My players have gotten stuck with high-risk low-reward encounters

[Gilda]

So, I DM an Earth-based fantasy kitchen sink using the 3.5 rules. When PCs started asking about the planes, I fed them information that the elemental planes are the Sun (fire), Mercury, Moon (rock), Jupiter, Saturn (air) and Venus (water... clearly a sci-fantasy Venus). This left a sci-fantasy Mars as another material plane like Earth, and the PCs eventually went there to recover a princess of Troy who'd been plane shifted there by the top henchman of Koschei the Deathless.
The humanoid Martians are disposed toward Lawful Good and for three years they've been fighting a war against mind flayers, who came on a ship from beyond the Solar system. They were actually headed for Earth to look for the lost god Cthulhu but were selflessly intercepted by Mars, the Lawful Good god of war and consciousness of the planet (as Gaia is the consciousness of ours).

Good news is, they're loving the story. Bad news is we've hit a mechanical trap where the PCs are Level 14 (Cleric, Bard, Barb & each controlling a Paladin, Wizard or Blink Dog w/ Rogue levels as their cohort). They've killed half a dozen mind flayers and have about 50-50 odds of Total Party Survival when they appear in groups of 4 (CR 12).
What that means is that each player gets 700 XP after an encounter where there's even odds that one party member will die, with the loss of XP from going down a level and a 5-10,000 gp drain on party wealth.

So mechanically, there's no reason for them to deal with the mind flayers, when they could go off and find low-risk/low-reward opponents or high-risk/high-reward ones. But in-character, they've accepted jobs as officers and NCOs in the Martians's resistance army, out of sympathy for the good people and the principle of "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here."
What are GM best practices for overcoming this mechanical problem?

[Rerednaw]

So, I DM an Earth-based fantasy kitchen sink using the 3.5 rules. ...
What that means is that each player gets 700 XP after an encounter where there's even odds that one party member will die, with the loss of XP from going down a level and a 5-10,000 gp drain on party wealth.

So mechanically, there's no reason for them to deal with the mind flayers, when they could go off and find low-risk/low-reward opponents or high-risk/high-reward ones. But in-character, they've accepted jobs as officers and NCOs in the Martians's resistance army, out of sympathy for the good people and the principle of "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here."
What are GM best practices for overcoming this mechanical problem?

Simple version? They are heroes. Sometimes the payoff isn't gold or xp. It's the job well done and you've saved the day, town country, world, etc.

Mechanically? Rule 0 it. Because they are acting on the planetary consciousness' behalf for x times/only (or maybe on a % chance because we don't want to make death trivial) when a character is brought back to life, the deity augments the raise so they don't suffer the level loss and/or reduces or negates the material cost. In addition fighting these threats means they are going to have treasure. Unless you are throwing threats without treasure.

In addition with 3.5 core rules if this is a core 14th level party they ALREADY have infinite wealth loops at their disposal. Kudos to them for not using them. Maybe ease up a bit and allow a few just to offset some of the 'expenses'.

In the game I am playing my wizard had a total net worth at 5th level of 300 gp. After he finally came into wealth there was no time to craft nor anywhere to buy. He died essentially a pauper by adventuring nay even npc gear standards. That didn't stop him from being a hero and trying to save the world.

[Jack_Simth]

Simple method when the party is behind on the wealth curve? Treasure drops.

Illithids are intelligent. They'll be fighting the Martians, and the Martians should have a relatively standard spread of classes & equipment. So even if the Illithids themselves don't have treasure that'd be useful to the party (and if nothing else, they will like basic boosters), the dead bodies they're leaving in their wake will, and it's very likely that the illithids will be snatching that up for whatever various reasons (research, to use them themselves, harvesting XP for their artificers [assuming that they have them] or whatever). Likewise, even if the Illithids aren't gathering the goods from the slain, they'll have their own equipment, and a lot of people will want to study that - which means it's saleable. Ignoring that, a lot of tech is made out of somewhat valuable minerals. A modern desktop computer, for instance, has a fair amount of copper, tin, iron, and a even a (very small) touch of gold. There is liable to be a market. Just one merchant saying something along the lines of "Hey... the next time you down one of those no-good invaders, do you mind picking up one of those [X]'s that they all seem to carry? I'd make it worth your while..." should get them thinking along those lines. And of course, if the market is people investigating what those blasted things are, then it's going to be a highly variable market. Once the item is fully understood, it loses much of it's value.

[Dagroth]

If you want treasure and tougher encounters... throw a couple of levels (and gear) on one of the illithids. Make him a "Sargent" or the equivalent.

Have the PCs find a camouflaged building with a few Golem guards and a couple of Mindflayers with the Craft Psionic Item Feat. There's a few Dorjes (Psionic Wand equivalents), maybe a Psicrown... You could even throw in some items that the Mindflayer researchers were trying to figure out, but lacked the ability to use... like a Nightstick. Or some items that they hadn't gotten around to identifying yet. ("It's a Cloak, sir." "Well obviously it's a cloak! What does it do?" "We don't know sir..." "Well figure it out!")

The PCs can significantly affect the war by taking out this supply depot... and get some cool stuff!

[Calthropstu]

In their adventures they discover a hidden cache with a rod of true ressurection with 15 charges.
Problem solved.

[the_david]

A group of 3 level 14 characters and 3 cohorts has trouble defeating a CR12 encounter? That's kinda a big problem. Is there anything in particular that they seem to have problems with? (Will saves maybe?) If so, you should fix that first.

Now if you're throwing 4 mindflayers at you party, and they're all exploiting that one weakness your party has I can kinda understand why they're having problems. Instead you should throw one mindflayer at them with a bunch of meatshields. It's how mindflayers tend to operate, and it opens up more diverse tactics, while spreading out the risk of all your players being charmed or stunned or something.

[jmax]

A group of 3 level 14 characters and 3 cohorts has trouble defeating a CR12 encounter? That's kinda a big problem. Is there anything in particular that they seem to have problems with? (Will saves maybe?) If so, you should fix that first.

Now if you're throwing 4 mindflayers at you party, and they're all exploiting that one weakness your party has I can kinda understand why they're having problems. Instead you should throw one mindflayer at them with a bunch of meatshields. It's how mindflayers tend to operate, and it opens up more diverse tactics, while spreading out the risk of all your players being charmed or stunned or something.

This, but also I can't help but wonder why they're having so much trouble with mind flayers. Almost everything they do can be negated by a Will save. The cleric should be almost untouchable for them. None of the save DCs is higher than 17. A 13th-level cleric should have 8+Wis bonus (presumably at least +4 but more likely +6 or higher at this level) plus buffs and items. He shouldn't be failing those saves on anything but a Natural 1. The rest of the party I could definitely see having trouble with those Will saves, but there are ways of dealing with that as well.

The mind flayer only has two attack options that are reasonably likely to seriously impede a combatant: Mind Blast and suggestion. Granted, they both take a combatant out of the fight, but they're both negated by Will saves and the DCs are quite low for the upper end of mid-level play. The bard's Inspire Courage grants bonuses against compulsions, so that'll shore up against suggestion, but the real problem is Mind Blast. You have two great options for fighting it though - boost Will saves or protect against stunning.

The cleric has all kinds of ways to boost saves. The most direct is superior resistance if you allow Spell Compendium (Cleric 6, 24 hours, +6 resistance bonus to saves). If you don't allow Spell Compendium, you can have the cleric's deity grant just that one spell as a divine gift rewarding the PCs' virtue. A 13th-level cleric gets, at a minimum, 2 6th-level spells and 1 7th-level, so getting at least 3 castings per day is guaranteed. That's not enough for the cohorts, but it'd cover the PCs. If that's not enough, there are other spell options that stack with it.

Then layer on top of that a Third Eye Clarity from Magic Item Compendium (link to post suggesting it in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12514784&postcount=9)) to negate stunning 1/day as an immediate action - which you can absolutely use after failing your saving throw (the text suggests it). There are any number of ways to stick this in the game, but the easiest is probably having it be found on the corpse of a mind flayer that took it from someone else. It doesn't have to be the PCs finding it unless there's nobody else capable of fighting the things.

It's a pity the paladin cohort isn't 14th-level and therefore doesn't have 4th-level spells, but a scroll of favor of the martyr (also Spell Compendium) would make him immune to stunning (and a bunch of other things) and compulsion effects for 6 rounds. Once he's immune to everything the mind flayers have, he should be able to take them by himself.

Freedom of movement automatically prevents brain extraction because it grants functional immunity to grappling. The cleric can cast it a minimum of 4 times per day without resorting to putting it in higher level spell slots. Probably 5 given that he almost certainly has at least one bonus 4th-level spell slot.

The only other thing you need is flight to counter the levitation. The wizard cohort can cast fly.

Mind flayers are not beefy. Once you negate their neuromancy, the party should be able to cut them down like a hot knife through jello.

And of course, bringing it back to the_david's point, shuffling up the encounters is something you can control entirely without having to rely on player strategy.

EDIT: P.S. Your game sounds awesome! Great setting and flavor.

[Aetis]

If it's high risk, why not just give higher xp?

Problem solved.

[Incorrect]

If it's high risk, why not just give higher xp?
Problem solved.

In many computer games, once an enemy is easily defeated it is replaced by a stronger version (often color coded for your convenience). The flayers now has a bit more health, but offers a larger XP reward.

You could also move the story along by describing a Montage where they defeat the enemy in a series of close battles, but not actually role the dice.

[Bronk]

It sounds to me like you're in a game sweet spot where everyone's having fun, you don't have to continually ramp things up, and you can focus on story and plot more easily.

If you think things start to stagnate, I'll second the idea of upping the CR of encounters based on difficulty and tossing in new magic items.

I'll also throw in a reminder that you can/should grant story awards for finishing plot related events.

Oh, plus you can pad encounters out with the illithid's thralls. They can be evil for a straight fight, or good for a 'rescue mission ' feel.

[Firechanter]

I agree with many of the other posters here -- it sounds like your party is undergeared, i.e. either below WBL or their gear is useless. So the solution is simple, give them appropriate equipment. The Resistance is bound to have suitable items in their arsenal.

[Mr Adventurer]

Need more info on the structures of your encounters and the characters days. Is this a massed battle scenario(s)? Are you following the Heroes of Battle guidelines?

[Gilda]

Let me take these in reverse order:

Encounter structure is that they have a couple encounters/day in open terrain, the 6 PCs, a redeemed villain & a random Martian soldier being employed as the scout platoon of an infantry company. They have yet to participate in a massed battle, only the skirmishes scouts would get into.
I'm totally unfamiliar with Heroes of Battle.
In-universe background is that the war has lasted 3 years and the mind flayers initially operated in the open, then the Martians (who are predominantly Paladin 1/Sorc 1) learned how to ambush them with True Strike and they hunkered down in their city, sending soldiers out with vehicles (iron golems and variants on that stat block). Now these Level 14 & 12 superheroes have appeared and are destroying their patrols. Now they're resorting to having their thralls dig tunnels from the city to all the villages where they collect their "sacrifices" (the thralls/collaborators see them as demigods whose divine ancestry is Cthulhu... they're not that wrong). Fantasy Vietnam, man!

They may be under WBL, but if so, it's their own fault for not thinking about economics. In a free Martian city, you can buy diamond solitaires for half a pound of gold that back home would be worth the 5,000 gp needed for Raise Dead and get you sacred hospitality from the monarch you sell it to in the bargain. Their gear not being optimized could be an issue, though.

"I'll also throw in a reminder that you can/should grant story awards for finishing plot related events."

Yeah, those happen. I should talk to them about what THEY consider the plot goals on Mars, as this is a sandbox campaign. And the mind flayers will be using their thralls as cannon fodder... and they're not really evil, though by RAW accepting that these things are demigods may count as worshiping evil gods and being LE.

"If it's high risk, why not just give higher xp? Problem solved."

I've considered that option, but wanted to solicit advice on whether it was DM best practices. Their position is that any encounter where one character dies would be a loss even CR20, because their XP share after the victory doesn't make up for the level lost... and in the past couple weeks they've had one fatality in a CR12 Girallon encounter and another in a CR12 flayer encounter.

The Cleric is in fact immune to Mind Blast on any roll but 1. He also makes the party immune to Suggestion with Magic Circle Against Evil and between him, the Wizard and gear, everyone flies.. His player still considers mind flayers risky.
Freedom of Movement is one thing they haven't thought of yet. Should I tell them OOC?

"P.S. Your game sounds awesome! Great setting and flavor."

Thanks! :)

"Now if you're throwing 4 mindflayers at you party, and they're all exploiting that one weakness your party has I can kinda understand why they're having problems. Instead you should throw one mindflayer at them with a bunch of meatshields. It's how mindflayers tend to operate, and it opens up more diverse tactics, while spreading out the risk of all your players being charmed or stunned or something."

Well, will saves aren't actually a huge weakness. The Cleric makes his on a 2, as I said, and some of the others are getting close. What they seem to dislike is having to roll a bunch of will saves, and then the psionic flayers using other powers like Dimension Door to survive.

"In their adventures they discover a hidden cache with a rod of true ressurection with 15 charges."

Ehhh... I strongly dislike rods of divine miracles.

[Dagroth]

Remember if a monster flees an encounter, the players have still "defeated" it.

Remind the players that if they get ambushed by a powerful force of Mind Flayers & Thralls and they fly away... the Mind Flayers are going to be upset about that. :D

[Firechanter]

"If it's high risk, why not just give higher xp? Problem solved."

I've considered that option, but wanted to solicit advice on whether it was DM best practices.

Personally, I think it's not a good practice at all. Basically, when your party is having trouble with an EL that should not be a problem, that's the system's way of telling you "Something is wrong". kinda like the Check Engine light in your car. In my experience, Undergearing (too little useful equipment) is the most common source of the problem. Another reason for I've seen is when DMs overoptimize their encounters, or the players are gimping their characters too much - or even both simultaneously.
Either way, handing out XP as if the encounter had been higher level does not in any way solve the problem the system is trying to tell you about. In fact, this practice is the equivalent of sticking black tape over your Check Engine light so you don't have to see it anymore. It may keep running for a while, but you're provoking a breakdown that will be much more serious and more difficult to fix than if you had taken proper action when the warning light came on.

So by all means, fix the engine before it blows to pieces.

Your reaction to the WBL diagnose seems to be "it's their own fault". Well that may be so, but it won't solve your problem. So get over it already. If the players have squandered their wealth on ale and whores instead of buying useful equipment, sit them down and talk to them about the importance of WBL. Fix their immediate gear issues (i.e. bring them up to par again), but feel free to make clear this will be the only free handout they're gonna get.
However, if you have dealt out way too little to begin with, don't try to put the blame on your players for "not getting creative enough". Most DMs react absolutely allergic when players attempt to pull off infinite-wealth loops or similar shenanigans. How are your players supposed to know that you _expect_ a behaviour that would get them banned from other tables?
May I direct your attention to the 3.5 DMG, page 54?

"Your job is to compare the wealth gained from the encounters in your adventure with the expected wealth gain shown on the table above. If your adventure has more treasure, reduce it. If your adventure has less treasure, plant enough treasure not related to encounters to match the value (see Other Treasure, below)."
(Emphasis mine.)


Their position is that any encounter where one character dies would be a loss even CR20, because their XP share after the victory doesn't make up for the level lost... and in the past couple weeks they've had one fatality in a CR12 Girallon encounter and another in a CR12 flayer encounter.

Well, you could hoist your D&D game out of the roleplaying stone age and take a clue from any more recent edition, be it Pathfinder or 5E, which all have done away with level loss on revolving-door afterlife, and also significantly reduced the financial penalty.
This won't solve your general Check Engine light problem, mind you, but it's a step towards making the game more relaxed, and the players more willing to take risks. Believe me, the sheer humiliation of dying is enough of a punishment for players to want to avoid it.

[Gilda]

Remember if a monster flees an encounter, the players have still "defeated" it.

Remind the players that if they get ambushed by a powerful force of Mind Flayers & Thralls and they fly away... the Mind Flayers are going to be upset about that. :D

They have? Since they could ambush those same mind flayers over and over again without "defeating" their ability to live and eat Martian brains, it seems like an easy way to farm XP. I was already concerned about letting them defeat a lich (the lich Koschei's main henchman, foil to the party Cleric) three times, and likely more in the future, for full XP (they're making no attempt to destroy his phylactery).

[Dagroth]

They have? Since they could ambush those same mind flayers over and over again without "defeating" their ability to live and eat Martian brains, it seems like an easy way to farm XP. I was already concerned about letting them defeat a lich (the lich Koschei's main henchman, foil to the party Cleric) three times, and likely more in the future, for full XP (they're making no attempt to destroy his phylactery).

Just have the villains who get away start learning the player's tactics. The enemy Lich might get one of the spells that negate Flight, or start summoning some nasty monsters (summoned monsters give no XP). Besides, given the amount of down-time between a Lich being "destroyed" and his body reforming, that's a noticeable defeat. Especially if the Mind Flayers were counting on him for something.

[Firechanter]

Note that again according to the DMG, p.36, it is the DM's call whether a not-killed enemy is worth XP or not. The example given is pretty clear: if a vault is guarded by a minotaur, and the players somehow manage to bypass that monster and loot the vault, the minotaur probably counts as "overcome". Particularly because the players have no reason to encounter it again.

Conversely, if they have a Lich practically locked up in their basement to destroy it whenever they feel like it, that certainly should not be worth any XP beyond the first time.

[Gilda]

So by all means, fix the engine before it blows to pieces.

Yeah, that seems like the right idea, not upping the XP reward from "under CR" to "boss CR" whenever they have a fatality.
For reasons of setting coherence, I've never thrown more than 2 encounters/day at them unless they choose to enter a dungeon (where the encounters will range from "6" to "more than enough to make you run away when resources get low and fight another day". That's basically given overland encounters 2 settings: easy and "we lost one guy."

However, if you have dealt out way too little to begin with, don't try to put the blame on your players for "not getting creative enough". Most DMs react absolutely allergic when players attempt to pull off infinite-wealth loops or similar shenanigans. How are your players supposed to know that you _expect_ a behaviour that would get them banned from other tables?

Well I've been hinting to them about economics since Level 1, but I see your point. In any case, I'm not sure I've dealt out too little loot at this point. I don't have everyone's character sheets in hand, but I know the Bard has a Sword of Subtlety, +3 keen rapier, spare magic rapier that hasn't been sold yet, +1 bow, +3 chain shirt, Ring of Protection, Cloak of Charisma, Mask of Languages, ornaments of Cat's Grace and Circlet of Persuasion. The Cleric has at least a +4 mace that's also Bane of Chaos, Defending Sword, Periapt of Owl's Wisdom, Monk's Belt, Ring of Protection and Cloak of Resistance. The Barbarian has a +3 greatsword that's also keen and flaming burst, +3 bow, +3 chain shirt, Hermes sandals, helmet of Bull's Strength, Ring of Protection and Cloak of Resistance.

Well, you could hoist your D&D game out of the roleplaying stone age and take a clue from any more recent edition, be it Pathfinder or 5E, which all have done away with level loss on revolving-door afterlife, and also significantly reduced the financial penalty.

Yeah, that's something to discuss with them. Though the financial penalty part I have a plan to address myself.

[Aetis]

WotC are notoriously incompetent at coming up with correct CRs. Treat them as very loose guidelines at best and randomly made-up numbers at worst.

Same thing for XP. Just level the PCs up when it's appropriate, and don't be afraid to give them ten or twenty times what the xp table says, or bonus xp for dead characters so that they don't fall behind xp too much.

Or better yet, stop using the experience points system.

[Firechanter]

Well, the PCs seem to be pretty well set up in the weapons and armour department; actually they may well exceed their WBL, the problem however is probably that that doesn't help a lot when you're up against Mind Flayers who can stun you, crack open your skull and suck out your brain. Even if their Will saves are good enough 75% of the time, a 25% failure rate is unsustainable if the consequences can be that drastic.

Protection from Evil helps a lot against many of their Psi powers, but it fails against Stunning. So the PCs need some Stun negation. The best way to achieve this is to pool cash for a Banner of the Storm's Eye -- pay 15K once, make the entire party Stun-immune (as long as they stay within 20ft, which should not be a problem). It doesn't get more awesome than that.

Also, as mentioned before, Freedom of Movement is excellent. And at level 14, a Ring should be affordable at least for the main characters. But even if a Cohort casts Extended FoM spells they will be good for 4 hours a pop. But really, if your PCs can't be Stunned anymore, those Mind Flayers immediately turn from "deadly threat" to "calamares".

[Bronk]

The players might want to start using 'dimensional anchor' on enemies they can't take out right away, and eventually 'dimensional lock'.

Or, maybe have an NPC do it first. Actually, that might be necessary to get them to do anything new, since they don't seem to be the types to look into things on their own.

[Bohandas]

Simple version? They are heroes. Sometimes the payoff isn't gold or xp.

Though it could be roleplaying xp

[Yahzi]

In their adventures they discover a hidden cache with a rod of true ressurection with 15 charges.
Problem solved.
This is the solution most in keeping with the essence of D&D. Well done! :smallsmile:

[lord_khaine]

If groups of 4 Illithids are to big of a mouthful for your group, then i second just switching up the encounter composition.

Illithids really treasure their filthy rubbery hide, so when the PC starts to assult their patrols they begin sending larger number of fleshcrafted aberations (reskin something nice and brawly like a troll with class levels), lead by a single Illithid out instead.

I mean, it seems like your party is rather brawly, so they can most likely deal a little better with something that just tries to claw their face off, and has a lot of HP.


Well, you could hoist your D&D game out of the roleplaying stone age and take a clue from any more recent edition, be it Pathfinder or 5E, which all have done away with level loss on revolving-door afterlife, and also significantly reduced the financial penalty.


This i disagree with though, just because Pathfinder has started doing it does not mean its a good idea. The death penalty is honestly minor compared to what it is in a lot of other games, and it does help bring a little tension to the battles when there is at least something minor on the line for dying.

[Firechanter]

What we did in our last 3.5 game, for instance, was introduce a few "buffer levels" that would allow you to be Raised without level loss a couple of times -- I think it was once per three levels or so.