Genesis/Demiplane Seed spell for 5e. Need assistance designing it.

[Jorgumander]

As part of our ongoing campaign with my kids, I'm bringing in my OWN old favorite character as an NPC guide/mentor/and eventually antagonist. So far I have been able to find everything I need to remake him, although some of the hunting has been rough.

He had a demiplane he created and used as a base of operations. Now, I realize as an NPC, I can just give him whatever I want to. But I would like to eventually give the kids the spell for themselves.

I have obviously looked at the 8th Level Spell: Demiplane. And it is nothing at all like what I need.

I would like to make it as close to the 9th level Genesis or the 10th level Planeswalker Prestige Class ability Demiplane Seed. But 5e doesn't use XP as a resource for anymore (thankfully). I see Wish went through similar changes. How could I do this with 5e and this spell idea?

[GnomeWorks]

As part of our ongoing campaign with my kids, I'm bringing in my OWN old favorite character as an NPC guide/mentor/and eventually antagonist.

Do you want your kids to not trust NPCs?

This is how to get your kids to not trust NPCs.

[JNAProductions]

Wait just one moment-you brought back an old character of yours to use as a DMPC/Antagonist? I would recommend making a thread just about that, because hoo boy, does that sound like a BAD IDEA.

As for the spell, I'd tie it to an artifact of some sort.

[LeonBH]

I'd like to say, that's a great idea, actually. Give 'em hell :)

As for creating demiplanes in 5e, there's no spell aside from Demiplane and Wish that can do that, outside of homebrewing one. You could allow them to cast Plane Shift and move to Demiplanes that were already previously constructed.

However, you can lean into a magic item called the Rod of Security. This very rare rod allows you to transport you and 199 other creatures into an extraplanar space, and you choose the form the paradise takes. Here's the full item description:


While holding this rod, you can use an action to activate it. The rod then instantly transports you and up to 199 other willing creatures you can see to a paradise that exists in an extraplanar space. You choose the form that the paradise takes. It could be a tranquil garden, lovely glade, cheery tavern, immense palace, tropical island, fantastic carnival, or whatever else you can imagine. Regardless of its nature, the paradise contains enough water and food to sustain its visitors. Everything else that can be interacted with inside the extraplanar space can exist only there. For example, a flower picked from a garden in the paradise disappears if it is taken outside the extraplanar space.

For each hour spent in the paradise, a visitor regains hit points as if it had spent 1 Hit Die. Also, creatures don't age while in the paradise, although time passes normally. Visitors can remain in the paradise for up to 200 days divided by the number of creatures present (round down).

When the time runs out or you use an action to end it, all visitors reappear in the location they occupied when you activated the rod, or an unoccupied space nearest that location. The rod can't be used again until ten days have passed.

Now, as this is a Very Rare item, the DMG tells us this is powered by the equivalent of an 8th level spell. So you could homebrew a spell of "Secure Paradise" and slap on the effects of the above, with some modifications, and be on your merry way. :)

Another spell that can do a similar thing to this item is Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion at 7th level, but it is much more limited compared to what it can do. It takes 1 minute to cast, lasts 24 hours, and has a 5gp gold cost when casting. You can use this to inspire yourself as well.

[Jorgumander]

Do you want your kids to not trust NPCs?

This is how to get your kids to not trust NPCs.

Haha.



Re: Genesis/Demiplane Seed spell for 5e. Need assistance designing it.
Wait just one moment-you brought back an old character of yours to use as a DMPC/Antagonist? I would recommend making a thread just about that, because hoo boy, does that sound like a BAD IDEA.

As for the spell, I'd tie it to an artifact of some sort.

No, no. I really promise it'll be ok. At the moment they are hauling him around. He's miniaturized and trapped inside of an ostrich-egg-sized little prison of amber. He communicates telepathically with them occasionally to move them along if I think they need it. He won't ever be out to destroy them. Eventually they will end up on his demiplane. They also ended up with a baby. They have been hauling it around as well and taking care of it.

The two are tied together. He actually needs the baby to bring himself back to full power. Will they allow this? Will they talk him into some new solution? He will offer them a path to immortality which he is seeking as well! What will they do? It's up to them. While he will never be "out to get them" so to speak...he may not always have their moral best interest in mind. I want them to flex these mental muscles and figure out what they want to do with what they have.

[Jorgumander]

I'd like to say, that's a great idea, actually. Give 'em hell :)

As for creating demiplanes in 5e, there's no spell aside from Demiplane and Wish that can do that, outside of homebrewing one. You could allow them to cast Plane Shift and move to Demiplanes that were already previously constructed.

However, you can lean into a magic item called the Rod of Security. This very rare rod allows you to transport you and 199 other creatures into an extraplanar space, and you choose the form the paradise takes. Here's the full item description:



Now, as this is a Very Rare item, the DMG tells us this is powered by the equivalent of an 8th level spell. So you could homebrew a spell of "Secure Paradise" and slap on the effects of the above, with some modifications, and be on your merry way. :)

Another spell that can do a similar thing to this item is Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion at 7th level, but it is much more limited compared to what it can do. It takes 1 minute to cast, lasts 24 hours, and has a 5gp gold cost when casting. You can use this to inspire yourself as well.

This sounds more like what I'm going for. I see as an 8th level spell equivalent it is still temporary. Perhaps if I move it up to 9th level it can be permanent? Possibly even slowly grow in size? Slowly? It could be much bigger now. He has been trapped for a long time.

[The_Jette]

This sounds more like what I'm going for. I see as an 8th level spell equivalent it is still temporary. Perhaps if I move it up to 9th level it can be permanent? Possibly even slowly grow in size? Slowly? It could be much bigger now. He has been trapped for a long time.

Going from temporary to permanent with just one spell level difference is a pretty extreme jump in power. If you want to give them the ability to create demiplanes, I would suggest homebrewing a ritual, or something similar, that requires time, money, and effort. Right off the top of my head, something along the lines of using the 8th level spell to create the demiplane, the spending a 9th level spell slot to power the ritual, and meditating on shaping the energy for at least 8 hours a day, every day, for an extended period. My opinion would be 1 day per person the "Paradise" should be able to house. If you want the full 200 people you have to spend an 8th and 9th level spell slot a day, plus meditate for 200 days straight. Of course, if they only want it for themselves, they only need to spend a few days building it. But, that's an extremely powerful ability. Using something like that, a human could double, or triple, their life span by only coming out when they need to interact with people. Adventurers weary of their never ending battle to destroy evil can retire to their paradise and watch the world descend into the madness it deserves for never heeding the words of the adventurers. Or, people could just use it as long term storage. I mean, if people don't age, then why would fresh meat, or produce? :smallbiggrin:

[Jorgumander]

Going from temporary to permanent with just one spell level difference is a pretty extreme jump in power. If you want to give them the ability to create demiplanes, I would suggest homebrewing a ritual, or something similar, that requires time, money, and effort. Right off the top of my head, something along the lines of using the 8th level spell to create the demiplane, the spending a 9th level spell slot to power the ritual, and meditating on shaping the energy for at least 8 hours a day, every day, for an extended period. My opinion would be 1 day per person the "Paradise" should be able to house. If you want the full 200 people you have to spend an 8th and 9th level spell slot a day, plus meditate for 200 days straight. Of course, if they only want it for themselves, they only need to spend a few days building it. But, that's an extremely powerful ability. Using something like that, a human could double, or triple, their life span by only coming out when they need to interact with people. Adventurers weary of their never ending battle to destroy evil can retire to their paradise and watch the world descend into the madness it deserves for never heeding the words of the adventurers. Or, people could just use it as long term storage. I mean, if people don't age, then why would fresh meat, or produce? :smallbiggrin:


OOH! You just gave me some ideas! :)

his demiplane is strongly invested in shadow magic. This character was never evil, he just used the Shadow Weave a lot. He tended more towards amoral and immoral. It has a giant imposing black tower made of the stone of the plane on it. This is a distraction, on the off chance he was ever attacked here (it made sense in the campaign in which he was an NPC). His real dwelling is through a series of underwater caves that reach to the center of the plane (which is basically sphere-shaped).

The new players will be given tasks of assisting him to populate it. Rewards with his vast stored riches. Assisting him attain his own immortality, which will in turn be offered to them. As I stated earlier, he is perfectly willing to share with them. But he will try to talk them into his own bizarre solutions. I want to see how they handle this and what solutions they come up with for themselves. So this part is left intentionally open-ended.

I LOVE the idea of spending 200+ days casting, recasting the spell and sacrificing that limited 9th level slot to boot!

[The_Jette]

OOH! You just gave me some ideas! :)

his demiplane is strongly invested in shadow magic. This character was never evil, he just used the Shadow Weave a lot. He tended more towards amoral and immoral. It has a giant imposing black tower made of the stone of the plane on it. This is a distraction, on the off chance he was ever attacked here (it made sense in the campaign in which he was an NPC). His real dwelling is through a series of underwater caves that reach to the center of the plane (which is basically sphere-shaped).

The new players will be given tasks of assisting him to populate it. Rewards with his vast stored riches. Assisting him attain his own immortality, which will in turn be offered to them. As I stated earlier, he is perfectly willing to share with them. But he will try to talk them into his own bizarre solutions. I want to see how they handle this and what solutions they come up with for themselves. So this part is left intentionally open-ended.

I LOVE the idea of spending 200+ days casting, recasting the spell and sacrificing that limited 9th level slot to boot!

I'm always glad to help. :smallbiggrin:

[LeonBH]

The problem with having to spend a 9th level slot to cast this spell every day is, they could Wish for the same effects instead and spend that slot once. I think the 8th level (temporary) to 9th level (permanent) jump can be justified in that it's a 9th level slot, but you could instead just pull from Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion and give it a 24 hour duration that can be recast daily. So they have to always save their 8th level slot if they want to go to the Paradise.

You could also remove the permanence of it and have it be destroyed at the end of the duration, and when they recast it, they're creating a new Paradise. This simplifies the casting of the spell. Finally, add in a gold cost to casting this spell, as with MMM.

That said, if the 200-day ritual is good with you, then game on :)

[Jorgumander]

The problem with having to spend a 9th level slot to cast this spell every day is, they could Wish for the same effects instead and spend that slot once. I think the 8th level (temporary) to 9th level (permanent) jump can be justified in that it's a 9th level slot, but you could instead just pull from Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion and give it a 24 hour duration that can be recast daily. So they have to always save their 8th level slot if they want to go to the Paradise.

You could also remove the permanence of it and have it be destroyed at the end of the duration, and when they recast it, they're creating a new Paradise. This simplifies the casting of the spell. Finally, add in a gold cost to casting this spell, as with MMM.

That said, if the 200-day ritual is good with you, then game on :)

I was hoping to have it be something that is not only permanent, but in his absence, has been steadily growing. Doesn't have to be a rapid growth. 10 year or so?

[Jorgumander]

Taking ideas from folks here and all over the internet and old 3.X books, I came up with a rough idea of what I wanted and set it into a rules set. Please feel free to critique and pop in at any time with advice. Also, please keep in mind that while this is for my campaign with my kids, and it doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, that I would like it to be somewhat fair.

The goal: I wanted a permanent demiplane that the caster could manipulate as far as weather, terrain, and features, as long as they are made from dirt, sand, water (salt or fresh), stone and the like. Day and night, or any rotation of these. Temperature. Gravity. Etc. I wanted it to have the option of being a temporary getaway (and therefore an easier casting) or a permanent abode and base of operations. I wanted it to have the drawback of being able to be invaded (for story purposes) and possibly even taken over by aggressors. I wanted it to continue to grow in the absence of the caster while the creator of the demiplane lived. Therefore, when my players finally get to enter it, they will see a much more vast realm than one would be on initial casting.

So hopefully that explains where I'm trying to get with this. :)

Genesis (Ritual)
9th Level Conjuration
Casting Time: 10 Minutes or 1 hour*
Range: 60'
Components: V, S, M* (the permanent version needs also requires the sacrifice of one 8th, one 7th, and one 6th level spell slot from the caster.)

You conjure a demiplane into existence that is 180' sphere. You have control of weather, ambient light (and if it passes from day to night). all non-living environmental condition. Geographical makeup. You may have mountains, plains, rivers, seas, canyons, caves, completely smooth all over, sand, stone, etc. ANY kind of geographical basic conditions may be brought forth by the caster.

Temporary Version: Lasts 24 hours, and one person per caster level may be named during the casting. These plus the caster are allowed through the portal to the demiplane. Nobody else may enter. Teleportation into or out of the demiplane is impossible, although those allowed on the demiplane may freely leave through the portal. The plane is 180' in diameter. It stays this size for the entire 24 hours. There are no plants or animals except what the caster or those she allows onto the plane may bring with them. Spells like Stone Shape may be used to customize the natural features.

Permanent Version: All rules are the same with the following exceptions. Once the plane is conjured, it is initially 180' in diameter. It continues to grow, an additional 180' each month for the first year. After that it only grows 180' a year as long as 1) the original caster lives or 2) the new controller of the plane lives.

The caster may make up to 3 portals entering and exiting this demiplane. Leading to any point on the plane. No persons are named during the casting. The caster decides the portal keys for entry, however ANY being that learns/knows these keys and where the portals are may freely enter or exit the realm. If the original caster is killed or dies for some reason, and does not somehow pass control along to a new "owner" of the plane (through it being stolen, or willingly passing it along) the plane stops growing and the weather settles into a natural pattern. Generally a little on the chaotic side. If control is retained, the "owner" of the plane may always choose to control the weather on the plane.

Some ancient Genesis Demiplanes are truly vast realms rivaling small planets in size and geography.

[The_Jette]

Taking ideas from folks here and all over the internet and old 3.X books, I came up with a rough idea of what I wanted and set it into a rules set. Please feel free to critique and pop in at any time with advice. Also, please keep in mind that while this is for my campaign with my kids, and it doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, that I would like it to be somewhat fair.

The goal: I wanted a permanent demiplane that the caster could manipulate as far as weather, terrain, and features, as long as they are made from dirt, sand, water (salt or fresh), stone and the like. Day and night, or any rotation of these. Temperature. Gravity. Etc. I wanted it to have the option of being a temporary getaway (and therefore an easier casting) or a permanent abode and base of operations. I wanted it to have the drawback of being able to be invaded (for story purposes) and possibly even taken over by aggressors. I wanted it to continue to grow in the absence of the caster while the creator of the demiplane lived. Therefore, when my players finally get to enter it, they will see a much more vast realm than one would be on initial casting.

So hopefully that explains where I'm trying to get with this. :)

Genesis (Ritual)
9th Level Conjuration
Casting Time: 10 Minutes or 1 hour*
Range: 60'
Components: V, S, M* (the permanent version needs also requires the sacrifice of one 8th, one 7th, and one 6th level spell slot from the caster.)

You conjure a demiplane into existence that is 180' sphere. You have control of weather, ambient light (and if it passes from day to night). all non-living environmental condition. Geographical makeup. You may have mountains, plains, rivers, seas, canyons, caves, completely smooth all over, sand, stone, etc. ANY kind of geographical basic conditions may be brought forth by the caster.

Temporary Version: Lasts 24 hours, and one person per caster level may be named during the casting. These plus the caster are allowed through the portal to the demiplane. Nobody else may enter. Teleportation into or out of the demiplane is impossible, although those allowed on the demiplane may freely leave through the portal. The plane is 180' in diameter. It stays this size for the entire 24 hours. There are no plants or animals except what the caster or those she allows onto the plane may bring with them. Spells like Stone Shape may be used to customize the natural features.

Permanent Version: All rules are the same with the following exceptions. Once the plane is conjured, it is initially 180' in diameter. It continues to grow, an additional 180' each month for the first year. After that it only grows 180' a year as long as 1) the original caster lives or 2) the new controller of the plane lives.

The caster may make up to 3 portals entering and exiting this demiplane. Leading to any point on the plane. No persons are named during the casting. The caster decides the portal keys for entry, however ANY being that learns/knows these keys and where the portals are may freely enter or exit the realm. If the original caster is killed or dies for some reason, and does not somehow pass control along to a new "owner" of the plane (through it being stolen, or willingly passing it along) the plane stops growing and the weather settles into a natural pattern. Generally a little on the chaotic side. If control is retained, the "owner" of the plane may always choose to control the weather on the plane.

Some ancient Genesis Demiplanes are truly vast realms rivaling small planets in size and geography.

By these rules, a demiplane would be the size of Pluto in about 4,400 years. So, that's a pretty good estimate. If it stays growing, then it'll be the size of the earth in just under 500 million years. Question: have you kept the timelessness aspect? I didn't see anything about that.

[Jorgumander]

By these rules, a demiplane would be the size of Pluto in about 4,400 years. So, that's a pretty good estimate. If it stays growing, then it'll be the size of the earth in just under 500 million years. Question: have you kept the timelessness aspect? I didn't see anything about that.


HAHA! A Pluto-sized plane sounds pretty cool!

As to the Timelessness. Is that referring to some planes time passes slowly or not at all? I'm going to say that the Permanent version, time passes either normally, or perhaps let the caster decide on speeding it up or slowing it down. Thoughts?

And huge sizes aside, is there any reason to NOT let the plane keep growing?

[The_Jette]

HAHA! A Pluto-sized plane sounds pretty cool!

As to the Timelessness. Is that referring to some planes time passes slowly or not at all? I'm going to say that the Permanent version, time passes either normally, or perhaps let the caster decide on speeding it up or slowing it down. Thoughts?

And huge sizes aside, is there any reason to NOT let the plane keep growing?

I was definitely not saying there was a problem with letting the plane continuing to grow. The Gods may end up having a problem with that, though. You know, "stupid mortals thinking they can create their own plane of existence... *grumble, grumble, grumble* THAT'S OUR JOB!"

As for the difference in time, that's all up to you. I thought having a timeless plane sounded pretty cool. At the end of their adventures, the heroes have a paradise to retire to, and spend eternity in. Although, it does lend itself to being taken advantage of when players start thinking about things like selling their soul to a demon in exchange for power, with the caveat that the demon can only collect once they're dead. The player then retires to paradise for eternity...

[Jorgumander]

I was definitely not saying there was a problem with letting the plane continuing to grow. The Gods may end up having a problem with that, though. You know, "stupid mortals thinking they can create their own plane of existence... *grumble, grumble, grumble* THAT'S OUR JOB!"

As for the difference in time, that's all up to you. I thought having a timeless plane sounded pretty cool. At the end of their adventures, the heroes have a paradise to retire to, and spend eternity in. Although, it does lend itself to being taken advantage of when players start thinking about things like selling their soul to a demon in exchange for power, with the caveat that the demon can only collect once they're dead. The player then retires to paradise for eternity...

HAHA! I don't know if that will be a problem for MY players. But it's certainly something to consider. Their ultimate goal is going to be immortality (Ambrosia of the Gods sort of goal). I won't introduce soul selling. I like the idea of a plane that time passes very slowly on though. Hmmm...