How to combat Blade Magic

[kuhaica]

So, the book of nine swords has finally made its appearance in my current campaign and the player who brought it to light had made quite the powerful character. A little too powerful I believe but that is an at the table discussion as I've yet to see the character sheet, seeing as I trust my players not to cheat. But that's besides the point, which the insanity of what I've witnessed from a well made lvl 4 warblade/sword sage (I do not yet know the exact class levels), dealing upwards of 50+ damage in a single round, plus being able to roll a 38 with negatives applied. Its a little concerning seeing as the world is low magic and none of the other players are nearly as good as metamaxing a character.

Now, I know the metamaxing aspect here is an at the table problem and I need little help in this regard. However, I need help with two things, one. Is it even physically possible for a Lvl 4 as a Warblade and Sword Sage to deal 50+ Damage in a single turn. And is it possible for them to roll 38 or higher to hit. And some quick information that I know.


Race Halfling
Level 4
Classes Warblade and Sword Sage
Two-Weapon Fighting Feat
Dagger User
Desert Wind and Shadow Hand

The other side to this and the more important one for me as a DM who focuses on Story is "How would nations combat blade magic?" combating standard magic I find far easier and straight forward, but blade magic is different and from all of my readings in 'the book of nine swords' Its not really magic. And what I've so far found that the best method to counter it, is to use it. The famous "Fight fire with fire" but for a story, I find this lacking.

Hence me coming here for ideas within the already established rules on how people would combat blade magic other then it being uncommon and so an after thought. So, any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Red Fel]

Pick any of the things that actual magic can do way better. You know, flight, invisibility, minionmancy, teleportation, mind control, ranged blasting, the list goes on. "Blade magic" abilities, for the most part, make the character more capable in melee combat. That's about it. There are a few tricks that make them decent at archery, but they're high-level and highly specialized. ToB classes still can't dig into the typical spellcaster shtick mentioned above. So the best way to fight it is with actual spells.

As for whether a level 4 multiclass character can be hitting those numbers? It's tricky, but I think it's unlikely. I mean, if he's using a whole bunch of things, it's possible, I think, but he'd have to be pretty strongly minmaxing. That said, my eyebrow is seriously raised. It's possible that he dipped one class, and has taken three levels of the other, and that he thinks that lets him progress both classes' maneuvers - he's wrong on that point. And even if he had three levels in one of those classes, that would still only unlock second-level maneuvers; very few of them have the kind of power he's throwing around.

One other point is your own familiarity with the book. Admittedly, the editing is terrible, but you really do need to familiarize yourself with it if you intend to allow it at your table. It's a great book, it's a fun system, and it helps melee become more playable. It's a shame that your first introduction to it is through a minmaxer who may not be playing quite fair.

[Venger]

So, the book of nine swords has finally made its appearance in my current campaign and the player who brought it to light had made quite the powerful character. A little too powerful I believe but that is an at the table discussion as I've yet to see the character sheet, seeing as I trust my players not to cheat. But that's besides the point, which the insanity of what I've witnessed from a well made lvl 4 warblade/sword sage (I do not yet know the exact class levels), dealing upwards of 50+ damage in a single round, plus being able to roll a 38 with negatives applied. Its a little concerning seeing as the world is low magic and none of the other players are nearly as good as metamaxing a character.
It's important for a gm to see all his characters' sheets. not because asking that is itself an accusation of cheating, but so you can make sure you understand all the powers and stuff he has (and if not, ask him to explain it to you) and catch some errors which may be earnest.


Now, I know the metamaxing aspect here is an at the table problem and I need little help in this regard. However, I need help with two things, one. Is it even physically possible for a Lvl 4 as a Warblade and Sword Sage to deal 50+ Damage in a single turn. And is it possible for them to roll 38 or higher to hit. And some quick information that I know.
Yes.

Also yes.

It's tricky, but it's possible.


The other side to this and the more important one for me as a DM who focuses on Story is "How would nations combat blade magic?" combating standard magic I find far easier and straight forward, but blade magic is different and from all of my readings in 'the book of nine swords' Its not really magic. And what I've so far found that the best method to counter it, is to use it. The famous "Fight fire with fire" but for a story, I find this lacking.


Pick any of the things that actual magic can do way better. You know, flight, invisibility, minionmancy, teleportation, mind control, ranged blasting, the list goes on. "Blade magic" abilities, for the most part, make the character more capable in melee combat. That's about it. There are a few tricks that make them decent at archery, but they're high-level and highly specialized. ToB classes still can't dig into the typical spellcaster shtick mentioned above. So the best way to fight it is with actual spells.
yeah this will definitely beat any initiator, but for the most part, they don't need to be specially targeted. any given encounter will hit them as hard as anybody else.



As for whether a level 4 multiclass character can be hitting those numbers? It's tricky, but I think it's unlikely. I mean, if he's using a whole bunch of things, it's possible, I think, but he'd have to be pretty strongly minmaxing. That said, my eyebrow is seriously raised. It's possible that he dipped one class, and has taken three levels of the other, and that he thinks that lets him progress both classes' maneuvers - he's wrong on that point. And even if he had three levels in one of those classes, that would still only unlock second-level maneuvers; very few of them have the kind of power he's throwing around.
this is probably what happened. I'd advise asking him to walk you through how he's hitting these numbers and to explain his sheet to you since you're not familiar with the system.


One other point is your own familiarity with the book. Admittedly, the editing is terrible, but you really do need to familiarize yourself with it if you intend to allow it at your table. It's a great book, it's a fun system, and it helps melee become more playable. It's a shame that your first introduction to it is through a minmaxer who may not be playing quite fair.
while it's nominally a new system, there really aren't any new rules introduced. if you can understand spells, you can understand maneuvers.

I'm a little unsure of how he was able to do this during play without you knowing what he did. when he targets an enemy, doesn't he give you a breakdown of what maneuvers he's expending and such? or does your table just have the players tabulate the numbers on their own and then give you the total?

e.g.
"I attack the bandit. 38 to-hit and 50+ damage"
vs
"I'm initiating sapphire nightmare blade. 38 to-hit and 50+ damage"

I suspect it's the former. if the latter still leaves you with some questions, just ask the player to break it down for you. as a minmaxer, I like showing off all the bonuses I can stack to various stats. plus it'll help you understand how he's getting these numbers and if he's made some mistakes in his math (honestly or maliciously)

this'll let you figure out whether he's adding bonuses that overlap, misunderstanding how maneuvers work, or something else.

without knowing all the specifics, my guess is that he confused the effects for ruby nightmare blade (which allows you to deal double damage) and sapphire nightmare blade (which gives +1d6 bonus damage) though I'm not sure what specifically he's using to get that high a to-hit. it's probably equipment-based.

[Flickerdart]

One mistake he might be making is thinking that being level 4 means he can take 4th level maneuvers. But it works like spells - a 4th level swordsage can only select 2nd level maneuvers.

[OldTrees1]

If I understand correctly:
You want to have some explanation for why armies of martial non-ToB soldiers can hold their own against an army that contains some ToB soldiers? (If you mean squad vs squad rather than army vs army the answer is similar at the depth I will talk about)


The major concerns you cited are:
1) A potential damage. Warning: Potential damage is misleading and rarely has any meaning that average/expected damage does not convey.
2) A potential attack roll value. Warning: Potential vs expected as before. However also there is no reward for excess with attack rolls. What matters is the hit chance not the attack roll value.


Disrupt: (Goliath Barbarian 1 / Fighter 2)
Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy, Extra Rage, Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Knockback
Charge Attack +7/+7, Damage 2d6+9, Bullrush +15

Stabilize: (Goliath Barbarian 2 / Fighter 1)
Mountain Rage, Extra Rage, Wolf Totem:Improved Trip, Combat reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Opportunity Attack +9(limit 3), Trip +14, Attack +9, Damage 2d4+9

[Dagroth]

Light weapons with Weapon Finesse... gives you +5 to hit max.
Any mix of the two classes gives you +3 BAB max.
Masterwork Weapon gives you +1 to hit.
Weapon Focus (from Swordsage) gives you +1 to hit.

4th level gives you a maximum of +11 Concentration, so you're only hitting 31 with Sapphire Nightmare Blade.

4th level gives you a maximum of +11 Knowledge (for Knowledge Devotion). With a roll of 20, that (barely) gives you +4/+4, but that's costing you a lot of skill points or just getting lucky by having the one (or two) right Knowledge Skills.

So far, I can get +14 to hit.

Steely Strike gives +4 to hit, gives opponents +4 to hit you. First level Iron Heart maneuver.
Rabid Wolf Strike gives +4 to hit, +2d6 damage, gives -4 AC. Second level Tiger Claw maneuver.

So yeah, I can hit 38. Admittedly, it takes 2 20s (a roll of 31 is the minimum for +4/+4 with Knowledge Devotion) and fighting just the right type of enemies (you're not going to have all the Knowledge Skills with only those two classes).

For the damage, again trying to reach maximum: Burning Blade (Desert Wind) boost does +1d6 Fire +1/Initiator Level for every attack. Punishing Stance (Iron Heart) gives +1d6 per attack, but -2 AC.
Shadow Blade gives Dex to Damage for +5

So, Small Shortsword 1d4+2d6+3 (assuming 3rd level Swordsage/1st level Warblade or 2 & 2) +5 (Dex) +4 (Knowledge). On average, that's 21 points per hit. Max of 28 points per hit.

So again, do-able... but requires seriously focusing on damage (penalizing AC again) and having lucky rolls.

Only needs 3 Feats: Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade & Knowledge Devotion.

Edit: Note that I didn't assume he got the 38 to hit on the same round he got over 50 points of damage.

[Rebel7284]

While it's admirable that you trust your players, it's always good to at least take a quick look at the character sheet to make sure a) The character is in line with the rest of the party b) Understanding of class features that require certain things to exist in-game (membership in organizations,etc) c) Quick check for errors.

There is nothing I know that gives that high of an attack bonus at level 4. There is Emerald Razor that allows attacking the touch AC, but that only works on one attack.

As far as dealing damage, let's see,

- Flashing Sun lets you flurry
- Shadow Blade feat allows you to add Dex to damage

With high enough stats and lucky rolls, you can hit 50 sometimes.

Alternatively, is the player crit-fishing the local squirrel population with Blood in the Water stance on?

Anyway, I can keep theorycrafting for a while, but ultimately, ask your player how he's doing it. Most likely he is making some sort of error.

Edit: I was looking at Punishing Stance too, but that doesn't work with Shadow Blade.

[Venger]

Light weapons with Weapon Finesse... gives you +5 to hit max.
Any mix of the two classes gives you +3 BAB max.
Masterwork Weapon gives you +1 to hit.
Weapon Focus (from Swordsage) gives you +1 to hit.

4th level gives you a maximum of +11 Concentration, so you're only hitting 31 with Sapphire Nightmare Blade.

4th level gives you a maximum of +11 Knowledge (for Knowledge Devotion). With a roll of 20, that (barely) gives you +4/+4, but that's costing you a lot of skill points or just getting lucky by having the one (or two) right Knowledge Skills.

So far, I can get +14 to hit.

Steely Strike gives +4 to hit, gives opponents +4 to hit you. First level Iron Heart maneuver.
Rabid Wolf Strike gives +4 to hit, +2d6 damage, gives -4 AC. Second level Tiger Claw maneuver.

So yeah, I can hit 38. Admittedly, it takes 2 20s (a roll of 31 is the minimum for +4/+4 with Knowledge Devotion) and fighting just the right type of enemies (you're not going to have all the Knowledge Skills with only those two classes).

For the damage, again trying to reach maximum: Burning Blade (Desert Wind) boost does +1d6 Fire +1/Initiator Level for every attack. Punishing Stance (Iron Heart) gives +1d6 per attack, but -2 AC.
Shadow Blade gives Dex to Damage for +5

So, Small Shortsword 1d4+2d6+3 (assuming 3rd level Swordsage/1st level Warblade or 2 & 2) +5 (Dex) +4 (Knowledge). On average, that's 21 points per hit. Max of 28 points per hit.

So again, do-able... but requires seriously focusing on damage (penalizing AC again) and having lucky rolls.

Only needs 3 Feats: Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade & Knowledge Devotion.
that's some good math. agree wholeheartedly.

7 of the concentration mod come from ranks. are the other 4 assumed to be con? a little bit of wiggle room could be had if the player had a masterwork tool to con or (as I suspect) a custom +x competence item. this way he wouldn't only succeed with very high rolls.

3 feats by lvl 4 are possible assuming he's a strongheart halfling without getting into whether flaws were allowed in the game.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I agree that the player is most likely either misinterpreting something or straight-out cheating, but it's not impossible.

That aside Martial Adepts aren't much more difficult to fight than normal melee combined with a bit of blaster mage, with the exception of counters.
They do get some abilities native that other melee has to get from items (blindsight, spiderclimb, flying, things like that). If you don't give those things to your NPCs your party may be in for a rude surprise, but as a DM it should be nothing new.
They have more mobility because they don't need to full attack, but aside from that their attacks are still melee attacks. Some hit two enemies, some have rider effects, some maneuvers are more like blasting spells, they have boosts for short-term buffs, but that's about it. Not nearly as troublesome as spellcasters.

The only real big difference is that they start out pretty much "pre-optimized" - other melee needs some knowledge and book diving to become really impressive, ToB classes are pretty decent out of the box - and that counters grant vastly superior defense in 1on1 battles (you can only use 1 counter per round).

[mabriss lethe]

When you take it down to brass tacks, initiators can't really do anything all that much better than their mundane counterparts. What they can do, is perform a wider variety of actions competently with fewer dedicated resources and improve the functionality of more mundane mechanics. A run of the mill initiator won't generally be as good at specific tasks as focused builds, but they have most of the tools to fill the role well enough, and several others besides. They'll also be perfectly playable regardless of equipment.

Given what I know about how ToB material plays at the table, I'd definitely come down on the side of the player doing something fishy, as opposed to it being an inherent part of the system. He might be taking advantage of your lack of familiarity to pull a fast one, or he might simply have misinterpreted something in the rules.

How to answer blade magic in your campaign world: Well, you really don't have to do much. Only a few disciplines are inherently, obviously supernatural in the first place. Most are explicitly EX abilities and just throw around the term "blade magic" for the ease of mechanical comparison to the 9 spell levels of standard magic. ToB maneuvers make the wielder reliably good in combat, and that's about it. Anything non-combat related is pretty much unchanged. There might be some social repercussions, both positive and negative, for associating with a given type of knowledge or group. As for tactical considerations in combat, Just do what you would do anyway. Action economy and attrition will do in an initiator on the battlefield as well as it will a fighter or barbarian.

[kuhaica]

Thanks for the replys and suggestions. I was planning on relearning the Tomb of Battle as I've had little need to play from it as the groups I play with don't even know it exists. And this is the first player in many years that's played a class from it. But I should diffently relearn it due to this.

And as to the character in question. The player is well versed in the rules and knows how to metamax efficiently. However they generally don't due to the group. Which is why I've been caught off guard by this sudden turn of events. I've already been forced to crank the CR of fights and seperate the group during combat to give others the chance to shine. Thankfully the player likes to play niche characters and doesn't hog the spotlight. Otherwise I would be concerned.

However I feel the point raised that I should look over character sheets sometimes is a valid one. While I like to promote a trustful atmosphere, it's a two way street. And I'm greatly appreciative of th3 information about the likeness of the damage done and the attack rolls. It's nice to know it's possible and not out right cheating. Even if the numbers being crunched have me worried non Alis.

Finally as said before I'll familiarize myself once more with ToB and have him call out his stances and maneuvers. I'm fairly sure he already does, but just to be on the safe side. And again, thanks for all the helpful comments.

[Psyren]

While it's admirable that you trust your players, it's always good to at least take a quick look at the character sheet to make sure a) The character is in line with the rest of the party b) Understanding of class features that require certain things to exist in-game (membership in organizations,etc) c) Quick check for errors.

There is nothing I know that gives that high of an attack bonus at level 4. There is Emerald Razor that allows attacking the touch AC, but that only works on one attack.

As far as dealing damage, let's see,

- Flashing Sun lets you flurry
- Shadow Blade feat allows you to add Dex to damage

With high enough stats and lucky rolls, you can hit 50 sometimes.

Alternatively, is the player crit-fishing the local squirrel population with Blood in the Water stance on?

Anyway, I can keep theorycrafting for a while, but ultimately, ask your player how he's doing it. Most likely he is making some sort of error.

Edit: I was looking at Punishing Stance too, but that doesn't work with Shadow Blade.

This. Even if he's not cheating making a mistake somewhere, you should still know what's going on in his sheet - simply saying "it's still weaker than the average spellcaster on this forum" is meaningless when what really matters is the optimization level of the other players at your table. Audit his character and, if it's all legit, compare it to what everyone else is capable of, then roll up your sleeves and make adjustments - beefing them up, toning him down, or both.

[flappeercraft]

The simple answer on how to combat blade magic is ranged attacks. All ToB is concentrated on melee so if they can't get close enough to you to attack you, they're done.

[Darrin]

Is it even physically possible for a Lvl 4 as a Warblade and Sword Sage to deal 50+ Damage in a single turn. And is it possible for them to roll 38 or higher to hit.


This sounds fishy to me. At best, he should have 2nd level maneuvers, and most of those don't get much higher than +2d6 as bonus damage. Assuming he's using Shadow Blade to add both Str and Dex to damage, Dex might be 20ish, so +5 damage, and Str is probably not that high, maybe +2? (I'm just guessing based on what most point buy arrays look like.) TWF at level 4 is one primary and one offhand attack, so my guess would be damage for two daggers hitting should be around 19-20ish on average, maybe 27 if he's got +2d6 from somewhere. Was the 50+ damage on a crit? If so, then he may not be multiplying correctly... extra dice are never multiplied, but a damage modifier (such as from Shadow Blade) would be. But if he's mostly Dex-based, then I'm not sure where he'd be getting multipliers from... most of those involve Power Attack or charging. Power Attack doesn't work with daggers, and unless he's got pounce from somewhere, charging and TWF don't exactly mix. In order to use Shadow Blade, he needs to be in a Shadow Hand stance, and right now the only two that should be available to him are Island of Blades (+2 flanking bonus) or Child of Shadow (grants concealment if you move).

I would suspect:

He may be miscalculating his Initiator Level (IL) or misread which level of maneuvers he can get, and thinks he can use Assassin's Stance (he can't... Swordsage 5 can take this stance, but a Warblade/Swordsage mix wouldn't have a high enough IL until 6th or 7th level.)

He may be in a different stance, such as Punishing Stance, and not realize that this doesn't work with Shadow Blade. Burning Blade + Punishing Stance is at least +2d6 damage +1/IL, but then he can't use Shadow Blade for Dex damage, as Punishing Stance isn't in the Shadow Hand discipline.

He may not be multiplying correctly. Burning Blade, for example, adds +1d6 fire damage, and +1 damage per IL. Only the +1/IL gets multiplied on a crit. (There's still debate about this, as ToB says on one page that bonus damage from maneuvers can't be multiplied on a crit, and then it says "treat it like sneak attack" in the very next sentence.)

He may be confused about his refresh mechanics, and may be using his Warbade refresh to recover Swordsage maneuvers. This doesn't work, as Warblade can only recover Warblade maneuvers, and Swordsages have the worst recovery mechanic of the three: full round action to recover one single maneuver. Even if he took Adaptive Style, it's still extremely costly from an action economy standpoint: one full round of doing nothing to get all your maneuvers back. Feats get very tight on a Swordsage... if he's got Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, and TWF on a level 4 build, even with Strongheart Halfling there's not much room for anything else without loading down on flaws.

Rolling 38 to hit... I'm not sure there's any maneuver in ToB that adds an attack bonus greater than +5.

I think it's more than reasonable to ask him to walk you through his modifiers.



The other side to this and the more important one for me as a DM who focuses on Story is "How would nations combat blade magic?" combating standard magic I find far easier and straight forward, but blade magic is different and from all of my readings in 'the book of nine swords' Its not really magic. And what I've so far found that the best method to counter it, is to use it. The famous "Fight fire with fire" but for a story, I find this lacking.


From a narrative standpoint, yes, you would counter a Martial Adept with another Martial Adept. Most likely, from a competing school, a broken master/student relationship, or just a simple "Let's see who's Kung Fu is strongest, grasshopper!" If you can tell us what maneuvers he's relying on most, then this forum can design you a rough "villain" build to challenge him. Or heck, just a Warforged Lockdown Crusader would take him (or any other Martial Adept) down a peg until he learned to adapt.

As far as nations go... there's not much in ToB that can trump "high level wizard selects one of his several dozen 'I WIN' buttons."

[Dagroth]

Thanks for the replys and suggestions. I was planning on relearning the Tomb of Battle as I've had little need to play from it as the groups I play with don't even know it exists. And this is the first player in many years that's played a class from it. But I should diffently relearn it due to this.

And as to the character in question. The player is well versed in the rules and knows how to metamax efficiently. However they generally don't due to the group. Which is why I've been caught off guard by this sudden turn of events. I've already been forced to crank the CR of fights and seperate the group during combat to give others the chance to shine. Thankfully the player likes to play niche characters and doesn't hog the spotlight. Otherwise I would be concerned.

However I feel the point raised that I should look over character sheets sometimes is a valid one. While I like to promote a trustful atmosphere, it's a two way street. And I'm greatly appreciative of th3 information about the likeness of the damage done and the attack rolls. It's nice to know it's possible and not out right cheating. Even if the numbers being crunched have me worried non Alis.

Finally as said before I'll familiarize myself once more with ToB and have him call out his stances and maneuvers. I'm fairly sure he already does, but just to be on the safe side. And again, thanks for all the helpful comments.

If he's using Knowledge Devotion, he's using Knowledge: Local to get the benefit against Humanoids. Undead, especially Undead with 5 Fire Resist (or Skeletons, who have DR/Bludgeoning) should slow him down considerably.

Also, since he's probably primarily using maneuvers from Swordsage, having more than a small handful of foes will run him out of maneuvers pretty quick.

If the party lacks a true Cleric, a troop of 8 CR1 Skeletons could give the party a surprising amount of trouble. Throw in a Level 2 Evil Cleric to bolster the Undead against Turning and then it doesn't matter as much if they have a Cleric.

Edit: I forgot that he couldn't use Punishing Stance & Shadow Blade at the same time... but then again, I wasn't calculating Critical Hits which would up his max damage a noticeable amount (+5 from Shadow Blade, +3 or +4 from Knowledge Devotion... easily making up for Punishing Stance).

[Psyren]

You could also challenge a martial adept with other T3 martial/gish builds. For example, a Glaivelock, Totemist or Psywar could challenge an initiator decently well while also having nasty tricks of their own.

This is getting into arms-race territory though, especially if the other players aren't running builds with similar depth.

[kuhaica]

You could also challenge a martial adept with other T3 martial/gish builds. For example, a Glaivelock, Totemist or Psywar could challenge an initiator decently well while also having nasty tricks of their own.

This is getting into arms-race territory though, especially if the other players aren't running builds with similar depth.

This is my biggest concern, in comparison between this player and the other players are them all doing Fighter, Rouge and Ranger. With a single horribly made bard and a single decent made primary healer class. This was my doing as all the players are not well versed in the rules of 3.5 and its a low magic campaign. So most of the players are still dealing low damage. Then comes in a well made character who is a T2 compared to everyone else who are T5. That's what it feels like.

And I don't want to be forced to enhance the other players with magic items, or beef up encounters due to a single player with a stronger build. It ruins the game for everyone else.

[Dagroth]

Just remember that the Rogue doesn't run out of Sneak Attack, but the Swordsage does run out of maneuvers during a single encounter.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is my biggest concern, in comparison between this player and the other players are them all doing Fighter, Rouge and Ranger. With a single horribly made bard and a single decent made primary healer class. This was my doing as all the players are not well versed in the rules of 3.5 and its a low magic campaign. So most of the players are still dealing low damage. Then comes in a well made character who is a T2 compared to everyone else who are T5. That's what it feels like.

And I don't want to be forced to enhance the other players with magic items, or beef up encounters due to a single player with a stronger build. It ruins the game for everyone else.
Yeah. Tome of Battle, for all its virtues, has a VERY high floor. It plays poorly with normal martial types in particular, but the problem is doubled when you're comparing an UNOPTIMIZED Barbarian, say, to any sort of Warblade.

While I agree that your player is probably either goofing up somewhere, you're possibly best off either asking him or the others to reroll. At the very least, he could go pure Swordsage, which is certainly the best balanced of the three ToB options.

[Aetis]

Martial characters that use ToB are going to blow martial characters that are not using ToB out of the water.

Either get everyone (and I mean PCs, NPCs, Monsters, everyone) to use ToB, or just ban the book.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Just remember that the Rogue doesn't run out of Sneak Attack, but the Swordsage does run out of maneuvers during a single encounter.
Even if he does by that time the encounter will be mostly over. Not to mention that any kind of min-maxer probably has Adaptive Style.
In the OPs case the character is also a Warblade/Swordsage multiclass, so it's unlikely he'll run out in most encounters, and Warblade maneuvers are easy enough to recover.


Martial characters that use ToB are going to blow martial characters that are not using ToB out of the water.

Either get everyone (and I mean PCs, NPCs, Monsters, everyone) to use ToB, or just ban the book.
I disagree. ToB characters work fine with non-ToB mundanes as long as the party has a certain level of optimization, and even non-ToB characters can benefit greatly from either dipping ToB classes or getting feats/items.
It's a great book and banning it would be a shame.

They just have to know the options are there, which it sounds like the other players in the OPs group don't.
In a case like this i'd put the responsibility on the optimizing player to keep to the level of the party or at least have the decency to play a buffer/support character - he does have the knowledge and experience and i don't believe for a second that he didn't expect the power disparity - and on the DM to check the players charsheets pre-game to avoid precisely this kind of imbalance.

There's a merit in limiting books on a "for now" basis to allow new players to find their feet, but that's a different thing.
It'd probably be more rewarding for a new player to start off with a ToB class if he doesn't want to be a caster, but that's just my opinion. Unoptimized core-melee just isn't all that fun to play imo, and ToB is easy enough to understand.

[Aetis]

We seemed to be agreeing on everything except whether to ban the book.

[sleepyphoenixx]

We seemed to be agreeing on everything except whether to ban the book.

I don't agree with blanket bans in general.
If one of your players is better at optimizing than the others it's on him to keep it to a level where everyone can have fun.
It's part of a DMs job to look over the players builds and address any issues before the game starts.

For me the only reason as a DM to ban entire books is if you don't know the material. Everything else is judged on a case-by-case basis.

[DarkSoul]

Regarding the character sheets, I agree that you should ask for a copy. I run a game on Roll20 and ask that all my players maintain a character sheet on Myth-Weavers. I want to be able to look at their sheets whenever I plan encounters to make sure I'm not throwing impossible save DCs or armor classes at them. I also want to review spell books, class abilities, etc., on my own time to remind myself what the players have access to.

There's nothing at all wrong with a DM wanting to see someone's sheet, and to know how the player thinks everything works.

[Metahuman1]

Martial characters that use ToB are going to blow martial characters that are not using ToB out of the water.

Either get everyone (and I mean PCs, NPCs, Monsters, everyone) to use ToB, or just ban the book.

This is something I would generally recommend against.


Even assuming you don't mean none caster focused builds like Wildshape Druid/Ranger, DMM Cleric, Gish arcane builds, or none standard gishes like competent Tash builds or Duskblades, there are plenty of less flashy martial builds that can keep pace with them. Give a ranger a reasonable way to pay for power attack, Hank's Energy bow, and that AFC from dungeon scape that gives trap finding, or give him a swift hunter build. Give a paladin the paladin of freedom variant and a small race and mounted combat with a lance and way to pay of power attack. Then give them both spell compendium.

Barbarian? Give it trap smasher, Wolf totem, Spirit Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy and a means to pay or power attack. Maybe leap attack and Tireles.

Fighter? Make it bigger then normal and give it dungeon crasher and build around Bulls Rushing.

You can keep the none primary casting martials up with the Tome of Battle for the most part. Just takes a bit of work.



Other classes, Bard, Factotum, Binder, Totemist, Incarnate, Warlock, Dragon Fire Adept, Dusk Blade, Psi-warrior, Psi-Rogue, Ardent, Shugenja, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, A well built Warmage or Wilder, don't usually need that much help to keep up. Just the least bit of thought.

Sorcerers, Wizards, Druids, Clerics, Mystic and/or Wilidshape Rangers with even slightly competent construction, Artificers, Erudites, Psions, Wu Gen's, Spirit Shamens, Favor Souls and Archivists should generally have it even easier. Particularly if you don't have 4 or more encounters for them per day and don't rig the encounters up to take 25% or more of daily resources each. More so if you offer one or two none combat challenges that they have the tools to circumvent and/or tend ot offer more time to rest/craft items/take a ten or a twenty on skill checks and don't penalize nat 1's on skill checks.


It's really not at all hard. Just requires a few moments of thought before the game starts at most.

[Remuko]

Regarding the character sheets, I agree that you should ask for a copy. I run a game on Roll20 and ask that all my players maintain a character sheet on Myth-Weavers. I want to be able to look at their sheets whenever I plan encounters to make sure I'm not throwing impossible save DCs or armor classes at them. I also want to review spell books, class abilities, etc., on my own time to remind myself what the players have access to.

There's nothing at all wrong with a DM wanting to see someone's sheet, and to know how the player thinks everything works.

Why require mythweavers? Every game I've played on Roll20 used in-program character sheets that worked just fine and that the DM has to hand out and can always view themself, thus no need for an external mythweavers sheet.

[Zombimode]

Martial characters that use ToB are going to blow martial characters that are not using ToB out of the water.

Either get everyone (and I mean PCs, NPCs, Monsters, everyone) to use ToB, or just ban the book.

Eh, not really. There are countless ways of building martial characters that can keep up with ToB characters.

If a player doesn't really know what they are doing then yes, a ToB character will blow out a non-ToB martial.

ToB is easy. It is not necessarily better.

Get gud :smalltongue:

To the Topic at Hand: yeah, let the Player walk you through how they achieve the numbers. Most likely they messed up at some point.
Thats ok, though. It happens. Some players, even if enthusiatic about the mechanical aspects of the game, have the uncanning ability to misread rules.

[Telonius]

ToB classes have a pretty high floor, but a low-ish ceiling. It's really hard to screw them up completely. They don't completely replace the melees though; each one still has a bit of their shtick that ToB doesn't copy well. Crusaders don't get the mounts or spells that Paladin gets. Warblade doesn't have as many feats to play around with as Fighter. Nobody gets the Rage options that Barbarian gets. Swordsages don't get the Trapfinding options or piles of skill points like Rogues. Swordsage also doesn't come with the endless horde of people claiming they can beat Wizards that seems to be the Monk's defining trait.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The problem isn't so much the ToB-and-non-ToB martials in the same party, it's the ToB-and-non-OPTIMIZED martials in the same party. I don't think anyone is arguing that you can't build a Ranger who can feel like they're keeping up with a Warblade, or a Rogue who feels like the Swordsage isn't overshadowing them; the problem is that doing so takes a non-trivial amount of system mastery, and kuhaica's players are "not well versed in the rules of 3.5." We who spend our free time hanging out on gaming forums forget just how overwhelming character creation can be. Yes, handbooks exists, but throwing a huge load of jargon and technical detail at new/inexperienced players is not likely to help. (For comparison purposes, go look at some help threads for a rules-heavy system you don't know well-- an Exalted 2e handbook, say). It's possible to build a conventional martial character to most any power level, yes; it's almost impossible to build a ToB guy to "vanilla Fighter" levels. That's why I suggested rerolling.

[Aetis]

If a player doesn't really know what they are doing then yes, a ToB character will blow out a non-ToB martial.

Do the OP's players sound like players who know what they are doing?

Honestly, it sounds like they had a good game going with bunch of unoptimized martials before one guy decided to use ToB.

Just drop the book. The OP clearly isn't thrilled about seeing that kind of numbers on his table.

I don't see why everyone insists forcing the use of ToB to the OP's players.

[Rerednaw]

Party is Tier 5-6.

ToB is Tier 3.

If the min-maxer is getting the rules wrong, then he's borderline Tier 2.

Don't ban, I prefer learning it. Also +1 to having the character audited, if we go with myth-weavers.com then all of us can go over it and see if there are mistakes.

[Psyren]

This is my biggest concern, in comparison between this player and the other players are them all doing Fighter, Rouge and Ranger. With a single horribly made bard and a single decent made primary healer class. This was my doing as all the players are not well versed in the rules of 3.5 and its a low magic campaign. So most of the players are still dealing low damage. Then comes in a well made character who is a T2 compared to everyone else who are T5. That's what it feels like.

And I don't want to be forced to enhance the other players with magic items, or beef up encounters due to a single player with a stronger build. It ruins the game for everyone else.

Easiest solution is to have him reroll to something weaker. Explain that you have nothing against ToB, it's just that you want to keep the party more or less in line. Maybe let him/them grab some Martial Study feats or scripts or something rather than being a full-blown Initiator(s).

The more difficult solution is to power everyone else up to his level.

Whichever way you choose, the end result should be you'll have a party at a single optimization level that you can then challenge appropriately.

[AslanCross]

I would suggest learning the specifics of his build. As some have mentioned it might really be a mistake and not an outright hack.

[Particle_Man]

Race Halfling
Level 4
Classes Warblade and Sword Sage
Two-Weapon Fighting Feat
Dagger User
Desert Wind and Shadow Hand
.


I would suggest learning the specifics of his build.

Agreed.

First of all, many maneuvers are standard actions, rather than attacks. This may not seem like much of a difference before BAB +6, but it is when you dealing with a Two-Weapon Fighter, who would normally be taking full-round actions to do a full attack (and note that even maneuvers that are full round actions are not the same full round actions that a full attack is, so one cannot do both in the same round unless the maneuver specifically says so). Feats that grant extra attacks don't combine with maneuvers without specific exceptions listed in those maneuvers. So you usually cannot have the halfling do "Maneuver A of Doooooom" with the left hand and "Maneuver B of Destructioooooooon" with the right hand. Actually, I think that two-weapon fighting is probably a wasted feat for this halfling if it is using strikes (the usual type of maneuvers). In general feats don't combine well with maneuvers. See pp. 42- 43 for more info.

Second, if the character is multi-classed then they will have access to more maneuvers, but they will be even lower level. Assuming a level 2 warblade/level 2 swordsage, they will mostly have level 1 maneuvers with a few level 2 maneuvers in either the warblade class or the swordsage class but not both.

Third, the character will have 2-3 stances, which are awesome, except that a character can only be in one stance at a time.

Fourth, barring the character having the adaptive style feat, they have to recover their maneuvers in combat when they are expended before those maneuvers can be used again in that combat. Make sure the player is keeping track of this. The warblade maneuvers shouldn't be too hard to recover, but the swordsage maneuvers are painfully slow to recover (so much so that most people playing swordsages take the adaptive style feat). As a level 4 halfling with the 2 weapon fighting feat, what is that character's other feat? It might be shadow blade or adaptive style but unless you allow more feats (through flaws or whatever) it won't be both.

Fifth, Desert Wind and Shadow Hand are disciplines available to the swordsage for when the character advances those class levels. Neither discipline, however, is available to a warblade for when the character advances those class levels. Either your player is picking maneuvers for the warblade class that they are not allowed, or the player has not informed you of their other disciplines' maneuvers chosen as a warblade. Anyhow, what are the maneuvers picked by that character (and feel free to ask which ones were picked for each class.

Sixth, there is a difference between Maneuvers known (those would be in the two "spellbooks in the characters subconscious" for warblade and swordsage maneuvers, respectively) and Maneuvers readied (those would be the "maneuvers available at the beginning of an encounter"). That means they cannot use every maneuver they know in combat (again, Adaptive Style is a feat that gets around this limitation, by allowing a character to "reready" maneuvers in the middle of a combat).

So yeah, I would ask for a breakdown of that character's maneuvers known for both classes, maneuvers readied for both classes, and feats (and skill point allocations).

[Telok]

In my experience ToB classes are generally great duelists and single/few target combatants. Given 8 or 12 guys with Phalanx Fighting they really aren't any better off than the PH warriors. The only exceptions being a few of the Desert Wind area effects and a very small number of Iron Heart attacks.

About the only set up that deals well with lots of enemies is a Combat Expertise + Pearl of Black Doubt character who uses AoOs to become untouchable while whittling the numbers down or running past to hit a back rank caster.

[Phaederkiel]

To the OP:

Is that damage value and that to-hit something he really pulled off, or his theoretical ceiling?
Even more important: does he pull that of with any kind of consistance?

Most ofthe usual suspects to boost the damage have already been called out


burning blade (could do 1d6+3)
Knowledge devotion (could give +3 / +4)
Shadow blade (Could give +5)



I feel there is only one missing


Assassins stance (which is compatible with Shadow blade, gives +2d6 sneak) EDIT: Particle man is right, the player cannot have that yet.


As long as he does 2 attacks, be it by maneuver or by full attack, 50 is very possible. I had a swordsage in my group who did the burning blade / assassins stance / wolf fang strike combo and dealt some 45+ dmg at lvl 5 consistently. Did not even need Shadow blade or knowledge devotion.

There is also the possibility that he has some weapon with a high crit multiplier and just got some luck
An crit with a pickaxe for example can easily breach 50 if knowledge devotion and burning blade and some strength are involved.

I do not like to believe in 38 to hit. At least not combined with the damage output. It is certainly not impossible, but it smells like cheese.

To finish, let me point out that there are other types of melee that can put out 50 in a round quite easily at lvl 4. Halfling barbarian/fighter on a riding dog, with a lance, doing spirited charges, anyone?

[Particle_Man]

4th character level is too low to get Assassin's Stance though.

[Particle_Man]

Oh and to the OP: Changing a stance is a swift action, so is activating many of the boosts (other boosts are activated by immediate actions (using an immediate action between turns in effect prevent use from using swift action during your coming turn).

The upshot - you can only do that sort of thing once per round.

[Particle_Man]

Also, the 4th level halfling character can't have two-weapon fighting, shadow blade and knowledge devotion (not to mention adaptive style, which if the character doesn't have really cramps the readying of the swordsage maneuvers) barring something that grants extra feats. So again, what feats does this 4th level halfling have, and do you allow means of granting feats (flaws? a subrace of halfling that gives a bonus feat?)?

[icefractal]

I think some of this power is coming from outside ToB (or a misreading of the rules) - there aren't many maneuvers that give large bonuses to attack, and none all that large, so that 38 seems pretty questionable.

50 damage - was that on a crit, or something he does on a regular basis? Also, what are his stats like? If he's got huge Strength via templates or something, it could explain a lot.

[Phaederkiel]

4th character level is too low to get Assassin's Stance though.

Bam, you are right. I misremembered.

[Caedes]

Aloo!

I Just wanted to echo what some of the other posters have said around checking out your Player's sheets.

I am also a story driven DM, and I understand where you are coming from in that regard. But I do have to say that it is especially important to check your characters sheets and to spend the homework time on understanding them.

Nothing can sidetrack a well placed plot device than a skill or feat you did not know your players have. For this reason when my players level up I ask them to send me a copy of their sheets so I can adjust what happens next. At the end of the day I am having fun because I am presenting challenges that are not being negated by something I do not understand, and they are having fun because, if I have done my job right, have given them something that they can use their skills to solve but goes with the story and not against it.

Character sheets are definitely something that many players guard closer than their character's spellbook. But you are the DM, you are omniscient. And you can use that omniscience for good.

I have personally learned so many awesome things from my players and in turn I have been able to teach them a good number of things as well.

:D

[sleepyphoenixx]

Bam, you are right. I misremembered.
It's not like it matters much. There are any number of ways to achieve that kind of damage at that level with various classes if you go splatbook diving, and Dagroth showed the math to get the to-hit too on the first page (barely, but still).
The OP already told us that the player is an optimizer.

Not that it hurts to check the charsheet anyway (a DM should do that as a matter of SOP to reel in players like this who built too well for the rest of the party), but it's beside the point.
The point is that, legal or not, a character like this has no business being in a low-op party of core melee.

The OP hasn't caught it before the game started, so now he has to do damage control.
Talking to the player and asking him to tone it down is the easiest solution, and appealing to his ego is probably the better option to make it go smoothly instead of starting off with the banhammer or accusations of cheating.

[Particle_Man]

50 damage - was that on a crit, or something he does on a regular basis? Also, what are his stats like? If he's got huge Strength via templates or something, it could explain a lot.

I wonder if the player is making the mistake of multiplying the extra dice of damage some maneuvers grant on a crit?

[Particle_Man]

Only needs 3 Feats: Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade & Knowledge Devotion.

But how does a 4th level halfling get those 3 feats plus the two-weapon fighting feat? Is the OP allowing flaws?

Anyhow, assuming the player is using knowledge devotion, one could start sending other monsters not covered by the knowledge skills the character has.

[Dagroth]

I wonder if the player is making the mistake of multiplying the extra dice of damage some maneuvers grant on a crit?

Possibly, but with a roll of 20 on Knowledge Devotion and two confirmed critical hits (and good damage rolls), 50 points of damage is within the realm of possibility.

Of course, that does mean 5 rolls of 19-20 and the first one had to be a 20 (for Knowledge Devotion).

I take that back... he could theoretically have Collector of Stories, so he'd only need a 15+ on Knowledge Devotion. A 20 would've given him +5/+5.

Things like this make me agree with my friend who said Knowledge Devotion was too powerful. At the very least, the results table should require higher rolls for the higher bonuses.

[Venger]

But how does a 4th level halfling get those 3 feats plus the two-weapon fighting feat? Is the OP allowing flaws?

Anyhow, assuming the player is using knowledge devotion, one could start sending other monsters not covered by the knowledge skills the character has.

strongheart halfling gets an extra feat at 1. he might be using gloves of the balanced hand.

don't do that. the gm has infinite resources compared to the party's limited ones. if a character legitimately invests resources in being able to do something, it's bad gming to go out of your way to never let him use it.

[Dagroth]

strongheart halfling gets an extra feat at 1. he might be using gloves of the balanced hand.

don't do that. the gm has infinite resources compared to the party's limited ones. if a character legitimately invests resources in being able to do something, it's bad gming to go out of your way to never let him use it.

Actually, that's one of the reasons I recommended a band of 8 CR 1-2 Skeletons with a Level 2 Evil Cleric backing them up. The rest of the part should do well against the Skeletons and the Swordsage should fight through to go after the Cleric.

[Venger]

Actually, that's one of the reasons I recommended a band of 8 CR 1-2 Skeletons with a Level 2 Evil Cleric backing them up. The rest of the part should do well against the Skeletons and the Swordsage should fight through to go after the Cleric.

that's a solid idea. while neither swordsage nor warblade has religion as a class skill, this definitely doesn't come off as going out of your way to block his use of knowledge devotion (assuming he has it)

like with combating an ubercharger, if the can only kill one target a turn, having encounters of multiple weaker enemies rather than a single strong one is a good way to let the other members be active without just inflating cr in a way they can't cope with.

[Particle_Man]

strongheart halfling gets an extra feat at 1. he might be using gloves of the balanced hand.

That is a bit pricey for a 4th level character, isn't it?

[kuhaica]

Just read through everything. Thanks to everyone for giving some advice and pointers. Anyways this Sunday I'll be speaking to the player in question about there build. And to answer a few questions.

I do not allow Flaws unless they go through me first. My players have a habit of thinking DnDWiki is gold. And some of the stuff on there makes me cringe. So no flaws or traits on this character.

The Damage I'm unsure if it was a critical or not, I remember him saying he was using something that made his Crit range lower. But I'm unsure what at the moment there was a lot of background noise. He was also rolling 30-38 to hit and rolling 30-50 damage consistently.

Again. Thanks everyone for giving me some god advice and statistics.

[Particle_Man]

In 3.5 it is hard to "Stack" things that make crit ranges lower (for example, keen the magic weapon ability does not stack with improved critical). Watch out for that sort of thing?

[Dagroth]

I can't think of anything available (or affordable) at level 4 that modifies Crit Range at all.