How to make Mystic Theurges worth it

[Wartex1]

Everyone knows Mystic Theurges, and from what I've seen, its either very strongly liked for its increased versatility and endurance at the cost of power, or hated because it sacrifices so much power, especially at lower levels.

The Mystic Theurge's niche is viable though not optimal, but it still suffers from serious design flaws, namely the risk of falling behind the power curve during early levels (because being a Wizard 3/Cleric 2 sucks when you could just be a Wizard 5) and the dramatic reduction in advancement once the PrC is finished, forcing the Theurge to either specialize to even get a single 9th level spell.

There are plenty of 3rd party options or alternative Theurge-esque options that can get around this, like the Kobold Press Theurge or official archetypes like Razmiran Priest, but they do lose some of the mechanical flavor that the PrC provides, since the Theurgy is no longer "earned."

To help correct the problems while still maintaining some of the sacrifice the PrC demands, I've designed a solution which allows stronger entry and less fall-off near the end.

First, instead of requiring 2nd-level arcane and divine spells, the PrC only requires taking two levels in an arcane and divine spellcasting class. This allows earlier entry, doesn't punish spontaneous caster entry for their slower spell progression, and boosts power at early levels. Plus, there's no harm done with allowing partial casters to take it sooner since the PrC isn't worth it to them due to lack of features to supplement the lesser spellcasting.

The second change would be to make the Mystic Theurge a 15-level PrC (which don't otherwise exist), keeping the current formula and expanding the Mystic Theurge's Combined Spells feature at odd levels like before.

These two changes would ensure that Mystic Theurges would always be able to get 9th level spells without going into Epic levels, but it would still delay progression enough that Theurges wouldn't eclipse single-classed casters. The only particular problem I could see with this change is that it would allow a Sorcerer/Oracle Theurge more viable, but this is hardly a problem since this makes Combined Spells useless and the Theurge wouldn't get a 9th-level spell until 20th-level.

Does this fix make the Mystic Theurge worthwhile, or is it perhaps too strong this way? The Mystic Theurge eventually comes out on top in terms of spells per day in higher slots, but its always behind by at least one spell level and lacks the useful class features unique to the base classes such as Bloodlines or Channel Energy, which should be enough to offset the benefits of the MT.

[Dagroth]

I honestly believe, with the level of versatility a Mystic Theurge has (especially in Pathfinder), that limiting them to 8th level spells is more than enough. Requiring 7 ranks in Spellcraft & Concentration & 5 ranks in Know: Arcane & Know: Divine means you won't be getting in until 5th level. If it's a 16 level PrC (taking the character to level 20) and every 4th level [/b]starting with the 1st[/b] (so 1st class level, 5th, 9th, 13th) it only advances one or the other class... You end up with either 1 class at 18th & the other at 14th, 1 at 17th and one at 15th (best option), or both at 16th. Make sure the class that doesn't get a spellcasting increase at least gets a caster level increase so both classes will have CL 18 at the end.

That way you can get 9ths in one of the two classes, but not both.

[Azoth]

Other options that exist already in Pathfinder:

1) Slightly gray are of early entry using Equipment Trick (Sunrod) for Like the Sun to treat all your first level light spells as 2nd level for all purposes allowing entry as X3/Y1.

2) Convince your DM to use Inner Sea Magic. Join a Mage's Guild. Gain 35 Fame to unlock Eclectic and Esoteric Training. This will grant you 3 levels of spellcasting (including spells known and spell slots) for one class and 1 level in a second. Entry is still X3/Y3 but you have casting of X6/Y4.

3) Another rule gray area. Use Evangelist's Bonded Class class feature to gain pseudo-levels in Mystic Theurge beyond level 10. While not substantiated in the rules, there are guidelines for how to handle this in the section for leveling beyond level 20. Gives up 19 effective levels of Mystic Theurge.

[Gusmo]

Faith magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/faith-magic/) lets you cast divine spells as a wizard. Doesn't provide early entry, but it does provide clear and unambiguous theurge access by allowing you to take 1 level of any class to then progress with mystic theurge, while only losing 1 level of wizard casting.

[Dagroth]

Faith magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/faith-magic/) lets you cast divine spells as a wizard. Doesn't provide early entry, but it does provide clear and unambiguous theurge access by allowing you to take 1 level of any class to then progress with mystic theurge, while only losing 1 level of wizard casting.

Assuming Mystic Theurge for Pathfinder still requires being able to cast 2nd level Divine Spells... you'd have to be able to cast 4th level Wizard spells when you got that feat.

And it still wouldn't work by my reading. Being able to cast a 2nd level Divine Spell is not the same as being able to cast 2nd level Divine Spells.

[Serafina]

Well, we can now debate for a long time whether "spells" means "any number of spells, including one" or "any plural amount of spells, so at least two".

But even if you go with the latter, you simply take Equipment Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat/) (Sunrod), and treat your Cleric 1st-level [light] spell (such as Dancing Lantern (http://www.dxcontent.com/SDB_SpellBlock.asp?SDBID=731) or Unwelcome Halo (http://www.dxcontent.com/SDB_SpellBlock.asp?SDBID=1785)) as a 2nd-level spell for all purposes.
At which point you have two 2nd-level divine spells, and your arcane spells, and can go into Mystic Theurge with only one lost level of casting.

But hey, let's be honest here: Whether you can use any early-entry or compensation-tricks entirely depends on your GM.
Even if there was an unambiguous Wizard-discovery that said "this qualifies you for prestige classes such as Mystic Theurge", or a Cleric-domain that did the same, if your GM isn't fine with it then you don't play it.
So hey, if you want to play a Mystic Theurge, be open with your GM what you actually want to do with it. If your GM agrees that it's no more broken than other well-played full-casters, then it's fine. Otherwise you just have to decide whether you still want to play it.

That being said, even unoptimized the "I only cast spells" play style can be perfectly viable even if you don't get the highest level of spells. You could do that with, say, a well-built Occultist, and they only get up to 6th-level spells.

[Remuko]

This feat seems useful (Note: I havent played PF yet so Idk if it actually is but it sounds really useful for a MT) http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/

[zergling.exe]

This feat seems useful (Note: I havent played PF yet so Idk if it actually is but it sounds really useful for a MT) http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/

From what I've heard around here, that feat is only useful to classes like Eldritch Knight, since it only allows you to make up levels lost to a prestige class, not base classes and not from classes that don't grant spellcasting. So for at least a Mystic Theurge, it does nothing.

[Mage keeper]

You Have to use eclectic training and esoteric training, they are in pathfinder inner sea magic.
If you associate with a guild and you earn enough fame point you get: at first eclectic training (5 fame point) that consinder your caster level as on higher for calculate how many spell can you cast and the higher level of your spell and then and later esoteric training (35 fame point) which work as eclectic training but you are consider 3 level higher in you main spellcasting class and you're cnsider 1 level higher in another spellcasting class.

[Mordaedil]

All you really need to do to make the mystic Theurge very appealing is to allow earlier entry and allow the player to go all the way to level 20 after entering the PRC. Requiring 2 caster levels in each class and only 7 ranks (ie. entry after level 4) would go a long way to make it appealing to casters.

Maybe a bit much so.

[Quertus]

Well, here's my 2c: I think it highly depends on what kind of game you're in. Sometimes, when the DM isn't absolutely hard-stop requiring top-end spells, or is throwing huge dungeons at the party, having lots of extra spells is so much better than the few lost high-level spell slots. But, sometimes, you just really want a specific spell you lost to being a Theurge.

Also, people are so caught up in "early entry", that they forget about late entry. Nothing keeps you from going, say, Wizard 8 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 10, in that order. No early-game slowdown, duel 9s. Heck, nothing keeps you from going Wizard 20, and then retraining as a Mystic Theurge, afaik. But, then, I've never really looked at retraining rules before, as I prefer fairly simple builds, like Wizard 20, or Arcane Spellcaster 19 / Tainted Sorcerer 1.

So how much help Mystic Theurge needs seems highly dependent on your table.

[Heliomance]

One thing I've seen is adding a class feature at 10th level that changes Theurge to count as a spellcasting class - so that once you hit level 10 Theurge, you can then use other "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" PrCs to progress both sides at once.

[golem1972]

My group found it easiest to just turn the Mystic Theurge into a 20 level base class.

Avoids all the early entry / cheese tactics, and eliminates the what do I do after mystic theurge questions. Also drops the Legacy Champion / Evangelist arguments.

3 seperate base classes. The Wizard / Archivist Mystic Theurge, The Sorcerer / Favored Soul Mystic Theurge, and (for Pathfinder) the Arcanist / (divine) Arcanist Mystic Theurge.

In all cases, it was an arcane caster skeleton with a few divine caster add ons. Two sets of spells (prepared, or known) and a few class features from the arcane, divine, and mystic theurge classes. Offset with a slightly delayed spell casting progression.

Having said that, I have played an Oracle 3 / Sorcerer 1 / Mystic Theurge 1 / Evangelist 10 / Mystic Theurge +5 using a Mage Guild for early entry.

[Grim Reader]

I've generally felt that a rebuild along the lines of Ultimate Magus was the best option.

Entry 2/1 and skills. Skill requirements means you need to have 5 levels, and that you can lead with a Sorcerer or Favored Soul just as easily as a prepared caster. Dual advancement 7/10, single advancement 3/10. Player just chooses which side to advance. Spell versatility as the Geomancer as a class feature.

[Psyren]

You Have to use eclectic training and esoteric training, they are in pathfinder inner sea magic.
If you associate with a guild and you earn enough fame point you get: at first eclectic training (5 fame point) that consinder your caster level as on higher for calculate how many spell can you cast and the higher level of your spell and then and later esoteric training (35 fame point) which work as eclectic training but you are consider 3 level higher in you main spellcasting class and you're cnsider 1 level higher in another spellcasting class.

I completely forgot about this. It seems pretty clearly aimed at Theurges.

The only remaining issue is you'll still be MAD, because currently there are no 17-level Int-based divine casters (that I know of...) or Wis/Cha-based arcane ones. But you can do Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 10/Clr +4 for 9th-level divine spells, then throw your guild bonuses onto Wizard to hit 9th-level arcane spells.

[Serafina]

If you're worried about MAD, you can always go with some other class combination.
Usually, spontaneous casters are a less-good idea for Mystic Theurge because you really can't afford the extra loss of casting progression. But with good entry and Guild training to make up for losses, that's much less of an issue.
And that opens up neat combinations:
- Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer with any divine wisdom caster (Cleric, Druid, Shaman).
- Sorcerer and any divine charisma caster (Oracle, Fey-Speaker Druid or Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric)

Or you can just be fine with one of your casting-stats not being that great - after all, you don't need bonus spells that badly (you already have a ton of spells) and with the right spells, Save-DCs don't matter much. And with increased value for the second stat, it's not even a bad idea:
- Arcanist and any divine charisma caster - Arcanists can benefit from high charisma
- Sorcerer and Shaman - Shamans also benefit from high charisma with the right hexes
- Arcanist and Shaman can be hella MAD, but going with Lore-spirit and Arcane Enlightenment could be a lot of fun.

[Psyren]

All the ways I've found to be SAD require a spontaneous caster with a delayed progression, which kills the dual 9s aspect of this trick. While Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 10/Wiz +4 with Guild +4 Guild +3 and +1 can get dual 9s, replacing one of those with Sorcerer or Oracle, or even Sorcerer/Elder Mythos Cultist or Sorcerer/Fey Speaker, means one side is going to top out at 8ths.'

Having said that, you're right - MAD with 9s beats SAD without, using the right spells.

[Azoth]

The guild bonus isn't +4 to one class it is +3 to one class and +1 to a second class. So Wiz3/Cleric3/MT10/Wiz+4 can end up as either Wiz20/Cleric14 or Wiz18/Cleric16.

You would have to do Wiz3/Cleric3/MT10/Cleric+1/Wizard+3 that way you get Wiz17/Cleric17 if you give +1Wizard +3Cleric with Guild bonus.

This just barely squeezes dual 9ths.

[Psyren]

The guild bonus isn't +4 to one class it is +3 to one class and +1 to a second class. So Wiz3/Cleric3/MT10/Wiz+4 can end up as either Wiz20/Cleric14 or Wiz18/Cleric16.

You would have to do Wiz3/Cleric3/MT10/Cleric+1/Wizard+3 that way you get Wiz17/Cleric17 if you give +1Wizard +3Cleric with Guild bonus.

This just barely squeezes dual 9ths.

That was my point - and even if you could apply the +3 and +1 to the same class, with a spontaneous caster you still couldn't hit dual 9s. Unfortunately, builds containing at least one spontaneous caster are the only ones that can be SAD currently.

[Kurald Galain]

Also, people are so caught up in "early entry", that they forget about late entry.

Not really, it's more that (many) more campaigns play at lower level than campaigns that go all the way up to 20.

[Psyren]

Also, people are so caught up in "early entry", that they forget about late entry. Nothing keeps you from going, say, Wizard 8 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 10, in that order. No early-game slowdown, duel 9s. Heck, nothing keeps you from going Wizard 20, and then retraining as a Mystic Theurge, afaik. But, then, I've never really looked at retraining rules before, as I prefer fairly simple builds, like Wizard 20, or Arcane Spellcaster 19 / Tainted Sorcerer 1.

Nothing except the Pathfinder tag :smalltongue:

I suppose leveling single-class and then retraining into the Theurge is a less painful experience though, especially if you can retrain at/after you get your Guild Fame bonuses as mentioned above.

[Azoth]

Another issue with going Mystic Theurge is that alot of Domain powers, School powers, Bloodline powers, Mysteries, ect. scale only with the levels you have in the base class that granted them. So you either have to shoehorn the few that will still scale into a build or accept that they won't be of much use to you at all.

The best Wizard School powers in these instances are Divination Foresight(bank a d20 3+Int/day), Conjuration Teleportation(Swift action Teleport a few feet), and Void(give a penalty to AC/Saves = to 1/2CL).

Good Cleric Domains are Trickery and Travel.

I am not too familiar with the best Sorcerer Bloodlines for this, because I generally play prepared casters, but anything with a strong Bloodline Arcana would be a place to start. That or Empyreal to reduce MAD.

[Psyren]

Schools/Domains with scaling-agnostic powers aren't hard to find though.

For Sorcerers, you have pretty much no reason to go MT because False Priest exists, UMD as a class skill etc.

[grarrrg]

I suppose leveling single-class and then retraining into the Theurge is a less painful experience though

They did a FAQ-rrata that says you can't retrain a Base class into a Prestige class.
So... yeah.

[dude123nice]

They did a FAQ-rrata that says you can't retrain a Base class into a Prestige class.
So... yeah.

You only take levels in a single class until you are close to 35 fame. When you start getting close to your goal, you start taking/retraining levels in the other class until you have 3 levels. Then take your first MT level asap.

[Psyren]

They did a FAQ-rrata that says you can't retrain a Base class into a Prestige class.
So... yeah.

That still leaves 10 base class levels you can use to gain guild fame and then retrain later.