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AKA_Bait
2007-07-26, 12:56 PM
Spinning off a discussion on another thread, I was wondering what sorts of BBEG do most players and DM's work with.

Is it an indepth character with close to the complexity of one of the player characters?

Is it one with less time devoted to creation that little is know about, or thought about, personality wise?

Do they meet the PC's more than once?

This can go for reoccuring underlings (MBEG's, if any, as well.)

Thoughts?

mostlyharmful
2007-07-26, 01:17 PM
BBEGs with enough similarities to the PCs that it gets under their skins and makes them question themselves eg. if they base themselves around protecting X City/tribe/religion make a BBEG that has ties to said group, history with X or has been screwed by X. make em with motivations that the players can understand and even agree to to a certain extent means they either get a kick out of beating the heck out of the BBEG or they get twisted around by what they should do.

Edit: time-wise doesn't really matter, it's the underlying concept and how you roll with the random **** that the PCs come out with rather than if you know the colour of his socks

CasESenSITItiVE
2007-07-26, 01:24 PM
without a more complicated BBEG, what's the difference between him and the tons of other random encounters?

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 01:27 PM
What is life, but a series of random encounters with really good roleplaying?

I prefer my BBEG's to have some good motivation, and be sympathetic in some way. While DMG says "don't be afraid to make the bad guys evil" it rarely makes a lot of sense for them to be utterly evil, with no particular reason.

Saph
2007-07-26, 01:41 PM
Oh, I wouldn't agree with that. Utterly evil can make for a great BBEG, as long as you pair it up with some other things. You don't need to make them sympathetic. How sympathetic was Sauron, or the Xenomorph from Alien?

I quite like utterly evil and ruthless BBEGs, and had one in the campaign I just finished running. It was based off Phantasy Star IV, and the BBEG was Zio. His goal was to destroy the environmental control systems that kept the world habitable, causing the death of every living creature on the planet. When the PCs ran into him, he didn't give them any melodramatic speeches, he just ordered them to surrender, and when they didn't obey he started methodically killing them one at a time. The PCs that got away spent the next few sessions gathering the special items and resources they needed to have a chance at beating him, then went back for a rematch. When they finally managed to kill him, the cheer that went up made me pretty sure that they weren't that bothered about him not being sympathetic. :)

- Saph

valadil
2007-07-26, 01:42 PM
In my games BBEGs absolutely have to show up more than once. They should also get some RP time with the players but that is less obligatory. Usually my BBEGs are characters in their own right who have some scheme to seize power. The amount of power varies from control of the thieves' guild to ascending to godhood.

I like doing story driven games, so it's essential that the PCs actually hate the BBEG. He can't just be evil. And he can't just be slightly more badass than the last thing they killed. He has to make it personal. Whenever possible I prefer to introduce the BBEG as an NPC and then let him spiral out of control, rather than introducing him as big and evil.

Koji
2007-07-26, 01:44 PM
Oh, I wouldn't agree with that. Utterly evil can make for a great BBEG, as long as you pair it up with some other things. You don't need to make them sympathetic. How sympathetic was Sauron, or the Xenomorph from Alien?

I quite like utterly evil and ruthless BBEGs, and had one in the campaign I just finished running. It was based off Phantasy Star IV, and the BBEG was Zio. His goal was to destroy the environmental control systems that kept the world habitable, causing the death of every living creature on the planet. When the PCs ran into him, he didn't give them any melodramatic speeches, he just ordered them to surrender, and when they didn't obey he started methodically killing them one at a time. The PCs that got away spent the next few sessions gathering the special items and resources they needed to have a chance at beating him, then went back for a rematch. When they finally managed to kill him, the cheer that went up made me pretty sure that they weren't that bothered about him not being sympathetic. :)

- Saph

Zio was a pimp is why. He was too scary not to like.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 01:44 PM
Oh, I wouldn't agree with that. Utterly evil can make for a great BBEG, as long as you pair it up with some other things. You don't need to make them sympathetic. How sympathetic was Sauron, or the Xenomorph from Alien?

I quite like utterly evil and ruthless BBEGs, and had one in the campaign I just finished running. It was based off Phantasy Star IV, and the BBEG was Zio. His goal was to destroy the environmental control systems that kept the world habitable, causing the death of every living creature on the planet. When the PCs ran into him, he didn't give them any melodramatic speeches, he just ordered them to surrender, and when they didn't obey he started methodically killing them one at a time. The PCs that got away spent the next few sessions gathering the special items and resources they needed to have a chance at beating him, then went back for a rematch. When they finally managed to kill him, the cheer that went up made me pretty sure that they weren't that bothered about him not being sympathetic. :)

- Saph

Yeah, that can work too. I just have a hard time visualizing a human of some sort deciding to utterly destroy a world for no reason. Kaorti, OK, etc, but I clearly need to learn to be more evil :smallamused:

Eeevil.

Dairun Cates
2007-07-26, 01:49 PM
I've done a little bit of everything from the Charismatic general with minions to the stand-alone near-God. From fighters to casters to explosives experts. From occultists to scientists. From obscure and hidden to someone the players have known since the beginning. I usually do spend a good couple of hours stating him out for the final battle though. I still love the one encounter where the boss became a supernatural horror with just about every power in the book, but the players didn't realize till after the battle that he really wasn't capable of doing much damage; like 4d8 to the room at most.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-07-26, 01:49 PM
What is life, but a series of random encounters with really good roleplaying?

I prefer my BBEG's to have some good motivation, and be sympathetic in some way. While DMG says "don't be afraid to make the bad guys evil" it rarely makes a lot of sense for them to be utterly evil, with no particular reason.

Yes and no. I've been in alot of games where the BBEG was sort of a cliché'd near anti-hero type (had a bad childhood, was wronged by someone good, etc...). Sometimes I like a villain who's just evil to the core, no ifs ands or buts. Don't get me wrong, though, a BBEG 'tragic' villain can be great if done right, but I've never had the opportunity to play against an one.

Sadly, in my group, I can't make up my own stories because 3/5 of my playing group just wants hack and slash, and get bored if the other 2 players do any kind of role-playing, so I have to balance things in an awkward way. I don't want to put much rhyme or reason into my BBEG if my players just see him as a walking XP sack.

Fixer
2007-07-26, 01:53 PM
I always create BBEG that have nothing related to the PCs. The BBEG has an agenda and the players are, at best, interferences. Once the PCs block him twice he'll start planning on how to defeat them and THEN he starts getting more powerful in comparison.

I use recurring BBEGs.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-26, 01:53 PM
I LOOOVE making ex-PCs BBEGs, (provided the player is ok with it) you get an instant stated out, thought out BBEG that all the PCs know, give a damn about and are often morally constrained to think of them as their problem or responsibility, You can only do it once before it gets predictable but the look on the players faces when the evil ritualist takes off his hood and it's Bob your childhood friend that you've spent ten years knocking around the wilderness with is priceless:smallbiggrin:

Saph
2007-07-26, 01:54 PM
Yeah, that can work too. I just have a hard time visualizing a human of some sort deciding to utterly destroy a world for no reason. Kaorti, OK, etc, but I clearly need to learn to be more evil :smallamused:

Eeevil.

Well, he did have his reasons. Thing is, though, someone like that isn't very likely to spend all that much time telling you about them.

The Alien movies are a good example. When you're being chased by giant eight-foot lightning-fast acid-blooded monsters who are ripping your companions into little pieces, figuring out their motivations is pretty low down on your priority list. :)

- Saph

AKA_Bait
2007-07-26, 01:58 PM
I figured I'd let this run a few posts before putting in my own 2 cents.

I think I'm with the rest of the crowd here. I prefer, as a DM, to put a pretty good amount of time into my villians and a fair amount into henchmen they are likley to meet more than once as well.

I like to have them show their face a few times also. Often not in a way that shows them to be an enemy at the start.

For example (Mike and Katie stay out):
One of my MBEG's at the moment is someone the PC's don't think of as anything more than a spoiled drunken noble youth. He's actually a vampire and pretends to be that way when out in public. They hate him already but not for any of the reasons they ought to. No doubt they will hate him even more when they find out...

Also, even for the BBEG's that are only going to be around to get squished, I like to give them, and sometimes even a random guard or lackey, a bit of personality and a motivation. As a DM I like to keep my options open. If I need a plot hook later on the lackey of the BBEG they spared is better than some random commoner and in a world where Raise Dead exists the BBEG you killed as level 3 characters can still bide their time and wait to get some revenge.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-26, 02:03 PM
but what do you do when the party suffers from a complete lack of predictability and wanders off and talks to the guy muttering in the corner? Suddenly your monologueing mastermind in the background is relegated to backdrop and you have to come up with a personality as they talk to random Mook *3 instead. Doublaly dangerous trap if you don't have your villans obvious to start with.

Koji
2007-07-26, 02:05 PM
Yeah, that can work too. I just have a hard time visualizing a human of some sort deciding to utterly destroy a world for no reason. Kaorti, OK, etc, but I clearly need to learn to be more evil :smallamused:

Eeevil.

He was actually worshipping some evil god or something, if I remember correctly.

puppyavenger
2007-07-26, 02:07 PM
Well the xenomorphs(why can I spell that more easily than alien) have pretty simple motives "HUNGRY"

Dairun Cates
2007-07-26, 02:12 PM
Actually, you do remind me of some of the wonderful things I've done as villains. Let's see. In the last campaign, it was their manager. In the campaign before that (GM'ed by another player), it was a player character from another campaign. In the first one I GM'ed with the current group, it was a very quiet spoken school teacher who turned out to be psychic working for the government while secretly trying to overtake it. Then there's the wonderful bevy of Paranoia, Risus, and other bosses.

Actually, the silly thing is that it seems like the regular bosses and reoccurring bosses are the ones my players always end up latching onto. So much so, that's there's a "bad guy" that keeps coming back because he's a player favorite. The sad thing is, he probably wouldn't be as memorable if he wasn't a frightening super-mercenary with a really bad pun for a name.

"Yooooooou!"
"Yes, me."
"No, I was saying your name. Yuuuuuuuuuu."
"I hate you."
"You hate yourself? You should go to a psychiatrist."
*six seconds of silence followed by an incredibly precise gunshot to an uncomfortable location.*

horseboy
2007-07-26, 02:14 PM
I don't spend much time on BBEG's so much as I spend MORE time on BBEG's mechanizations. Honestly I have WAY too many story threads I'm weaving together to let any one thing take up too much of my prep time.

AKA_Bait
2007-07-26, 02:18 PM
but what do you do when the party suffers from a complete lack of predictability and wanders off and talks to the guy muttering in the corner? Suddenly your monologueing mastermind in the background is relegated to backdrop and you have to come up with a personality as they talk to random Mook *3 instead. Doublaly dangerous trap if you don't have your villans obvious to start with.

Well, for one thing, my BBEG's pretty much never monolouge. Players can get them talking but typically (unless the PC's have something they want or have confused them in some way) they don't care what the PC's know or don't know and aren't about to tell them squat.

The other thing, the one I find most amusing, is when my PC's wander off to talk to the mook in the corner the mook in the corner turns out to be... a mook in the corner who is happy to chat them up about how his turnip farm is doing and complain about his wife.

As this is going on the mastermind in the background is going to go and accomplish whatever it was he was there for, usually not having anything to do with the PC's and wander off. He's not the plot hook after all. I have had players kick themselves later for just that reason.

Xefas
2007-07-26, 02:18 PM
Well, usually I crown each dungeon/adventure with a "boss monster" of some kind. He doesn't have to be intelligent, just big and scarier than all the other monsters, and with some impressive power/combat style that makes him remembered by the PCs later on, even if its only as "That awesome white dragon that kicked the crap out of us and ate the cleric".

Then, there is usually "The BBEG", the overarching villain. He's always smarter and more charismatic than the PCs, but he never reveals himself like a dope or anything. You never know who he is until he wants you to know, and thats usually at the very end right before he's within inches of total victory. Otherwise, he has servants do it, or he disguises himself so that noone will recognize him, and even then, he has contingencies for his contingencies (somtimes literally Contingent Spells) just in case.

Oh, and I always put a massive deal of work into his final encounter, making it last an epic amount of time, with plenty of "stages" so to speak. And the BBEG is always a spellcaster of some kind, with stats generated the same way as PCs (usually 30 pt buy) and more often than not, he has some kind of over-the-top totally-unbalanced-in-the-PCs-hands spell. Its not something like "you die with no save", but more like "I turn this entire city into a slow, lurching golem of doom. Its slam attack includes a fist made of several city blocks. Perhaps staying out of range while you fight the BBEG would be prudent."

Dairun Cates
2007-07-26, 02:34 PM
And the BBEG is always a spellcaster of some kind, with stats generated the same way as PCs (usually 30 pt buy) and more often than not, he has some kind of over-the-top totally-unbalanced-in-the-PCs-hands spell. Its not something like "you die with no save", but more like "I turn this entire city into a slow, lurching golem of doom. Its slam attack includes a fist made of several city blocks. Perhaps staying out of range while you fight the BBEG would be prudent."

Only an entire city? What is this, like a level 6 campaign? At the very least it should be an ooze if it's only going to be the size of a city. Try dealing with that much acid damage.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-07-26, 02:46 PM
My successful BBEGs are usually recurring, often seen, and typically develop personalities with some pretty decent depth. They're also usually lacking in an attribute that I perfer to call intelligence, but is really more up the alley of the Wis stat. Some... are more lacking than others. This is because I like my PCs alive, and most smart villains would use tactics that would, in fact, kill the PCs (especially in settings where D&D magic isn't available). For that matter, for I usually make sure that killing the PCs either isn't part of their main goal (absurdly hard once the PCs start meddling hard), or better yet, make keeping the PCs alive somehow factor into these goals. There aren't many ways to do that well, so I try to keep my villains very long-lived, so I don't have to make up an new one which inevitably bears a striking resemblance the the last.

Exactly the same goes for recurring underlings, with the added pain in the neck that the underlings are often lacking the BBEG's uber escape tactics, making them remarkably difficult to keep alive.


My unsuccessful villains are usually attempts at other types of villains, which all fell flat for one reason or another. I simply can't make a good one-shot badguy, and longer-lived villains that don't fall into the above catagory usually fade into the background because, quite frankly, I don't want to deal with them. They usually lack anything resembling character depth as well.

Sad.:smallfrown:

Morty
2007-07-26, 02:59 PM
A related question: am I the only one here that considers putting BBEG into campaign a bit... cliche?
I mean, finishing the campaign or adventure with some sort of final fight with the Biggest of Villians is a bit... unrealistic even for heroic fantasy like D&D, not to mention unoriginal. Then again, I don't have much DMing -I've run only to serious adventures, none of which were in D&D, and one of them had three BBEGs, but they were too powerful for players anyway- the goal of adventure wasn't to kill them anyway. But if I was running a campaign in D&D, I'd probably center the plot around something else than some bad guy plotting to do something good/evil.
What do you think?

mostlyharmful
2007-07-26, 03:02 PM
BBEGs that are miles out of the parties league can be fun, so long as you make sure that the players realize that if they go up against them they will DIE, it makes surviving key, possibly ieven salvaging what they can. which is a great change of pace.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-07-26, 03:05 PM
A related question: am I the only one here that considers putting BBEG into campaign a bit... cliche?
I mean, finishing the campaign or adventure with some sort of final fight with the Biggest of Villians is a bit... unrealistic even for heroic fantasy like D&D, not to mention unoriginal. Then again, I don't have much DMing -I've run only to serious adventures, none of which were in D&D, and one of them had three BBEGs, but they were too powerful for players anyway- the goal of adventure wasn't to kill them anyway. But if I was running a campaign in D&D, I'd probably center the plot around something else than some bad guy plotting to do something good/evil.
What do you think?

You're not the only one. However, a cliché is usually only a cliché because it works, and this one's a big one.

Dairun Cates
2007-07-26, 03:09 PM
A related question: am I the only one here that considers putting BBEG into campaign a bit... cliche?
I mean, finishing the campaign or adventure with some sort of final fight with the Biggest of Villians is a bit... unrealistic even for heroic fantasy like D&D, not to mention unoriginal. Then again, I don't have much DMing -I've run only to serious adventures, none of which were in D&D, and one of them had three BBEGs, but they were too powerful for players anyway- the goal of adventure wasn't to kill them anyway. But if I was running a campaign in D&D, I'd probably center the plot around something else than some bad guy plotting to do something good/evil.
What do you think?

Unrealistic? Yes.
Cliche? HELL YES!
Fun? Usually.

The reason people put BBEG in their campaign is mostly because without one, the party doesn't feel it has accomplished anything. People want to be heroic and honestly it's hard to be heroic without something to oppose. Even if multiple threats are going after an artifact, one is going to be bigger than the rest of them. What if they're just weathering out a really harsh environment? Well, as boring as that may be for some groups, the weather is still in its essence a BBEG. It's a great power working against them.

So, if you think your campaign doesn't have a BBEG, then you're probably not looking at it right. Every campaign has one. Most people just choose to personify it so they can give the players moral issues, someone to hate rather than a scenario, and someone to weave the plot. There are no plot-twists in a mostly empty desert. The sandstorm does not become sentient and eat the player. The best you can hope for is it's a monster or an artifact causing it. Players like to oppose someone and not something.

Morty
2007-07-26, 03:18 PM
The reason people put BBEG in their campaign is mostly because without one, the party doesn't feel it has accomplished anything. People want to be heroic and honestly it's hard to be heroic without something to oppose. Even if multiple threats are going after an artifact, one is going to be bigger than the rest of them. What if they're just weathering out a really harsh environment? Well, as boring as that may be for some groups, the weather is still in its essence a BBEG. It's a great power working against them.

By that logic yes, every campaign has a BBEG. That's legitimate way to look at it, but I meant campaigns with some evil, or good, dangerous someone who pulls all the strings and whom PCs kill at the end of the story.


So, if you think your campaign doesn't have a BBEG, then you're probably not looking at it right. Every campaign has one. Most people just choose to personify it so they can give the players moral issues, someone to hate rather than a scenario, and someone to weave the plot. There are no plot-twists in a mostly empty desert. The sandstorm does not become sentient and eat the player. The best you can hope for is it's a monster or an artifact causing it. Players like to oppose someone and not something.

This only applies to heroic campaigns. While most of D&D campaigns are heroic, they doesn't have to. Players can be just mercenaries who fight for reward, or they can be villians themselves, or whatever they and DM can think up.

Saph
2007-07-26, 03:20 PM
A related question: am I the only one here that considers putting BBEG into campaign a bit... cliche?
I mean, finishing the campaign or adventure with some sort of final fight with the Biggest of Villians is a bit... unrealistic even for heroic fantasy like D&D, not to mention unoriginal.

One of the things I've learnt as a DM is that fun trumps originality.

It's got nothing to do with realism, and everything to do with narrative. A good story needs some kind of satisfying climax. The simplest way to get it is to have a giant epic battle with a bad*ss villain. You can have other kinds of exciting climaxes, but the 'epic battle against the BBEG with everything at stake' is popular for a reason - it's dramatic and fun.

Of course, there are alternatives. 'Sabotage the main reactor and then escape from the area, fighting off the surviving enemies along the way, before the whole place explodes in a giant nuclear fireball' is another good one.

- Saph

Dairun Cates
2007-07-26, 03:25 PM
This only applies to heroic campaigns. While most of D&D campaigns are heroic, they doesn't have to. Players can be just mercenaries who fight for reward, or they can be villians themselves, or whatever they and DM can think up.

But I assume the mercenaries are going to actually fight against someone. Some kind of boss. Otherwise, it's just a string of random encounters and that gets boring fast. You're assuming that all BBEG's are overlords with orbs. Also, as Saph said, fun trumps originality. Or as a few good friends of mine put it. Cliches are cliche for a reason.

Edit: Also, end bosses give a sense of finality, which may not seem like much, but most players like to have an ending rather than having a campaign die.

AKA_Bait
2007-07-26, 03:29 PM
I've found, even in the evil and neutral campagins you need a BBEG of some kind. Somtimes this takes the form of a BBGG (Big Bad Good Guy) or a BBEG with diffrent motives. The nice thing about evil is that it doesn't play well with itself so even an evil party can find themselves, if they say rob the wrong people, with a seriously powerful antagonist who may just as well be evil themselves.

Regardless of if they are a good guy or a bad guy I think they need personality to motivate the players to want to get rid of them.

I suppose this doesn't need to be true of individual adventures but I've found that in any campagin setting this tends to happen almost on it's own. In a world where there are great powers opposed to eachother, almost whatever you do is going to tick off someone important. Do it enough, you have a BBEG, do it to enough diffrent NPC's out there, you have several.

Morty
2007-07-26, 03:29 PM
One of the things I've learnt as a DM is that fun trumps originality.

It's got nothing to do with realism, and everything to do with narrative. A good story needs some kind of satisfying climax. The simplest way to get it is to have a giant epic battle with a bad*ss villain. You can have other kinds of exciting climaxes, but the 'epic battle against the BBEG with everything at stake' is popular for a reason - it's dramatic and fun.

Well, maybe it's just that I'm hell-bent on breaking stereotypes and cliches when I play, DM or design. Also, I tend to play non-heroic campaigns- while playing D&D, as non-heroic as I can. For me, originalty=fun, but I do realize it's not common view. But even normally, BBEGs can quickly get repetitive and boring.


Edit: Also, end bosses give a sense of finality, which may not seem like much, but most players like to have an ending rather than having a campaign die.

There are more ways to end a campaign. Achieving reward, discovering something unknown... there are thousand ways to do this.

AKA_Bait
2007-07-26, 03:34 PM
There are more ways to end a campaign. Achieving reward, discovering something unknown... there are thousand ways to do this.

Here's one: "Rocks fall. Everyone Dies."

Kidding aside, although there are lots of ways to end it they still need to overcome obstacles to get there. My players at least would be bored if those obsticles were all things like 'disarm or avoid all the traps in this old tomb and find the really old scroll... you found it! The End.'

Even Startrek TNG, which had no specific series spanning overvillian had BBEGs, that reoocured, throughout (Q, The Borg (might as well be viewed as one person), etc.).

Dairun Cates
2007-07-26, 03:53 PM
There are more ways to end a campaign. Achieving reward, discovering something unknown... there are thousand ways to do this.

While it's true that you can with something other than killing a BBEG, you will often interpose something in the way of that goal. Reaching that goal or discovery is all the sweeter if there was something in the way. Even most dark anti-hero plots have some kind of rival or force that can be personified stopping the good or bad guys.

The original Star Wars trilogy ends with the fall of the empire, but immediately before that, Luke had to essentially defeat the emperor and his father and come to terms with the consequences of his actions.

That is heroic however.

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has a cast with nothing but selfish intent and exploration in mind. Still, the crew had the Vogons to deal with. While they didn't ever technically defeat them, they still spent their time avoiding them. They were a force against the heroes.

90% of the Discworld books are stories about people with no motive greater than saving their own ass, but almost every single one of them boils down eventually to someone being in their way. Someone that pushes them to have to work for their goals.

That's the point, whether you're trying to avoid cliche or not, the plot still needs to build. There needs to be some ultimate obstacle to overcome before they reach that goal. If the obstacles don't build, then there's no climax, and a story without a climax, whether they reached their goal or not feels hollow at the end. Trying to remove the concept of a BBEG entirely because it's cliche, whether it's a person or an organization, is like trying to remove the antagonist. The only reason people tend to personify it is for role-playing opportunity. There's no tension between a hero and a hurricane. People don't grow rivalries and learn about back stories when pitted against a forest fire.

Even a band of selfish mercenaries occasionally has to fight a group of bandits, and they're going to generally have a leader. Not characterizing that leader is just a missed opportunity. It was more flavor to add to the story.

I might also bring up that a band of mercenaries is the single biggest cliche for anti-heroes. So even you're guilty of using cliches from time to time. It an inescapable grip. However, it's not the cliches that matter. It's what you do with them.

its_all_ogre
2007-07-26, 03:58 PM
i normally start a campaign with a number of powerful guys who are in a deadlocked position. then the pcs come along and change the situation, generally one or two of the big guys will be too hard for them, but they can gain xp by defeating the weaker ones until they are ready to kill off the harder ones.
when they do strike down the penultimate bad guy, the final one will either attempt to kill them straight after the fight(assuming they know about it some how) or leave the area to escape these obviously powerful enemies. last stands are generally only had by bad guys who are unwilling to retreat and start all over again 'too many years have i dedicated here to just let it go to waste'
in an older game of mine i had a vast underground cavern that a liche had set up his lair in, their was a stronghold to the north inhabited by a renegade cleric of nerull, previously the liches ally. another fortress was held by a deathknight, fallen paladin who now hated all undead and especially that damned cleric of nerull.
their was a ruined settlement where a level 11 necromancer lived, he was CG and had deep regrets about the evils he had previously committed. he was alive only due to being able to cast spells like teleport and the like.
the lich had levels of the necrophage prestige class and had used these techniques to create all kinds of unholy nasties. bonding giant spiders and dire bats into one being for example.
the best bit about this all, to me as dm, was that the 'lich' was not a lich at all. he had started turning into an undead creature and realised before dying what was happening, so he tried to become a lich and failed......
the huge battles were going on over who got to destroy this lich, but he was already destroyed.

i always spend loads of time on bbeg creation, plan it out for weeks and they always recur if they can escape.

Morty
2007-07-26, 04:04 PM
While it's true that you can with something other than killing a BBEG, you will often interpose something in the way of that goal. Reaching that goal or discovery is all the sweeter if there was something in the way. Even most dark anti-hero plots have some kind of rival or force that can be personified stopping the good or bad guys.

The original Star Wars trilogy ends with the fall of the empire, but immediately before that, Luke had to essentially defeat the emperor and his father and come to terms with the consequences of his actions.

That is heroic however.

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has a cast with nothing but selfish intent and exploration in mind. Still, the crew had the Vogons to deal with. While they didn't ever technically defeat them, they still spent their time avoiding them. They were a force against the heroes.

90% of the Discworld books are stories about people with no motive greater than saving their own ass, but almost every single one of them boils down eventually to someone being in their way. Someone that pushes them to have to work for their goals.

That's the point, whether you're trying to avoid cliche or not, the plot still needs to build. There needs to be some ultimate obstacle to overcome before they reach that goal. If the obstacles don't build, then there's no climax, and a story without a climax, whether they reached their goal or not feels hollow at the end. Trying to remove the concept of a BBEG entirely because it's cliche, whether it's a person or an organization, is like trying to remove the antagonist. The only reason people tend to personify it is for role-playing opportunity. There's no tension between a hero and a hurricane. People don't grow rivalries and learn about back stories when pitted against a forest fire.

Even a band of selfish mercenaries occasionally has to fight a group of bandits, and they're going to generally have a leader. Not characterizing that leader is just a missed opportunity. It was more flavor to add to the story.

I might also bring up that a band of mercenaries is the single biggest cliche for anti-heroes. So even you're guilty of using cliches from time to time. It an inescapable grip. However, it's not the cliches that matter. It's what you do with them.

That's all true, but you're kind of missing my point. I have no problems with players fighting their way to whatever goal they have; I just feel that having some BBEG with apparently brainless minions and some Ultimate Goal is not only cliche but not really necessary.

Dairun Cates
2007-07-26, 04:18 PM
That's all true, but you're kind of missing my point. I have no problems with players fighting their way to whatever goal they have; I just feel that having some BBEG with apparently brainless minions and some Ultimate Goal is not only cliche but not really necessary.

That's actually the thing you're missing on here. The phrase BBEG doesn't necessarily mean those things. The stupid minions and goal are camp and cliche, not the BBEG. There's nothing stopping you from having intelligent minions or a BBEG that's just a politician that wants a little more power. You shouldn't avoid the BBEG, because it's ultimately in some way a necessity. It's still a cliche, but, by itself, its not an inherently damaging one.

The point here being that endless minions with bad aim and world-conquering plots are merely one drink that fills metaphorical cup of your BBEG, but you shouldn't spite the cup for contents. The BBEG IS cliche, but it's a good one. Whether you want to go really cliche or completely out there is up to you. What you choose to fill your bad guy cup with is your own choice.

As for the endless mindless minions and ultimate plan, even that can be done originally. One of my favorite is Captain Kraken from M&M second edition. It's Cthulu as a space pirate. You don't get more original than that. I think that's the flavor most of us are going for, a sense of fun and familiarity with a bit of absurdity. Taking the cliche and the non-cliche to make something original.

Edit: Oh, and as for necessity, nothing is really necessary in a plot, but it IS fun.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-07-26, 04:47 PM
I try to avoid long, heavy backstories with BBEGs. I give them enough to have some history and a sensible motivation.

My main focus is not to hold him in reserve for too long; players react best, in my opinion, to BBEGs who they encounter often but who always seem to escape. Let the players be the biggest part of the BBEG's story, not the guys who arrive at the end of his life and pull the trigger.

Diggorian
2007-07-26, 06:00 PM
I kinda make a bunch of NPCs with their own schemes and the one or few that are unchecked or unnoticed by the PC's become the BBEGs ... or their employers depending on the party's goals. :smallamused:

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-26, 06:26 PM
When I make a BBEG, I make one that means something to the party. He's almost never out for world-conquest or destroying the world or anything that melodramatic. He's usually out to kill the players for something they did to him/his family/his business. It makes things much more personal when you know that the BBEG doesn't care about blowing up the world, he just cares about putting your head on a pike and parading it around.

I feel this gives a player, whether he's evil or good, a sense of self-importance and the feeling of actually accomplishing something when it comes to earlier adventures. Particularly when they look at their enemy and realize. "Hey, I remember that guy from X! .. Why didn't I kill him back then?"

Dairun Cates
2007-07-26, 06:30 PM
I feel this gives a player, whether he's evil or good, a sense of self-importance and the feeling of actually accomplishing something when it comes to earlier adventures. Particularly when they look at their enemy and realize. "Hey, I remember that guy from X! .. Why didn't I kill him back then?"

Are we talking more about, "Hey, that's the bounty hunter we left for dead in the desert back in the first session" or more, "Hey, that's my childhood friend who I swore a promise with to always protect her and now she's trying to cut my head off"? Just curious and wanted clarification.

karmuno
2007-07-26, 07:49 PM
The campaign I'm about to start is going to have several potential BBEG's. Basically there are several factions who are all trying to gain control of this Empire. Among them are the government itself, a secret organization that once strove to liberate the country but now seeks only power for its own sake, and a lich who has infiltrated this church, disguised as an elf, and is starting to raise an army. Right now, I think the lich is going to be the BBEG, but that could change depending on the players' actions (there are many more "sides" as well). The characters may even join the lich, since he spends most of his time under an illusion spell.

All of these factions have detailed backstories, but they're really for my own amusement, as I doubt the characters will discover more than a tenth of the history. And Dairun Cates has given me the idea of using some 12th level characters from another (evil) campaign as MBEGs (a half-orc barbarian and a halfling assassin). That is, if the characters get that far and they don't already have too much on their plates.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-26, 07:57 PM
Are we talking more about, "Hey, that's the bounty hunter we left for dead in the desert back in the first session" or more, "Hey, that's my childhood friend who I swore a promise with to always protect her and now she's trying to cut my head off"? Just curious and wanted clarification.

Either/or, based on how the character treated the NPC. Normally a bounty hunter would just leave, but if they were particularly cruel and/or stupid then maybe.

Dementrius
2007-07-26, 09:33 PM
I could easily spend two hours detailing a BBEG – not the “boss monster”, but rather the campaign plot device.

The trick is: if the PCs go a different way, make the BBEG win. Not everything all at once, but a series of little victories that add up in the end.

For example:
In the Zhentil Keep campaign I'm running at the moment, all of the PCs are evilly-aligned and mostly worshippers of Bane. It made sense at the campaign outset to have a counterpoint to them, working against Bane's power consistently through the campaign.

My choice was a sect of Tormite worshippers - dedicated to putting Bane "back in his box" - called the "Bleak Duty". Some BBGG's to have some fun with. Gold dragons, paladins, the whole deal.

However, For internal consistency we need to know the basics of how they plan to do that, after all you don't manage to kill a god every day*. Logic follows thusly:

1. The gods are much more vulnerable when manifesting on Toril.
2. Bane will still be awesomely powerful even in an avatar form.
3. Need more power
4. God have more power

Solution:

a. Create a ritual to call Bane’s power to Toril within a mortal body
b. Mortal body will be destroyed – make it someone you don’t like.
c. Trick someone you don’t like (see Half-Ogre / Half Dwarf CZilla of Bane with 4 Cha) into undertaking the rituals by planting them in his path. The rituals must provide the temptation of power (in this case lesser / greater visage of the deity).
d. Once all rituals complete, use same rituals to draw down Torm’s power into your body.
e. Enact Tantras II: The rematch
f. ???
g. Profit!

Now the fact that the BBGG is willing to risk himself and his own god’s destruction is an interesting point. But the benefits may outweigh the risks.

Now it’s time to think about the twist. The PCs will be expecting a BBGG, so why not make him a BBEG in sheep’s clothing. Perhaps he isn’t risking Torm’s destruction, but planning it without the knowledge of the rest of his sect. But why?

The BBEG is the oldest surviving member of the Torm worshippers in Tantras (16 at the time). The prevailing story within the church is that Torm only used volunteer souls to power his battle against Bane, but the BBEG knows the truth – Torm only stopped because the battle was over: The BBEG was the next in line to be utterly destroyed and was in connection with Torm at the time of his death, causing some of the divine spark to backlash into him (thus some cool unique powers).

The BBEG can cast divine spells, but not because they are granted by Torm, rather because the BBEG steals them. (Ur Priest / Divine Hierophant). He has a loyal cadre of followers (good creatures for the PCs to beat up for a change) who believe in the destruction of Bane, but know nothing of the BBEG’s plans for Torm.
So far he has planted two rituals and the Banite cleric has heard rumours there are more and is keen to say the least. The third is in a fake “Bleak Duty” stronghold defended by his fanatical followers** who are willing to die for the ruse.

In the last session the BBEG turned up in Zhentil Keep and interrupted*** Fzoul Chembryl’s public sacrifice of a Planetar. Not a rescue as such, the Planetar is now locked in a dungeon while the BBEG steals its SLAs.

The big reveal is going to be so much fun…


* In FR it's only every second day
** I’m tempted to use a young adult Gold Dragon with the vow of poverty. Hey! I’ve got to deal with a Half-ogre/half-dwarf CZilla, Shadow Weave Batman, a Disciple of Dispater, and a diplomancer Bard – they don’t deserve mercy!
*** Enlarged Holy Word. Is there anything it can’t do?