Anybody know how to reverse brainwashing? (Guaranteed to be a long post)

[Klorox]

(Yes, I know I had a similar thread a few months back, but the issue itself has now been isolated and I'd like to get help here)

Here's the deal:

I'm pretty much a normal guy. I'm 41, heterosexual, getting divorced (I was separated for 3 years before beginning the divorce process), one child. I've seen therapists for issues over the years, but I have no mental illnesses.

I have met an amazing woman. We live together now, and plan on getting married one day. Neither of us has felt this way about another person before, nor have we ever felt so comfortable. Things are amazing with this woman, and our relationship is better than I ever knew a relationship could ever be.

Now, on to my issue (which I didn't even realize I had until recently, so bear with me and my long-winded story). My girlfriend works part time at a bar. This isn't your typical Cheers bar or one you see in most towns, it's a show bar. They only open on nights where they have events planned, and they have a wide range of shows at this place. They have open mic nights, they have karaoke nights, they have bands come in, they have belly dancer shows, they have burlesque shows, and I might even be missing some things.

She usually works nights with bands, open mic nights, and belly dancing nights. She works wherever she's needed, either as a bartender or waitress.

Anyway, I've visited her on these regular nights many times. I've made friends and enjoyed the shows. But, not too long ago, she was scheduled to work and suggested I see this band that was playing. She said I'd really enjoy the show.

The bad was great, I had a great time. But, in between sets, they had a burlesque dancer come out. I found myself extremely uncomfortable seeing this scantily clad woman dancing suggestively. I felt like I was betraying my girlfriend if I looked, and I actually found myself getting angry and disgusted at this dancer.

In between the next set, when I knew this dancer was going to return, I excused myself and waited in my car so I wouldn't have to see her.

I struggled with this issue for a while, and my girlfriend is very understanding, but she couldn't understand why I got so upset - and I couldn't either. At one point, she even suggested we go to a strip club to get over it and I found myself getting furious again. Not at my girlfriend, but just at the idea of seeing these naked girls.

At another show, a belly dancing show, I got *really* uncomfortable seeing pretty girls in very little clothing, despite reassurances from my girlfriend that it's ok to look at other girls, as long as I'm not touching them.

I knew it didn't make sense to me, as I enjoy the female form and I enjoy sex.

I got to becoming my own therapist for a while there, and realized that I used to like to visit strip clubs occasionally, and although I'd never seen a burlesque show before meeting my current girlfriend, I probably would have enjoyed that too. Early this past summer, before my girlfriend and I had met, I went to a couple of bachelor parties and had fun at strip clubs. There was never any feelings of anger or anything.

But, then I thought about when I was still with my soon-to-be ex-wife. After we had met, many years ago, I never went to any strip clubs. I can't remember any friends ever going to one during a bachelor party, but I do remember her absolutely flipping out and almost calling off the wedding after I told her that my best man organized strippers to show up during part of my bachelor party.

My self-therapy sessions (which sometimes included input from my girlfriend) have pretty much come to the conclusion that my ex-wife's behavior towards strippers pretty much has conditioned me to these feelings of discomfort and anger when I'm exposed to seeing a naked (or near naked) woman in a woman that I care abouts presence.

I have two options from here on out:

1) I can just avoid the issue, and not visit my girlfriend at work if there's going to be any burlesque dancers. I could excuse myself from going to a strip club if another friend is having a bachelor party that will end up going there.

Or

2) I can figure out how to get over this issue.

I have opted for #2. I want to enjoy my life, and I don't want to feel anger or guilt if I go to a show and see naked or near-naked women.

My problem is I'm really not sure how to do this. Even though I logically figured out months ago the cause of my feelings, this knowledge is overwhelmed by irrational feelings when I'm faced with this situation.

I'm open to any and all advice on this matter. Thank you.

Tl;dr

I feel like I've been conditioned, basically brainwashed by my soon-to-be ex-wife over the issue of seeing naked women. How do I reverse this so I can enjoy going out and enjoying myself if being exposed to scantily clad women?

[S@tanicoaldo]

That's why people should never do self-therapy. They are unable to see the big picture and then let their emotions take control of their conclusions.

Your feelings for your ex-wife are making you blame her for a problem she clearly has nothing to do with, she didn't brainwash you, that's silly. You are just having problem regarding your own sexual insecurities and self-doubting thoughts about your new girlfriend work environment being too sexual for your subconscious.

This (as usually when dealing with emotions) has to do with you! NOT your ex.

[Klorox]

That's why people should never do self-therapy. They are unable to see the big picture and then let their emotions take control of their conclusions.

Your feelings for your ex-wife are making you blame her for a problem she clearly has nothing to do with, she didn't brainwash you, that's silly. You are just having problem regarding your own sexual insecurities and self-doubting thoughts about your new girlfriend work environment being too sexual for your subconscious.

This (as usually when dealing with emotions) has to do with you! NOT your ex.

This is why I've asked the question in a forum like this. I will get honest answers from unbiased sources.

But, I will challenge your statement:

I do think there is some truth to insecurities in my girlfriends work environment. That being said, I totally trust her. We both know what we have, and how good we are for each other. I do think there are guys that look at her, probably hit on her, ect., but I totally believe she would put these guys in their place and that she's true to me.

But why would scantily clad women bother me so much, and *only* when I'm in a relationship if not for my ex wife's behavior? Perhaps I didn't go into enough detail in my original post, but my ex wife not only almost called off the wedding over strippers being at my bachelor party, but it's an event she held over my head for our entire marriage.

[veti]

Everyone has hangups. Everyone.

Some come from our parents (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/48419). Some come from traumatic experiences. Some come from people we are, or were, close to. But none of this is "brainwashing", it's just life.

Presumably, when the episode in question happened, you loved your now-ex-wife. Consider:


Love is a process of internalising someone else's feelings, preferences, ideals and values into yourself.

When you love someone, in a sense, a part of you becomes that person. If your partner has a strong hangup/preference of some kind, and if you genuinely love them, you should come to share that hangup on your own behalf. If and when you later separate, you will take the impression she made on you with you. In time it may fade, but it doesn't have to.

If your new partner is strongly of the opposite opinion, then over time, one or the other of you will probably shift. It may be you, or it may be her. Either way is OK, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer (unless you have some strong ideological basis for your belief, but it doesn't sound as if you have). But that will take time, and that's OK.

Love is a process.

[Sajiri]

Regardless of your current relationship with your ex, I think it's a bit unfair to say she brainwashed you. She had every right to be upset and not want her partner around strippers or scantily clad women, and her feelings deserve to be respected. On the other hand, if your current gf is totally cool with it, then that's perfectly fine too. I agree with Veti about sharing hangups with your partner, and you were married to the woman so it makes sense that you still feel strongly about it. It can be hard to change habits you've had for a while, if you feel this strongly then I dont think just going to a strip club with your girlfriend to get over it is the solution. It might work, I've never been in a strip club so I wouldn't know, but it could also just be a very awkward experience. I think in time, being with your current girlfriend, you will gradually become accustomed to it again.

I would say, just relax and dont force it. Have casual conversations with your gf, maybe have a more serious one about what your individual comforts are so you can know exactly what she is and isnt okay with so you dont potentially have it in the back of your mind that she will get angry if you are in a situation your ex wouldnt have liked you in.

[Donnadogsoth]

(Yes, I know I had a similar thread a few months back, but the issue itself has now been isolated and I'd like to get help here)

Here's the deal:

Has it ever occurred to you that your attitude towards sleaze is a normal, healthy reaction of pure-mindedness? That you want to preserve your affections and appreciations for your girlfriend rather than spend them on meaningless strangers?

Just a thought.

[Murk]

Has it ever occurred to you that your attitude towards sleaze is a normal, healthy reaction of pure-mindedness? That you want to preserve your affections and appreciations for your girlfriend rather than spend them on meaningless strangers?

Just a thought.

Normally, I would agree with this. There is of course nothing wrong with not wanting to see sleazy strippers. My own response too would be "yuck", and I'd rather wait in the car than in the club.
That doesn't seem like a problem, and I think if that was all, OP (or his partner) would not complain.

However, it seems to be more than that: OP wants to see the sleazy strippers (or at least stay in the club) and can't. There is nothing wrong with disliking it, but being if your dislike is so strong that you can't even barrel through a few minutes without dying out of shame/disgust/anger/whatever, that sounds more problematic.

[Klorox]

Normally, I would agree with this. There is of course nothing wrong with not wanting to see sleazy strippers. My own response too would be "yuck", and I'd rather wait in the car than in the club.
That doesn't seem like a problem, and I think if that was all, OP (or his partner) would not complain.

However, it seems to be more than that: OP wants to see the sleazy strippers (or at least stay in the club) and can't. There is nothing wrong with disliking it, but being if your dislike is so strong that you can't even barrel through a few minutes without dying out of shame/disgust/anger/whatever, that sounds more problematic.

Thanks Murk. I think you nailed it.

I don't consider myself a sleazy guy who's ever going to really be into sleazy stuff, but I think my reaction is abnormal and unhealthy.

And it's not a reaction I've ever experienced before.

Even before I met my ex-wife (we're talking the 90's now), I never really lived going to strip clubs or anything, but I could have a good time with friends and feel comfortable if I went to one.

[Xyril]

Thanks Murk. I think you nailed it.
Even before I met my ex-wife (we're talking the 90's now), I never really lived going to strip clubs or anything, but I could have a good time with friends and feel comfortable if I went to one.

I'm going to chime in and agree with some previous posters--you haven't been brainwashed, so you don't need to blame your ex-wife for doing anything wrong, nor should you feel like there is anything wrong with you. Not everyone likes strip clubs to begin with, and the fact that your ex-wife didn't like that sort of thing nudged you further in that direction. If you want to change, not because you think there's something defective about your current state, but rather because you want to be able to enjoy something new with your current girlfriend, then I'm sure there are ways to do so. I am not an expert in the field by any means, but my unsubstantiated lay-person's opinion is that when you're trying to change yourself--particularly when you're trying to learn to have fun doing something you didn't find fun before--coming in with the attitude that there's something wrong with you that needs fixing can be more of a hindrance than a motivation.

[SaintRidley]

Seeing an actual therapist instead of trying to do it yourself would probably help with your issue, which, yeah, that ain't brainwashing.

[happyturtle]

Perhaps I didn't go into enough detail in my original post, but my ex wife not only almost called off the wedding over strippers being at my bachelor party, but it's an event she held over my head for our entire marriage.

Okay... I'm going to give it a go, with the whole I Am Not A Therapist, etc...

You are still angry at your ex-wife for whatever number of things caused the marriage to unravel. This is normal.

This particular thing, that when you were arguing, she went back to 'But you saw strippers...', is one of those things you are still angry about. This is, again, totally normal. It's not a healthy way to argue, and it never let you feel forgiven for this minor lapse.

Now, you see burlesque dancers, and you suddenly get angry. Everyone else is right - this isn't brainwashing. I think this is triggering a memory of being blamed for your bachelor party, a blame event that happened over and over, and that happened when you were already angry and arguing with your wife over <insert reason here - money, sex, household chores etc>. So basically this event is triggering an entire marriage's worth of upset and anger.

What is the solution? Basically, you have to work through your past. A few sessions with an actual therapist would really help. I don't think it would take a lot, unless your marriage was abusive.

Good luck.

[Klorox]

Okay... I'm going to give it a go, with the whole I Am Not A Therapist, etc...

You are still angry at your ex-wife for whatever number of things caused the marriage to unravel. This is normal.

This particular thing, that when you were arguing, she went back to 'But you saw strippers...', is one of those things you are still angry about. This is, again, totally normal. It's not a healthy way to argue, and it never let you feel forgiven for this minor lapse.

Now, you see burlesque dancers, and you suddenly get angry. Everyone else is right - this isn't brainwashing. I think this is triggering a memory of being blamed for your bachelor party, a blame event that happened over and over, and that happened when you were already angry and arguing with your wife over <insert reason here - money, sex, household chores etc>. So basically this event is triggering an entire marriage's worth of upset and anger.

What is the solution? Basically, you have to work through your past. A few sessions with an actual therapist would really help. I don't think it would take a lot, unless your marriage was abusive.

Good luck.
Thank you.

I've considered going to see someone about this.

The amount of anger and disgust I feel if I even see one of these acts advertised on my Facebook feed isn't healthy.

I need to be able to get past this. I'd like to be "normal" in this sense: I'd like to be able to appreciate this. I'd like to be able to look at a pretty girl, even if she's not wearing much, and rather than. Be disgusted, just be able to appreciate the art she's trying to do and not feel anger, disgust or guilt.

[BWR]

Apart from seeking actual medical help for this (which I do recommend), I can only suggest a few things: Exposure and distraction.

Expose yourself to the unpleasant situation, in small and short-lived doses so you can begin to build up a tolerance for it. Expose yourself from as great a distance as possible at first, so the object of your discomfort does not take more of your field of vision and attention than necessary. Start off by looking at everything else around you so the object of your discomfort is in the background. Look at the other people there, the furniture, the walls, doors, ceiling, whatever. When you look at the at the dancer, look a little off to the side or above so you only get it in the corner of your eye.

Distract yourself by thinking about other things when you start feeling uncomfortable. A favorite movie or book, sing songs in your head, etc. Something you are very familiar with and can focus on easily, even if you end up mentally repeating a single scene, passage or line over and over. If you can get to the point where you can look straight at the dancers/strippers and only barely perceive them when thinking about something else, you have almost made it.

After that it's a matter of bringing your attention to the stuff that used to piss your off, and distracting yourself when you start feeling angry.
Lastly, I would look up instructional videos on burlesque dancing and stripping. A greater understanding of the technique will help you focus on that rather than the purpose of the act.

[1dominator]

Sounds like you love your girlfriend more than you ever loved your wife and the expectation that this person should hold a monopoly on your sexual desire sounds perfectly natural. Anger at yourself and in general when this expectation is frustrated is also perfectly natural and to be expected. Perhaps these new feelings are a natural expression of the stronger bond, trying to fight them may well be both unhealthy and unnatural. Is it really such a big disturbance to your life? There are plenty of times you can visit your GF at work and not see burlesque dancing, and presumably your friends do not exclusively congregate in strip clubs.

Yes these feelings are new and beyond your control, but so is your affection for your girlfriend. We are not fully in control of who we are and that is perfectly fine, that is what makes life interesting. New experiences bring out new reactions and new facets of our characters. And who is to say? Maybe you are correct in your revulsion, maybe IT IS wrong to experience sexual pleasure at the hands of some third party when your heart has been so completely devoted to her. Maybe you are betraying your girlfriend, if not in her eyes than before your own unspoken standards for yourself. People of past times certainly would have thought this way, and who is to say they were wrong? Just because it is increasingly difficult to justify feelings that do not cause you pleasure does not mean those feelings are wrong. Consider grief; it brings no pleasure and is in fact horrible to experience, serves no purpose and comes at a great cost in opportunity, energy and time, and yet most people are greatly disturbed by the thought of not feeling it and only the most deranged would voluntarily circumvent it.

[tensai_oni]

Get professional advice.

We're not professionals here, asking random strangers on the internet for "an unbiased view" is a very, VERY bad idea. Our views aren't unbiased at all, everyone talks through the lens of their own experience (which may not apply to other people), preconceptions and personal opinions.

Any advice that isn't "get professional advice" is at best useless and at worst potentially harmful, especially if you are going to accept posts that say what you want to hear without criticism. Which I am not saying you're doing, but if you do - don't.

[ngilop]

I can shed some light on this subject in a more...mm, experienced? matter, might be ther wrong termonigology.

The OP seems to be going through a reaction identicl to one I had years ago.

in short, OP is with new girl who has him feeling thing and thinking things he never has before. he is blaming his ex on 'brainwashing' him to think other women witnessed naked or near-nude is 'bad wrong' but Is unwilling to accept, as previous posters has stated the issue lie within himself and his onw thoughts, emotions and cognative processess.


SO allow me to illuminate. I was, and still am, random magentic to females ( its not as wonderful as you'd think and at times is rather bothersome) But stil I made a time of it and seemed like a dozen or so times a day I had someother female who needed to talk, flirt, or what not with me for various reasons to which i acquiesced. When I met and fell in love with my fiancee. I suddenly started to feel guilty over such thing, and I started to get upset at the women, my self, and some other parties for no reason. Placing blame on just about everything and anything i could.

Untill it actually dawned on me that I was head over heels in love and it was just my morallity of being monogamous kinda firing out of order.

I fully belive that is what is happening now with the OP. As said, you have not been brainwashed by your ex. You just 'went there' as since you are going through a divorce it easy to place blame on an adversary, as is human. Instead you need to just accept what is really going on and then the huge burden of guilt will lift and you cna once again do what you were doing as normal before.