Versatile Spellcaster on a "theurge" Build (Ultimate Magus, Mystic Theurge, etc.)

[Ignimortis]

Basically, the title. I've tried searching for such a thread, but found only "higher-level slots than possible" shenanigans.
One of my players is building a Sorcerer/Wizard/Ultimate magus.
Versatile Spellcaster, as it goes by RAW, would allow such a build to cast any spell he knows spontaneously, and considering the sheer amount of spell slots UM gets, it could do it for quite a while (e.g. at level 8 he could cast 3 4th level spells if he needed to, which is pretty much the same as the same-level singleclassed caster, and without limitations on either spells known (sorc) or having them prepared (wiz)).
My general idea of RAI is that it's only for sorcerer spells and thus is limited by the sorcerer spell list, disabling any kind of possible "scribe a level 5 spell into the spellbook, cast it three levels earlier using VS and abundant level 4 slots" thing, which negates most of the idea of the Ultimate Magus - slow the progression down for endurance and versatility.
However, I feel that this might be a rather conservative and limiting decision on my part, so I'm asking for outside input.

[weckar]

which negates most of the idea of the Ultimate Magus - slow the progression down for endurance and versatility. Before anything else, where do you get the idea that this is the 'idea'?

[Ignimortis]

Before anything else, where do you get the idea that this is the 'idea'?

Well, that's the design behind theurgic prestige classes? Get lots of spells, but slower and with less punch (CL) than usually. It seems reasonable.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, that's the design behind theurgic prestige classes? Get lots of spells, but slower and with less punch (CL) than usually. It seems reasonable.

It may be the intent (or not, i don't know), but that's not really how it works in 3.5.
In practice the real trade off for theurging is not being able to take another prestige class. It also costs you feats to get you CL back on par (Practiced Spellcaster) - feats that you can't use on other stuff.

The extreme end of the example would be a PrC like Incantatrix - you can either get cleric spells in addition to your wizards spells or you can get free metamagic.
But it applies to pretty much all the good caster PrCs. They all offer you abilities that are generally worth more than dual progression in 2 caster classes.

The same is not quite true for mundanes and classes like Unseen Seer, but that's mostly because getting spellcasting is the most powerful option you can add to a build that doesn't already have it.

In the case of UM + VS you're sacrificing pretty much all your lower-level slots for those 3 4th level spells. Versatile Spellcaster has its uses, but efficient it is not.

[Rebel7284]

Seems like a reasonable houserule. I don't think they intended to make all prepared casters into spontaneous casters with just one feat when Versatile Spellcaster was printed. Ultimate Magus is fairly powerful as far as dual progression classes as well due to actually having good class features.

[Psyren]

Before anything else, where do you get the idea that this is the 'idea'?

The class entry explicitly states this was the intended result. WotC is however not great at optimization. CM 79:


Although you'll always lag behind a single-classed arcane caster in terms of sheer power—your highest-level spells are a level or two lower than those of such a character—your caster level keeps up reasonably well (meaning your fireball is just about as good as his). Also, your array of spells can last up to twice as long in an adventure as that of a single-classed character, and you have a few tricks up your sleeve that he can't easily match.

[Troacctid]

There is a rule that explicitly prevents you from using one class's spell slots to spontaneously cast another class's spells. It's in the Rules Compendium somewhere, I'm AFB.

[Ignimortis]

There is a rule that explicitly prevents you from using one class's spell slots to spontaneously cast another class's spells. It's in the Rules Compendium somewhere, I'm AFB.

Thank you, I'm gonna check it out, I've got that book.

Edit: I found that rule (pg. 139, Spontaneous Casting) and it's worded like this:

A multiclass spellcaster can’t cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class.
That doesn't seem applicable here, because the feat says:

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.
Thank you anyway, although I'm unsure whether it's that different. Does the "spells known" separation come in there somewhere?

[Dagroth]

There is a rule that explicitly prevents you from using one class's spell slots to spontaneously cast another class's spells. It's in the Rules Compendium somewhere, I'm AFB.

I seem to remember a PrC that specifically allows this, but I can't remember it and don't feel like digging through all my books.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I seem to remember a PrC that specifically allows this, but I can't remember it and don't feel like digging through all my books.

Geomancer lets you cast one classes spells in the slots of the other. It also allows you to either ability score for save DCs, bonus spells and so on.
You probably don't remember it because it's crap. It needs both arcane & divine casting but progresses only one, and the class features aren't anything to write home about either.

[Troacctid]

Thank you, I'm gonna check it out, I've got that book.

Edit: I found that rule (pg. 139, Spontaneous Casting) and it's worded like this:

That doesn't seem applicable here, because the feat says:

Thank you anyway, although I'm unsure whether it's that different. Does the "spells known" separation come in there somewhere?
Sooo, while you could teeechnically read the rules such that the RC rule doesn't apply in this situation, it also has the side effect of applying to, like, just any old Sorcerer who is multiclassed with another spellcasting class, because if you look at the description of their spellcasting ability, it uses basically the same wording as Versatile Spellcaster?

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
[...]
He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.
So, like, no matter how you read it, Versatile Spellcaster isn't granting you any special ability to spontaneously cast Wizard spells out of Sorcerer slots, because either it doesn't work, or it works even without Versatile Spellcaster and you don't need the feat.

[Dagroth]

So, by that text I could go Mystic Ranger/Sorcerer and cast Ranger spells with my Sorcerer spell slots & CL?

RAW can be so stupid.

Wait! Even better! One level of Warmage, one level of Beguiler and one level of Dread Necro.... then 17 levels of Sorcerer!

Or drop Warmage if you don't care about blasting... you can always get some attack spells with the spells you learn as a Sorcerer.

[Troacctid]

So, by that text I could go Mystic Ranger/Sorcerer and cast Ranger spells with my Sorcerer spell slots & CL?

RAW can be so stupid.

Wait! Even better! One level of Warmage, one level of Beguiler and one level of Dread Necro.... then 17 levels of Sorcerer!

Or drop Warmage if you don't care about blasting... you can always get some attack spells with the spells you learn as a Sorcerer.
Well. No. Because that's only if you take an interpretation that is unusually permissive, dysfunctional, and against the intent of the rules, when there is a perfectly good alternative interpretation right there that has none of those problems.

Also, casting 1st level Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer spells seems worse than just having 9th level Sorcerer spells.

[ATHATH]

Geomancer lets you cast one classes spells in the slots of the other.
Reread Spell Versatility; I think you're interpreting it wrong.

Spell Versatility: At 1st level, the geomancer learns to blend divine and arcane magic. He still acquires and prepares his spells in the normal manner for his individual spellcasting classes. When he casts them, however, he can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes to gain the maximum possible advantage for any spell with a spell level equal to or less than his spell versatility score. Thus, as a 4th-level geomancer, he can cast any of his 3rd-level or lower sorcerer/wizard spells with no chance of arcane spell failure from armor. (The druidic prohibition against metal armor still applies to druid/geomancers, however, since this stricture stems from a spiritual oath rather than a practical limitation.) The geomancer may use his Wisdom modifier to set the save DC for arcane spells, or his Charisma or Intelligence modifier (whichever he would normally use for arcane spells) to set the save DC for divine spells. If a spell requires either an arcane material component or a divine focus, he may use either. A cleric/geomancer who also has levels of wizard, sorcerer, or bard can spontaneously convert any prepared arcane or divine spell (except a domain spell) of an appropriate level into a cure or inflict spell of equal or lower level, though he must be capable of casting the latter as a cleric.

[Dagroth]

Well. No. Because that's only if you take an interpretation that is unusually permissive, dysfunctional, and against the intent of the rules, when there is a perfectly good alternative interpretation right there that has none of those problems.

Also, casting 1st level Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer spells seems worse than just having 9th level Sorcerer spells.

In the Description of the Warmage, it says: "This vigorous drilling instills the spells in a warmage’s unconscious mind, so that as he grows in power later in life, those spells become available for his use without his needing a spellbook."

For Beguilers, it says: "When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler’s spell list."

Dread Necromancers' language is different: "When a dread necromancer gains access to a new level of spells, she automatically knows all the spells for that level given on the dread necromancer’s spell list."

Unfortunately, in the crunch for Warmage, it says this: "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list."

So, I guess the only one it works with by RAW is Beguiler.

So Beguiler 1, Sorcerer 19. You've got all the spell knowledge of a Sorcerer and of a Beguiler!

See? RAW is dumb.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Reread Spell Versatility; I think you're interpreting it wrong.

Huh, seems i've mixed it up with something else then.
No idea what class it could be then.

[VisitingDaGulag]

Wait, what's so imbalanced about a theurge purposely nerfing himself into giving up the one thing he kind of has (double x1.5 spell slots) to gain what he would otherwise have if he didn't thuerge (faster casting progression, aka higher level spell slots earlier)?

Blowing 2 6th level spells to get 1 7th level hurts. If you did it for every level (so you could maximize your x+1 spell level slots without having 0 or 1 spells available of a certain level), you'd half all your spell slots from 0 to x. VS is nice and all, but it's not that good.

[Crake]

Technically, the rules compendium rule is the general rule for spellcasters, while versatile spellcaster is a specific rule, which lets you cast "any spell you know", without any limiter saying you cannot cast from another class's list, so you can use any slot to cast any spell you know.

Keep in mind, clerics and druids do not know any spells by the "known spells" definition. By core, only bards, wizards and sorcerers know any spells. This could be reasonably expanded by a DM to include archivists, favoured souls and other similar casters, despite the fact that the "known spells" clause explicitly states "arcane casters".

[ayvango]

However, I feel that this might be a rather conservative and limiting decision on my part, so I'm asking for outside input.
We consider the feat RAW as ultimately broken and patched it with house rules.

1. You should sacrifice slots from the same spellcasting class (e.g. 1st level wizard slot + 1st level druid slots are prohibited, only two 1st level wizard or two 1st level druid are allowed).

2. The spell you cast should belongs to the same spellcasting class (e.g. you could not expend 2 druids slots to get wizard spell, only druids)

3. You should already be able to cast desired spell spontaneously. (e.g. druid could expend two 2nd level slots to get Summon Nature Ally III, and it can not cast any other spell, since he could cast spontaneously only this one)

[Crake]

We consider the feat RAW as ultimately broken and patched it with house rules.

1. You should sacrifice slots from the same spellcasting class (e.g. 1st level wizard slot + 1st level druid slots are prohibited, only two 1st level wizard or two 1st level druid are allowed).

2. The spell you cast should belongs to the same spellcasting class (e.g. you could not expend 2 druids slots to get wizard spell, only druids)

3. You should already be able to cast desired spell spontaneously. (e.g. druid could expend two 2nd level slots to get Summon Nature Ally III, and it can not cast any other spell, since he could cast spontaneously only this one)

Druids don't actually know any spells though, so they would get literally no use out of the feat.

[ayvango]

Druids don't actually know any spells though, so they would get literally no use out of the feat.
Spell known is another thing we patched. The greatest trouble the definition gives to wizards, whom relies on external knowledge in the spellbooks.

[Troacctid]

Technically, the rules compendium rule is the general rule for spellcasters, while versatile spellcaster is a specific rule, which lets you cast "any spell you know", without any limiter saying you cannot cast from another class's list, so you can use any slot to cast any spell you know.
That's the same wording used by the Sorcerer's normal spellcasting feature. If you take that interpretation, then you can already cast off-class spells, no feat needed.

[Gulian]

Hello! Player in question here, with the theurge built character.

Just wanted to post what me and the DM agreed upon eventually, and a bit more context to the whole situation.

So, we agreed that I can cast any spell I either know as a Sorcerer or have prepared in any wizard slot, using Versatile Spellcaster. In addition, because doing it this way means I can't make use of higher level spellslots normally, we added an additional effect, where I can spontaneously produce any spell I know (as in from either wizard or sorcerer) INT mod times per day. Though because we have a homerule that 0 level spells can be cast at-will as long as you know, or have prepared them, this means I can't make use of them to produce 1st level spells.

We also gave Ultimate Magus a buff(?) in the form of making it so that both my wizard and sorcerer levels are at -2 to my HD (initially I just thought that if I used the RAW effect of Practiced Spellcaster on the spellcaster level progression of UM, it would lose the flavor of "unifying the two methods of magic"). So this means I'll be able to match the other casters in the group with spell level about 4 times per day, 5 times closer to our endgame. Other things I was allowed was casting off of my intellect for both classes in exchange for a feat.

In my party I'll have a:

Cloistered Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor, plays a support character in general. At higher levels he's probably going to keep healing and buffing his allies, and also demolishing undead.

A Druid with two nerfs, in that they have no animal companions and Natural Spell is banned. The player also wants to generally do battle control and also blasting. She's got a free Energy Substitution bypassing prerequisites and will probably go into Born of Three Thunders. Additionally, we have a homebrewed Stormlord prestige class that takes inspiration from the alternative druid class (I think it was Dragon Magazine, not sure though) which should improve her blasting capabilities at the cost of a slower wild shape progression.

A Warblade with a few alterations, like a fast reflex save progression and INT to initiative instead of reflex saves. Not sure about his prestige class or how he's going to be towards level 10, but so far he's been the one to pull us through the hardest encounters. Most non-spellcasting prestige classes have been changed a bit so that they can be taken about 2 levels earlier, but I'm not sure if he'll go into one or not.

A Duskblade with Shield included into his spell list, so he can easily qualify for Abjurant Champion, which he's doing at about level 5. He'll be the sturdiest character of the group due to his AC, and I believe the DM planned to buff Duskblades a bit, because it does seem like he might be a bit behind the warblade, but I don't know the details.

Also have a Swordsage, which have been also altered slightly to key off of charisma and have been given a Full BAB progression.

My build has a Keen Intellect in there, which doesn't do much for me due to 3 good will save progression classes besides making me better at some skills and also being very flavorful for the character, and I plan to take Spell Focus (Evocation), which we've modified to grant some extra damage to spells based on caster level/spell level, and do a little bit of blasting when in combat, but I'm generally gearing up to be the swiss army knife of the group, though I won't be doing much summoning unless absolutely necesarry, since I'm sure the druid will be able to handle that just fine.

Bottom line is, I don't think we're entirely sure how it will turn out, but there was some concern that being a theurge build would make me lag behind. But it's difficult to say, really.