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Kesnit
2017-03-20, 07:26 PM
My gaming group encountered an interesting problem in our last session, and we're not quite sure how to handle it. (The system does not really matter, as it is in large part, an RP issue.)



Me: Former gang member who has literally been touched by an angel. Has healing, buffing, and debuffing powers. Has a vow to never do physical damage to a sentient being - and I have no powers that do physical damage.
E: The GM's husband. Can see and talk to ghosts. Has no other supernatural powers, but lots of tech abilities.
G: Vampire. Is the darkest of all the PCs. Can summon hellhounds (at night), has regen, high DR.
H: Ninja with a demon bloodline. Stealth character, but with some cool magical abilities from his bloodline.
K: E's sister. Based her character on She-Hulk. Is literally the daughter of a god. Incredible damage (esp when buffed) and armor.

We are currently following a plot-arc for H. He was called back to his ninja village because it was attacked and his grandfather was poisoned. To save him, we have to find a witch in the demon-haunted woods and convince her to help us find the antidote. We got to the witch's house, and started a fight with the witch's daughter, a Nure-onna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nure-onna). The GM planned that fight to be tough (and it could have been), but some good strategy (the monster can't attack if it is paralyzed...) and good rolls (K's "Hulk" was buffed enough to lift a starship), and we would have taken it down in a few turns. So the GM brought out the witch earlier than she planned using an AoE sonic attack that did hefty damage to everyone except me. (I was out of range). The witch started stoking the snake, and we could see she was healing the snake. (The snake was back to full health quickly.) The witch (who H, K, and I could tell is actually a demon) agreed to help us, but only if we agreed to trap a guardian spirit living in the ninja village. E, K, and I are playing "Good" characters, and were totally not down with handing a good spirit over to a demon. So the witch repeated her request for H's eyes (the source of his demon-power), which she had tried to take 20 years before. None of the party is agreeable to that.

And now we are at an impasse. I feel like the GM set up a "Paladin-must-fall scenario," where there is no reasonable option. The party will not get on the plot-bus, but we can't walk away, either. H cannot walk away to let his grandfather die. The witch-demon wants us to do things that the PCs refuse to do. (And to be honest, K wants to play a Superman-type, not a Batman-type, hero.) And the GM has said if we fight the demon, most - if not all - of the PCs will die, especially since the snake is still around and fully healed and the witch-demon is a lot more powerful than the PCs. (The witch-demon is also not built yet, meaning the GM can tailor her to counter some of our tricks.)

After game was called, the players hung around and tried brainstorming for ideas. E half-joked about calling in an air-strike of thousands of gallons of holy water. We're debating trying to trick the demon. (I'm a lawyer IRL and have a tendency to take the words used by GMs literally...) What I really want to do is call out the GM on putting us in this situation, but I don't want to resort to the meta-game solution yet.

Any ideas?

veti
2017-03-20, 09:12 PM
One: is there no other way to find the antidote/otherwise cure the poison effect? You say you have healing powers - could those be used to, e.g., slow down the poison's course sufficiently to find another way to a proper antidote?

Two: you say "H cannot walk away and let his grandfather die", but you don't say why not. Presumably that's a tragic character development for him, but it's still development. Challenging H - is he prepared to do something evil to prevent a personal tragedy? - is completely legit. Come to think of it, the situation is a staple of fantasy literature. (Popular example: Anakin Skywalker. Relevant TVTropes link (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoveMakesYouEvil).)

Three: from the DMing perspective, there's nothing wrong with a no-win situation. Sometimes you do everything right, and it still doesn't work. Unless you force a violent confrontation that leads to a TPK, that doesn't mean the end of the game - it's just a darker chapter, that's all. It sounds like the witch and H have a history, and she has a grudge against him that now she's trying to pay off. Maybe the answer is just: she wins this round, because H isn't yet strong or wise or prepared enough to best her.

Mr Adventurer
2017-03-21, 03:45 AM
Let the witch come and take the eyes on condition the snake is sent away first.

When she comes close - surprise grapple! Witches hate being grappled!

Kesnit
2017-03-21, 06:05 AM
One: is there no other way to find the antidote/otherwise cure the poison effect? You say you have healing powers - could those be used to, e.g., slow down the poison's course sufficiently to find another way to a proper antidote?

No. My powers heal physical damage, but the poison is built as an ability drain.


Two: you say "H cannot walk away and let his grandfather die", but you don't say why not. Presumably that's a tragic character development for him, but it's still development. Challenging H - is he prepared to do something evil to prevent a personal tragedy? - is completely legit.

He isn't willing to do something evil to prevent a personal tragedy. On the other hand, he can't bring himself to let his grandfather die. That's why we've been trying to find a third option, since the GM only gave us the options of "help the witch" or "fight and likely die."


Three: from the DMing perspective, there's nothing wrong with a no-win situation.

In a game like Call of Cthulhu, or Paranoia, yes. This isn't one of those games.


Sometimes you do everything right, and it still doesn't work.

Bad luck happens, but that isn't the situation here. This is the situation the GM set up, with no back-up plan in case the players balked. (The GM has a tendency to set things up like that. She's done it in other games, and does not know how to adjust.) As K pointed out, any plan we come up with is at the whim of the GM. We can come up with a brilliant plan to save H's grandfather and escape with our lives, but if the GM just says "that won't work," we have no recourse.


Unless you force a violent confrontation that leads to a TPK, that doesn't mean the end of the game - it's just a darker chapter, that's all.

We aren't "forcing" the confrontation. We'd be willing to do a favor for the witch, if it didn't mean doing an overtly evil act. However, the options we've been given have been overtly evil acts.

As I said, the GM has a history of planning elaborate plot arcs, but not having a plan in case the player's don't go along with it. I'm sure she thought we would agree to help the witch, so was taken off-guard when K and I bluntly said "no" to trapping the spirit. Her next option (taking H's eyes) was one the party had already said no to. There was no option 3.

After game was called, the GM did tell H that if he wanted to give up his eyes, she would let him rebuild with the same number of points - just change how his powers work. (Go with a more tech focus, of which he already has a little bit.) H told us later that he does not want to do that, because he likes his PC the way he is.


It sounds like the witch and H have a history, and she has a grudge against him that now she's trying to pay off.

That's true. The witch tried to attack H when H was 4, but was run off by H's mother. H's mother has since disappeared, so we can't ask her for help or advice.


Maybe the answer is just: she wins this round, because H isn't yet strong or wise or prepared enough to best her.

If she wins, she wins because she caused a TPK or near-TPK. The players are fine with "we'll get stronger and come back for her later," but before we can do that, we have to find an answer to the predicament we're in.


Let the witch come and take the eyes on condition the snake is sent away first.

When she comes close - surprise grapple! Witches hate being grappled!

The witch has a verbal attack that does massive damage. We'd have to find a way to silence her, and I don't think anyone in the party has a way to do that. K could grapple the witch and try to cover her mouth, but that would be a very difficult roll to make, and we don't know if he witch has something like Freedom of Movement. Also, K isn't standing close enough to the witch, so it would take at least 2 turns to get to the witch and grab her. I can only heal so fast (and it isn't very fast) and K is already low on health (from the witch's first scream). It's possible the witch could scream and kill K before K could attack.

NichG
2017-03-21, 06:28 AM
What has happened here is that H, H's character, and the general party tendencies have been put at odds with eachother. H likes the 'demon eyes theme', H's character wants his grandfather to live, the party doesn't want to do an obviously horrible thing. If it were just one or the other, the position wouldn't be impossible - H keeps the demon eyes but the grandfather dies and H's character is sad and distraught is a solution; H loses the demon eyes but saves the grandfather is another solution; the party betrays the guardian spirit, bad stuff happens, but players and characters all get what they want is a third solution.

But because H wants A and B and C and isn't willing to compromise one for the others, the possible position becomes impossible.

Probably the most satisfying option is for H's character to make a gamble to save his grandfather that will in all likelihood fail, so that H can retain the aspects of the character that he likes while at the same time not feeling like he's betrayed the character concept by putting keeping the demon eyes above saving the grandfather in character. For example, a simple form of this gamble is to say 'we're not going to take the witch's deal, but I'm sure we can find someone else with an antidote before it's too late!'. If it fails, H's character still did his best, and will feel that he has a motivation to get stronger rather than that he walked away and abandoned someone. The player gets to keep his thematics, and the party gets to maintain their general ethical outlook. And it might succeed.

From the point of view of the social interactions between players and DM here, the DM is attempting to use the players' aversion to the idea of failing to provoke character development/growth/compromise/complication/etc. It's a heavy handed way of doing a thing that's generally good to do. If you feel like this is an attack on you as players, rather than pull back against it by trying to bargain/manipulate/extract success at no cost/compromise despite the DM's intentions (which will just elevate the conflict to generally unsatisfying metagame debates), it makes sense to step into it and directly embrace failure. Doing that removes the teeth from this kind of threat.

Cluedrew
2017-03-21, 07:36 AM
I think the best solution is two part. In character stick to your values, turn down the easy way out and search for a different solution. Out of character inform the GM that you are not interested in that type of story. Maybe ask for another, difficult (as in hard, not evil) solution or have a sad scene with the grandfather and ask it never happens again.

Knaight
2017-03-21, 07:49 AM
This doesn't seem like an impossible position, and that's before getting into the validity of the game coming down to choosing between multiple bad options*. For instance, there's the option of negotiating with the guardian spirit to try and trick the witch, where they're "trapped" in such a way that they can escape after you trade them for the information, there's the option of trying to bring in the guardian spirit against the witch and extracting the information by force, there's the option of ambushing the snake when the witch is away and then trading the snake for the antidote and getting the heck out of dodge once the antidote has been dropped off, etc.

*Which I'd argue is completely fine.

Spellbreaker26
2017-03-21, 08:39 AM
As a GM, the way my players break out of my mold is when they play both sides. If you get the guardian spirit's help, set a trap for the witch and separate her from her daughter you might be able to force her to give you the antidote with zero problems.

icefractal
2017-03-21, 11:03 AM
How much time do you have? You could retreat for the moment and then try to ambush the witch when the snake isn't around, and/or try to find her weakness, if applicable.

Also, while I wouldn't "call out" the GM about this, I don't think talking to her between games would be a bad idea. It sounds like she just expected the party to go with plan A, and may not realize this isn't a direction anyone else wants to go. And she probably doesn't want a TPK either, so letting her know the players feel they have no choice but to fight would be a good idea.

Saint Jimmy
2017-03-21, 11:40 AM
I would suggest wither tricking the witch like others have suggested (by doing something like talking to the guardian spirit, and then send someone to tell the witch it is clear. When the witch enters the area you all and the guardian spirit kill her. I assume this would work becuase she wants the spirit out of the way but isn't doing it herself, so it's probable that the thing can hurt her pretty badly. However, the main problem with this is coming up with a way to lure the witch to the spirit) or talking to the GM about it, or just going with one of the options and using at character development.

Also, what system is this? All those characters sound really cool but I haven't heard of a system where you can make stuff like that.

Thinker
2017-03-21, 11:54 AM
Double-cross the witch. Either feign capturing the spirit or enlist the spirit's aid in defeating the witch. So long as she provides the antidote, you're good.

Kalmageddon
2017-03-21, 12:19 PM
Can't you steal what you need from the witch? Or find the guardian spirit the witch wants gone and maybe see if he can help you deal with her?
Also, and I'm posting this only because I'm childish and easily amused, on my first read of your post I totally misread what the witch started doing to the snake as "stroking", which, compounded by the fact that I didn't open the image and so I didn't know there was an actual snake in this scene, made for an interesting turn of events.

AMX
2017-03-21, 03:16 PM
Trying to think outside the box, how are Nure-onna handled in this setting?
Is there any chance you could befriend and/or seduce the daughter to turn her against her mother?

Telok
2017-03-21, 04:52 PM
Put gramps in stasis (time, magical, cyrogenic, whatever) to buy time. I've read at least three books that used this trick. Maybe the guardian spirit of the village can help.

Quertus
2017-03-21, 05:12 PM
Sounds like your GM likes to give you Hard Choices. That's awesome! Problem is, sounds like y'all aren't really up dealing with Hard Choices, or with thinking your way out of a bind. And your GM isn't terribly willing to let creative solutions work? Can you give examples of creative solutions to bad situations she's vetoed in the past, to give us a better idea what to suggest?

As a meta suggestion, talk to her. I'd actually suggest that she a) give y'all more Hard Choices, to help you learn to play in her style, but b) be more willing to accept creative solutions to these Hard Choices, as a step towards playing in y'all's style.

veti
2017-03-21, 05:26 PM
It seems to me that the DM has, quite thoughtfully, given you three viable options to choose what alignment you want to play. (Discounting the TPK "option" on the grounds that it's just plain stupid and achieves none of your objectives.)

Good: give up the eyes (personal sacrifice - hey, it's easy to be good when it's not costing you anything, the test of character comes at times like this)
Neutral: walk away - effectively sacrifice the grandfather (minimise the harm)
Evil: betray the guardian spirit.

If you really can't bring yourselves to accept any of these, then it's up to you to come up with your own alternatives. Some have been suggested above (I like "enlist the guardian spirit's help to deceive and/or defeat the witch", myself, but of course that'll require GM cooperation).

Kesnit
2017-03-21, 07:37 PM
For instance, there's the option of negotiating with the guardian spirit to try and trick the witch, where they're "trapped" in such a way that they can escape after you trade them for the information, there's the option of trying to bring in the guardian spirit against the witch and extracting the information by force, there's the option of ambushing the snake when the witch is away and then trading the snake for the antidote and getting the heck out of dodge once the antidote has been dropped off, etc.

The guardian spirit isn't powerful enough to be able to stand up to the witch. (It's more like a small household sprite.) We wouldn't be able to capture and hold the snake without killing it, and killing it would cause the witch to attack us.


As a GM, the way my players break out of my mold is when they play both sides. If you get the guardian spirit's help, set a trap for the witch and separate her from her daughter you might be able to force her to give you the antidote with zero problems.

We can take the snake. We cannot defeat the witch without massive casualties. (One shriek - which she can do at-will - took everyone but me near death. It would have done the same to me if I was in range at the time. My healing ability is very minor, and I can only heal one person per turn.)


How much time do you have?

Not a lot. We have some time, but I suspect we only have as much time as plot allows. If we are following the plot, grandpa is fine. If we go too far from plot, grandpa dies.


Also, while I wouldn't "call out" the GM about this, I don't think talking to her between games would be a bad idea. It sounds like she just expected the party to go with plan A, and may not realize this isn't a direction anyone else wants to go.

I am almost sure that is the case. She seemed rather surprised when we didn't jump on the witch's initial offer, and did not have a back-up planned.


And she probably doesn't want a TPK either, so letting her know the players feel they have no choice but to fight would be a good idea.

I doubt she wants a TPK, since she does enjoy running the game, and knows a TPK would ruin the overarching plot she has developed.


I assume this would work becuase she wants the spirit out of the way but isn't doing it herself, so it's probable that the thing can hurt her pretty badly.

She can't capture the spirit because she cannot enter sacred ground. If the spirit fought her, she would kill the spirit with little effort.


Also, what system is this? All those characters sound really cool but I haven't heard of a system where you can make stuff like that.

HERO.


Double-cross the witch. Either feign capturing the spirit or enlist the spirit's aid in defeating the witch. So long as she provides the antidote, you're good.

Tricking the witch may be our only option, but I don't know enough about the witch or the spirit to know what would or would not work. (That isn't info that has been given to the party.)


Can't you steal what you need from the witch?

IIRC, the antidote is a spell the witch casts.


Or find the guardian spirit the witch wants gone and maybe see if he can help you deal with her?

No, because the spirit is no threat to the witch.


Trying to think outside the box, how are Nure-onna handled in this setting?

She's an evil demon. The witch is also based on a Shinto god/supernatural being, a Tengu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengu). While neither the Nure-onna or the Tengu are always evil, the GM has declared that these two are.


Is there any chance you could befriend and/or seduce the daughter to turn her against her mother?

Nice thought, but no.


Put gramps in stasis (time, magical, cyrogenic, whatever) to buy time.

A good idea, but that is outside the capabilities of the PCs. We do work for a government agency, who in theory could do that. (I assume there is the capability somewhere.) However, I don't know if they would, since this quest is "off the books."


Sounds like your GM likes to give you Hard Choices.

No, she doesn't. She dreams up plot arcs and decides how they will progress. Since she knows exactly "what will happen," she does not consider what to do when the players don't follow her mental script. That's the reason the witch was not actually built prior to last game - the GM "knew" we wouldn't try to fight the witch, so there was no need to actually build her.


to help you learn to play in her style,

"Her style" is "fill it with lots of holes. No, I said LOTS!" That was her approach to everything in (1) a previous game in the HERO system that was run by E, (2) a Vampire: the Requiem game I ran, and (3) another HERO/Star Wars game currently being run by G. A few weeks ago, during G's game, she was home sick. That allowed us to come up with a rather crazy solution to a problem (that had me humming "Yakety Sax") that involved some interesting skill rolls and no combat. Even E (her husband) admitted that was not a solution we could have done if she had been there.


It seems to me that the DM has, quite thoughtfully, given you three viable options to choose what alignment you want to play. (Discounting the TPK "option" on the grounds that it's just plain stupid and achieves none of your objectives.)

Good: give up the eyes (personal sacrifice - hey, it's easy to be good when it's not costing you anything, the test of character comes at times like this)
Neutral: walk away - effectively sacrifice the grandfather (minimise the harm)
Evil: betray the guardian spirit.


The Good option isn't, since we've realized the witch is a shapeshifter demon who collects demon shapes to become more powerful. Giving her H's eyes would give her his powers. Every option we've been given by the witch makes her more powerful, which is not a Good option.


If you really can't bring yourselves to accept any of these, then it's up to you to come up with your own alternatives. Some have been suggested above (I like "enlist the guardian spirit's help to deceive and/or defeat the witch", myself, but of course that'll require GM cooperation).

That idea is the one I like best, but I am not sure how the GM will react. (Her husband and sister-in-law are the ones who brought up that concern, so it isn't just me thinking it.)

Telok
2017-03-22, 12:24 AM
Oh, you're playing Hero?

Hit up your contacts, if any of them are appropriate. Even if you can't snag a stasis thing you might be able to get cyber/magic eyes for the ninja. Perhaps you can transfer his eye-power to something and give the witch powerless eyes. Has your group been putting aside points for a base? You can get some pretty nice toys if you start off with a small one. You may be able to broker a deal with another entity and take on a complication for the points to cure grampy yourselves.

Hero is wildly and wonderfully flexable. Drop a house on someone, it works wonders.

zeek0
2017-03-22, 03:18 PM
For the villain to give seemingly impossible dilemmas to the heroes is a time-honored tradition. I, personally, love it.

But you may need to help your GM a bit. They don't know what you'll reply to the witch, and don't know what kind of game to plan next. If you can tell them that, say, you want to give the eyes to the witch, then they can imagine and plan ahead.

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-22, 03:59 PM
Did the witch ever say which pair of eyes she wanted? If you go to a cow, take its eyes and give them to H, those are legally HIS eyes, just not the ones in his skull. (Unless he has a very strange skull based storage system, which given this group, I am not immediately discounting).

Are there other demons and spirits around? The enemy of my enemy is my friend, as long as my speed is better then theirs. Go to another demon and get them to fight. Or tell the spirits that this Witch has plans for this spirit if there is some sort of spirit alliance thing.

If you know of a powerful spirit, have it pretend to be the spirit the Witch wants. Give it to her, but in such a way it can immediately be freed to rampage on the witch.

Kesnit
2017-03-22, 04:56 PM
Hit up your contacts, if any of them are appropriate.

As I said, we work for a U.S. government agency that trains and oversees superheros. It's possible we could get help from them, but since this mission is off the books, I'm not sure they will agree.


Even if you can't snag a stasis thing you might be able to get cyber/magic eyes for the ninja. Perhaps you can transfer his eye-power to something and give the witch powerless eyes.

*chuckle* I'll mention that to H and see what he says.


Has your group been putting aside points for a base?

Yes, we've each put in 11 points. However, the base is already defined.


take on a complication for the points to cure grampy yourselves.

We all had to take complications. (My oath to not do physical damage is one of mine.)


But you may need to help your GM a bit. They don't know what you'll reply to the witch, and don't know what kind of game to plan next. If you can tell them that, say, you want to give the eyes to the witch, then they can imagine and plan ahead.

We did tell her that we won't help the witch, and H does not want to give up his eyes. That's where game stalled because we were at an impasse. (That and it was 10:30 at night and past time to wrap game.)


Did the witch ever say which pair of eyes she wanted? If you go to a cow, take its eyes and give them to H, those are legally HIS eyes, just not the ones in his skull.

Huh... A person after my own heart. I love that idea...


Are there other demons and spirits around? The enemy of my enemy is my friend, as long as my speed is better then theirs. Go to another demon and get them to fight. Or tell the spirits that this Witch has plans for this spirit if there is some sort of spirit alliance thing.

We know there are other demons, but the ones we know about are either mindless and brutal (and attack on sight) or terrified of the witch. (We managed to capture a minor demon earlier in the evening and got it to guide us to the witch's house. We freed him before we got there.)


If you know of a powerful spirit, have it pretend to be the spirit the Witch wants. Give it to her, but in such a way it can immediately be freed to rampage on the witch.

There is a True Fae at our base, but I don't think it can leave the base.

Segev
2017-03-22, 05:22 PM
As a gamble, you could try blitz-attacking her daughter again, and getting the ninja or whoever would be best at it to essentially grapple and hold a knife (proverbial or literal) to her throat. "We'll trade you your daughter's life for the antidote."

It's not a "good" aligned solution, but as these are evil creatures, you might be able to consider it morally neutral. (Admittedly, I think it's evil, but it's understandable evil, and probably a lesser evil than turning the guardian spirit over.)

Why is turning over the ninja's eyes evil? I get why it's undesirable OOC; I just am trying to make sure I'm not missing something with the IC situation.


There is always the option of just trying to find the antidote, yourselves. But your GM may make that auto-fail.

Kesnit
2017-03-22, 05:56 PM
Why is turning over the ninja's eyes evil? I get why it's undesirable OOC; I just am trying to make sure I'm not missing something with the IC situation.

Giving the witch H's eyes would also give her his power.

NichG
2017-03-22, 06:29 PM
It's pretty unreasonable to expect someone to do something for you when one of your ethical constraints is 'they absolutely must not benefit in return'...

icefractal
2017-03-22, 06:35 PM
It's pretty unreasonable to expect someone to do something for you when one of your ethical constraints is 'they absolutely must not benefit in return'...Well, yes, but the GM is the one who created the whole situation - the poisoning, the fact that the witch is the only one with the antidote, and the fact that the witch is only asking for things the party is opposed to giving her. Given that, the fact that the bad outcome is logical doesn't really count for much.

After all, a GM could easily create a situation where the PCs just die with no chance to avoid it, in an entirely plausible way, but that doesn't mean it's desirable to do so. :smalltongue:

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-22, 06:46 PM
By the way, how does H feel about having a ghost grandpa? I'm not saying that you should consider that a plan A, but maybe you should consider that with other player characters away from him as a Plan D or F, just in case. I mean, given your line-up, I doubt that all necromancy is bad, and you probably have a line or two to the after life. Any chance of favors from the person who runs the afterlife?

How does grandpa feel about the situation, anyway? I'm getting the vibe that he might not be okay with helping a demon to save him and possibly doom his ninja village. I mean, does he have other relatives or people he likes there? Maybe he could be talked into a noble sacrifice...

It's not evil if he agrees to it for good reasons!

Keltest
2017-03-22, 06:50 PM
Heres an important question. How bound to her word is this witch? if you cheat the spirit of the deal, is she able and likely to just attack you or otherwise not give you the reward you need?

Kesnit
2017-03-22, 08:29 PM
By the way, how does H feel about having a ghost grandpa? I'm not saying that you should consider that a plan A, but maybe you should consider that with other player characters away from him as a Plan D or F, just in case. I mean, given your line-up, I doubt that all necromancy is bad, and you probably have a line or two to the after life. Any chance of favors from the person who runs the afterlife?

Also not a bad idea... It would be interesting character development for H and E...


How does grandpa feel about the situation, anyway? I'm getting the vibe that he might not be okay with helping a demon to save him and possibly doom his ninja village. I mean, does he have other relatives or people he likes there? Maybe he could be talked into a noble sacrifice...

Grandpa is the one who sent for H to come back to the village and sent us into the woods. On the other hand, I doubt he knows about the request to capture the guardian sprite...


Heres an important question. How bound to her word is this witch? if you cheat the spirit of the deal, is she able and likely to just attack you or otherwise not give you the reward you need?

I doubt the GM would be too happy if we played word games with the witch. I suspect if we did something like "OK, we'll bring the guardian spirit to you," then bring the spirit, but refuse to hand it over (because we didn't agree to do that), the witch would attack.

Segev
2017-03-22, 09:48 PM
I doubt the GM would be too happy if we played word games with the witch. I suspect if we did something like "OK, we'll bring the guardian spirit to you," then bring the spirit, but refuse to hand it over (because we didn't agree to do that), the witch would attack.

The idea here would be to set it up to have the spirit help you ambush and capture her to force her to help you.

NichG
2017-03-22, 09:53 PM
Well, yes, but the GM is the one who created the whole situation - the poisoning, the fact that the witch is the only one with the antidote, and the fact that the witch is only asking for things the party is opposed to giving her. Given that, the fact that the bad outcome is logical doesn't really count for much.

It's more that, maybe they need to consider that based on their party's values, letting the grandfather die is actually the ethically consistent choice. The GM set up the premise, but it's the players who have the ability to say 'you know, we're not going to commit what we think will become an atrocity to save a loved one, its not worth it'.

That's the nature of hard choices - you usually don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

Telok
2017-03-22, 11:37 PM
What I meant was that you do a mystic ritual or guzzle some glowing green stuff and take on a new (or upgrade a current) complication to get the points to cure or stasis gramps. And a cyrogenic freeze chamber in your base is really pretty cheap.