most of his spells hit multiple targets, but needs to use his highest level spell slots and other resources to finish the bugbears before they murder him.
In other words, while my cleric can clear one level appropriate encounter, two in the bestest of situations, three is a lost cause. As far as I read, the average number of encounters in a day is 4-5, with some of those being resource burners, and I don't see my cleric surviving that.

Looking at things, I'd be better off with heavy armor mastery and going sword'n board. My issue is that when fighting foes as a group I really don't wan't my bless to wear off because I waded into melee and got unlucky on my concentration roll and I very personally, irrationally, hate going sword'n board.

So yeah, thoughts?

Thoughts? You're not supposed to be doing encounters on your own.

And you are supposed to get at least two short rest during the adventuring day somewhere. On each short rest you are able to expend hit dice in order to heal. Also on each short rescue also recover your channel divinity.

[Spellbreaker26]

Serious & honest question, why?



both require touch & an action.

Mainly because the two cantrips that are really vital are guidance and sacred flame. Spare the Dying is fairly circumstantial, but if it ever comes in handy (because the guy with the healer's kit is too far away, or if we can't find one in a shop, or if we run out) it is a life-saver.

I mean, the things that replace it are resistance (not that great) mending (RP opportunities, but not vital) Thaumaturgy (same, but we usually have a Tiefling) and light (clerics can get continual flame, so for 50 gp can never need to use it).

[Hairfish]

Dual-wielding is a waste of a bonus action when you could just wield a greatsword and deal the exact same damage... unless you were going to take the feat for it, in which case I'd go with a shield and take Shield Master instead. Your main source of damage should be spells anyway, so a shield is generally a better choice because it makes you 10% harder to hit in melee. I'd also note that Spiritual Weapon uses your bonus action and does much better damage than an offhand weapon.

Tempest clerics get a lot better if you either get ahold of a weapon that deals lightning damage or take Magic Initiate to pick up Shocking Grasp; every fight turns into that scene from the Sherlock Holmes movie where Holmes blasts the big thug around the room with a cattle prod. If you go the latter route, consider taking Find Familiar as your first-level 1/LR spell so you can deliver Shocking Grasp at range and from multiple directions with a flying familiar.

Also, solo performance isn't really a good metric by which to evaluate the effectiveness of a character in a party.

[NNescio]

Mainly because the two cantrips that are really vital are guidance and sacred flame. Spare the Dying is fairly circumstantial, but if it ever comes in handy (because the guy with the healer's kit is too far away, or if we can't find one in a shop, or if we run out) it is a life-saver.

Everyone grabs a Healer's kit (real life soldiers and explorers do the same). Costs only 5 gp and weighs 3 lbs. Forty uses should last you an entire campaign (L1 - L10+), because it is so rarely used in the first place anyway (unless someone in the party has the Healer feat). As for why, well, it's usually a better idea to use actual healing (Healing Word, healing potions, etc.) anyway, as a creature stabilized by Spare the Dying/Healer's Kit/Medicine check DC 10 is still out for 1d4 hours. This isn't something you want to happen in the middle of an adventure unless there's no other choice.

One corner case I can think of that justifies taking Spare the Dying is when you need to stabilize a lot of dying creatures, like on post-battlefield injuries in an army or something. This almost never comes up because non player characters usually straight up die at 0 HP instead of dying and making Death Saving Throws. Sure, the DM can at his discretion let a creature be dying instead of outright die, but in my experience this tends to happen only to named NPCs or at least group leaders, not normal mooks.

There's also some other cases like Wizards with 1-level Cleric dips (to let their familiar deliver StD) or Death Clerics with twinned StD, and maybe modules/APs like OotA where the party starts off imprisoned and without any gear, but all of the above are well, highly circumstantial, at least more so than Thaumaturgy/Light/Mending.

As for buying a Healer's Kit, well, any village with a healer of some sort (folk medicine or otherwise) should have at least one for sale. It also can conceivably be crafted in a day (for 2gp 5sp of materials) by anyone with the Herbalism kit proficiency.




I mean, the things that replace it are resistance (not that great) mending (RP opportunities, but not vital) Thaumaturgy (same, but we usually have a Tiefling) and light (clerics can get continual flame, so for 50 gp can never need to use it).

Thaumaturgy in a way is inferior to Druidcraft and Prestidigitation, but it still comes into frequent use with causing distractions (via tremors or by creating sounds) or to open a door or window from a distance. It is also highly useful in RP scenarios to attempt to gain advantage on an Intimidate check (or to qualify as Helping a teammate in his Intimidate check). Even if you have a Tiefling or somebody else with the same cantrip, he might not be in the right position to use it effectively (unlike StD, where anyone can emulate the same just by having a Healer's Kit in their inventory).

(It's also useful for turning all flames green.)

Light is usually a cantrip tax for PCs without Darkvision. It can be emulated to some degree with Continual Flame, yes, but the 50 gp cost is still far more expensive than buying Healer's Kits to emulate StD (20 gp covers the whole party). Light also has other ancillary uses, like casting it on a projectile and then shooting it to light an area from a distance (or to cause a distraction), or casting it on an object and dropping it in a hole or some other fall to gauge its depth. Again, these circumstances come up more frequently then "not having a Healer's Kit and needing StD".

Mending is generally a quality-of-life cantrip that lets the party handwave away all gear-maintenance needs. This becomes more useful if the party is in habit of using easily-breakable weapons/items like nets or ropes and chains (for tying creatures), and can help the party archers skimp on ammunition costs (Mend broken arrows). Mending also lets you easily resize the length of ropes (very useful if there's a Wizard with Rope Trick in the party) and can let you cover your tracks after a break-in. It can also provide more meaningful ways to interact with the environment, like mending a rickety bridge to make it more safe for the party to cross (or cutting down a rope bridge in combat to deny access to your enemies and Mending it later). Really, if you are in situations where you can't buy Healer's Kits easily, Mending is far more useful for maintaining and reusing your other gear. It's basically Fabricate lite.

There are also a lot of nasty tricks that can be pulled off with Mending, like making unescapable manacles or pickproof 'locks' (must be broken open and mended), hiding items in your clothing or armor or a pot (tear, hide and Mend), ad-hoc lock-and-key identity authentication when you suspect Doppelgangers or other shapechangers around (break small objects in half and hand them to each party member, then Mend later to verify both halves were from the same object). It can also arguably be used to repair rusted or acid-corroded weapons and armor.

The Resistance cantrip is usually outshadowed by Guidance, but it can also be used on say, a trap-checking Rogue or Barbarian, especially if passive Perception is in play (which can't really be aided by Guidance). It is circumstantial, but such circumstances where you expect someone will be forced to make a saving throw in the near future is far more common than the corner cases which justify StD.

TL;DR: Avoid Spare the Dying like a STD.

[Spellbreaker26]

[Various good points]

TL;DR: Avoid Spare the Dying like a STD.

At later levels I tend to pick up the other cantrips, but at levels 1-5 the party may not have a healer's kit and it's fairly easy to run out of spell slots. If a player goes down and you don't want to burn one of your few spell slots on it you have that option.

Yeah, it may not come up that much but if you're not prepared then it can get really bad. (I was once in a session where about 3 players all lost their characters, and in the second session we lost another 2 to PvP over some loot). If we had had one person with Spare the Dying then we would have been fine.

[Dalebert]

I'm with Tetrasodium here. I think StD sucks when healer's kits exist. That said, there is one benefit to StD over a healer's kit that might be relevant when the time comes. It only requires one free hand. The kit arguably requires two. Doffing a shield uses your action. Donning it back uses an action. If you're a cleric who uses a shield, that's an issue.

[Saggo]

I'm with Tetrasodium here. I think StD sucks when healer's kits exist. That said, there is one benefit to StD over a healer's kit that might be relevant when the time comes. It only requires one free hand. The kit arguably requires two. Doffing a shield uses your action. Donning it back uses an action. If you're a cleric who uses a shield, that's an issue.

Two benefits. You can cast it through a familiar, who can Dash to reach a character that might be on the verge of failing and you'll still be able to cast (Ready or if your turn is before their's).

Sure, it's niche, but it's a lot more of a flexible safety net than a healer's kit, if you happen to have a familiar.

[Galadhrim]

So I took out Unearthed Arcana, looked up level appropriate encounters. We're starting at lvl5, so I whipped out one bandit captain, then two bugbears, and then four orcs, since I figured my cleric was going to be better at killing multiple enemies than one high HP foe.

Edit: I worded this extremely poorly. I meant to say that I did three different tests, each time with my character at full hp and resources and not, like my sentence seems to imply, all 7 of them at once. Sorry about that.

Variant Human Tempst Cleric 5, Acolyte Background, rolled stats.
Str 16 (was 15 before racials)
Dex 8
Con 14 (was 13 before feat)
Int 13
Wis 17 (was 16 before racials)
Cha 12

38hp, 17AC (Splint armor),
Feat : Proficiency to Con saves and Con +1, War Caster.
Weapon Greatsword for +6 2d6+3

In other words, while my cleric can clear one level appropriate encounter, two in the bestest of situations, three is a lost cause. As far as I read, the average number of encounters in a day is 4-5, with some of those being resource burners, and I don't see my cleric surviving that.

Looking at things, I'd be better off with heavy armor mastery and going sword'n board. My issue is that when fighting foes as a group I really don't wan't my bless to wear off because I waded into melee and got unlucky on my concentration roll and I very personally, irrationally, hate going sword'n board.

So yeah, thoughts?

There is a lot of advice to multiclass wizard or sorcerer. I would strongly recommend against that. Your Cha is 12 and your Int is 13. Sorceror is out until after your next ASI at 8 where you could pump cha to 14 and then multiclass at level 9. Wizard is available, but your int modifier is +1. That means when you cast you are rolling at +4 to hit for spell attack or a save DC of 12 which means you will do nothing a lot more often. You likely will never raise these stats, so that will fall further behind as you level and monsters CR increases. That is even worse if you use a spell slot to cast chromatic orb. Now, taking booming blade would work fine because it is made with your weapon stat, but that is a big investment for one cantrip. The faster you get to level 8 cleric, the faster you get your wisdom up, which helps you tremendously.

I know you say in your original post that you don't like sword an board (to each their own), but you will maintain your concentration much more frequently with a shield (+2 AC so you are hit way less). You don't raise your damage that much with a bigger weapon because you only get one attack per round (so avg. 2.5), and that is only if you take the attack action, which often times you won't because you are casting a spell. Given the resources your poured into maintaining concentration (2 feats) you might as well go all in. You are getting as much help holding concentration from a shield as you are from war caster

Tempest Cleric gets plenty of offensive firepower between the domain spells and the cleric list, and with your channel divinity you are one of the most offensive clerics out there. Next level you get to channel divinity twice per short rest, meaning you can use it in basically every fight. Yes, you will do better against multiple enemies than single target, but that's ok, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. You should be trying to end fights with your spells rather than healing unless someone is out of the fight (unconscious or incapacitated in some other way), in which case using your action to get them back in the fight is beneficial. If you are in a hard fight, an example of your combat might be channel divinity call lightning round one. call lightning round two, bonus action spiritual weapon. If they fail their saves you've done 30+16.5 damage with your call lightnings and another 7.5 with your spiritual weapon, and you are set to continue your damage until combat ends. Even if they succeed you are still doing damage for half, which is nice. At 6 you will also be able to implement some battlefield control by pushing 10 ft with your call lightning. If you want to help everyone else out with bless, you can lay the smack down with a maximized shatter instead.

Some combats are about party play instead of your straight damage per round. In that case you also excel. You have some good battle field control spells in fog cloud and sleet storm, and Spirit Guardians, as well as one of the best party buffs in the game in bless. If you are standing in the middle of the hoard, you can use spirit guardians to damage plus slow. You also can soak up hits and be the second tank with high AC and keep baddies off of your squishies, allowing them free reign to focus on damage. With warcaster, things will be reluctant to leave you since you can opportunity attack them with a spell. That is a huge boon to the party and really ramps up the groups DPR. Calculating one on one combat is a bit unfair to a cleric, although Tempest holds his own better than most.

Now I miss my Tempest Cleric.

[NNescio]

At later levels I tend to pick up the other cantrips, but at levels 1-5 the party may not have a healer's kit

Well, the healer's kit costs only 5 gp, and is basically "a leather pouch containing bandages, salves, and splints." Any L1-L5 character can buy one the moment they step into a town or even a village. It isn't a full suit of platemail or some expensive, semirare item, and can be easily bought with starting gold at chargen, like rope, extra ammo, oil, waterskins, torches, rations, the works.

I do see some value perhaps in an "you start captured and lose all your gear" campaign though.


and it's fairly easy to run out of spell slots. If a player goes down and you don't want to burn one of your few spell slots on it you have that option.

Well, if someone goes down, you have to eventually spend a spell slot or a healing potion anyway, unless you want to lug his unconscious body around for 1d4 hours. Might as well do it now and let him get a full turn of actions.




Yeah, it may not come up that much but if you're not prepared then it can get really bad. (I was once in a session where about 3 players all lost their characters, and in the second session we lost another 2 to PvP over some loot). If we had had one person with Spare the Dying then we would have been fine.

Just curious, but were you playing Out of the Abyss or something similar?


Two benefits. You can cast it through a familiar, who can Dash to reach a character that might be on the verge of failing and you'll still be able to cast (Ready or if your turn is before their's).

Sure, it's niche, but it's a lot more of a flexible safety net than a healer's kit, if you happen to have a familiar.

Healing Word, more action economy friendly as it costs a bonus action (even if it does prevent you from casting other non-cantrip spells on the same turn) and gives your previously-downed ally a full turn of actions, and doesn't require much set-up (in contrast, readying StD costs you your concentration, a valuable resource for the Cleric, and the familiar can potentially be taken out before it reaches your ally). Sure, it costs a spell slot, but you probably are going to spend one anyway unless you don't mind him being unconscious for the next 1d4 hours (bad idea in the middle of an adventure and also boring for the player of the unconscious character).

[Saggo]

Healing Word, more action economy friendly as it costs a bonus action (even if it does prevent you from casting other non-cantrip spells on the same turn) and gives your previously-downed ally a full turn of actions, and doesn't require much set-up (in contrast, readying StD costs you your concentration, a valuable resource for the Cleric, and the familiar can potentially be taken out before it reaches your ally). Sure, it costs a spell slot, but you probably are going to spend one anyway unless you don't mind him being unconscious for the next 1d4 hours (bad idea in the middle of an adventure and also boring for the player of the unconscious character).

Sure, but you're comparing stabilizing to healing. I was only comparing Spare the Dying to a healer's kit.

But to your point, in early levels (it's a possibility at all levels, technically) you could reasonably find yourself in a situation where you're out of spell slots and you need to stabilize someone. The Spare the Dying Familiar combo isn't your first option, it's your last, which is when you usually need it the most. The benefit is that it's so much more flexible than a healer's kit. The cost of a cantrip known isn't likely hurting a Cleric unless they got the Familiar through Ritual Casting and it's a freebie to an Undying Chainlock. It has a niche.

[Spellbreaker26]

Just curious, but were you playing Out of the Abyss or something similar?


Nope, it was actually a bunch of first time players (including me). No one took a class with healing, and we managed to botch every stabilization roll we had.

[Alberic Strein]

Sorry for the late reply guys, and thanks a lot for all your feedback.


Alberic Strein

Well whatever you decide to do, post it. It sounds like a cool campaign and very cool build and your DM is a real stickler for components

I have only gotten to play a life cleric in Curse of Strahd, so my advice might be fuzzy.

Wizard will be a good dip for you since you have the minimum, but that said.... Eldritch knight for 3-7 levels (talking war magic) could be very cool

Good luck storming the castle
Oh we stormed the castle alright. A giant floating castle in the sky. The worst of it is that we were in Waterdeep, relaxing around, and I thought I'd get one more day before things went to hell, so I burned my 3rd level spell for a Sending spell, contacting my boss and giving him a report.

We definitely have a little group of daredevils.


Mainly because the two cantrips that are really vital are guidance and sacred flame. Spare the Dying is fairly circumstantial, but if it ever comes in handy (because the guy with the healer's kit is too far away, or if we can't find one in a shop, or if we run out) it is a life-saver.

I mean, the things that replace it are resistance (not that great) mending (RP opportunities, but not vital) Thaumaturgy (same, but we usually have a Tiefling) and light (clerics can get continual flame, so for 50 gp can never need to use it).

Okay, earlier in the thread I had the opportunity to take a better look at Aid, and was pleasantly surprised. In the same way, could someone explain to me how good Guidance is? Because the way I see it it's really not worth it. I mean, 1d4 to a roll is good, but it costs a standard action and it's only to any one roll within a minute. And takes up concentration. I mean, it does sound extremely circumstancial.

Also, I don't actually have the 50gp for continual flame, so Light ahoy.


Dual-wielding is a waste of a bonus action when you could just wield a greatsword and deal the exact same damage... unless you were going to take the feat for it, in which case I'd go with a shield and take Shield Master instead. Your main source of damage should be spells anyway, so a shield is generally a better choice because it makes you 10% harder to hit in melee. I'd also note that Spiritual Weapon uses your bonus action and does much better damage than an offhand weapon.

Tempest clerics get a lot better if you either get ahold of a weapon that deals lightning damage or take Magic Initiate to pick up Shocking Grasp; every fight turns into that scene from the Sherlock Holmes movie where Holmes blasts the big thug around the room with a cattle prod. If you go the latter route, consider taking Find Familiar as your first-level 1/LR spell so you can deliver Shocking Grasp at range and from multiple directions with a flying familiar.

Also, solo performance isn't really a good metric by which to evaluate the effectiveness of a character in a party.

Yeah, I get that 1v1 isn't a good metric per se, even more for a cleric, which is supposed to really shine with and against a group. I just wanted a simple and easy benchmark to check if I f**ked up things too badly and that build was unsalvageable.

Also, to be honest I'm really not sure about magic initiate. I won't be able to take a feat for a while, since I want to max wisdom ASAP. I'm thinking something along the lines of: 8th level Wis+2, 12th Str+1 and Wis+1, 16th level Heavy armor master (or any +1str feat) and +2str at 19th level, which would let me max both.

1. I'm not sure I'll get hit by many nonmagical piercing/slashing/crushing attacks by lvl16, and that a -3 to such attacks would matter.

Alternatively, I could go : 8th Wis+2, 12th Observant (maxing wis) And then elemental adept, either for both lightning and thunder damage (because I hate having my damage resisted) or only for lightning, since thunder is resisted a lot less I think (even though I only have ONE lightning based spell...) and then a more defensive feat, like tough or alert to round it up.

I also suppose that maxing your main stat by level 12 is bad from an optimisation standpoint, no?

So yeah, I'm not sure I can make room for Magic Initiate, with things as they stand.


Everyone grabs a Healer's kit (real life soldiers and explorers do the same). Costs only 5 gp and weighs 3 lbs. Forty uses should last you an entire campaign (L1 - L10+), because it is so rarely used in the first place anyway (unless someone in the party has the Healer feat). As for why, well, it's usually a better idea to use actual healing (Healing Word, healing potions, etc.) anyway, as a creature stabilized by Spare the Dying/Healer's Kit/Medicine check DC 10 is still out for 1d4 hours. This isn't something you want to happen in the middle of an adventure unless there's no other choice.

One corner case I can think of that justifies taking Spare the Dying is when you need to stabilize a lot of dying creatures, like on post-battlefield injuries in an army or something. This almost never comes up because non player characters usually straight up die at 0 HP instead of dying and making Death Saving Throws. Sure, the DM can at his discretion let a creature be dying instead of outright die, but in my experience this tends to happen only to named NPCs or at least group leaders, not normal mooks.

There's also some other cases like Wizards with 1-level Cleric dips (to let their familiar deliver StD) or Death Clerics with twinned StD, and maybe modules/APs like OotA where the party starts off imprisoned and without any gear, but all of the above are well, highly circumstantial, at least more so than Thaumaturgy/Light/Mending.

As for buying a Healer's Kit, well, any village with a healer of some sort (folk medicine or otherwise) should have at least one for sale. It also can conceivably be crafted in a day (for 2gp 5sp of materials) by anyone with the Herbalism kit proficiency.



Thaumaturgy in a way is inferior to Druidcraft and Prestidigitation, but it still comes into frequent use with causing distractions (via tremors or by creating sounds) or to open a door or window from a distance. It is also highly useful in RP scenarios to attempt to gain advantage on an Intimidate check (or to qualify as Helping a teammate in his Intimidate check). Even if you have a Tiefling or somebody else with the same cantrip, he might not be in the right position to use it effectively (unlike StD, where anyone can emulate the same just by having a Healer's Kit in their inventory).

(It's also useful for turning all flames green.)

Light is usually a cantrip tax for PCs without Darkvision. It can be emulated to some degree with Continual Flame, yes, but the 50 gp cost is still far more expensive than buying Healer's Kits to emulate StD (20 gp covers the whole party). Light also has other ancillary uses, like casting it on a projectile and then shooting it to light an area from a distance (or to cause a distraction), or casting it on an object and dropping it in a hole or some other fall to gauge its depth. Again, these circumstances come up more frequently then "not having a Healer's Kit and needing StD".

Mending is generally a quality-of-life cantrip that lets the party handwave away all gear-maintenance needs. This becomes more useful if the party is in habit of using easily-breakable weapons/items like nets or ropes and chains (for tying creatures), and can help the party archers skimp on ammunition costs (Mend broken arrows). Mending also lets you easily resize the length of ropes (very useful if there's a Wizard with Rope Trick in the party) and can let you cover your tracks after a break-in. It can also provide more meaningful ways to interact with the environment, like mending a rickety bridge to make it more safe for the party to cross (or cutting down a rope bridge in combat to deny access to your enemies and Mending it later). Really, if you are in situations where you can't buy Healer's Kits easily, Mending is far more useful for maintaining and reusing your other gear. It's basically Fabricate lite.

There are also a lot of nasty tricks that can be pulled off with Mending, like making unescapable manacles or pickproof 'locks' (must be broken open and mended), hiding items in your clothing or armor or a pot (tear, hide and Mend), ad-hoc lock-and-key identity authentication when you suspect Doppelgangers or other shapechangers around (break small objects in half and hand them to each party member, then Mend later to verify both halves were from the same object). It can also arguably be used to repair rusted or acid-corroded weapons and armor.

The Resistance cantrip is usually outshadowed by Guidance, but it can also be used on say, a trap-checking Rogue or Barbarian, especially if passive Perception is in play (which can't really be aided by Guidance). It is circumstantial, but such circumstances where you expect someone will be forced to make a saving throw in the near future is far more common than the corner cases which justify StD.

TL;DR: Avoid Spare the Dying like a STD.
A lot of good info I'll have to remember to use!

Thoughts? You're not supposed to be doing encounters on your own.

And you are supposed to get at least two short rest during the adventuring day somewhere. On each short rest you are able to expend hit dice in order to heal. Also on each short rescue also recover your channel divinity.
For some reason I forgot I could regain channel divinity uses per short rests. That's a lot better, but I don't think my GM will follow standard adventuring days, from what I've seen.

There is a lot of advice to multiclass wizard or sorcerer. I would strongly recommend against that. Your Cha is 12 and your Int is 13. Sorceror is out until after your next ASI at 8 where you could pump cha to 14 and then multiclass at level 9. Wizard is available, but your int modifier is +1. That means when you cast you are rolling at +4 to hit for spell attack or a save DC of 12 which means you will do nothing a lot more often. You likely will never raise these stats, so that will fall further behind as you level and monsters CR increases. That is even worse if you use a spell slot to cast chromatic orb. Now, taking booming blade would work fine because it is made with your weapon stat, but that is a big investment for one cantrip. The faster you get to level 8 cleric, the faster you get your wisdom up, which helps you tremendously.

I know you say in your original post that you don't like sword an board (to each their own), but you will maintain your concentration much more frequently with a shield (+2 AC so you are hit way less). You don't raise your damage that much with a bigger weapon because you only get one attack per round (so avg. 2.5), and that is only if you take the attack action, which often times you won't because you are casting a spell. Given the resources your poured into maintaining concentration (2 feats) you might as well go all in. You are getting as much help holding concentration from a shield as you are from war caster

Tempest Cleric gets plenty of offensive firepower between the domain spells and the cleric list, and with your channel divinity you are one of the most offensive clerics out there. Next level you get to channel divinity twice per short rest, meaning you can use it in basically every fight. Yes, you will do better against multiple enemies than single target, but that's ok, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. You should be trying to end fights with your spells rather than healing unless someone is out of the fight (unconscious or incapacitated in some other way), in which case using your action to get them back in the fight is beneficial. If you are in a hard fight, an example of your combat might be channel divinity call lightning round one. call lightning round two, bonus action spiritual weapon. If they fail their saves you've done 30+16.5 damage with your call lightnings and another 7.5 with your spiritual weapon, and you are set to continue your damage until combat ends. Even if they succeed you are still doing damage for half, which is nice. At 6 you will also be able to implement some battlefield control by pushing 10 ft with your call lightning. If you want to help everyone else out with bless, you can lay the smack down with a maximized shatter instead.

Some combats are about party play instead of your straight damage per round. In that case you also excel. You have some good battle field control spells in fog cloud and sleet storm, and Spirit Guardians, as well as one of the best party buffs in the game in bless. If you are standing in the middle of the hoard, you can use spirit guardians to damage plus slow. You also can soak up hits and be the second tank with high AC and keep baddies off of your squishies, allowing them free reign to focus on damage. With warcaster, things will be reluctant to leave you since you can opportunity attack them with a spell. That is a huge boon to the party and really ramps up the groups DPR. Calculating one on one combat is a bit unfair to a cleric, although Tempest holds his own better than most.

Now I miss my Tempest Cleric.
A lot of great advice, thanks!

Ok, I played Tempest Cleric for some time, from lvl 1 to lvl 8.
It was tonnes of fun. The cleric itself is a beast and this subclass is one of the best avaible, imo.

Here is the botton line. The Tempest Cleric might be the best blaster cleric and one of the best blasters overall. Not joking. Better than Light domain, yes, because maximizing thunder damage hurts.

You do have the option to go the melee route. It works as good as you imagine, he has martial wpn proficiency afterall, and the thunder damage from divine strike is a good type of damage. Warcaster might be mandatory for go sword and board, not to count the advantage on constitution, which is a gift for any caster.

Archer is good too. Your reaction coupled with 10ft push can keep foes away. Divine Strike works with ranged weapon attacks as well. And if you happen to reach lvl 17, you get fly, which is a huge win for an archer.

Now let me take a look at your spells:


Bless is one of the best uses of concentration avaible and it's right at lvl 1. Your party will be VERY glad you cast it on them. Healing Word is a quick "bring your ally to consciousness" and one of your most important spells. Don't ignore Cure Wounds just yet simply because healing word seems better. It scales better than healing word and there are times you actually want to use your action to heal, instead of your bonus, you'll see why.


Wouldn't change a thing. Prayer of Healing is a beautiful out of combat healing. Spiritual Weapon is concentration free and uses your bonus action. Remember when I said there are times you want to use your action to heal instead of the bonus? Spiritual Weapon is why. Lesser Restoration may be situational, but it's wonderful to have it when the situation demands.

Your domain's shatter is a surprisingly good blast. It might seems underwhelming with 3d8 damage, but Destructive Wrath can make it 24 thunder damage, and that's solid enough. Scales well.


Both are kind of situational.
A cleric staple is Spiritual Guardians. It rivals with Bless as "best use of concentration". If you find there are a bunch of baddies everywhere surrounding you and your party, you couldn't ask for anything better. It's party friendly, with a good type of damage, and slows the foes down. That said, Tempest cleric is the only subclass that might ignore Spirit Guardians in favor of using their Call Lightning. Remember your class features.
Again, plenty of good advice, thanks a lot!

Is the druid land or moon? Either way, they can pretty trivially do the frontline thing with you guys or make sure nothing gets to the bard/sorcerer without having to run around much(if at all).
The druid can't be here most of the games, so mainly it should be cleric (me) healing bard, sorcerer (utility sorcerer?) and twfighting ranger. I suppose that makes three frontliners of us. I'm just not used to gnomish frontliners, I guess xD.

I could do a short after action report of the games if you want.

[Spellbreaker26]

Okay, earlier in the thread I had the opportunity to take a better look at Aid, and was pleasantly surprised. In the same way, could someone explain to me how good Guidance is? Because the way I see it it's really not worth it. I mean, 1d4 to a roll is good, but it costs a standard action and it's only to any one roll within a minute. And takes up concentration. I mean, it does sound extremely circumstancial.


Guidance is, no joke, probably the best out-of-combat cantrip in the game. So long as you're not concentrating on something, you can boost important checks like negotiations and trap disarmament without a problem. "I cast guidance" basically became a reflex action for me whenever a party member did something. Yeah, it's 1d4, but it's a free 1d4 in a game where that bonus can matter a whole lot.

[Alberic Strein]

You're... Damn right.

Welp, I am effectively blind it seems. I did contact my GM, but no cantrip trading with level-ups, so I'll have to get to lvl10 to get it (if we even reach that far.) Oh well, still a pretty damn good piece of information, thanks a lot!

[Galadhrim]

Guidance is, no joke, probably the best out-of-combat cantrip in the game. So long as you're not concentrating on something, you can boost important checks like negotiations and trap disarmament without a problem. "I cast guidance" basically became a reflex action for me whenever a party member did something. Yeah, it's 1d4, but it's a free 1d4 in a game where that bonus can matter a whole lot.

Completely agree. Guidance changed several failed skill checks into passes in our party. It is an out of combat cantrip for sure, but it has endless utility.

I got tired of saying I cast guidance after about 2 sessions so I made up some short religious phrases that I could say when I laid hands on people to assist their checks (it's a touch spell). This made a cantrip that I've seen some people on these forums get annoyed by into a fun bit of role play that helped all of the other characters see me as a cleric.

Everyone got so used to these little blessings that when I used divine intervention for the only time (our campaign ended after we hit level 10) and I had a page long prayer that I was going to read, instead of just listening, the entire table held hands and read it in unison in character. It was amazing. (And accomplished the character goal of converting the other PCs to Thor but never once preaching to them)

[Mjolnirbear]

It's important to point out that as an action, Guidance can't be added to any small-r reaction such as a dex check to grab the roof edge, a perception check to spot the hidden blade or athletics check to avoid a grapple.

It is also magic, and one can safely assume that strangers may not take kindly to your magic during a delicate negotiation, bribery attempt, or appraisal at a shifty black market; even less so when you're trying to not draw attention to things such as a stealth check, sleight of hand attempt or deception.

That said it is still a damn good cantrip.

Personally I prefer cantrips that go well with creative thinking, such as mold earth or minor illusion or shape water. Divine cantrips leave something to be desired.

[Alberic Strein]

Well, today happened.

So, our merry band comprised of a High Elven Sorcerer, a Gnome Ranger, a Human Bard, Human Paladin and Human Tempest Cleric (yours truly) all level 5, decided to walk outside of Waterdeep, rolled a 92 on the random encounter table and had our first real test fight.

I let the Sorcerer die.
We chanced upon 2 Hill Giants, 2 Orgres, and 2 Bugbears. We had the opportunity to lay a sort-of ambush, so we mounted our horses. The gnome ranger and human pally went on the pally's warhorse with scale armor, then the Sorcerer went on her riding horse, then the bard and I went on foot. Pally and ranger charged, I Called Lightning causing a measly 10 damage, halved for most. Likewise, the Sorcerer came closer on her horse, the bard didn't really have anything to do this turn. Then things went to hell. Both horses died, the pally lost half her health in the opening turn, and the sorcerer came into single digits of being K.O'd immediately. Did drop a pretty cool fireball into most of them though, while my call lightning could only hit two at once due to their positioning. For, again, ****ty damage that got halved with good enemy rolls. At this point the Bard dropped a Hideous Laughter at the Giant threatening the Sorcerer while I gave support to our frontliners (call lightning + healing word) which wasn't enough, considering the pally went down soon after. At this point the Sorcerer decided to unleash scorching death to the Giant, casting something like 8 scorching rays in one turn, for most of the Giant's life. On my turn, I again struck with call lightning and healing word, and positioned myself between the Hill Giant and the badly damaged Sorcerer. Said Giant decided to just straight up fall upon us. I took 29 damage, triggered Wrath of the Storm but couldn't push the Giant away as he was too big. The Sorcerer went into negatives and started the death saving throws. On the other side of the battle, the Bard decided that this encounter was over, cast Hypnotic Lights (or something, don't remember the exact spell) with rendered all enemies besides the Giant on our faces Helpless as long as nobody hit them. The ranger threw a couple daggers at our Giant, I called Lightning on its face while prone and grappled due to having 640pounds on my face, so having no somatic somponents to Call Lightning and succeeding at that concentration roll was vital. The last lightning did the job and the giant finally died. The bard brought the pally back, and the ranger and pally started slowly murdering each individual foe one after the other, while I failed at getting myself out of under the Giant, again and again, until the Strength 8 Bard got me out. Then we started searching for the Sorcerer, failing again and again and again as the die were against us, and eventually calling everybody to help get her out, but just one round too late. She died on her fourth or fifth saving throw and since I didn't have the 300gp diamond to cast Revivify and since I took the refusal of the healing bard as the group saying nope, not spending that kind of money on a reagent, I didn't buy the thing, nor prepare the spell. The GM said "no takebacks" and we held a short funerary prayer for the Sorcerer, which served as an IC reason to cast Prayer of Healing. Everybody got 16hp back. Except the dead.
So yeah, the Sorcerer slowly agonized next to the Cleric because nobody could get a line of sight on her due to 640pounds of Giant fat.

I did ask for the team to take trophies, so we might get paid for clearing that group, but still. Not really the taste in my mouth I hoped the first combat would leave.

Next time I'm riding my depressive horse in a 120ft circle around the enemies as I make Lightning fall upon them.

Thoughts?

Also, that should average to 980xp per adventurer, or am I counting wrong?

Also, this was the fabled 3 minutes adventuring day where I could go all out regarding spells... But due to a death in the party.

[Spellbreaker26]

Well, today happened.


Thoughts?



Ouch. It doesn't seem like there was a whole lot you guys could have done. Gentle Repose is usually a good call if you don't have the stuff for revivify but to be honest it really just seems like the dice screwed your guys over.

[Alberic Strein]

What I thought, and kicked myself over not preparing it. But the GM ruled Gentle Repose didn't synergize with Revivify. His thoughts were that crunch-wise Revivify is fine as a low rez spell and that allowing Gentle Repose to work with it was too much. Fluff-wise, the spell explicitely states that it has to be cast before the soul leaves the body, and Gentle Repose preserves the body, but says nothing about the soul, so it doesn't work.

This time I don't care, I'm spending the group's money on an expensive diamond, because against frontlines of Giants, our frontliners definitely need at least this much peace of mind.

[Spellbreaker26]

What I thought, and kicked myself over not preparing it. But the GM ruled Gentle Repose didn't synergize with Revivify. His thoughts were that crunch-wise Revivify is fine as a low rez spell and that allowing Gentle Repose to work with it was too much. Fluff-wise, the spell explicitely states that it has to be cast before the soul leaves the body, and Gentle Repose preserves the body, but says nothing about the soul, so it doesn't work.

This time I don't care, I'm spending the group's money on an expensive diamond, because against frontlines of Giants, our frontliners definitely need at least this much peace of mind.

I find this very confusing. Gentle Repose is essentially made for the purpose of giving Revivify a boost. Raise Dead is 14 days; if you can't find a diamond in two weeks then you're either broke or your DM is screwing you.

[Alberic Strein]

We started at level 5 with 300gp. Do you have any idea how broke we are?

Also, if you can find any piece of official FAQ that explicitely states the opposite then I may try and bargain to the GM (with little hope of success, they were talking of further nerfing resurrection spells) but otherwise he has spoken, and I am officially boned.

It wouldn't retroactively change things though. The player of the Sorcerer is rerolling another character (and still being hated by the dice) as we speak.

[Spellbreaker26]

Also, if you can find any piece of official FAQ that explicitely states the opposite then I may try and bargain to the GM (with little hope of success, they were talking of further nerfing resurrection spells) but otherwise he has spoken, and I am officially boned.


I guess what the GM says goes, especially about ressurection magic.

but for the record, it would indeed be a houserule.:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/11/18/does-gentle-repose-work-with-revivify/

[Galadhrim]

We started at level 5 with 300gp. Do you have any idea how broke we are?

Also, if you can find any piece of official FAQ that explicitely states the opposite then I may try and bargain to the GM (with little hope of success, they were talking of further nerfing resurrection spells) but otherwise he has spoken, and I am officially boned.

It wouldn't retroactively change things though. The player of the Sorcerer is rerolling another character (and still being hated by the dice) as we speak.

First, this is the exact situation gentle repose is made for. If not for this, then what?

Second, Resurrection magic is an important part of the cleric spell list. You get a Resurrection type spell with level 2, 3, 5, 7, and 9 spells. If your gm is planning to curtail that in some way he ought to have told you that before you rolled a cleric. I would think he should compensate your character somehow. That's a lot of power to just remove.

Third, those diamonds are for them, not you. If you die they can't be used anyway. The rest of the party is basically chipping in for a get out of death free card. If they don't think that's important, I wouldn't sweat trying to convince them.

As for how you played the battle, it looks like you did pretty well from where I'm sitting. I might have cast spiritual weapon and then used healing word if the paladin went down but not before. The other thing you can do, depending on initiative order, instead of healing the paladin for 5 with healing word is to cast sanctuary on him. If the enemy goes after you but before him that gives all enemies something similar to disadvantage to attack him.

Lastly, a sorceror needs to know that they are squishy and plan accordingly. Tanking giants isn't really a smart move for them. Having the giant fall on both of you and then making you roll str saves pretty much removed this from your hands so I wouldn't worry much about your actions.

[Alberic Strein]

Well, the GM is doing a good job at keeping us on our toes.

We doubled back to Waterdeep, had to deal with the elven mother of our dead sorcerer (so awkward I couldn't even get a panty-dropping smile in) and then we somehow managed to get paid 550GP total for our kills and by the diamond... We think. The thing is that the seller was an old merchant with wonky eyesight and ears (due to aging so I couldn't just minor restore my way through) and we horribly failed at our rolls to see if the diamond was, well a diamond and worth enough. Also, as the worst haggler in history, I proposed a 315GP price, since the jewel had to be itself worth 300GP and the seller had to benefit from the sale. I didn't want to end up with a slightly cheaper diamond that wouldn't trigger the spell.

So yeah, that done we hit the road again, slept at the inn of the midway village (hurray for spells!) and reached our goal of a city by the second nightfall. But right before we arrived our ranger picked up tracks, blood, a dead sheep, and then two arctic wolves were upon us. I cast bless, bard casts his "you don't do jack sh*t for ten turns" hypnotic patterns spell (on which the GM called for a nerf since it allows us to pick enemies one by one and for reasons underlined later) the ranger tried to tame the wolf, failed, we murdered the beast in cold blood, same thing with the second, only the wolf decided to disengage and make a bee-line for its Ice Giant master that arrived as the last rays of sunlight disappeared. We had taken so long with the two wolves that Bless disappeared, and visibility was going to be an issue. Sorry, I meant non-issue as the bard used faerie fire on the giant, which freed my action (otherwise I would have thrown a light enhanced pebble) to call some more lightning and summon my spiritual weapon and started piling some damage on both foes.

At this point you should wonder why I didn't mention the gnome ranger or the paladin. Well, that's because I skipped the moment where they horribly murdered the arctic puppy and proceded to pull the same kind of slaughter on the giant. Unfortunately the paladin had used her spells to smite the foes, but she still tanked hits like a boss for the whole fight. The ranger really consigned to memory how good rangers can be on theme campaigns. He read "And so the Giants started pulling some sh*t" and answered "favored enemy: giants." add bardic inspiration, hunter mark, and two weapon fighting to that, and you've got a gnomish death machine.

I still managed to steal his kills with a well damaging lightning.

On that note, I knew that I'd love maximizing my damage, but I never imagined how good saying "yeah no, screw rolling, just assign maximum damage" felt.

And as that encounter gave us our level 6, I now had twice as many opportunities to say that.

After a good night's rest, we were invited to the feast a noble hosted at the main plaza for his anniversary.

Still in the habit of failing our rolls, we ended up at the very furthest part of the tables. Which gave us some tactical advantage when three freaking hill giants attacked to plunder the food. Six guards where with us, three fled (understandable) while three held their grounds. The fighting grounds were split between the long tables where we had been eating. The paladin and a guard held off one giant while two other guards and the ranger fought off two others. Bard was on buffing duty and I was on ranged artillery (spiritual weapon+call lightning).

I never saw a man love his Haste more than the ranger. I actually had to ask him to tone down the running and jumping everywhere before he got struck by lightning. The first guard dropped before we got one giant, then the other two died as one of the giants fell over them, and incidentally over the long table our bard was on, at the other end. Unintentional bard throw. More fright than hurt fortunately. Well, except for the two guards. That being said, being prone next to a very hasty ranger is bad and that giant finally died, the ranger moving from one surviving giant to another, trying to finish the one he had been working on, then going to the paladin's as she experienced difficulties (read loss of over half her health in one hit) and gave a pretty nice flanking opportunity, then going back to the other giant as I went close quarters with him. I had the bard a couple of squares behind me, and I refused to give the bastard the opportunity to walk up to me and then flatten us both.

Finally I ended the fight with divinely enhanced kill stealing. I had to blow a 3rd level shatter to get them both, but worth it.

And now we're on the road again, hunting 20 horse raiders who are most definitely NOT giants. Which explains the GM cracking down on hypnotic patterns. If his next encounters rely heavily on swarming us with weaker foes (which suits me juuuust fine, I'm tired of only hitting two enemies tops with my spells), then getting swathes of them out of the fight would be quite problematic.

It's a nice change of pace from "get ambushed by more giants" though. And we might even get paid properly this time! In magic items!

Being a fantasy cowboy was never better.

[Galadhrim]

You seem to be getting the hang of things. Maximized level 3 shatter is nice. Just wait until level 9 when you can do it with destructive wave!

How is your gm nerfing hypnotic pattern? From what I hear it is crucial to party survival in storm kings thunder.

[Spellbreaker26]

I love it when a group can work in tandem together! If things get difficult, remember you can also prepare Spirit Guardians. It wreaks havoc against smaller foes and is a fantastic Crowd Control defensive spell.



How is your gm nerfing hypnotic pattern? From what I hear it is crucial to party survival in storm kings thunder.

I'm going to guess there are going to be a few enemies with either immunity to Charm or really good wisdom saves. But yeah, this is a really important question to know, because some DMs just go "no, your spell doesn't work because wibble wibble not good enough reason". Hopefully, he's not doing that.