Mystic and Sanity

[Arkhios]

In a setting I'm brewing I'm going to be using 7th ability Score - Sanity, and I just had a funny idea: What if Mystic Psionic Ability was Sanity instead of Intelligence?

Any opinions?

[Steampunkette]

Probably too rough.

Intelligence has knowledge skills tied to it, what has Sanity got aside from saving throws?

It potentially adds MAD but doesn't really give them much else. What're the benefits of Sanity?

[Arkhios]

SANITY SCORE
Consider using the Sanity score if your campaign revolves around entities of an utterly alien and unspeakable nature, such as Great Cthulhu, whose powers and minions can shatter a character's mind. A character with a high Sanity is level-headed even in the face of insane circumstances, while a character with low Sanity is unsteady, breaking easily when confronted by eldritch horrors that are beyond normal reason.

Sanity Checks. You might ask characters to make a Sanity check in place of an Intelligence check to recall lore about the alien creatures of madness featured in your campaign, to decipher the writings of raving lunatics, or to learn spells from tomes of forbidden lore.
You might also call for a Sanity check when a character tries one of the following activities:

Deciphering a piece of text written in a language so alien that it threatens to break a character's mind
Overcoming the lingering effects of madness
Comprehending a piece of alien magic foreign to all normal understanding of magic


Sanity Saving Throws. You might call for a Sanity saving throw when a character runs the risk of succumbing to madness, such as in the following situations:

Seeing a creature from the Far Realm or other alien realms for the first time
Making direct contact with the mind of an alien creature
Being subjected to spells that affect mental stability, such as the insanity option of the symbol spell
Passing through a demiplane built on alien physics
Resisting an effect conferred by an attack or spell that deals psychic damage


A failed Sanity save might result in short-term, longterm, or indefinite madness, as described in chapter 8, "Running the Game." Any time a character suffers from long-term or indefinite madness, the character's Sanity is reduced by 1. A greater restoration spell can restore Sanity lost in this way, and a character can increase his or her Sanity through level advancement.

As you can see, there are quite a few potential uses for Sanity as described in DMG. If Mystic would be given Sanity as their Psionic Ability, I would of course change their Saving Throw Proficiency from Intelligence to Sanity as well.
The setting involves quite a bit of mind-numbing effects, and succumbing to madness is much more common threat than it is in a regular game.

Of course, since Sanity is a 7th ability score, players are given more points to buy their stats with, or alternatively, they can roll 4d6b3 one more time. I don't think this would make Mystic any more MAD than any other class would be. In fact, Mystic would have a certain edge over other classes due to being the only class proficient with Sanity Saving Throws by default.

[Dracul3S]

I'd suggest to give your players the option to use sanity as casting stat. Ask them which they prefer and why.

[Arkhios]

I'd suggest to give your players the option to use sanity as casting stat. Ask them which they prefer and why.

Actually I already asked them about it, and the answer was that since Mystics are using Psionics as basically "wrestling" with one's own mind, using sanity makes sense.

It just occurred to me that you might have meant using Sanity as Casting stat for other classes than Mystics. If that's right, there's one potentially relevant issue: Most other casting classes are banned from the game. And the few casters that still exist are extremely rare.

[Dracul3S]

Kind of... I did not limit my answer to mystics as I can imagine using different casting stats for other classes as well. My intent, in case it was not clear was to allow player to choose intelligence or sanity as test. Just to find out which one they prefer. It makes more sense to me than just asking and later having no one playing mystics, because no one really wants to play with sanity as a casting stat.

[Hrugner]

Players should need to sacrifice quite a bit to have any resistance to madness in that sort of setting. Letting sanity support a class limits that sacrifice somewhat. I'd be more inclined to put supernatural types more at risk to insanity than normals since they are skirting the edge of reality far more and would come dangerously close to understanding what they are experiencing. My recommendation is to set sanity score at 25 minus all the casting stats for which they have spells or psionic powers.

[Arkhios]

Players should need to sacrifice quite a bit to have any resistance to madness in that sort of setting. Letting sanity support a class limits that sacrifice somewhat. I'd be more inclined to put supernatural types more at risk to insanity than normals since they are skirting the edge of reality far more and would come dangerously close to understanding what they are experiencing. My recommendation is to set sanity score at 25 minus all the casting stats for which they have spells or psionic powers.

So... What you're suggesting is that a Mystic with, say, Int 16 would have sanity score at 9?

I'm sorry, but that's not how I see it. A mystic, having been trained to "skirt the edge of reality" should, in my opinion, have a much better chance at resisting madness and the like than someone who has never seen even once something that would blow his or her mind? Constant practice should, I think, build tolerance, not crumble it.

[Spectre9000]

A mystic gains its powers from beyond the weave, ie. the Void. Sanity makes a lot of sense. Additionally, I would offer the option to GOO Warlocks to use Sanity as their casting stat as well. These are definitely interesting ways to switch up the game. Another idea I have is for characters with Sanity as their casting stat, when their sanity is negatively affected, their spells add certain effects determined by a Wild Magic Surge style table you could make up specifically with psychic and maddening effects; it could make the spells more powerful, have unintended affects, or outright madden your entire party.




On a side note, I'd try to stick to the second revision of the Mystic instead of the new one... the new one is all over the place and very broken in many areas. I'd use this (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2bXgsHg7PtJNEdpNHBVRDVOXzA/view) for completing the second revision.

[Naanomi]

Additionally, I would offer the option to GOO Warlocks to use Sanity as their casting stat as well.
I would think Sanity would hinder a GOOlok's casting, not aid it...

[Millstone85]

Additionally, I would offer the option to GOO Warlocks to use Sanity as their casting stat as well.
I would think Sanity would hinder a GOOlok's casting, not aid it...Yeah, have GOO warlocks substract their Sanity score from 21 and then calculate their spellcasting modifier from that. Or something similar.

I already fluff my warlock's Charisma as the attraction of madness.

[Quoxis]

I would think Sanity would hinder a GOOlok's casting, not aid it...

GOOlocks get their magic from a potentially maddening source, that doesn't mean they need to be mad themselves (yet).
The struggle of keeping your sanity while surrounded by forces your tiny mind would break while trying to understand is the entire point of the call of Cthulhu games, isn't it?
I can definitely see a mentally sane GOOlock.

[Steampunkette]

As you can see, there are quite a few potential uses for Sanity as described in DMG. If Mystic would be given Sanity as their Psionic Ability, I would of course change their Saving Throw Proficiency from Intelligence to Sanity as well.
The setting involves quite a bit of mind-numbing effects, and succumbing to madness is much more common threat than it is in a regular game.

Of course, since Sanity is a 7th ability score, players are given more points to buy their stats with, or alternatively, they can roll 4d6b3 one more time. I don't think this would make Mystic any more MAD than any other class would be. In fact, Mystic would have a certain edge over other classes due to being the only class proficient with Sanity Saving Throws by default.

The three things that are listed for things the player can use sanity for are "Replace Intelligence in a skill check if it falls into a very narrowly defined manner" "Stop being quite so insane since you already have an insanity" and "Learn something you shouldn't know".

As compared to having Knowledge Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion and when you make Investigation checks. It also gives you the Sanity Saving Throw benefit, which is nice? But Intelligence Saves are also still a thing.

Yeah, succumbing to madness is more common than int saves, but you're going to use Investigation and Arcana or Religion with intelligence for a wider array of situations than "Arcana Check with Sanity in it's place".

Also worth noting: What's wrong with an Insane Psychic? Sanity of 6 and Intelligence of 18. Hyper Intelligent but quick to devolve into dementia and such...

http://fandomania.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/fringe-207-1-10.jpg

(Character is brilliant but scatterbrained because in addition to being old he also took ALL OF THE LSD)

[Naanomi]

GOOlocks get their magic from a potentially maddening source, that doesn't mean they need to be mad themselves (yet).
The struggle of keeping your sanity while surrounded by forces your tiny mind would break while trying to understand is the entire point of the call of Cthulhu games, isn't it?
I can definitely see a mentally sane GOOlock.
Well, maybe... I just don't see them getting *weaker* for losing that Sanity per se

[Hrugner]

So... What you're suggesting is that a Mystic with, say, Int 16 would have sanity score at 9?

I'm sorry, but that's not how I see it. A mystic, having been trained to "skirt the edge of reality" should, in my opinion, have a much better chance at resisting madness and the like than someone who has never seen even once something that would blow his or her mind? Constant practice should, I think, build tolerance, not crumble it.

I'm mostly working with how insanity worked in Call of Cthulu. If a character was too stupid to understand what was happening, then they were just running from monsters. The more intelligent they were, the more likely they were to understand what they were seeing and completely lose it. If you shift elder things into the safely knowable, then they're little different from monsters; you can study them safely and make plans to defeat them. CoC tends to treat study and research as an adventure into madness. So yeah, a mystic with int 16 would have a much higher sanity in a real sense as he understands the true nature of the world, but others would think he's nuts and he would be more vulnerable to the madening nature of things beyond the comprehension of his mundane allies.

Obviously it's not the only way to go, but if you're going for a CoC vibe I strongly recommend avoiding making elder things knowable.

[Arkhios]

I'm mostly working with how insanity worked in Call of Cthulu. If a character was too stupid to understand what was happening, then they were just running from monsters. The more intelligent they were, the more likely they were to understand what they were seeing and completely lose it. If you shift elder things into the safely knowable, then they're little different from monsters; you can study them safely and make plans to defeat them. CoC tends to treat study and research as an adventure into madness. So yeah, a mystic with int 16 would have a much higher sanity in a real sense as he understands the true nature of the world, but others would think he's nuts and he would be more vulnerable to the madening nature of things beyond the comprehension of his mundane allies.

Obviously it's not the only way to go, but if you're going for a CoC vibe I strongly recommend avoiding making elder things knowable.

I have little personal knowledge from Call of Cthulhu, aside from knowing that the game exists :smallbiggrin:
I have never read Necronomicon nor anything else from Lovecraft, nor have I played the games, except for one or two boardgames once or twice, but I've still absorbed some of the mythos into the back of my head nevertheless.

So, while I might go with some CoC vibe, it's probably not going to be a driving theme. I'm not quite sure how to describe the theme, really. It's something like post-apocalyptic survival horror.

The classes I've included are as follows:

List of Common Classes
When making a character, you can choose freely from the following classes and their sub-classes:

Artificer. Alchemist (In addition, you have the Ritual Casting feature. Artificers are unable to multiclass; because of reasons.)
Barbarian. Battlerager (open to any race), Berserker, Totem Warrior, Ragechemist.
Fighter. Arcane Archer, Banneret, Battle Master, Champion, Knight, Samurai, Scout (Revised Ranger only).
Monk. Drunken Master, Open Hand, Shadow
Mystic. Any Order. Sanity is your Psionic Ability and you have proficiency in Sanity Saving Throws instead of Intelligence Saving Throws. Mystics are unable to multiclass; because of reasons.
Ranger. Revised version (Beast and Hunter Conclaves only; In addition, you have the Ritual Casting feature).
Rogue. Assassin, Mastermind, Scout, Swashbuckler, Thief
Warlord. Tactician, Tyrant, Vanguard.


List of Uncommon Classes
Alternatively, when making your character, with the DM's approval you may choose from the following classes and their sub-classes:

Artificer. Gunsmith (Templar Background only; In addition, you have the Ritual Casting feature. Artificers are unable to multiclass; because of reasons.)
Cleric. Priest (homebrewed variant) (Templar Background only).
Druid. Circle of the Moon (Shifter only).
Rogue. Inquisitor (Templar Background only)
Sorcerer. Wild Magic only (Wizard spell list only).
Warlock. Ghost in the Machine patron (Changeling only); because of reasons.


Additional trivia:
Wild Magic Surges and Sanity
All magic is handled by the rules as tailored for Sorcereous Origin: Wild Magic, with minor tweaks:
Unless a spell is cast as a ritual, immediately after a spell is cast, the DM rolls a d20 in secret. If he or she rolls a natural 1, he then rolls on the Wild Magic Surge table (PHB pg. 104) to determine which Wild Magic Surge occurs.
Some classes have a semblance of control over the Wild Magic Surges caused by their spells, but even they can't prevent everything (Wild Magic Sorcerer and Priest).
Whenever a Wild Magic Surge occurs, the spellcaster and those within line of sight must succeed on a Sanity saving throw against their own Spellcasting Save DC, or succumb to a short-term madness.
If you are subjected to another Sanity saving throw while affected by a madness, your short-term madness is replaced by a long-term madness, and a long-term madness by an indefinite madness.

Since magic (or rather, spells) behaves like it does, it puts mystics in somewhat special situation, as I don't see psionics as being magic in the same way as spells.