3/20/17 Unearthed Arcana

[DracoKnight]

So last week we got the mystic. Do we think that Psionic Archetypes is this week? They mentioned at least one Fighter subclass that's gonna be called the Sohei.

If not those, what do we think it'll be this week. When I see a link to the article, I'll put it here.

[DizzyWood]

Wow you are on the ball this AM! Must have had you coffee and bran muffin today!

[Ferrin33]

So last week we got the mystic. Do we think that Psionic Archetypes is this week? They mentioned at least one Fighter subclass that's gonna be called the Sohei.

If not those, what do we think it'll be this week. When I see a link to the article, I'll put it here.

I highly doubt they will show those archetypes before even finishing the Mystic itself.

[joaber]

I bet that UA will not be about classes.

[DizzyWood]

Ya they just gave us a huge class to digest, so I assume it will be something more like traps this week. Useful but not to flashy or deep. Maybe crafting?

[Trum4n1208]

I'm hoping for crafting or spells.

[Foxhound438]

feats... feats... feats... Feats. Feats. *actively pounding fists on desk* FEATS! FEATS! FEATS!

[jaappleton]

After the Mystic I totally forgot about other UA.

I'm STILL going over the Mystic. No idea what to expect. I'm thinking spells.

[JobsforFun]

feats... feats... feats... Feats. Feats. *actively pounding fists on desk* FEATS! FEATS! FEATS!

I'm with ya! FEATS!

[jaappleton]

Mearls just told me there is an article for later this morning. Reminder, they're in Washington, so determine timing accordingly.

So there IS something today.

[JobsforFun]

Mearls just told me there is an article for later this morning. Reminder, they're in Washington, so determine timing accordingly.

So there IS something today.

I am hoping for either feats or something for the fighter since my next character is a fighter ;). but I am guessing it is going to be some sort of trap thing or something along those lines.

[jaappleton]

I am hoping for either feats or something for the fighter since my next character is a fighter ;). but I am guessing it is going to be some sort of trap thing or something along those lines.

D&D has enough trap options already!

#Zing

[Hrugner]

I'll put forward detailed overland travel once again. In second place integrating character backgrounds into story. and in third intended limitations on the world narrative impact of temporarily created items, polymorph effects and illusions.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I'll put forward detailed overland travel once again. In second place integrating character backgrounds into story. and in third intended limitations on the world narrative impact of temporarily created items, polymorph effects and illusions.

Sounds boring. I say CRAFTING RULES!.

[Arenabait]

I just want spells to be honest, although I certainly wouldn't complain about getting new feat options or new equipment.

[jaappleton]

I just want spells to be honest, although I certainly wouldn't complain about getting new feat options or new equipment.

New magic items sounds pretty darn sweet.

[tkuremento]

Personally I really would like it to be feats but I also kind of want something related to equipment or crafting.

[Dr.Samurai]

Well, I admit this is just a rumor but... I heard they were developing fully fleshed out working languages for each playable race as well as any monster in the MM or Volo's guide that is capable of language and civilization. And they're releasing them before April so...

[jaappleton]

Wizard revisited

Theurgy & War Mage

[Gryndle]

eh its wizard. theurge rewrite and war magic archetype

[Arenabait]

Well, I admit this is just a rumor but... I heard they were developing fully fleshed out working languages for each playable race as well as any monster in the MM or Volo's guide that is capable of language and civilization. And they're releasing them before April so...

That's pretty exciting, but it sounds kind of far fetched to be honest. UA hasn't ever been too big on fluff based stuff. It's be sweet if it was true though!

[Arenabait]

eh its wizard. theurge rewrite and war magic archetype

Oh. Ten Characters

[VoxRationis]

@Dr. Samurai: I would be ecstatic if such a thing were true, but I doubt it very highly. Developing separate constructed languages for each intelligent species in the game would be a mountain of work.

[jaappleton]

Am I missing something?

Theurgy doesn't seem different. And Tempest Theurge is still OP as hell.

[Dr.Samurai]

I swear that this (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/MJ320UAWizardVF2017.pdf) is the actual link and I'm not trolling you guys this week...

[Trum4n1208]

Just eye-balling them, but I can't say either option really tickles my fancy. I wasn't huge on the flavor of Theurgy Wizard, and War Mage just seems okay to me. Having said that, that judgment is based off of a glance, and not an in-depth investigation.

[jaappleton]

War is pretty solid all around. Once per short rest they can upcast damaging spells. They're straight up better than Evokers in every aspect, if you ask me: They get a bonus to Initiative so they can nuke faster, can boost their damage, bonuses when Concentrating...

They're all about making things explode. And they do it well. I wouldn't call them OP, but they're strong.

[Llama513]

War mage looks like a lot of fun, and looks pretty well balanced, theurgy is still busted

[jaappleton]

War mage looks like a lot of fun, and looms pretty well balanced, theurogy is still busted

Agreed. Theurge should just be scrapped, IMO.

[Auramis]

The Theurgy tradition has appeared in Unearthed Arcana before, but this time we’d like to gather playtest feedback on it.

In case anyone is confused as to why it looks the same... that's because it is. They're re-releasing it for the sake of getting player feedback on it. For all intents and purposes, War is the only new thing this UA.

I know that'll bother some people, but I'll implore everyone to offer Wizards some constructive feedback on the archetype. It's nice to see them wanting to explore it more.

[solidork]

You know, I never considered this, but can you stack the +2 save DC from Channel Divnity: Divine Arcana? If it was a spell it 100% wouldn't stack.

War magic is pretty cool. I especially like the design of the reaction. That template could go on any number of caster subclasses. Would people be annoyed if they did make subsequent abilities that were similar in other classes? Most of my design experience comes from Magic: the Gathering, where you would never put aside such a useful tool just because it's been done before.

[Llama513]

In case anyone is confused as to why it looks the same... that's because it is. They're re-releasing it for the sake of getting player feedback on it. For all intents and purposes, War is the only new thing this UA.

I know that'll bother some people, but I'll implore everyone to offer Wizards some constructive feedback on the archetype. It's nice to see them wanting to explore it more.

Oh that explains things, but personally, I don't like theurgy it is just too powerful of a combination, what they should/could do is take a look back at geomancer and go for something like that

[KorvinStarmast]

Arcane Acolyte
At 6th level, you gain your chosen domain’s 1st- level benefits. However, you do not gain any weapon or armor proficiencies from the domain.

Does that mean that you get the domain spells added to your spell book?

[jaappleton]

Does that mean that you get the domain spells added to your spell book?

No that's addressed in another part of the Theurge.

[DivisibleByZero]

Does that mean that you get the domain spells added to your spell book?

No, it means that you gain the Cleric's Domain ability of said level.
The Domain spells are explained under Arcane Initiate.

[jaappleton]

I played a Theurge when it was released. Tempest Domain.

It was IMMENSELY overpowered. Maximizing Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning destroyed encounters before they could ever happen. Its disturbingly broken with little sense of balance, to be honest.

Even at higher levels, things like Corona of Light (Light Cleric) compared with Sunbeam are ridiculous.

And the fact that Theurge gets Cleric capstones before Clerics do is simply insulting.

Its just a poorly written archetype. For a blend of Arcane and Divine, the new Favored Soul does it better.

[Deleted]

I swear that this (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/MJ320UAWizardVF2017.pdf) is the actual link and I'm not trolling you guys this week...

Well both Theruge and War are boinked.

I mean... The Fighter has to wait to level 9 to reroll a save (1/ long rest and sucks in actual use) but the War Wizard can, reaction at will, gain +2 AC/+4 Save... +4 to a save is better than having advantage. Now yes, a Fighter's save can go against anything (though that doesn't really help), but the Wizard's bonus helps with their one weak point HP. Damn WotC.

The Theruge Wizard gets a level 17 feature 3 level earlier than a cleric? Gets to be better at casting cleric spells than the cleric? Fiddly bonuses are fiddly.

I love the idea of multiclassing via subclasses to make new "classes" or whatever but come on, put some heart into it.


====


I really would like to see the Wizard broken up into specific classes and given more class features that revolve around their fluff and have spell school limitations.

You can keep the "build your own" Wizard as general class.

Specific Wizards
Conjurer
Evoker
Transmuter
Dread Necromancer
Beguiler
Theruge


Then give each of these subclasses.

Some conjurers focus on items while others focus on calling outsiders.

Specific evokers focus on elemental spells and some pure magical damage (force damage/effects).

Some Beguilers focus on illusions while others focus on enchantments.


==Edit===


No that's addressed in another part of the Theurge.


Fair Warning: It says you choose a cleric domain at level 2 and you gain that domain. The level 1 feature is part of that initial domain choice. The fact that they later say no, doesn't change the fact that the initial ability gave it to you. People will try to argue this. I don't agree with it, but I know players well enough.


The problem comes from the fact that in the class feature description for the cleric, Domain is a singular feature and not split up into Domain, Domain First Level Feature, Domain Other First Level Feature.

[KorvinStarmast]

I played a Theurge when it was released. Tempest Domain.

It was IMMENSELY overpowered. Maximizing Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning destroyed encounters before they could ever happen. Its disturbingly broken with little sense of balance, to be honest. As usual, how many encounters were you having per day?

I have a hard time buying anything in 5e as immensely overpowered, though the previous mage UA with the "change the enemy's save ability" and "change damage type" is certainly not within the limits of the published classes.

[Dr.Samurai]

Those are not benefits of the domain you picked though. Those are things that clerics get in general.

[KorvinStarmast]

Those are not benefits of the domain you picked though. Those are things that clerics get in general. OK, then What Are the First Level Benefits of The Domain we are talking about here.

Are you talking about things like "Disciple of Life" as the first level domain benefit?

[jaappleton]

OK, then What Are the First Level Benefits of The Domain we are talking about here.

Are you talking about things like "Disciple of Life" as the first level domain benefit?

Yes. That'd be its first level benefit.

[Deleted]

No that's addressed in another part of the Theurge.


OK, let's walk the dog on this.
Here's what a cleric gets at first level:

So if I took Tempest, obviously not getting the armor and weapons profs, but I do get Med Armor and Shield Proficiency of the generic cleric (Already have simple weapons).
Get two new skills
Get three new cantrips (Cleric only)
Ritual casting: already have
Focus: I can now use a holy symbol as focus.

That's how I read it.

The issue that comes up is...

Cleric's first level features are "Spell Casting" and "Divine Domain"

You gain within the Cleric's Divine Domain you gain bonus spells, bonus prof, and bonus feature. The cleric's class doesn't separate these as a separate feature but you get all lumped into one feature.

The Theruge is just poorly worded but you will get players saying that, by RAW, they get everything under Divine Domain because it's one feature and not separate features. They wouldn't be wrong, but I would still say no.

We have to base this off the Cleric because it's the only player option we have that talks about domains and what spells you get from said domains.

Basically, it's poorly worded in a way that I think WotC just forgot and didn't think to check if Divine Domain was one feature or not.

[solidork]

I really would like to see the Wizard broken up into specific classes and given more class features that revolve around their fluff and have spell school limitations.

You can keep the "build your own" Wizard as general class.


The only generic abilities they get are at 1, 18 and 20 though. You could give them some flavorful ribbons on levels where all they get is a new level of spell, but you could probably add those to all of the various subclasses.

The thing that somewhat surprised me about the Theurge is that it gets multiple channel divinities that refresh on a short rest like the Cleric does.

[KorvinStarmast]

The issue that comes up is...

Cleric's first level features are "Spell Casting" and "Divine Domain"
Thank you for your reply. I had not properly grokked the term and jaapleton was kind enough to help me clear it up. It now makes more sense.

[Deleted]

The only generic abilities they get are at 1, 18 and 20 though. You could give them some flavorful ribbons on levels where all they get is a new level of spell, but you could probably add those to all of the various subclasses.

The thing that somewhat surprised me about the Theurge is that it gets multiple channel divinities that refresh on a short rest like the Cleric does.

....

The class itself is generic due to spell casting and not getting many specific class features.

The wizard, in core 5e, is the most generalist class there is.

Edit====

Thank you for your reply. I had not properly grokked the term and jaapleton was kind enough to help me clear it up. It now makes more sense.

YW.

WotC seem to have rushed this and didn't look at their own class features they were referencing.

[Sir cryosin]

Am I the only one who thinks giving Wizards access to cleric spells is a it's just down right wrong. I mean how can you give the Wizards access to the cleric spells and then just s*** all over the f****** sorcerer.

[Kileonhardt]

The issue that comes up is...

Cleric's first level features are "Spell Casting" and "Divine Domain"

You gain within the Cleric's Divine Domain you gain bonus spells, bonus prof, and bonus feature. The cleric's class doesn't separate these as a separate feature but you get all lumped into one feature.

The Theruge is just poorly worded but you will get players saying that, by RAW, they get everything under Divine Domain because it's one feature and not separate features. They wouldn't be wrong, but I would still say no.

We have to base this off the Cleric because it's the only player option we have that talks about domains and what spells you get from said domains.

Basically, it's poorly worded in a way that I think WotC just forgot and didn't think to check if Divine Domain was one feature or not.

Emphasis being on "Divine Domain." You're not gaining Divine Domain as a Theurgy Wizard, you're choosing which domain you belong to and then your other Theurgy features give you things based on that. It's not poorly worded it's just a case of people are always willing to try to twist things to their advantage.

[DivisibleByZero]

Am I the only one who thinks giving Wizards access to cleric spells is a it's just down right wrong. I mean how can you give the Wizards access to the cleric spells and then just s*** all over the f****** sorcerer.

Because Favored Soul?

[Sir cryosin]

Because Favored Soul?

I like the Sorceress favored soul what I don't like about it though is that it doesn't increase the number of spells they can know. It just increases the number of choices you have to make. This wizard is straight up giving you the whole entire cleric list. You spent all your spells no learning the cleric spells and then you could just go down to the local library and copy wizard spells from Wizard books into your wizard book. It's f****** stupid. They need to give up on the cleric wizard you can't do anything with those two without it being too motherfukin Op.

[Kileonhardt]

I like the Sorceress favored soul what I don't like about it though is that it doesn't increase the number of spells they can know. It just increases the number of choices you have to make. This wizard is straight up giving you the whole entire cleric list. You spent all your spells no learning the cleric spells and then you could just go down to the local library and copy wizard spells from Wizard books into your wizard book. It's f****** stupid. They need to give up on the cleric wizard you can't do anything with those two without it being too motherfukin Op.

While I've played the new FS to 11 and find it lackluster I did find the old one to be way too good. As far as the Wizard is concerned I agree they don't need to be given the Cleric table as well seeing as if you plan a party around one Wizard going Theurgy with another being anything else then the Theurgy Wizard can spend all spell learning on Cleric while paying the other to teach them Wizard spells. It can get out of hand fairly quickly.

[Mr. E]

The War Mage looks like a lot of fun conceptually, as a Sun Tzu/Grand Admiral Thrawn kind of a character, using his/her superior intellect over mere brute strength. The INT bonus to initiative is my favourite thing flavour-wise, and I don't believe it is terribly OP either?

[Saggo]

I find it odd that War Mage only directly contributes to multi-target save spells. No single-target or attack roll spells. Not really living up to the evocation of blending evocation and abjuration.

[KorvinStarmast]

Am I the only one who thinks giving Wizards access to cleric spells is a it's just down right wrong. I mean how can you give the Wizards access to the cleric spells and then just s*** all over the f****** sorcerer. I don't get how any of that harms the sorcerer. Care to explain?

[Llama513]

I really want to run a mountain dwarf war mage

[Deleted]

Emphasis being on "Divine Domain." You're not gaining Divine Domain as a Theurgy Wizard, you're choosing which domain you belong to and then your other Theurgy features give you things based on that. It's not poorly worded it's just a case of people are always willing to try to twist things to their advantage.

The problem is that Divine Domain is one class feature and the only thing we have to base all this off from is that one class feature... Which isn't three class features.




Am I the only one who thinks giving Wizards access to cleric spells is a it's just down right wrong. I mean how can you give the Wizards access to the cleric spells and then just s*** all over the f****** sorcerer.


This isn't even the only time they crapped on the sorcerer with UA. The metamagic wizard was depressing.

[Arkhios]

Not sure if it was answered yet, but I believe the only real changes in Theurgy are that the domain spells are actually considered wizard spells for you (meaning you cast them with Int, not Wis, as was argued over when Theurge was first introduced). The other thing might be, though I might as well remember wrong, is that they get the Domain Channel feature as well.

It seems that they did little to change it because they didn't have a proper survey back when Theurge was first introduced, and would want that covered now.

That said, I agree on the War Magic. It seems really balanced, and provides an interesting alternative for Bladesinger (which I really don't like myself).

[DivisibleByZero]

I find it odd that War Mage only directly contributes to multi-target save spells. No single-target or attack roll spells. Not really living up to the evocation of blending evocation and abjuration.

It makes sense.
A War Wizard would be a wizard who specializes in waging war. War is waged against armies, not against single enemies.

[Kileonhardt]

The problem is that Divine Domain is one class feature and the only thing we have to base all this off from is that one class feature... Which isn't three class features.

I don't see what's so hard to understand. Divine Inspiration lets you pick a domain dependent on your deity. This is not a Divine Domain. Arcane Initiate then gives you the ability to take Cleric spells from the corresponding Cleric Divine Domain list. This is still not Theurgy having Divine Domain. The same is done for all Theurgy abilities, you take from the corresponding Cleric Domain choice but still do not gain Divine Domain. It's cut and dry.

[Sir cryosin]

I don't get how any of that harms the sorcerer. Care to explain?

The sorcerer only get 15 spell where the thaurgy wizard can and most likely will have most of the cleric spell list and all of Wizards spell list. It would take work from the DM to keep the wizard not getting access to more spells.

[Dr.Samurai]

The problem is that Divine Domain is one class feature and the only thing we have to base all this off from is that one class feature... Which isn't three class features.
I'm having trouble seeing the source of confusion.

At 2nd level you choose a domain that matches your god.

At level 6, you gain the 1st level benefits of that domain.

That tells me to go to the cleric section, look up the appropriate domain, and grab the first level feature granted by that domain, sans proficiencies in weapons or armor.

Admittedly, they could be a little clearer in directing you toward the cleric class I guess. But I'm not seeing where Divine Domain even comes into play here to be honest. It isn't referenced that I can see.

[Arkhios]

The sorcerer only get 15 spell where the thaurgy wizard can and most likely will have most of the cleric spell list and all of Wizards spell list. It would take work from the DM to keep the wizard not getting access to more spells.

Having access to two lists doesn't exactly mean that wizard could cast all of them. Besides, a Theurge can only know a limited number of cleric spells, at the cost of replacing their known wizard spells for them. A Theurge will never have any more spells than a non-theurge wizard would have. They still know the same basic amount of spells. They're just taken from two lists, and they can have at most 20 spells from cleric list by replacing spells (one spell per level) they already know, while as a wizard even a theurge can still learn more spells from scrolls and books only if they are from wizard's list.

[DivisibleByZero]

The sorcerer only get 15 spell where the thaurgy wizard can and most likely will have most of the cleric spell list and all of Wizards spell list. It would take work from the DM to keep the wizard not getting access to more spells.

They cannot learn every Cleric spell. They won't even have most of it.

The Theurge can get 2 Cleric spells per level, and can only get those after their Domain spells are already in their book, so it will certainly be less than that. The two Domain spells can be their first two upon gaining a new spell level, and their next two for the following level can be any Cleric spell.
This means that, if they choose domain spells at level 1, they c an choose from the Cleric list at level 2. If they choose Domain spells at level 3, they can choose Cleric spells at level 4, and so on. But in so doing, they would be missing what could be considered pivotal and potentially essential Wizard spells in the process, until such time as the DM allows them to find scrolls and such.
They become at the mercy of the DM for thier normal Wizardry if they want to get to choose from the Cleric list.
They cannot simply find a Cleric spell and add it to their spellbook like they can with other Wizard spells.

[Kileonhardt]

They cannot learn every Cleric spell. They won't even have most of it.

The Theurge can get 2 Cleric spells per level, and can only get those after their Domain spells are already in their book, so it will certainly be less than that. The two Domain spells can be their first two upon gaining a new spell level, and their next two for the following level can be any Cleric spell.
This means that, if they choose domain spells at level 1, they c an choose from the Cleric list at level 2. If they choose Domain spells at level 3, they can choose Cleric spells at level 4, and so on.
They cannot simply find a Cleric spell and add it to their spellbook like they can with other Wizard spells.

But they can learn those Cleric spells for their levels and then spend their downtime learning Wizard spells to vastly increase their pool of knowledge. Which is even easier with another Wizard in the party who is willing to spend their own downtime creating said scrolls.


I'm having trouble seeing the source of confusion.

At 2nd level you choose a domain that matches your god.

At level 6, you gain the 1st level benefits of that domain.

That tells me to go to the cleric section, look up the appropriate domain, and grab the first level feature granted by that domain, sans proficiencies in weapons or armor.

Admittedly, they could be a little clearer in directing you toward the cleric class I guess. But I'm not seeing where Divine Domain even comes into play here to be honest. It isn't referenced that I can see.

And this here is the logical reasoning I was trying to explain. Well put Dr.Samurai.

[Deleted]

They cannot learn every Cleric spell. They won't even have most of it.

The Theurge can get 2 Cleric spells per level, and can only get those after their Domain spells are already in their book, so it will certainly be less than that. The two Domain spells can be their first two upon gaining a new spell level, and their next two for the following level can be any Cleric spell.
This means that, if they choose domain spells at level 1, they c an choose from the Cleric list at level 2. If they choose Domain spells at level 3, they can choose Cleric spells at level 4, and so on. But in so doing, they would be missing what could be considered pivotal and potentially essential Wizard spells in the process, until such time as the DM allows them to find scrolls and such.
They become at the mercy of the DM for thier normal Wizardry if they want to get to choose from the Cleric list.
They cannot simply find a Cleric spell and add it to their spellbook like they can with other Wizard spells.

You don't need all the Cleric spells, just the best ones.

[KorvinStarmast]

The sorcerer only get 15 spell where the thaurgy wizard can and most likely will have most of the cleric spell list and all of Wizards spell list. It would take work from the DM to keep the wizard not getting access to more spells.
I don't see a problem.

Firstly, the wizard already gets access to a boat load more spells than the Sorcerer does. In theory, a given wizard who found enough spells during the course of a campaign could have almost every spell in their spell book. The decision comes with "what do I prepare?" Adding a few clerical spells hardly changes that.

Secondly, there's a lot of overlap between classes with spells on lists. Please see the spell lists at the end of the book. I'll offer one example: thunderwave. It's on the wizard list, and the Tempest domain list. The wizard hasn't actually increased the potential for that one. Cure light wounds, if they chose life domain? OK, added one more from many.

Lastly, the Sorcerer is a particular kind of at will caster whose class template is defined by having to make hard choices on which spells to choose. The Sorcerer is not, by class definition, a generalist.

[DivisibleByZero]

You don't need all the Cleric spells, just the best ones.

I was responding to this:
"the thaurgy wizard can and most likely will have most of the cleric spell list and all of Wizards spell list. It would take work from the DM to keep the wizard not getting access to more spells."

It wouldn't take any work from the DM at all. It would in point of fact take an extremely lenient DM to allow him access to those other spells.

[Saggo]

It makes sense.
A War Wizard would be a wizard who specializes in waging war. War is waged against armies, not against single enemies.

Sure, if it was Artillery Magic. War is more a bit more all encompassing than that. War Magic is also described a lot more generally than just a piece of armored field artillery. So I find it odd that the evocation boost is limited to strictly 2+ targets, given the opportunity a new archetype provides.

Mechanically, if you so happen to only be fighting one tough opponent (not exactly rare), you don't get any offensively boosting features until level 14 for only 7-10 damage and then you're limited to cantrips. That I do find boring for an offensive and defensive focused archetype.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sure, if it was Artillery Magic. War is more a bit more all encompassing than that. War Magic is also described a lot more generally than just a piece of armored field artillery. So I find it odd that the evocation boost is limited to strictly 2+ targets, given the opportunity a new archetype provides.

Mechanically, if you so happen to only be fighting one tough opponent (not exactly rare), you don't get any offensively boosting features until level 14 for only 7-10 damage and then you're limited to cantrips. That I do find boring for an offensive and defensive focused archetype. I think you are seeing another manifestation of bounded accuracy in action.

[Arkhios]

Sure, if it was Artillery Magic. War is more a bit more all encompassing than that. War Magic is also described a lot more generally than just a piece of armored field artillery. So I find it odd that the evocation boost is limited to strictly 2+ targets, given the opportunity a new archetype provides.

Mechanically, if you so happen to only be fighting one tough opponent (not exactly rare), you don't get any offensively boosting features until level 14 for only 7-10 damage and then you're limited to cantrips. That I do find boring for an offensive and defensive focused archetype.

I'm with DBZ on this. War, by definition means a fight that involves more than a small group against another small group. A war involves nations on both (or more) sides. Nations wage war with armies. Armies involve hundreds if not thousands of individuals. Blowing your precious spell slots for single target destructive spells is ridiculous when you could wreak havoc with spells of mass destruction.

[solidork]

Also, there was a 3.0 War Wizard prestige class that focused on improving AOE spells. That isn't a particularly good reason, but there is nonzero value in matching expectations.

Obviously you just include a friend in the fireball for that sweet, sweet 2d6.:smallcool:

[tkuremento]

I know UA isn't balanced for multiclassing but, how does Artificer 18/ War Magic Wizard 2 sound? Since Arcane Deflection doesn't mention concentration on spells, just a Constitution save, it would work even if you have to concentrate on your not-actually-spell things, right? And that +Int Mod to initiative is amazing. And again whilst UA MC isn't balanced, imagine this with Mystic since Mystic would likely want high Int as well.

Edit: DON'T FORGET TO FILL OUT THE MYSTIC SURVERY

[Saggo]

I'm with DBZ on this. War, by definition means a fight that involves more than a small group against another small group. A war involves nations on both (or more) sides. Nations wage war with armies. Armies involve hundreds if not thousands of individuals. Blowing your precious spell slots for single target destructive spells is ridiculous when you could wreak havoc with spells of mass destruction.

Army on army is rare. It doesn't encompass the reality of war.


Also, there was a 3.0 War Wizard prestige class that focused on improving AOE spells. That isn't a particularly good reason, but there is nonzero value in matching expectations.

Obviously you just include a friend in the fireball for that sweet, sweet 2d6.:smallcool:

Fair point. I'd buy it more if they weren't so liberal with the other prestige class adaptations.

It's just a missed opportunity.

[Matrix_Walker]

They cannot learn every Cleric spell. They won't even have most of it.

The Theurge can get 2 Cleric spells per level, and can only get those after their Domain spells are already in their book, so it will certainly be less than that. The two Domain spells can be their first two upon gaining a new spell level, and their next two for the following level can be any Cleric spell.
This means that, if they choose domain spells at level 1, they c an choose from the Cleric list at level 2. If they choose Domain spells at level 3, they can choose Cleric spells at level 4, and so on. But in so doing, they would be missing what could be considered pivotal and potentially essential Wizard spells in the process, until such time as the DM allows them to find scrolls and such.
They become at the mercy of the DM for thier normal Wizardry if they want to get to choose from the Cleric list.
They cannot simply find a Cleric spell and add it to their spellbook like they can with other Wizard spells.

I don't think this is correct. It is impossible for them to have their 9th level domain spells in their book until thy are sufficient level to cast them.

[Sigreid]

Having access to two lists doesn't exactly mean that wizard could cast all of them. Besides, a Theurge can only know a limited number of cleric spells, at the cost of replacing their known wizard spells for them. A Theurge will never have any more spells than a non-theurge wizard would have. They still know the same basic amount of spells. They're just taken from two lists, and they can have at most 20 spells from cleric list by replacing spells (one spell per level) they already know, while as a wizard even a theurge can still learn more spells from scrolls and books only if they are from wizard's list.

19 spells, you don't get to do the pick swap until level 2.

For War Mage I'm disappointed that they keep wanting to give initiative bonuses to everything. It's like they wan't to slant the game even more to a rocket tag style of play.

[Kane0]

I feel bad for the evoker. First lore, now the warmage stepping all over it.

[Sigreid]

I feel bad for the evoker. First lore, now the warmage stepping all over it.

I'd rather have the evoker's ability to drop a fireball at his own feat without harming his party at all than anything I saw in War Mage.

[Puh Laden]

I'd rather have the evoker's ability to drop a fireball at his own feat without harming his party at all than anything I saw in War Mage.

Yes, I agree that this hardly steps on the evoker's toes. I like both archetypes, but which one is better for the party depends on the campaign. If you're doing a dungeon crawl with small chambers, the evoker is much better for dropping 40 ft.-diameter fireballs.

[Temperjoke]

I had a long rant prepped for people complaining about the Theurge, but I decided to stay positive instead, since most of the arguments for either side have already been said.

Both of these classes are good for different types of campaigns than standard campaigns. The Theurge is good for campaigns that are more limited in how spellcasting works. They can fluff that the Gods are the source of their spells, which is why they have a mix of cleric and wizard spells. They're just trained differently than clerics or paladins.

[Deleted]

I had a long rant prepped for people complaining about the Theurge, but I decided to stay positive instead, since most of the arguments for either side have already been said.

Both of these classes are good for different types of campaigns than standard campaigns. The Theurge is good for campaigns that are more limited in how spellcasting works. They can fluff that the Gods are the source of their spells, which is why they have a mix of cleric and wizard spells. They're just trained differently than clerics or paladins.

Like the Mystic, I don't hate the idea or what it is when you look at it in a vacuum. But when you apply it to 5e... It doesn't hold up well.

I would love to see the Theurge be its own class. This is one of the many archetype that deserves it.

If the ranger, paladin, or bard can be its own class then the Theurge really should be too. There is just so much more it could be than a subclass throwoff of the wizard that makes the wizard even more broken.

Then you could have types of Theurges who get a weird mix of Domain Traditions or something like that.

[Sigreid]

Yes, I agree that this hardly steps on the evoker's toes. I like both archetypes, but which one is better for the party depends on the campaign. If you're doing a dungeon crawl with small chambers, the evoker is much better for dropping 40 ft.-diameter fireballs.

Or you have a few melee types that you just know are going to run screaming, face first at the opponents. :smallbiggrin:

[Nicrosil]

I like War Mage! I'm thinking Arcane Deflection should maybe be once per rest since it feels equivalent to shield, a 1st level spell. I'm not sure if Durable Magic should be limited; it seems very strong on paper, like Bladesong, which is twice a rest, but it's a much higher level ability and maybe the whole point of it is that it's unlimited... What do you guys think?

Theurge Wizard should be scrapped and either be its own class, or like the Arcane Domain: a subclass that adds a splash of cleric flavor to the wizard. I *may* allow certain Theurge wizards, but the domain would need to be something like Knowledge, the 14th level ability should be reworked, and ths signature spell would need to be chosen very carefully.

[Stan]

The sorcerer only get 15 spell where the thaurgy wizard can and most likely will have most of the cleric spell list and all of Wizards spell list. It would take work from the DM to keep the wizard not getting access to more spells.

They wouldn't get most of the cleric list, just one cleric spell/level. And then, you get only one free wizard spell as you level. How much of a cost this is depends on the availability of spellbooks on how much wealth/time there is for transcribing. It's still a pretty strong feature in terms of flexibility.

I like the overall concept. It just needs to have it's progression slowed down. For those of you who have played it, would changing the channeling recharge to a long rest be enough to tone it down?

How about something like this:
2nd Arcane Initiate (spell access)
6th Arcane(1st level feature)
10th channeling
14th Arcane priest (6th level feature)

All the phb wizard archetypes get two things at 2nd level. But one of those is just half price spell transcription for one school of spells, hardly a big deal that needs to be covered in other archetypes.

[Chaosmancer]

So, from what I can see the Theurge is exactly the same, with exactly the same problems.

The Wizard gets the cleric's capstone first, because the beloved servant of the Gods is less beloved than the wizard I guess (Really, it's because of the spacing of the subclasses, wizards have all their own stuff going on 17-20 so their subclasses end at 14, but it is still bad design)

In a High magic setting like Faerun, the "trade off" of learning cleric spells instead of wizard ones could be non-existant, because the Wizard can just learn by buying new spells or copying from another wizard's book while using their level ups to pick the cleric clean. This is DM dependent as has been pointed out, but all you really need is a single enemy wizard and you likely end up with a good number of the basics.

And the cardinal sin, it is boring. All your abilities are the same abilities as another class, you just happen to also be a wizard.


Now, Warmagic is new.

First thing I notice, War Mages are the best at Concentration checks. Concentration checks are Constitution saving throws so Arcane Deflection and Durable Magic both apply, giving them a +6 to the check before con mod and war caster get brought into the mix.

The potential for +4 AC isn't bad either to avoid the hit in the first place.

Tactical Wit makes some sense, so why not.

Power Surge I'm not sure about. It seems very good, once per short rest your AOE spell is counted as 2 levels higher, which could be devastating as an opening move.

Again though, this is a bit boring. Better AC and saves are nice, more damage is okay, but these don't really change the nature of the beast like other traditions do, so I'm not sure if War Mage is worth taking over Bladesinger or Evoker, or really anything else.

I am glad it seems that the Lore Wizard is either gone or being heavily edited though.

[tkuremento]

So, from what I can see the Theurge is exactly the same, with exactly the same problems.

Someone already said they did it exactly the same so they can get survey data this time around.

[Anderlith]

I like war mage, though I'd like to see it upgraded a bit. It feels like a mage who goes into close combat while the Evoker is an Artillery piece. It needs more sparkle though, maybe a stronger Deflection, or a free Sustained Spell, maybe be able to throw a barrage of cantrips, they would get to cast a single damage cantrip like firebolt, twice but they suffer negatives to do it or something.

[Sigreid]

I like war mage, though I'd like to see it upgraded a bit. It feels like a mage who goes into close combat while the Evoker is an Artillery piece. It needs more sparkle though, maybe a stronger Deflection, or a free Sustained Spell, maybe be able to throw a barrage of cantrips, they would get to cast a single damage cantrip like firebolt, twice but they suffer negatives to do it or something.

Keep in mind that with a dip into fighter or cleric they could wear heavy armor, carry a shield and get their deflection thing for a pretty ridiculous AC that would make attacks by common warriors all but completely futile.

[Arkhios]

Keep in mind that with a dip into fighter or cleric they could wear heavy armor, carry a shield and get their deflection thing for a pretty ridiculous AC that would make attacks by common warriors all but completely futile.

Keep in mind that UA isn't balanced towards multiclassing.

[Kane0]

AC 23 with Full plate, shield and Defense fighting style, possibly more if you add in Forge Cleric with another +2 at level 10 warmage. Hardly invulnerable, and don't forget EK shield spam.

Edit: Hmm, gets me thinking...

Take the standard EK + lock dip + Rogue build, add in 2 levels of warmage for all day reaction +2 AC / +4 con save and Int to init. Pretty sweet.

[skaddix]

I say the Mystic Theurge reaches true brokenness if they ever make it to Lvl 18.

Thanks to Spell Mastery the Mystic Theurge can score unlimited healing at the cost of zero spell slots.

Now sure Prayer of Healing for instance might not be the fastest option but it is Unlimited.

[McNinja]

The biggest problem is that 17th level capstone at 14th level. They shouldn't have even put that in the first UA, let alone keep it in the second, even if they are looking for feedback this time. It's so blindingly obvious that it's a bad feature I'm not sure why anyone thought it was a good idea in the first place, unless they thought of and published the UA in one day.

Tempest max damage with lightning bolt, call lightning, or chain lightning is incredible. Corona of Light with... any spell that deals radiant or fire is incredible. It makes Meteor Swarm (even just fireball) so much more dangerous than it already is.

[Deleted]

So, from what I can see the Theurge is exactly the same, with exactly the same problems.

The Wizard gets the cleric's capstone first, because the beloved servant of the Gods is less beloved than the wizard I guess (Really, it's because of the spacing of the subclasses, wizards have all their own stuff going on 17-20 so their subclasses end at 14, but it is still bad design)

In a High magic setting like Faerun, the "trade off" of learning cleric spells instead of wizard ones could be non-existant, because the Wizard can just learn by buying new spells or copying from another wizard's book while using their level ups to pick the cleric clean. This is DM dependent as has been pointed out, but all you really need is a single enemy wizard and you likely end up with a good number of the basics.

And the cardinal sin, it is boring. All your abilities are the same abilities as another class, you just happen to also be a wizard.


Now, Warmagic is new.

First thing I notice, War Mages are the best at Concentration checks. Concentration checks are Constitution saving throws so Arcane Deflection and Durable Magic both apply, giving them a +6 to the check before con mod and war caster get brought into the mix.

The potential for +4 AC isn't bad either to avoid the hit in the first place.

Tactical Wit makes some sense, so why not.

Power Surge I'm not sure about. It seems very good, once per short rest your AOE spell is counted as 2 levels higher, which could be devastating as an opening move.

Again though, this is a bit boring. Better AC and saves are nice, more damage is okay, but these don't really change the nature of the beast like other traditions do, so I'm not sure if War Mage is worth taking over Bladesinger or Evoker, or really anything else.

I am glad it seems that the Lore Wizard is either gone or being heavily edited though.

At-Will (Reaction) +2AC/+4 Con save is absolutely broken. You get to pick if you use it after you know if you failed the save or the attack hit...

Look at indomitable. Gives no bonus to the roll. May be once per long rest (until late game when no one is playing). Sure I domitable works for more things but your chances of passing most saves get worse over time.

I like the limitation to using cantrips, this is a feature that can be expanded.

But to shore up the main weakness of the wizard, HP, in such a great way is backwards and broken.

[joaber]

If I get nature domain as theurge and choose shillelagh, I'll use it with Int or Wis? Warding flare, wrath of the storm, war priest, all of that still need Wis istead of Int?
Theurge is absolutely lazily designed.

[jaappleton]

If I get nature domain as theurge and choose shillelagh, I'll use it with Int or Wis? Warding flare, wrath of the storm, war priest, all of that still need Wis istead of Int?
Theurge is absolutely lazily designed.

I got all these answered when Theurge was first released months ago.

Any instance of using Wisdom is replaced with Int, and any instance of Cleric levels is replaces with Wizard levels.

So Shillalagh uses Int, Warding Flare can be used a number of times equal to your Int modifier, etc.

Yes, its lazily written. But most UA is.

[Beechgnome]

There is a subtle change in the wording of Theurge.

First version: 'Whenever you gain a wizard level, you can choose to replace one of the wizard spells you add to your spellbook with a cleric domain spell for your chosen domain."

New version: "Whenever you gain a wizard level, you can replace one of the wizard spells you add to your spellbook with a cleric domain spell for your chosen domain."

I took this new version to mean you can replace one, and only one, wizard spell with a cleric domain spell at each level, which slows down the pace.

Naturally, with everything in the UAs, the language is loose and ambiguous, but as a reader, that's what I took it to mean. Otherwise, they might have written "you can replace the wizard spells you add" and just dropped the "one."

So a life domain theurge would could take bless OR cure wounds at 2nd level and then would have to take the other or lesser restoration or spiritual weapon at 3rd level and then one of the remaining two at 4th level.

At that rate you wouldn't have all of your domain spells until 11th level and only then would you have choice.

Of course, for domains like Tempest that borrow heavily from Wizard spells they could always choose to add those spells with your wizard slots.

So a Tempest Theurge could have fog cloud and thunderwave as among their first five spells, then choose Bless and a wizard spell at second level, then gust of wind and shatter at 3rd, then say spiritual weapon and another wizard spell at 4th.

If I'm reading this right, this does slow down the progress of learning cleric spells a little bit.

But it doesn't fix all the problems with porting Cleric powers like Destructive Wrath or the still weird Channel Arcana.

[Spellbreaker26]

The Theurge is still unforgivably broken. Part of this is because the Wizard base-class is so strong, it's difficult to add balanced subclasses to it. The Theurge adds a bunch of great class features and a large amount of spells. There are two reasons why it is poorly designed:

1. It eclipses the cleric, rather than integrating it. A wizard will always be a better caster than an eldritch knight; a fighter will always be a better close combat machine than a bladesinger.
But the Theurge is probably at least as good of a cleric as many clerics. So long as they don't choose a divine domain with poor domain spells they're laughing. Getting the level 17 ability earlier is just spitting in the face of people who take the actual cleric class.

2. The flexibility after level 10 is insane. Being able to handpick the better high level cleric spells is completely borked for Wizards, who already have a bloated spell list. They're not as offensively frontloaded as, say, the Loremaster, but they're more dangerous in the long-run. Tempest Theurges aren't the most broken early on but quickly get there and by level 14 are insane (concentration-free flight outdoors?) wheras War Theurges have an exceedingly dangerous lower level spell list (do you want a PC in the party that has both Fireball AND Spirit Guardians by level 5?)

[DanyBallon]

So far my comments about Theurge in the survey would be to add the only domain spells to the wizard spell list he can learn new spells. And the 14th level feature is a big slap in the cleric face and should be replaced by something else.

[jaappleton]

The Theurge is still unforgivably broken. Part of this is because the Wizard base-class is so strong, it's difficult to add balanced subclasses to it. The Theurge adds a bunch of great class features and a large amount of spells. There are two reasons why it is poorly designed:

1. It eclipses the cleric, rather than integrating it. A wizard will always be a better caster than an eldritch knight; a fighter will always be a better close combat machine than a bladesinger.
But the Theurge is probably at least as good of a cleric as many clerics. So long as they don't choose a divine domain with poor domain spells they're laughing. Getting the level 17 ability earlier is just spitting in the face of people who take the actual cleric class.

2. The flexibility after level 10 is insane. Being able to handpick the better high level cleric spells is completely borked for Wizards, who already have a bloated spell list. They're not as offensively frontloaded as, say, the Loremaster, but they're more dangerous in the long-run. Tempest Theurges aren't the most broken early on but quickly get there and by level 14 are insane (concentration-free flight outdoors?) wheras War Theurges have an exceedingly dangerous lower level spell list (do you want a PC in the party that has both Fireball AND Spirit Guardians by level 5?)

You've put it into words better than I could.

It really does eclipse the Cleric. It takes the Domain, the abilities, etc and makes it better. Shield, Absorb Elements, the Arcane Recovery Feature, and the Domain abilities.

This is important to note: Theurge was done BEFORE the new round of Unearthed Arcana, when it became nearly weekly. It is obvious more thought overall went into this newer content than the Theurge. That said, the Theurge is still laughably unbalanced.


As a side note, on War Wizard...

So they can add two damage dice to a damage roll, right? Whats that do on Scorching Ray? Does each ray get +2 dice, or just add the extra dice where you feel like?
Nevermind it applies only to spells with saving throws.

[DireSickFish]

At-Will (Reaction) +2AC/+4 Con save is absolutely broken. You get to pick if you use it after you know if you failed the save or the attack hit...

Look at indomitable. Gives no bonus to the roll. May be once per long rest (until late game when no one is playing). Sure I domitable works for more things but your chances of passing most saves get worse over time.

I like the limitation to using cantrips, this is a feature that can be expanded.

But to shore up the main weakness of the wizard, HP, in such a great way is backwards and broken.

The +2AC is just worse than a Shield spell. And while Shield uses up a 1st lvl spell slot it also last for all attacks against you and doesn't restrict your spell-casting on the next round. The +4 con saving throw doesn't "shore up HP as a weakness" it means they are more reliable at keeping concentration spells up. It's only to the 1 save but if it stops you from dropping Haste on yourself or you buddy then it's well worth it.

The War mage is just really reliable. They can take on foes and have tools to avoid getting hit and dropping important spells. I don't think it's broken they can spam a small AC bonus against one attack while giving up meaningful spellcasting for the next round. It has plenty of opportunity cost.

[DracoKnight]

(do you want a PC in the party that has both Fireball AND Spirit Guardians by level 5?)

I'm not trying to say that the Theurge isn't broken as all hell, but the Light Cleric can already do that.

[Spellbreaker26]

I'm not trying to say that the Theurge isn't broken as all hell, but the Light Cleric can already do that.

Nice catch.

[DracoKnight]

Nice catch.

It's definitely awesome to have both spells on your list, but it's not broken :smallbiggrin:

[thepsyker]

For the Theurge I thinknthe whole getting cleric capstone before the cleric is a nonstarter, they need to think up something else for that level.

I like the War Wizard, but think it could use another ribbon-esque ability to pizazz things up. Probably at 10, because while that ability isn't bad it is a little dull. I think some thing that gives them some smallish tactical/startegic effects could liven the level up. Something like:

Battle Wizadry:
From your time on the battle field you have learned a number of minor magics that can have a useful tactical or startegic effect.

-Magical Signal: You can create a magical effect that can act as a signal. This effect can take the form of a colored flare that appears at a point within 50 feet, a column of colored smoke up to 50 feet high, or a wailing siren or similar sound that can be heard by any within a 300 foot radius. These effects last for up to a minute or intil you choose to end them.
-Lighting Flare - You can creat a slow falling flare to light a battlefield. You launch the flare to a point within 100 feet and with a maximum altitude of 50 feet. The flare then bursts lighting an circle with a diameter equal to its altitude in bright light and a circle with a radius equal to its altitude on dim light. It then begins to fall at a rate of 5 feet a round and snuffs out at an altitude of 5 feet.
-Magical Map - You can create a floting there dimensionsl topagraphic tactical map of an area you have seen. It can be of any scale, but the map itself can only be extended beyond a 5'x5' size by expending an additional ise of this ability. The map can be updated/animated in real time in response to what the wizard sees either through direct observation or through additional magical effects such as a scouting familiar, Arcane Eye, a Crystal Ball, etc. The map will last up to an hour.

A wizard can have up to their inteligence modifier (minimum 1) of these effects active at a time.


Now I'm not sure exactly how balanced these particular examples would be, but they work as examples of the types of effects I think could bring a bit more "war" flavor to the War Wizard.

[Spellbreaker26]

For the Theurge I thinknthe whole getting cleric capstone before the cleric is a nonstarter, they need to think up something else for that level.

I like the War Wizard, but think it could use another ribbon-esque ability to pizazz things up. Probably at 10, because while that ability isn't bad it is a little dull. I think some thing that gives them some smallish tactical/startegic effects could liven the level up. Something like:

Battle Wizadry:
From your time on the battle field you have learned a number of minor magics that can have a useful tactical or startegic effect.



These are actually really great.

[AirApparent]

-Magical Map - You can create a floting there dimensionsl topagraphic tactical map of an area you have seen. It can be of any scale, but the map itself can only be extended beyond a 5'x5' size by expending an additional ise of this ability. The map can be updated/animated in real time in response to what the wizard sees either through direct observation or through additional magical effects such as a scouting familiar, Arcane Eye, a Crystal Ball, etc. The map will last up to an hour.

A wizard can have up to their inteligence modifier (minimum 1) of these effects active at a time.


Now I'm not sure exactly how balanced these particular examples would be, but they work as examples of the types of effects I think could bring a bit more "war" flavor to the War Wizard.


The map thing makes me want to make a war wizard general who pretty much turns d&d into an RTS game

[Temperjoke]

So really the big issue is that because individual wizard subclasses get their final "unique" ability at 14, while clerics get theirs at 17, it's overpowered/unfair?

The only way to make it fair is to create a completely new/unique wizard ability, but then that diverges from the cleric aspect of the class unless you make a separate version for every single cleric domain. You also can't just give them the other cleric abilities because that is underpowered compared to other wizard subclass capstones.

[solidork]

The map thing makes me want to make a war wizard general who pretty much turns d&d into an RTS game

We've used Minor Illusion this way as part of planning an attack on an enemy stronghold after we spent a few minutes trying to explain to the commander of our allied forces the layout of the surrounding area.

[Spellbreaker26]

So really the big issue is that because individual wizard subclasses get their final "unique" ability at 14, while clerics get theirs at 17, it's overpowered/unfair?


That's not the only big issue.

Wizards would be a class on the power rung of, say, at least rangers without any subclass abilities at all. Giving them access to so many cleric spells once they hit level 11 is just asking for trouble.

[Stan]

That's not the only big issue.

Wizards would be a class on the power rung of, say, at least rangers without any subclass abilities at all. Giving them access to so many cleric spells once they hit level 11 is just asking for trouble.

Yea, they already have the widest and, arguably, the best selection of spells, plus a few nifty extras, already. Allowing them to cherry pick cleric spells makes it even stronger. I think, in recognition of how strong this is, it should be toned down. Possible solutions are:
1. That's all they get at level 2, bumping channeling to later and never getting the 17th level cleric ability.
2. They get the domain spells, one at a time as before, then stop getting cleric spells when that runs out.

[Dudu]

I just feel having more wizard subclasses is among the things we need the least right now.

Also, Theurge having lvl 17 cleric capstone at lvl 14 simply sounds wrong. Think about Tempest Domain. That guy would be the ultimate blaster. Up to 3/short rest you maximize your lightning or thunder damage (and you have access to more damaging spells than cleric) you fly at will as long as you are outdoors. If someone gets too close and hit you you can zap that someone and push 10ft away. C'mon, it's easy to see how this particular Wizard is kicking everyone's asses.

Overall, I think this Unearthed Arcana is a C-. Maybe even less. It's somewhat irrelevant and unbalanced as well. I'd rather see a UA about traps 2.0 than this. Meanwhile, clerics have Sacred Flame as their single damage cantrip making all the subclasses that grant Wis mod to cantrips feel bland in that regard (except Arcane Domain, obviously).

[jaappleton]

Plus they have a massive selection of spells available to 'know'.

You can mix Arcane & Divine casting with little issue... See the new Favored Soul. The small amount of spells known means you can't know EVERYTHING.

They also, of course, get spells that aren't supposed to be near a Cleric. Call Lightning is a 5' radius doing 3d10. Maxed via Channel Divinity, at lv3, is 30 damage.

Now replace that with Lightning Bolt. A 5' wide, 100' long line of 48 damage. As a 5th level caster, that's a MASSIVE difference.

Replace a 6th level Call Lightning with Chain Lightning.

Its a problem. A big one.

[Dudu]

Yes, I just hope Theurge joins Lore Master in the "non printable" wagon. It instantly becomes superior to alternatives.

One of my favorite builds was a Tempest Cleric 2/ Storm Sorc 18 for the 1/short rest thingie. You're slowing your spell progression by 2 levels and the maximize lightning/thunder is a single time per short rest, and even then I found this build powerful. Theurge does that better and easier.

And feels thematically excessive. Steps on too many toes. We have the Arcane Cleric as well as the Knowledge cleric for arcane oriented deities, why a clericish wizard? Really, I love wizards, it's among my favorite classes, but they are getting too many cookies already, there are spells and feats that I'd rather see in an UA. And you know what's fun? Magic Items. That too. Coupled with fun ways to introduce magic items in your campaign without making it a shopping store like 3.5.

[jaappleton]

I just feel having more wizard subclasses is among the things we need the least right now.

Also, Theurge having lvl 17 cleric capstone at lvl 14 simply sounds wrong. Think about Tempest Domain. That guy would be the ultimate blaster.

I played one. It was ridiculous. I retired the character after three sessions because I rendered other party members obsolete.

[BigONotation]

I don't know why everything produced for wizards by Wizards of the Coast is so stupidly OP, but I wish I could figure it out :wink:

In all seriousness, I don't allow Bladesingers or any UA material for wizards, they are overpowered already with their spell list being as strong as it is.

[Spellbreaker26]

I played one. It was ridiculous. I retired the character after three sessions because I rendered other party members obsolete.

On the plus side it would make a great BBEG.

[SharkForce]

The biggest problem is that 17th level capstone at 14th level. They shouldn't have even put that in the first UA, let alone keep it in the second, even if they are looking for feedback this time. It's so blindingly obvious that it's a bad feature I'm not sure why anyone thought it was a good idea in the first place, unless they thought of and published the UA in one day.

Tempest max damage with lightning bolt, call lightning, or chain lightning is incredible. Corona of Light with... any spell that deals radiant or fire is incredible. It makes Meteor Swarm (even just fireball) so much more dangerous than it already is.

oh, the hilarious thing with light cleric isn't meteor swarm or fireball (although those are certainly not bad to use either).

it's sunbeam. an AoE blind + damage every round that you can give enemies disadvantage against the save. a reliable blind probably doesn't end encounters quite as thoroughly as a reliable massive damage hit to basically every enemy. but in some fights, it turns the whole thing into a mere formality, and it will make many fights many times easier when one side has advantage to hit and the other has disadvantage, not to mention that everything that includes the phrase "that you can see" doesn't work for the side with disadvantage...

oh, and sunburst is equally funny, because you don't need to concentrate on the blinding effect, it just lasts for a minute until the target makes a save. which they will have disadvantage on :)

[JumboWheat01]

I figured they were gonna take a break this week to give people time to digest the Mystic. Anyhoo, I like the War Mage, it fits an image of a wizard I was drawing up that had the Soldier background.

Theurge is still way too strong, and something I wouldn't play.

[Deleted]

On the plus side it would make a great BBEG.

Not really.

Hey guys here is a PC build that I'm using that you guys can't because you feel its too broken...

That character would make a good BBEG, but not that build.

It's kinda mean.


The +2AC is just worse than a Shield spell. And while Shield uses up a 1st lvl spell slot it also last for all attacks against you and doesn't restrict your spell-casting on the next round. The +4 con saving throw doesn't "shore up HP as a weakness" it means they are more reliable at keeping concentration spells up. It's only to the 1 save but if it stops you from dropping Haste on yourself or you buddy then it's well worth it.

The War mage is just really reliable. They can take on foes and have tools to avoid getting hit and dropping important spells. I don't think it's broken they can spam a small AC bonus against one attack while giving up meaningful spellcasting for the next round. It has plenty of opportunity cost.

Shield and this subclass feature doesn't fight each other, they supplement each other.

This is a cantrip of shield that is really fricken strong. Not only is it a cantrip shield (which I have one of with my sorcerer) but it is over powered for one.

[XBlckCrow150]

what are the chances of most dm's banning war magic from this UA?

[tkuremento]

what are the chances of most dm's banning war magic from this UA?

Not too high is my guess, a lot of people feel it is relatively fine as is.

[Spellbreaker26]

Not really.

Hey guys here is a PC build that I'm using that you guys can't because you feel its too broken...

That character would make a good BBEG, but not that build.

It's kinda mean.



It's an NPC though, they don't neccessarily have to play by all of the PC player's rules.

[Sigreid]

It's an NPC though, they don't neccessarily have to play by all of the PC player's rules.

I've always felt it is cheep to allow NPCs to do things that players can't. Things players won't, fair game. Having NPCs play by different rules, stinks.

[Spellbreaker26]

I've always felt it is cheep to allow NPCs to do things that players can't. Things players won't, fair game. Having NPCs play by different rules, stinks.

I mean, I could just draw up a statblock if I wanted to. I don't even have to structure it by class. There are plenty of excuses for why an NPC might be more powerful (empowered by an evil god/forbidden lore, for example).

[King539]

+4 to a save is better than having advantage.


Incorrect. Advantage is the equivalent of +5.

[Sigreid]

I mean, I could just draw up a statblock if I wanted to. I don't even have to structure it by class. There are plenty of excuses for why an NPC might be more powerful (empowered by an evil god/forbidden lore, for example).

It just annoys me. I'm even a bit annoyed that in Volo's the Hobgoblin Devistator has a level of control over who is affected by his spells equivalent to a wizard evoker with the sorcerer careful spell minus the meta magic point cost. Why are the damn goblins so much better at controlling their magic than a PC Arch-mage?

[Beechgnome]

Incorrect. Advantage is the equivalent of +5.

Actually, advantage has a variable impact. When the target chance of success is roughly 50/50, then it is +5, but if the chance of success is slim (say you need to roll a 19 or 20) or overwhelming (roll of 2 or 3) then advantage is only +1/+2. (I can't quite remember which).

Plus advantage can be neutralized by disadvantage, whereas +4 is always +4.

[Puh Laden]

Actually, advantage has a variable impact. When the target chance of success is roughly 50/50, then it is +5, but if the chance of success is slim (say you need to roll a 19 or 20) or overwhelming (roll of 2 or 3) then advantage is only +1/+2. (I can't quite remember which).

Plus advantage can be neutralized by disadvantage, whereas +4 is always +4.

Plus +4 stacks with advantage while advantage doesn't stack with itself.

[Zaq]

I really applaud them for introducing Arcane Deflection. It's way more refreshing than it should be to see an ability that has a cost but that doesn't consume a daily or short rest resource. More like that, please!

[Ugganaut]

I really like War Wizard, but I think I'd like to see Arcane Deflection and Power Surge switched. At low levels, Power Surge could help boost a limited spell slot, and therefore help survive those lower levels. Arcane Deflection's at-will power seems more fitting at 6th, when you have more slots, and the drawback is actually more of a drawback. It would also stop a 2 level dip being so damn strong.

[Saiga]

I really like War Wizard, but I think I'd like to see Arcane Deflection and Power Surge switched. At low levels, Power Surge could help boost a limited spell slot, and therefore help survive those lower levels. Arcane Deflection's at-will power seems more fitting at 6th, when you have more slots, and the drawback is actually more of a drawback. It would also stop a 2 level dip being so damn strong.

Oh yeah... Arcane Deflection is crazy for a Warlock dip since they prefer to spam EB.

[Ugganaut]

Oh yeah... Arcane Deflection is crazy for a Warlock dip since they prefer to spam EB.
Yeah, anyone with limited spell slots, and doesn't already have a regular use for thier reaction. As a 6th level ability, I think if you dip that far in, you deserve it.

[Spellbreaker26]

I really like War Wizard, but I think I'd like to see Arcane Deflection and Power Surge switched. At low levels, Power Surge could help boost a limited spell slot, and therefore help survive those lower levels. Arcane Deflection's at-will power seems more fitting at 6th, when you have more slots, and the drawback is actually more of a drawback. It would also stop a 2 level dip being so damn strong.

Yeah, but then you get clerics going for a 2 level dip to get power surge for spirit guardians.

[jaappleton]

Yeah, but then you get clerics going for a 2 level dip to get power surge for spirit guardians.

I believe it'd only apply to the first instance of damage rolls in that scenario, not for every time damage is rolled so long as you maintain Concentration.

[Spellbreaker26]

I believe it'd only apply to the first instance of damage rolls in that scenario, not for every time damage is rolled so long as you maintain Concentration.

Indeed, I forgot it's only on the first turn.

I guess since wizards pretty much have the most dangerous AoEs, multiclassing isn't really as much as big of a deal for that.