Help with Paladin Multi-class and Feat

[BladedWizard]

Hi,

We have finally started the OotA campaign. I waited after everybody made their decision on what to play before I made mine so I could fill out the missing role.

The party (we're currently level 2) is composed of:
- Tiefling Monk (long dead or a modified version of four elements)
- Half Orc Barbarian (bear totem)
- Gnome Wizard (Abjuration)
- myself as a Half-Drow Paladin

Reasons why I went with a paladin are because I can fulfill multiple roles. I'm planning on multi classing with a Bard (Paly 6/Bard 14). I will be the party face, lots of skills, tanky, healing, support and buffing. I understand I won't be able to do it all at the same time but at least I have the ability to cover those grounds.

My stats are as follow (I didn't min-max):
Str: 13, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Wis: 12, Int: 8, Cha: 16

Background wise I'm an outcast half-drow born in the Underdark who has found his place among the faction of Bregan D'aerthe.

My questions are:
- I went Dex based to have better dex saving throws, initiative, etc . However, my Dex is not that high. So for my first ASI would it be better I take +2 to Dex or the feat Warcaster? The feat is a must have if I want to cast while holding a shield and weapon.
- Would it be preferable I don't use a shield at all? Would lose AC tho.
- Do you need an instrument to cast spell as a bard? Would it make Warcaster feat obsolete?
- Is 16 enough for my attacking stat? I'd like to concentrate on my Cha to get it to 20.
- I'm thinking Vengeance Oath with Lore Bard. I'm also considering Sorcerer for the MC instead of bard. I'm not interested in Warlock at all. However, I find Bard being more support, skillful and can heal which are roles I'm trying to cover.
- Not sure if I will level Paly to level 6 and then go Bard. Or start MC in Bard at next level to have more spells to smite with. I'm assume either way are good, but what do you think?

Sorry for the multiple questions. And thanks a lot for taking the time to answer them.

What are your opinions?

[Specter]

Yeah, you definitely want to put at the very least your first ASI in DEX. 14 as an attacking stat is unacceptable. War Caster will have to wait.

When you take a Bard multiclass you'll be without your shield if you want to cast Bard spells (Paladin spells can still be cast if your shield is your holy symbol). So, either don't cast Bard spells on combat, or loose the shield.

Don't multiclass too much; Bard has everything you need. A solid bonus action use, full casting, skill proficiencies and Expertise. Sorcerer would just slow you down.

As for the oath, anything goes. I believe Vengeance is the best for now, because the channel divinity gives you adv. on attacks against one enemy, and that's what you want with a low attacking stat. Sacred Weapon is good too, but that costs an action.

As for when to multiclass, I say after Paladin 5. Then, grab a Bard level for the Inspiration, then back yo Pally, then Bard all the way. That's assuming you want Extra Attack ASAP, if not you could go Bard 4 after Paladin 4.

But the most important thing is to boost your DEX. +1 to attacks, saves, damage and AC can't be bad.

[BladedWizard]

Don't multiclass too much; Bard has everything you need. A solid bonus action use, full casting, skill proficiencies and Expertise. Sorcerer would just slow you down.

I apologize... I wasn't clear. What I meant is going Sorcerer instead of Bard. I will edit my post and correct it.

Thanks for the feedback. Very good points.

[Specter]

I apologize... I wasn't clear. What I meant is going Sorcerer instead of Bard. I will edit my post and correct it.

Thanks for the feedback. Very good points.

In that case... both can work.

It seems to me your group could really use a skillful guy, and that's where Bard comes in. But Sorcerer is not bad, either, with quickened spells along with your attacks. My personal favorite's bard, but anything goes

[gfishfunk]

Initial thoughts:

- You will have to do Medium Armor because your Str is not high enough for Heavy armor.
- Fighting style: probably go defense. I generally like protection, but I think people will be hitting you over your compatriots. Heavy weapons are out - you need dex weapons.

For your set-up, I would go Bard earlier on because you are not going to be hitting and dealing great weapon damage until you can get your Dex stat up. That means less Hit + Smite damage because you won't hit as often. Your contributions are going to be +Cha based through Bard spells or Paladin spells.

[BladedWizard]

Initial thoughts:

- You will have to do Medium Armor because your Str is not high enough for Heavy armor.
- Fighting style: probably go defense. I generally like protection, but I think people will be hitting you over your compatriots. Heavy weapons are out - you need dex weapons.

For your set-up, I would go Bard earlier on because you are not going to be hitting and dealing great weapon damage until you can get your Dex stat up. That means less Hit + Smite damage because you won't hit as often. Your contributions are going to be +Cha based through Bard spells or Paladin spells.

Do you think the pros of going Dex based outmatch the pros of going Str? I initially went Dex based because I wanted a better initiative, Dex Save and be better at Dex skills such as stealth. Str does not do much other than being able to wear full plate and Athletic check. And because I needed the 13 in Str to MC I was left with a 14 in Dex. I could have went Str based and have a 16 in Str. Maybe that's what I should do. Maybe the DM wouldn't mind that I changed my stats.

I will have 4 ASI if we get to level 20 (which I think we will). I can raise my Dex no problem. Would a 16 be sufficient or I need at least 18? I never played past level 10 so I don't know how the combat is affected by the stats higher level.

[Specter]

Do you think the pros of going Dex based outmatch the pros of going Str? I initially went Dex based because I wanted a better initiative, Dex Save and be better at Dex skills such as stealth. Str does not do much other than being able to wear full plate and Athletic check. And because I needed the 13 in Str to MC I was left with a 14 in Dex. I could have went Str based and have a 16 in Str. Maybe that's what I should do. Maybe the DM wouldn't mind that I changed my stats.

I will have 4 ASI if we get to level 20 (which I think we will). I can raise my Dex no problem. Would a 16 be sufficient or I need at least 18? I never played past level 10 so I don't know how the combat is affected by the stats higher level.

You could go Strenght, but that's essentially having a better AC at the cost of lower DEX saves andbeing worse at DEX skills. If you're ok with that, then ok.

At least 18 in the future. A magic weapon can make you wait a bit longer if it comes, but martials need to show their physical stat a lot of love.

[gfishfunk]

Str is merely more compatible with the fighting styles provided to paladins, and is a multiclassing gatekeeper. Since you need 13 Str to multiclass into or out of Paladin, it makes sense to dump Dex and use it as your primary.

I (personally) would be okay with one of my players multiclassing paladin without a Str 13 and I would use Cha as the only gatekeeper - but that is my willing departure from the established rules.

But yeah, you will get hit with Dex stuff. Just not as often as you think. Also, when you hit Paladin 6 you will end up having a decent dex save anyway due to your aura.

Let me see if I can sell you on this other idea anyway:

Str: 16
Dex: 8
Cha: 14 (or 16 if you can get it that high to start).
Other stats: how you like them.

Dump Dex and push Str. Go versatile weapons and don't use a shield. Have the best heavy armor that you can afford, and constantly use Bless. At level 4, push up Charisma (to 16 or to 18) or grab War Caster.

- Bless helps your saves and helps you hit. On average, its as good as having proficiency in all saves at low level.
- Versatile weapons allow you to cast spells and allows you to use weapons in a @H capacity....although talk to your DM first. A lot of DMs will say 2H weapons like Mauls and Greatswords don't impede spell casting because you can let go of your weapon with 1H to cast the spell. Just check in with them first.

Alternatively, go sword and board right off the bat and only cast paladin spells that are verbal only - there are several. Other spells (like Bless) can be cast at the beginning of combat, and then you draw your weapon to end your first turn in combat.

[Citan]

Hi OP!

First, about first ASI.
I would'nt be so quick to push you towards the DEX.
Before that, I would make you ask those two questions.
1. Are you set on Vengeance, or would Devotion be fine too?
2. Are you keen on using Hunter's Mark (if Vengeance), or would you also use Bless?

14 DEX can be fine as is if you can bump it with buffs:
- Vengeance provides advantage which is great, but only on one enemy per short rest. May or not be acceptable to you that you are reliable only against one enemy.
- Devotion will bring great bonus against everyone but requires an action, so either more preparation or be ready to spend a turn buffing you up.
- Bless is an excellent choice of concentration spell to use, since it brings generally decent bonus to hit on each attack, also affects your saves, and you can affect 2 more allies (Monk and Barbarian seem the obvious ones).

Also, consider how you will work with your allies. By the time you reach your first ASI, your Monk pal can make 3 attacks, so he can trade one to Shove, giving you advantage. Maybe your Barbarian friend will go Wolf Totem, also giving you advantage.

So...
a) You intend to use Bless regularly.
b) You are fine with being reliable against one enemy (Vengeance) or you go Devotion.
c) Your pals work tactics to provide advantage against enemies.
If any of those three above is true AND you really want to wield a shield (for AC, or because you took Protection style) picking Warcaster is an acceptable choice.

If you went Devotion, picking Warcaster will always be an acceptable choice (because you will max CHA so it will compensate the never-increasing DEX).

In all other cases, go +DEX.

2. Wielding or not wielding that is the question.
It may be a bit of a tough choice in theory.
For now, you don't have any question though, you will have too few slots. So just wield a shield and use only verbal spells or divine smite.
Once you reach level 3, you will see how your party as a whole fares as far as survival is concerned.
But considering 3 of 4 are fairly resilient (Paladin / Barbarian / Monk), you should not be the prime target for attacks (especially with Barbarian's Reckless Attack), so imo you should not need the shield past some point.

Also, consider this: Warcaster benefits are...
- more freedom in spellcasting by taking care of somatic.
- concentration bonus
- cast a spell in place of OA.
First is obvious, but it doesn't take into account the material components. For Paladin spells, you can do with a sacred shield that serves as a focus. But once you go Bard? Unless you get lucky, you will have to bear with component pouch (1 hand) or musical instrument (1-2 hands).
Meaning you will probably still need a free hand in the end.

Second is indeed nice for a melee character.

Third is of little interest to you until you get at least Bard 3: no interesting offensive cantrip, few interesting spells...

So, while it does bring interesting things, imo you can also perfectly well do without until you are character level 7 at least.

That is, if you first go straight Paladin then multiclass Bard.

Another option would be to multiclass Bard much earlier, and grab a weapon cantrip with your first Magic Secrets.

Yet another option would be to grab Magic Initiate: Sorcerer (Shocking Grasp, Firebolt) or Warlock (Booming Blade, Eldricht Blast)
As soon as you get a powerful cantrip, Warcaster becomes much more interesting.

TL;DR: If you are set on Vengeance, then +DEX is probably a better choice, even if technically staying 14 DEX and picking Warcaster could be fine, because the latter's benefits won't shine so much until you really get a handful of good concentration spells and slots to use them.
If you pick Devotion, then both are equally acceptable (as long as you bump DEX at least once before lvl 10, and once after).