Player has too high of AC

[HopelessGM]

So I'm very new to DMing and playing D&D in general. I've been rather flexible with my players by giving them good equipment and botching rolls if an overly-powerful enemy is about to kill them. At some point, I let one of my players get a hold of plate armor while they were still level 1, and their Armor Class somehow got boosted to 21. Now they've kind of taken over the group by being practically invincible, and I find it hard to make encounters where that player doesn't just take over the whole situation. What kind of enemies should I use so that it threatens the high AC character without hurting the other players and making them feel like a major part of the party?

[NecessaryWeevil]

Give them enemies that target saves rather than hit points. (But not too often. If a player works hard to specialize in something, they shouldn't be made irrelevant).

Give them encounters where Mr. Plate Armour can't be in enough places at once.

Give them encounters where killing everything is not the victory condition.

Give them threats that aren't creatures.

Read some of the excellent stuff here (or linked from here to elsewhere) on encounter design.

Good luck!

[BabyCthulhu]

If you want to keep things challenging, target other things than AC. (But remember to not punish a player for having high AC, non-intelligent items would still try to hit him)

-Spells that target saving throws.
-Pushs, prone, grapple,etc. (Nets or entangle for ex.)
-Enemies that get advantage against them.
-Stealth missions
-Charms
-Disarm
-Read and use the rules about donning it, then attack the party when resting.
-They are woth 1500gp. They are tasty for thiefs. Beware of sleeping on Inns.
-Rust Monsters

Etc...

[hymer]

So I'm very new to DMing and playing D&D in general. I've been rather flexible with my players by giving them good equipment and botching rolls if an overly-powerful enemy is about to kill them. At some point, I let one of my players get a hold of plate armor while they were still level 1, and their Armor Class somehow got boosted to 21. Now they've kind of taken over the group by being practically invincible, and I find it hard to make encounters where that player doesn't just take over the whole situation. What kind of enemies should I use so that it threatens the high AC character without hurting the other players and making them feel like a major part of the party?

Firstly, sit down with the player and find out how the AC got to 21. It's certainly possible, but you should know how the game works, and be sure both you and the player have it right.
Secondly, don't give them plate that early again, though I expect you know now it's no good.
Thirdly, have them advance in level at a brisk pace. By level 5 it won't be such a big deal that one of them has AC 21. Don't give out any AC-boosting items that the character can use before you feel the situation has been rectified.
Fourthly, use some opponents who do not target AC. Acolytes (MM p. 342) have Sacred Flame, which targets the dex save. Cult Fanatics (p. 345) also have sacred flame, and they can cast hold person to boot. If they cast it on the group juggernaught, the others in the party need to target the CF with attacks to make him lose concentration on the spell.
Also, use enemies that have pack tactics. Kobolds, wolves and thugs can all get advantage on attack rolls via pack tactics, and they have much better chance at hitting a high AC than their to hit bonus indicates.

[GorogIrongut]

Armour is wonderful. Armour is lovely. Armour can suck HARD.

Introduce them to creatures that damage armour.
Introduce them to creatures that have access to the spell Heat Metal. Your character will curse his plate and rely entirely on the rest of the party to save his butt.
Introduce your player to seafaring adventuring. If he doesn't want to drown... plate has to go away.

[Jarlhen]

This isn't a particularly big problem imo. In a few levels that advantage becomes normalized. I normally have my players do level 1 and 2 in one session each. Level 3-5 will take between 3-5 sessions. Sure, goblins become less of a threat early one, but that's a blessing imo. Level 1-2 and the PCs can go down soooo easily. Just throw a black pudding at them and the problem will be sorted. Or charm the PC and put him in a corner to think about his choices in life.

[Calibus]

Not that big of an issue. As others pointed out the occasional Spellcaster that uses Save DCs are pretty detrimental to AC reliant characters. Not too hard to work around, and by the time your players reach the 5th level, you should be good to introduce occasional creatures that have +8 to hit with multiattack.

[djreynolds]

If you are not going to take away the armor, might be uncool... force him into stealth missions.

Tell him if loses the greaves, gauntlets etc.... he can place them in his backpack and it functions now like "breast plate" and it takes say a short rest to switch back and forth

This way he doesn't lose anything but might be more inclined to downgrade when he's traveling and such

[Spellbreaker26]

Since it's 21, he's either made a math error or he's taken the Armoured fighting style. Which means he's put a fair bit of mechanical investment in being that hard to hit.
I'd say avoid actually taking away the armour; my advice would be to do a stealth mission which prevents him simply being able to stomp, and having creatures with debuff spells that work off of saves.

Normally, a level 1 character would never get plate armour; that's probably what's causing the imbalance but that will straighten out over time.

[MrStabby]

Just going to leave this here:

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/0227_UATraps.pdf

[Corran]

You gave him the plate too soon. If you start giving out good/magic items at a very fast rate, the game will suffer (or you might suffer from trying to find a way to challenge the players). Let your players work hard to get good stuff. Have them be patient. Dont spoil them. The plate has to go, at least for now, you can give him one at some later level. You could have thieves loot them, or a rust monster or sth similar damage it beyond repair, or even have the plate be cursed, so that after a session or two the player character has to get rid of it.

[Laserlight]

You gave him the plate too soon. If you start giving out good/magic items at a very fast rate, the game will suffer (or you might suffer from trying to find a way to challenge the players). Let your players work hard to get good stuff. Have them be patient. Dont spoil them. The plate has to go, at least for now, you can give him one at some later level. You could have thieves loot them, or a rust monster or sth similar damage it beyond repair, or even have the plate be cursed, so that after a session or two the player character has to get rid of it.

Strongly disagree with this. "I'm gonna take your cool stuff" is generally Not Fun for the player -- and the DM doesn't need to do that to threaten the player. A few DEX saves ("you're crossing the chasm on a balance beam" as well as Grease, Web, etc) will do just fine.

[Addaran]

Similar to casters, things with breath weapons will help do at least some damage.

[jaappleton]

Send some Dragonborn Sorcerers after the party.

Breath Weapons and spells that force saving throws.

If he asks why they keep targeting him, its because he seems to be the hardest to take down. Of course they're going to focus fire.

[Rhedyn]

Ignore it. 21 isn't that high. Add more monsters to encounters.

[Ferrin33]

Send some Dragonborn Sorcerers after the party.

Breath Weapons and spells that force saving throws.

If he asks why they keep targeting him, its because he seems to be the hardest to take down. Of course they're going to focus fire.

They're pretty low int if the enemies do that; you focus fire the enemy that is the biggest threat relative to the ease of taking it down. A wizard is a prime target, for example, but a fighter in full-plate hiding behind a shield is just swinging his sword around. He's both tougher to kill and less of a threat, no reason to focus on him first.

[mgshamster]

I try to focus on the guy with the high AC build because it makes them feel good knowing their build is working as intended.

They built for a high​ AC in order to be a tank and protect their allies.

Sure, sometimes I'll hit him with a Dex save or have other enemies target the squishier PCs, but if a player wants to have a protector PC, I want to ensure they're getting that experience.

[War_lord]

Just keep playing. Assuming you don't hand the player even more AC reductions his advantage will start to level out around level 5. If you contrive some means to take the armor off him, he'll feel cheated. If you start targeting him specifically he'll feel like he's being punished. If you scale the encounters up to be a threat to him, you'll actually just end up highlighting the power imbalance between him and the rest of the party right now.

Always remember that the players are playing with a totally different view of the campaign then what the DM sees.

[Submortimer]

So I'm very new to DMing and playing D&D in general. I've been rather flexible with my players by giving them good equipment and botching rolls if an overly-powerful enemy is about to kill them. At some point, I let one of my players get a hold of plate armor while they were still level 1, and their Armor Class somehow got boosted to 21. Now they've kind of taken over the group by being practically invincible, and I find it hard to make encounters where that player doesn't just take over the whole situation. What kind of enemies should I use so that it threatens the high AC character without hurting the other players and making them feel like a major part of the party?

Just keep playing. Level 1 should honestly last a session at most, same with level 2. Once you hit level three, you can throw some bigger baddies at the group, and while he'll likely still stomp on mooks your standard hobgoblin can hit a 21 AC without too much stress.

Said character must be a Fighter with a shield and the Defensive fighting style, which means he's focusing AC. If it continues to be a problem (which, I assure you, it won't), you just need to throw in things every so often that target things like Wisdom and Dexterity saves.

[Slipperychicken]

He has six saves you can target. Also they won't be level 1 forever. Within a few sessions everyone will scale up to it anyway.


So I say relax on the DM-hammer for now. This will work itself out. Besides, it's not like you want them to die at level 1 anyway.

[Deleted]

21 AC is perfectly fine at level 1. Especially for a melee type.

It isn't like they are gonna do all that much else than get targeted and kill things. No real left field abilities after all.

Do target other defenses, which you should be doing anyways, but have an overwhelmingly majority of targets be against AC.

1: Crits still happen.

2: Player is gonna feel immortal as all hell. Let them go on for 2 or so levels and throw a hard/deadly encounter at them. When the armored one gets hit, and hit HARD, it will be a real stunner to that player and the others that things just got real. Like going from Zelda to Dark Souls (no, BotW isn't as tough as Dark Souls).

3: Have the creature that does #2 be a simple creature like a goblin or halfling... Really messes with their sense of in game reality.

[Unoriginal]

A plate armor at level 1 is gonna be worth nearly twice the value of the equipment of the entire's group, including treasure found on their first adventure.


It's worth more and is more useful than quite a few magic items

[Deleted]

A plate armor at level 1 is gonna be worth nearly twice the value of the equipment of the entire's group, including treasure found on their first adventure.


It's worth more and is more useful than quite a few magic items

Only if you are a lazy DM who doesn't want to get creative.

[lperkins2]

AC 20-21 is pretty much what I'd expect an AC optimized PC to start with. A fighter can get it from plate armour + feat, a cleric has shield of faith. A v-human point-buy barbarian has AC 16 base, +2 shield, +2 defensive duelist, plus resistance to damage. My front-line stone sorcerer has AC 18 at first level, with access to shield for short-term AC 23, if he gets in over his head, he can cast blade ward to get resistance to damage, and since that's a cantrip, he can keep it up all day.

If the players work together, it gets bad fast (a cleric can drop SoF on the tank, giving him AC 23 for 10 minutes).

You are probably suffering as much from and imbalance in player experience as much as anything.

[Unoriginal]

Only if you are a lazy DM who doesn't want to get creative.

...what are you even talking about?

A DM being lazy or not has nothing to do with anything I said. A plate armor is worth a fortune compared to what the rest of the group would normally have access at level 1. The DM can give more equipment if they want to, sure, but it doesn't indicate lack of creativity or laziness. Some DMs give lots of expensive stuff to their PCs because they lack creativity or are feeling lazy and just go for the "players like shinnies" button.


And it's factual that there are several magic items less expensive and with less use than a plate armor.

[Deleted]

...what are you even talking about?

A DM being lazy or not has nothing to do with anything I said. A plate armor is worth a fortune compared to what the rest of the group would normally have access at level 1. The DM can give more equipment if they want to, sure, but it doesn't indicate lack of creativity or laziness. Some DMs give lots of expensive stuff to their PCs because they lack creativity or are feeling lazy and just go for the "players like shinnies" button.


And it's factual that there are several magic items less expensive and with less use than a plate armor.

Yes it does.

If all you are doing is attacking AC or putting players in situations where AC is always the best thing to have... You are an incredibly lazy DM.

Now, you may also be new, but if you work at it, and not be lazy, this stops being an issue.

There are 6+ other defenses, there are athletic checks (shove prone, advantage on attacks), there is the help action, there is so adventuring and other things you can put in the game that AC is no better than any other defense, magic item, or whatever else.

As long as you aren't a lazy DM. Work at it and become better. High AC characters being a problem is only a problem if the DM allows it to be a problem.

Platemail is less useful than a thieves kit when you make the game less about *how much HP can I drain from my PCs*.

[Unoriginal]

Yes it does.

If all you are doing is attacking AC or putting players in situations where AC is always the best thing to have... You are an incredibly lazy DM.

What are you even talking about? I did not say anything about AC always being the best





There are 6+ other defenses, there are athletic checks (shove prone, advantage on attacks), there is the help action, there is so adventuring and other things you can put in the game that AC is no better than any other defense, magic item, or whatever else.

That does not change that plate armor's effect is more useful than the one of, say, a spell scroll of low level, . Plate armor provide a constant boost to AC in a way that helps characters with low DEX a lot, which is useful in any combat situation. Yes, there are other options, and there are plenty of ways to go around it, but it doesn't change that making a character less vulnerable to one thing is useful.



High AC characters being a problem is only a problem if the DM allows it to be a problem.

I've never said it was a problem that the character has high AC. Doesn't change that it's a big boon to give to a low-level adventurers, compared to what the other characters are likely to get.



Platemail is less useful than a thieves kit when you make the game less about *how much HP can I drain from my PCs*.

A thieves' kit is more useful when you need a thieves' kit, yes. It doesn't change that having a high AC is pretty useful when fighting, or that the DM is being lazy or lacking creativity for making the PCs fight.

[Arc-Royal]

Either spells/abilities that target saves, or good ol' Magic Missile. Especially Magic Missile.

You might not want to throw Magic Missile at them at level 1 (because it could insta-gib them), but it's an idea. You could give an enemy a scroll of magic missile so you don't have to give the enemy caster levels and they can only toss one casting out (without your players being able to recover it after its use as they would with a Wand of Magic Missile, which would mean another powerful item for your players), and it'd still be enough to drive the point home that the tank isn't invincible.

I'd completely forgotten about traps until other folks mentioned them.

Plus, you could always just throw overwhelming numbers of enemies at them (especially enemies with Pack Tactics), and something's eventually going to get through. Or enemies who are hidden behind fortifications (firing through arrow slits or something of the sort) that deny them the ability to hit back effectively while being exposed to lots of attacks. Makes me think a bit of Tucker's Kobolds, really. Make your enemies smart. :D

[HopelessGM]

Similar to casters, things with breath weapons will help do at least some damage.

All of the stuff that's been coming in has been super helpful, but this especially so, considering we're playing a campaign centered around a dragon cult. Thank you!

[Addaran]

All of the stuff that's been coming in has been super helpful, but this especially so, considering we're playing a campaign centered around a dragon cult. Thank you!

Yay, i'm usefull!

Using dragonborns (either as dragonborn or for "weak" dragon-blooded humans) would work great in your campaign. They'll only ever use it once per combat and for the rest you can give them the stats of soldiers/scouts/thugs/whatever.

[Deleted]

A plate armor at level 1 is gonna be worth nearly twice the value of the equipment of the entire's group, including treasure found on their first adventure.

It's worth more and is more useful than quite a few magic items

AC 21 is of no extra value to the player than any other piece of equipment that players will have at level 1. If you don't have a lazy DM. The are 13 defenses in 5e, not 7 (though I feel like I'm missing one lol), as some things require checks and not saves or requires an attack roll and not a save..



Armor Class
Strength Save
Strength Check
Dexterity Save
Dexterity Check
Constitution Save
Constitution Check (
Intelligence Save
Intelligence Check (illusions aren't a save all the time)
Wisdom Save
Wisdom Check
Charisma Save
Charisma Check



If you can't come up with a way to challenge a player with this many options, you are just being lazy.

If you have a DM that isn't lazy, as even new DMs who aren't lazy can learn and get better, then that platemail is not an issue in the slightest. It's worth is no more or less than any other piece of equipment or armor that a character will come across.

Now, I'm all for a player having 21 AC and pointed out a very simple way to use this to a DM's advantage to really make players drop a brick. There is also Strength Checks to prone the character giving advantage on attacks. There is also dex saves. There is the help action. There is all the other saves and checks and things you could do.

Platemail is only worth more if you look at the GP value, the actual use/real value is non-existent (unless you have a lazy DM).

[BW022]

AC 21 is about as high as you can get baring magic. That is platemail (AC 18), shield (+2), plus the fighter defensive style (+1). Yes, a creature which is only +3 to attacks now needs an 18 or higher to hit.

First lesson... don't give out platemail at low levels. Normally the best armor you can start with is chainmail (AC 16) and the others are extremely expensive for low-level PCs. Platemail is 1,500 gold and players shouldn't get that until 3rd or 4th-level -- even with multiple party members chipping in. By then creatures at +5 to +8 on attacks, an AC of 21 isn't overpowering.

As for what to do now...

1. Take the platemail away. Have someone come looking for it, have it cursed, maybe it needs resizing, rust monster, etc. You may have to talk with your character.

2. Put in situations where they can't wear armor. Climbing, swimming, narrow passageways, social setting, etc. This can get old quickly on the PCs.

3. Have creatures ignore the PC. After the first round, they should realize that they can't hit him and move on to another PC.

4. Use more tricks, traps, puzzles, etc. until the players reach 3rd+ levels.

5. Go ahead and toss in a bigger monster, just make sure it focuses on the PC. Others will be fine if they are simply letting him tank. Say an ogre or a brown bear. The bear will be attacking the PC and missing... that's fine.

6. Put in spellcasters. Use saving throw spells or those which work well against armor... say someone with shocking grasp.

[FilthyLucre]

Firstly, sit down with the player and find out how the AC got to 21.
A fighter with the armor fighting style, plate armor, and a shield? Not exactly a head scratcher.

[Cespenar]

If that guy tanks three mooks with +4s to hit, there's a ~50% chance he'll get hit at least once. And that's just round 1.

It's really not that big of an issue. He's just your designated tank.

[JackPhoenix]

So, he's got great armor class. Good for him! What else can, and most importantly, can't he do? If faced with enemies he can't reach, he'd have to switch to a ranged weapon (decreasing his AC by 2 for not using a shield) or be useless, while rest of the party will deal with them. Can he sneak? In that armor, not likely... guess who's not sneaking around the sleeping dragon that would be too dangerous to fight if he wakes up unless he takes the thing off? What about social situations? Sorry, mr. Fighter, but the duke is having a party, I don't care how urgent your message is, you're not getting in unless you dress apropriately. Enemies with shove? Now they have advantage to hit the heavy armored opponent. What if he's got to protect someone? He's armored, good, too bad the princess he's escorting isn't.... how do he protects her?

[Pex]

Hypothetical situation.

Fighter level 1

Chainmail: AC 16
Shield: AC 18
Fighting Style Defense: AC 19
Cleric casts Shield of Faith on Fighter: AC 21

AC 21 at 1st level while rare is not impossible even if you hadn't erred in giving platemail.

It's the character's shtick. Let him have it and don't worry about it. A standard Orc needs to roll 16+ to hit him. Hard but not impossible. He's not completely invulnerable but gets the fun of being almost. He's the hero going toe-to-toe. You can have fun with it as DM by roleplaying the monsters getting frustrated not being able to strike him down. It builds up his reputation. BBEGs are going to want to challenge him. The Orc War Chief is CR 4. When the party gains a few levels and is ready to face him, the Chief wants to face the PC himself. He still needs to roll at least a 15 while the fighter needs likely only 11 to hit him, 10 if he's level 4, and possibly a Bless from the cleric to help. It'll be tough because the Chief has a lot more hit points but the player will feel great should he win. Even if he goes down he put up one heck of a fight.

[JackPhoenix]

Hypothetical situation.

Fighter level 1

Chainmail: AC 16
Shield: AC 18
Fighting Style Defense: AC 19
Cleric casts Shield of Faith on Fighter: AC 21

AC 21 at 1st level while rare is not impossible even if you hadn't erred in giving platemail.

It's the character's shtick. Let him have it and don't worry about it. A standard Orc needs to roll 16+ to hit him. Hard but not impossible. He's not completely invulnerable but gets the fun of being almost. He's the hero going toe-to-toe. You can have fun with it as DM by roleplaying the monsters getting frustrated not being able to strike him down. It builds up his reputation. BBEGs are going to want to challenge him. The Orc War Chief is CR 4. When the party gains a few levels and is ready to face him, the Chief wants to face the PC himself. He still needs to roll at least a 15 while the fighter needs likely only 11 to hit him, 10 if he's level 4, and possibly a Bless from the cleric to help. It'll be tough because the Chief has a lot more hit points but the player will feel great should he win. Even if he goes down he put up one heck of a fight.

Sure, SoF will give the fighter with chainmail the same AC as the one with platemail... for 1 encounter out of 6-8. And the cleric can't then use that spell slot for healing, Bless or whatever other spell he might need. And his concentration may be broken... speaking of concentration, SoF means no Bless for the party. The plate armored fighter has that AC for a whole day without sacrificing limited (especially at level 1) resources.

[hymer]

So I'm very new to DMing and playing D&D in general. [...] their Armor Class somehow got boosted to 21.
My bold.


It's certainly possible, but you should know how the game works, and be sure both you and the player have it right.


A fighter with the armor fighting style, plate armor, and a shield? Not exactly a head scratcher.

That's indeed the obvious legal way. Since the DM is new, and indicates s/he doesn't really know how the AC got there, s/he should take the time to find out how (because s/he ought to know this), and be sure there's been no mistake (because new players sometimes add their dex to AC while wearing heavy armor by mistake or greed).

[djreynolds]

Just tell the player during traveling he must take some of the plate armor off (seems reasonable) and it can be downgraded to breast plate or he gets exhaustion.

And make having to use stealth a big deal and the disadvantage he gets "could" kill the party (stretch the truth)

So for some fights you will catch him in breastplate, like in underdark or in the woods or on the open road.

But some fights, him and the party will know the player needs to go full plate and it takes a short rest to make changes, upgrading to full plate or downgrading to breastplate

No need to take it away from him, its done. Do not send rust monsters out to get him

This fix will work, and you might keep it as an easy way for players in heavy armor to downgrade when needed just for exploration purposes

[Godshoe]

Oh, you know, once I had such an AC (even 22, warforged stuff mheh) on 1st lvl. And my character died in first turn of first fight.
Case gobbo get crit :/

[si1foo]

if he has 21 ac then he is full plate with shield and ac boosting fighting style

introduce him to hell for example there fighting goblins they will do very little to him so send even more against him if he is using armor to toughen him self to the point where he feels invulnerable then use the quantity over quality approach and just have the goblins surround him and bash him to death

[Arkhios]

Is high AC due to heavy armor a problem?

Your answer is simple, effective, and also a classic: Rust Monsters (CR 1/2, so you could have those at any level, with varying numbers; remember, even CR 1/2 monsters can be dangerous in great numbers!)

Rust Metal (Trait). Any non-magical weapon made of metal that hits the rust monster corrodes. After dealing damage, the weapon takes a permanent and cumulative -1 penalty to damage rolls. If its penalty drops to -5, the weapon is destroyed. Non-magical ammunition made of metal that hits the rust monster is destroyed after dealing damage.

Antennae (Action). The rust monster corrodes a non-magical ferrous metal object it can see within 5 feet of it. If the object isn't being worn or carried, the touch destroys a 1-foot cube of it. If the object is being worn or carried by a creature, the creature can make a DC 11 Dexterity saving throw (often the guys wearing heavy armor have really lousy dex saves!) to avoid the rust monster's touch.
If the object touched is either metal armor or a metal shield being worn or carried, its takes a permanent and cumulative -1 penalty to the AC it offers. Armor reduced to an AC of 10 or a shield that drops to a +0 bonus is destroyed. If the object touched is a held metal weapon, it rusts as described in the Rust Metal trait.

(PS. Yes, I re-posted, since I felt no one saw the post earlier, or otherwise didn't care).

[Hrugner]

Just level up the group. He's in a nice place with early plate armor and you can either take it away which will feel bad to the player, or move the party up a level so he should be expected to have it.

[Angelmaker]

Armour is wonderful. Armour is lovely. Armour can suck HARD.

Introduce your player to seafaring adventuring. If he doesn't want to drown... plate has to go away.

Afaik there is nothing in the rules making it harder to swim if wearing armor, is there? You only get disadvantage on stealth checks. So in theory a plated fighter is still better at swimming than a robed mage due to his better athletics. It's silly, but it's RAW.

[NNescio]

Afaik there is nothing in the rules making it harder to swim if wearing armor, is there? You only get disadvantage on stealth checks. So in theory a plated fighter is still better at swimming than a robed mage due to his better athletics. It's silly, but it's RAW.

Which it should be (and it's hardly silly). It's not impossible to swim in plate, after all (https://vimeo.com/13634653). I mean, sure, realistically the armor would encumber you, but so would free-drifting chain, waterlogged leather and robes, plus lugging a 59 lb explorer pack (+ whatever extra you put into it) all soaked in water. Heaven help you if you decided to strap a bed roll to it too.

Any DM who decide to penalize the heavy-armor fighter for this (because realism!) should similarly penalize the rest of the party.

Alternatively, just accept that the encumbering effects of full plate is abstracted by its speed penalty (which is negated by a Dwarf or by anyone with enough STR). Anyone who can wear plate armor without movement penalties should be able to swim without penalties (at least in combat in calm waters, treading water for extended periods may requires checks, but the same goes for other PCs encumbered with stuff).

[hymer]

I mean, sure, realistically the armor would encumber you, but so would free-drifting chain, waterlogged leather and robes, plus lugging a 59 lb explorer pack (+ whatever extra you put into it) all soaked in water. Heaven help you if you decided to strap a bed roll to it too.

It's not as simple as that. Whether something weighs you down is a matter of its density compared to the medium you're moving in. Iron is quite a bit denser than water (over seven times as dense), and steel plate will therefore not merely hinder your swimming, but also drag you down. The bedroll, on the other hand, will only hinder your movements, unless you like to sleep on some rather unusual materials. It may even buoy you up.

[Spellbreaker26]

Your answer is simple, effective, and also a classic: Rust Monsters (CR 1/2, so you could have those at any level, with varying numbers; remember, even CR 1/2 monsters can be dangerous in great numbers!)


Rust Monsters can only be considered a classic in the same way as death by stoning.

They're a massive douche ploy to pull on a new player, since it's difficult to figure out what they are. They exist purely to take away people's toys. They are the anti-fun monster.

[LordVonDerp]

Have enemy spellcasters target things other than AC?

[Arkhios]

Rust Monsters can only be considered a classic in the same way as death by stoning.

They're a massive douche ploy to pull on a new player, since it's difficult to figure out what they are. They exist purely to take away people's toys. They are the anti-fun monster.

They are classic in the sense of the game's origins. And they can be fun, with the right mentality.

[warmachine]

As others have written, this isn't really a problem. The real question is what the players think of this. If everyone is having fun, there is no problem. Consider the player types according to Robin D Laws (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/models/robinslaws.html). If the player with the AC 21 is a Butt-Kicker, he's happy. Another player who's a Storyteller won't be concerned. A Tactician would consider the Butt-Kicker a useful tool to win the battle. Another Butt-Kicker would be annoyed about being overshadowed.

Others here will classify players in other ways. Nonetheless, the real question is what do the players want out of the game. Answer that and we can tailor the solutions to your group, if solutions are even needed.

[Pex]

Is high AC due to heavy armor a problem?

Your answer is simple, effective, and also a classic: Rust Monsters (CR 1/2, so you could have those at any level, with varying numbers; remember, even CR 1/2 monsters can be dangerous in great numbers!)

Rust Metal (Trait). Any non-magical weapon made of metal that hits the rust monster corrodes. After dealing damage, the weapon takes a permanent and cumulative -1 penalty to damage rolls. If its penalty drops to -5, the weapon is destroyed. Non-magical ammunition made of metal that hits the rust monster is destroyed after dealing damage.

Antennae (Action). The rust monster corrodes a non-magical ferrous metal object it can see within 5 feet of it. If the object isn't being worn or carried, the touch destroys a 1-foot cube of it. If the object is being worn or carried by a creature, the creature can make a DC 11 Dexterity saving throw (often the guys wearing heavy armor have really lousy dex saves!) to avoid the rust monster's touch.
If the object touched is either metal armor or a metal shield being worn or carried, its takes a permanent and cumulative -1 penalty to the AC it offers. Armor reduced to an AC of 10 or a shield that drops to a +0 bonus is destroyed. If the object touched is a held metal weapon, it rusts as described in the Rust Metal trait.

(PS. Yes, I re-posted, since I felt no one saw the post earlier, or otherwise didn't care).

I saw, but I'd rather not have mentioned it but now I will. The DM should not punish the player for his own mistake with a passive aggressive action such as this. The better response would be just talk to the player out of game admitting to making a mistake giving him platemail so early. Retcon the character got something else, is wearing chainmail, and promise the player his character will be get platemail in the future at a more appropriate level.

[Shadroth]

It's not as simple as that. Whether something weighs you down is a matter of its density compared to the medium you're moving in. Iron is quite a bit denser than water (over seven times as dense), and steel plate will therefore not merely hinder your swimming, but also drag you down. The bedroll, on the other hand, will only hinder your movements, unless you like to sleep on some rather unusual materials. It may even buoy you up.

I'm not physically strong, but I can tread water while carrying extra weight. Its not a big stretch to imagine that a strong fighter type with the Athletics skill trained can tread water wearing/carrying just about anything.

Well crafted plate armour doesn't restrict your movements significantly and some types of padded cloth restrict your movements more. Sure, its heavy. But a bedroll, submerged in water, is not just the weight/bulk of the bedroll. It will also be heavy once the water has soaked into it.


General comments to the thread - why is it a bad thing for a PC to be good at something? Some players want to be the armoured fighter, some players want to be a mage. As long as they all feel useful and get chances to play to their strengths, with the threat that they need to work together to avoid or compensate for their weaknesses, where is the problem?


Having excess gold, equipment or whatever stolen from the party often feels like the DM being lazy. Rust monsters for an experienced group might not be insurmountable, but for a group that doesn't know they exist, they're really unfair.

[Arkhios]

I saw, but I'd rather not have mentioned it but now I will. The DM should not punish the player for his own mistake with a passive aggressive action such as this. The better response would be just talk to the player out of game admitting to making a mistake giving him platemail so early. Retcon the character got something else, is wearing chainmail, and promise the player his character will be get platemail in the future at a more appropriate level.

"Passive Aggressive"? Exaggerating much? I'd say that a Rust Monster provides a good in-game explanation as to why a player's Armor would suddenly change to less protective, instead of having to retcon anything.

[Crusher]

AC 21 is of no extra value to the player than any other piece of equipment that players will have at level 1. If you don't have a lazy DM. The are 13 defenses in 5e, not 7 (though I feel like I'm missing one lol), as some things require checks and not saves or requires an attack roll and not a save..



Armor Class
Strength Save
Strength Check
Dexterity Save
Dexterity Check
Constitution Save
Constitution Check (
Intelligence Save
Intelligence Check (illusions aren't a save all the time)
Wisdom Save
Wisdom Check
Charisma Save
Charisma Check



If you can't come up with a way to challenge a player with this many options, you are just being lazy.

If you have a DM that isn't lazy, as even new DMs who aren't lazy can learn and get better, then that platemail is not an issue in the slightest. It's worth is no more or less than any other piece of equipment or armor that a character will come across.

Now, I'm all for a player having 21 AC and pointed out a very simple way to use this to a DM's advantage to really make players drop a brick. There is also Strength Checks to prone the character giving advantage on attacks. There is also dex saves. There is the help action. There is all the other saves and checks and things you could do.

Platemail is only worth more if you look at the GP value, the actual use/real value is non-existent (unless you have a lazy DM).

Are you serious, here? You're inventing strawman arguments to rebut that have nothing to do with what the poster said, and still have yet to actually even address the only point they made. Almost everything in this post is a non-sequitur to what the poster actually said in either post. The poster even pointed this out to you and you seem to have missed it.

[Klassik]

It's always been my luck when I create a character with high armor that I'm thrust into insane stealth checks, or water which I cant swim, or against druids with heat metal. Just my 3 cents that there are plenty of ways to work around asking a player to slim down on this characters armor selection.

[Leith]

I'm going to point this out because no one else has; give the other players cool toys too.
AC 21 isn't the end of the world but this sort of thing comes up occasionally. Where the DM gives a PC something slightly too potent not realizing the consequences.
The simplest solution is to beef up the challenge (people have given many ways to do that already on this thread). But if you worry about players feeling picked on or envious, just give them all a cool toy that has a comparable effect on the metagame.

[ad_hoc]

Have the monsters stop attacking that character. Attack the rest of the party instead. AC 21 won't help much if you never get attacked.

[hymer]

I'm not physically strong, but I can tread water while carrying extra weight. Its not a big stretch to imagine that a strong fighter type with the Athletics skill trained can tread water wearing/carrying just about anything.

My comment was regarding NNescio's understanding of what heavy means once you're in the water. More on that below.


Well crafted plate armour doesn't restrict your movements significantly and some types of padded cloth restrict your movements more.

As Sir Humphrey once said: "Almost anything can be attacked as a loss of amenity, and almost anything can be defended as not a significant loss of amenity, which seems to signify that one should appreciate the significance of significant."
I don't think there's a way forward for this argument from here. I think my crawl would suffer quite significantly if I wore plate mail. You don't.
Okay.


Sure, its heavy. But a bedroll, submerged in water, is not just the weight/bulk of the bedroll. It will also be heavy once the water has soaked into it.

A bedroll submerged in water does not weigh down a swimmer. At all. Throw a bedroll in water and it floats. Even when thoroughly soaked it would just hang there in the water, unless it's got an awful lot of metal buttons or a big zipper to weigh it down. It's bulky, certainly, I never said otherwise. But its weight is pretty much meaningless once it is in the water, because water weighs the same as a soaked bedroll.
Comparing a bedroll to pieces of iron is what I'm protesting, because iron will weigh you down (whether or not it succeeds in overpowering your swimming) even in water because its density is several times higher.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just tell the player during traveling he must take some of the plate armor off (seems reasonable) and it can be downgraded to breast plate or he gets exhaustion. Why nerf a martial player? Don't they get enough stick as it is? High strength lets the strong ones carry more ... it's part of the fighter schticl.
And make having to use stealth a big deal and the disadvantage he gets "could" kill the party (stretch the truth) Then he's got to choose: breast plate, for quiet, or plate for tank. Put the Decision in the player's hands.

[Pex]

"Passive Aggressive"? Exaggerating much? I'd say that a Rust Monster provides a good in-game explanation as to why a player's Armor would suddenly change to less protective, instead of having to retcon anything.

When you give your players a toy, mistake or not, you don't just take it away from them immediately after. Work with it in the game or admit you erred and fix it with the player out of game.

[LudicSavant]

So I'm very new to DMing and playing D&D in general. I've been rather flexible with my players by giving them good equipment and botching rolls if an overly-powerful enemy is about to kill them. At some point, I let one of my players get a hold of plate armor while they were still level 1, and their Armor Class somehow got boosted to 21. Now they've kind of taken over the group by being practically invincible, and I find it hard to make encounters where that player doesn't just take over the whole situation. What kind of enemies should I use so that it threatens the high AC character without hurting the other players and making them feel like a major part of the party?

1) Utilize offensive tactics that don't care about AC. You can have an AC of 30, it won't matter if you're making saves or wandering blindly through a fog cloud or getting grappled off a cliff or getting pelted by magic missiles or whatever.

A high AC is useful, but only defends against certain kinds of attacks.

2) Use enemies with accurate attacks. The chance for mere generic orc to hit AC 21 is 25%... by no means negligible. And with advantage (which there are all kinds of ways to get), it's 43.75%

AC 21 is good, but by no means an unassailable fortress even against the kinds of attacks it actually defends against.

3) If your PCs have good equipment and magic items, factor that into their effective level when deciding the kinds of enemies that it is appropriate to send against them. You can treat them as a higher level than their actual level.

[LordVonDerp]

2. Put in situations where they can't wear armor. Climbing, swimming, narrow passageways, social setting, etc. This can get old quickly on the PCs.


Wearing armor does not affect any of those.

[Spellbreaker26]

They are classic in the sense of the game's origins. And they can be fun, with the right mentality.

Just because they're from 1e doesn't necessarily give them redeeming qualities - there's a lot of stuff from 1e that's been rightly abandoned. And Rust Monsters can potentially be decent for veteran players, but just dumping them in to take something away from a player is dodgy DMing, IMO.


"Passive Aggressive"? Exaggerating much? I'd say that a Rust Monster provides a good in-game explanation as to why a player's Armor would suddenly change to less protective, instead of having to retcon anything.

First of all, what if the player spots this threat? Either you don't let them know it's a rust monster (so it's just a bug that comes up and suddenly their weapons start decaying) or you show them by saying "the monster eats up the metal in its path" or suchlike.

If you do the first that's being a douche, since you're just damaging all their weapons without giving them any way to anticipate that.

If you do the second that's fairer, but then you're stuck with a problem.

What if the guy with 21 AC acts really smart, and somehow anticipates the rust monsters, and they kill them from range? What then? Are you just going to send in more until they fail to kill them and his armour is eaten away? What if the player starts to feel victimized because he feels that the DM is targeting him just to take away one of his most prized possessions? He would be right to feel that way because that would be exactly what was happening. The other players might pick up on this as well and view any triumph with trepidation, knowing that any reward they get might be arbitrarily snatched away.

[Beelzebubba]

Yeah, time will solve this problem soon enough.

Lots of good responses, so nothing to add except taking it back in an obvious way will cause WAAAAAAY more problems with your player than the armor does with your encounters.

[Unoriginal]

The are 13 defenses in 5e, not 7 (though I feel like I'm missing one lol), as some things require checks and not saves or requires an attack roll and not a save..



Armor Class
Strength Save
Strength Check
Dexterity Save
Dexterity Check
Constitution Save
Constitution Check (
Intelligence Save
Intelligence Check (illusions aren't a save all the time)
Wisdom Save
Wisdom Check
Charisma Save
Charisma Check




Yes, and an item that give an high score to any of those is very useful.



If you can't come up with a way to challenge a player with this many options, you are just being lazy.

Who said anything about not being to challenge the player? Giving a player a good item doesn't mean that you're not able to challenge them or that you're lazy.


If you have a DM that isn't lazy, as even new DMs who aren't lazy can learn and get better, then that platemail is not an issue in the slightest.

Never said it was an issue. Aside maybe for the sharing of treasure when there is a plate armor in the pile.


It's worth is no more or less than any other piece of equipment or armor that a character will come across.


Platemail is only worth more if you look at the GP value


...yes, I was talking about the monetary value. Because items have a price, and PCs often prefer share treasure in roughly the equal parts.



the actual use/real value is non-existent (unless you have a lazy DM).

So you're saying that a Fighter who get a plate armor should sell it for the coins, buy something better, and forget about the valueless and useless item. Unless the DM is lazy.

[Unoriginal]

Note that you can relatively easily get plate armor by level 3, according to the game.

There is the stateblock for a CR3 Hobgoblin in plate armor. Might be situational, but a group should be able to defeat the Hobgoblin and loot the armor.

[Coidzor]

Have the monsters stop attacking that character. Attack the rest of the party instead. AC 21 won't help much if you never get attacked.

Also passive aggressive and not good DMing.

Some monsters should certainly prefer to go after obvious spellcasters or targets that look like they'd be easier to hit, but never all of them.


Wearing armor does not affect any of those.

Yeah, the only one that really might would be a social setting where they have to basically strip naked and leave behind most of their weapons and armor and dress up in fancy clothing.

But if you poison the well on that sort of thing by having the very first time be an attempt to kill them with combat, you're squandering a potentially interesting avenue.

[LudicSavant]

The issue with rust monsters is that PCs can absolutely tell the difference between a case of a DM that populates their world with things like thieves and rust monsters all the time, and the case of a DM who usually just uses typical combat as sport (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?317715-Very-Long-Combat-as-Sport-vs-Combat-as-War-a-Key-Difference-in-D-amp-D-Play-Styles) monsters making regular attacks all the time who just sent a rust monster to achieve the specific goal of removing a toy.

[Vogonjeltz]

So I'm very new to DMing and playing D&D in general. I've been rather flexible with my players by giving them good equipment and botching rolls if an overly-powerful enemy is about to kill them. At some point, I let one of my players get a hold of plate armor while they were still level 1, and their Armor Class somehow got boosted to 21. Now they've kind of taken over the group by being practically invincible, and I find it hard to make encounters where that player doesn't just take over the whole situation. What kind of enemies should I use so that it threatens the high AC character without hurting the other players and making them feel like a major part of the party?

So they have the defense fighting style and a shield? That's fairly normal. Most enemies have at least a +4 to hit, so they'd hit the plate armor character about 20% of the time without advantage...which is basically working as intended.

If you want to have a creature which is a credible threat to that character, as mentioned you might rely on saving throws, multiple attackers, or contests (grapple/shove/disarm being the most common ones).

One fun tactic could be a swarm (metaphorically speaking, not the swarm creatures in the MM) of enemies who all attempt to grapple and then shove the character to the ground, then engage in attacks with advantage on the prone character. Up to 8 creatures can typically surround a character in that way, so they're likely to succeed at at least one grapple/shove/disarm of a weapon even when the subject has a better athletics/acrobatics (as applicable) check.


Armour is wonderful. Armour is lovely. Armour can suck HARD.

Introduce them to creatures that damage armour.
Introduce them to creatures that have access to the spell Heat Metal. Your character will curse his plate and rely entirely on the rest of the party to save his butt.
Introduce your player to seafaring adventuring. If he doesn't want to drown... plate has to go away.


1) Rust monster is brutal assuming the characters don't recognize it for what it is and act accordingly.
2) Heat Metal is just as dangerous for any other type of armors besides hide and leather. Assuming this is a character who started with Chainmail, this changes nothing, they'd still be wearing a heavy armor made of metal either way.
3) Plate armor doesn't hamper movement (which includes swimming) at all, assuming proficiency and the Strength score required is met. This applies to all armor actually, not just plate.


As for what to do now...

1. Take the platemail away. Have someone come looking for it, have it cursed, maybe it needs resizing, rust monster, etc. You may have to talk with your character.

2. Put in situations where they can't wear armor. Climbing, swimming, narrow passageways, social setting, etc. This can get old quickly on the PCs.

3. Have creatures ignore the PC. After the first round, they should realize that they can't hit him and move on to another PC.

4. Use more tricks, traps, puzzles, etc. until the players reach 3rd+ levels.

5. Go ahead and toss in a bigger monster, just make sure it focuses on the PC. Others will be fine if they are simply letting him tank. Say an ogre or a brown bear. The bear will be attacking the PC and missing... that's fine.

6. Put in spellcasters. Use saving throw spells or those which work well against armor... say someone with shocking grasp.

Don't do #1, Trying to take the equipment (which is standard equipment, not even magical!) away is just going to piss off your player, engendering feelings of mistrust. You made a rookie mistake, just let it go and recognize that that character is going to be harder to hit for a few levels. It's not a big deal at all.

#2 is false. Armor doesn't hinder movement at all.

#3, #4, and #6 are good; but #5 likely will result in a TPK at some point if you don't adhere to the encounter creation guidelines.


Why nerf a martial player? Don't they get enough stick as it is? High strength lets the strong ones carry more ... it's part of the fighter schticl.

Besides being the stuff that nightmare DM posts are made of, this is literally punishing the player because of an error of judgment by the DM. Two wrongs don't make a right, they only compound the problem, foolishly at that.

[Sigreid]

Kobolds. Pack tactics mean the adorable little creeps will have effectively a 10% chance each of hurting. Goblins using ranged weapons and their bonus action disengage can drive him nuts. Basically you do what any fighting force does when faced with a seemingly un-defeat able foe, you resort to asymmetrical warfare.