Are the original class books worth anything?

[tedcahill2]

Pretty simple, is their any value to owning Song and Silence, Defenders of the Faith, Masters of the Wild, Sword and Fist, and Tome and Blood?

I've heard much of the material was rehashed for 3.5, but is there any value to the original books? Let's say I could get all of them for less than $30, are they worth it?

[Venger]

Pretty simple, is their any value to owning Song and Silence, Defenders of the Faith, Masters of the Wild, Sword and Fist, and Tome and Blood?

I've heard much of the material was rehashed for 3.5, but is there any value to the original books? Let's say I could get all of them for less than $30, are they worth it?

not really. they're pretty much all prestige classes and nearly all of them were reprinted in 3.5 with minimally changed rules. they were redone as complete adventurer, complete divine, complete warrior, and complete arcane.

personally, $30 for all those books is a great deal and I'd go for it, but if you plan to get the complete series later on, you'll have a lot of duplicate content

[GilesTheCleric]

not really. they're pretty much all prestige classes and nearly all of them were reprinted in 3.5 with minimally changed rules. they were redone as complete adventurer, complete divine, complete warrior, and complete arcane.

personally, $30 for all those books is a great deal and I'd go for it, but if you plan to get the complete series later on, you'll have a lot of duplicate content

I agree. I'd personally take that deal and purchase them, but that's mostly because I enjoy collecting the physical books. Besides, sometimes having the old 3.0 stuff is actually useful when you're trying to suss out rules conflicts. For example, having those books makes clearer how Prestige Domains work (they don't, really, in 3.5, but some are technically available by RAW), and they also provide insight into the old 3.0 view of knowledge skills, how turning works, and all sorts of other fluff/ not-quite-rules content that wasn't kept in the revamped versions of each of them.

[Venger]

I agree. I'd personally take that deal and purchase them, but that's mostly because I enjoy collecting the physical books. Besides, sometimes having the old 3.0 stuff is actually useful when you're trying to suss out rules conflicts. For example, having those books makes clearer how Prestige Domains work (they don't, really, in 3.5, but some are technically available by RAW), and they also provide insight into the old 3.0 view of knowledge skills, how turning works, and all sorts of other fluff/ not-quite-rules content that wasn't kept in the revamped versions of each of them.

Yeah, those are all good points. One thing I enjoy about the 3.0 books is the black and white art. it's got a much different, grimmer feel than the 3.5 stuff. while most of the classes are identical, there are a few noteworthy changes, such as alienist and mndbender, both of which go in very different directions in their respective updates.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GilesTheCleric
I'd personally take that deal and purchase them, but that's mostly because I enjoy collecting the physical books.

I’d agree that $30 is a good deal for those books, and I’d definitely go for it, just to have the complete physical set.

It’s certainly true that much of the content was reprinted in 3.5, but there are a few interesting tidbits from the original books that are worth looking at. Masters of the Wild is my favorite for a number of reasons, and some of the PrCs like Hexer and Forsaker could be interesting depending on the campaign.

I also really liked the flavor of the infusions, and there was some reasonably thoughtful discussion of nature-oriented philosophies, more so than tended to appear in 3.5 books.


Originally Posted by Venger
…there are a few noteworthy changes, such as alienist and m[i]ndbender, both of which go in very different directions in their respective updates.

I think the 3.0 alienist was slightly better, since it was able to apply the Pseudonatural template to its entire summoning list.

Not the world’s greatest template, sure, but at least a step up from the base creature.

[frogglesmash]

While most of the classes got reprinted I'm pretty sure a fair few of the feats never did, as well as many of the magic\mundane items.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by frogglesmash
While most of the classes [were] reprinted I'm pretty sure a fair few of the feats never did, as well as many of the magic\mundane items.

Is there a list showing which PrCs were reprinted, and which were left untouched? And likewise for the magic items?

Pretty sure the nagaika was never updated to 3.5...and probably not the caber, either.

[Darrin]

There are some hidden gems in those books. Worth a look:

Defenders of the Faith

Altar Case. 20 GP, worth a +2 bonus on your Knowledge: Religion roll if you're trying to abuse the Sacrifice rules from BoVD. See my Apocalypse Martini (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15634823&postcount=19) build for an example.

Energy Drain armor/shield property. At one point, the most powerful overlooked shield enhancement in the game, as it gives you an enervation effect whenever you shield bash an opponent. Technically, this same property was reprinted in Ghostwalk, where they eventually issued errata for this: "Add 'This attack may be used once per day.' after '(if shield).'" Market price was also changed from +2 bonus to +10,000 GP. However... 10K for a 1/day energy drain attack isn't horrendously expensive... if you want more than 1/day, you can buy more shields.

Charming armor/shield property. A bit expensive (+3 enhancement), but your opponents have to make a save *every* *single* *time* they hit you. Even with a low Will save DC, they will eventually roll a '1'.

Ethereal armor/shield property. It's pretty clear that one version of this enhancement was updated and included in the 3.5 DMG, but if you want to get really picky about RAW, slightly different name still means it's a different enhancement. The first version (updated in the 3.5 DMG) allows the owner to use ethereal jaunt, but the duration is only 9 rounds (the DMG version has an unlimited duration). However, there is no limited uses per day, so you could keep activating this enhancement every 9 rounds for as long as you like. The second version allows you to cast etherealness as an 11th level cleric (which normally can't cast a 9th level spell in 3.5). The caster level is set to 11, which limits the number of additional allies you can bring along to 3 and sets the duration to 11 minutes, again there is no mention of limited uses per day, so you can keep re-activating this enhancement to stay ethereal longer if you like. You'll need to ask your DM whether he wants to treat either version as separate from the DMG version.

Knight of the Middle Circle PrC. Needs a bit of an update (Innuendo got folded into Bluff), but no feats required for entry. One-level dip gets you Blind-Fight as a bonus feat and a smattering of divine spellcasting, but take a look at that Combat Sense (Ex), AKA "free attack bonus for reasons" against one opponent.

Masters of the Wild

Extra Favored Enemy feat. Never updated to 3.5. I'm not quite sure why you might want to add more favored enemies to your build, but I find myself dipping Ranger a lot, and there are a bunch of other ways to add Favored Enemy from somewhere else... I'm thinking this might be useful... eventually? It allows Swift Hunters to do precision damage to a creature type that is normally immune to it, but so far all of my Swift Hunter builds haven't had room for it.

Caber. This weapon is... odd. The damage is set by the description rather than by the table so... I keep thinking there's a brilliant loophole there (fine-sized "toothpick" cabers doing 2d6 damage, maybe?), but haven't quite found it yet. Hopefully daremetoidareyou will start another "Optimize This Weapon" thread soonish.

Nagaika. The punk/grunge version of the whip dagger. Same basic stats as the whip dagger, except the crit is 20/x3 instead of 19-20/x2, and by RAW you are not proficient with the nagaika if you are already proficient with the whip. However, if you want your Str bonus on damage, you have to deal with the idiocy of paying extra for a Mighty Nagaika (you can't really construct a whip to "perform better" with a stronger arm... it's a whip, not a trestle bridge). Under 3.5 rules, though, whips are melee weapons, and they already get Str bonus on damage by default. If you choose to update the nagaika to a melee weapon in order to keep it consistent with the whip rules, then paying for a mighty version would be pointless.

Collar of Cleverness. Lets you add 1/2/3 more tricks to your animal companion's repertoire, if your DM is being persnickety about such things.

Tailored Infusion table (page 33). Scribe Scroll does everything infusions can do, so there's no real need to mess with infusions at all. This table is all fluff, but it's a neat way to come up with obscure ingredients for any potion/elixir/antidote/etc.

Deepwood Sniper PrC. There is a very, very short list of PrCs for archers that don't completely suck. This one is on that list, although mostly as a 1-2 level dip to pick up Keen Arrows (Ex) and Projectile Improved Critical.

Hexer PrC. One of the very few divine PrCs that offers full BAB and 10/10 spellcasting. Entry requirements are a bit annoying, though... you need to be able to cast lightning bolt as a divine spell, and it doesn't appear on any domain lists. Adept, Archivist (filching from the Adept), and Shugenja can get in... and I think Favored Soul with a Bahamut/Tiamat ACF of some sort.

Windrider PrC. Sort of a generic "buff my mount" PrC, this might be worth a dip if you're looking to get a couple bonus HD or bonus feat for your mount. It also has a smattering of divine spellcasting, but the spell list is really underwhelming.

Feathers spell. Sort of the treehugger version of a mass overland flight spell, this can transform the entire party into flying animals. Lasts 1 hour/CL, so mostly useful for long-distance travel.

Fire Eyes spell. Negates concealment when looking through smoke, fire, and fog. However, it doesn't work against magical fog, such as from obscuring mist or fog cloud, and thus for the longest time I thought this spell was useless. Then I noticed that by RAW, magical smoke isn't the same thing as magical fog. Thus, this spell should allow you to see through a wall of smoke (Spell Compendium) or pyrotechnics (Core) effect. Likewise, it should also work with a smokestick or Eversmoking Bottle (DMG).

Green Blockade spell. 2nd level wall spell for druids, if you're looking for such a thing. Only 20' long (doesn't scale, doesn't mention height), but presumably this can be used to encase a medium-sized creature in a 5' x 5' square, forcing them to make a Str check DC 15 to break out. Also provides vegetation for entangle spells, if you happen to be in a location that doesn't have any, and can't use spore field (Complete Scoundrel) or impeding stones (Cityscape) for some reason.

Might of the Oak/Persistence of the Waves/Speed of the Wind spells. These are similar to bull's strength/bear's endurance/cat's grace, except you get a +4 enhancement bonus to one ability along with a -2 enhancement penalty to something else. Assuming you can stack all three together, net effect of Str +2/Dex +2/Con +2. The other difference is they have the old 3.0 duration, so 10 min/CL, which lasts a little longer than the 3.5 versions.

Power Sight spell. 1st level druid spell, tells you the total HD/class levels a creature has. Assuming you have a desperate need to know this, there isn't all that much in 3.5 that can tell you this.

Handbell.

Song & Silence

Snatch Weapon feat. As with Improved Disarm, this is difficult to use reliably, and has the additional headache of making sure you have a hand free to grab the weapon. However, it's a great way to humiliate an enemy.

Alphorn. Increases range of Bardic Music/Dragonfire Inspiration to 1d10 miles.

Harmonica. After a performance in front of a non-aristocratic audience, +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Gather Information checks against anyone in the audience for 1d6 hours.

Natural Horn. Increases the attack and damage bonus from Inspire Courage from +1 to +2.

Whistle-pipe. +5 circumstance bonus on countersong attempts.

Sword & Fist

Mantis Leap feat. Turn any move action or "normal jump check" into a charge. Downside is it requires 7 levels of monk.

Knock-Down feat. Any time you do 10 points of damage, you get a free trip check. There's some controversy about whether Improved Trip can be combined with this for an additional free attack. The Sword & Fist errata says no. However, the feat was reprinted in Deities & Demigods, and then later published in the Divine section of the online SRD without the errata. So it's officially published in 3.5 without the errata... but nobody can figure out if this was intentional or WotC just forgot to include the errata.

Power Lunge feat. The wording is slightly different in Ghostwalk, but essentially this resets your Str bonus on damage to x2.0 on a charge, regardless of whether you're using a one- or two-handed weapon. It doesn't specify if this also applies to light weapons, offhand weapons, or secondary attacks with natural weapons... so... by RAW, those are x2.0 as well. While this doesn't quite fix one of the major drawbacks to TWF, it does help them keep pace with two-handers a little more easily.

Lasher/Master of Chains PrCs. Technically, both these PrCs were "replaced" by the 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master. However, nearly everyone ignores this, as these PrCs are designed much more specifically to take advantage of whips/whip daggers/spiked chains.

Order of the Bow Initiate PrC. Unlike the 3.5 version, this one is actually decent. If you want to do something with archery and ranged sneak attack, then you may want to beg/bribe/blackmail your DM into allowing the 3.0 version.

Fukimi-Bari. Ninja mouth-darts. Similar to the 3.0 shuriken, you can shoot three separate darts as part of a single attack. Every once in a while, these may show up in a build that does something "per hit", whether it's bonus damage of some sort, or a rider effect like a save vs. something (poison, stun, whatever).

Stump Knife. This is the only weapon still in the game with a 17-20 critical threat range. However, there are some drawbacks... you have to wound your opponent first, and you have to cut off one of your hands. There are some crit-fisher builds using some high-op tricks to get near-infinite or just arbitrarily high number of attacks by cheesing around with Aptitude/Lightning Mace combos.

Orc Shotput. 2d6 damage, 19-20/x3 crit. Essentially a "ball of numbers" lump of metal, but one of the more interesting throw weapons in the game. Since it has "orc" in the name, it's a candidate for Improved Weapon Familiarity (Complete Warrior). If I have room for it, I like to give these to low-level wizards/sorcerers for master's touch/launch item shenanigans.

Whip-Dagger. I find it very odd that this was never updated to 3.5. Allows you to do lethal damage with a whip and not get boned against targets that have an armor bonus. Technically by RAW, anyone proficient with whips (I'm looking at you, Mr. Bard) is also proficient with whip daggers. However, if you want your Str bonus on damage, you have to deal with the idiocy of the Mighty Whip Dagger (you can't construct a whip to "perform better" with a stronger arm... it's a whip, not a trestle bridge).

Ring of Mage Armor. 12000 GP, so 4K cheaper than Bracers of Armor +4.

Headband of Ferocity. Gives you the effects of Diehard for only 2000 GP.

Tome & Blood

Candlecaster PrC. Full 10/10 casting, adds some spell-storing abilities similar to Scribe Scroll but with candles. It's... somewhat more interesting than, say, just grabbing more levels in a base class that don't have any class features. It also gives you limited access to some basic metamagic feats that you didn't necessarily have the feat slots for.

Healing Salve. 50 GP, similar to a CLW potion, except it's a non-magical alchemical item. Can be used on Warforged. Good to have one of these tucked away somewhere, if you ever find yourself in dire straights while inside an AMF or dead magic zone.

Vest of Resistance. Same as the cloak, but different body slot.

Fun with Prestidigitation (page 80). All arcane spellcasters should have a photocopy of this page whenever they sit down to play.