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Niloptimist
2017-03-20, 09:29 PM
NOTE: This post contains potential spoilers for LMoP & HotDQ.

Hello! I'm a longish-time lurker on these forums, and as of a few weeks ago, a new DM, and I was wondering if I could pick your brain.

I'm DMing with mostly new players through The Lost Mines of Phandelver, but we plan to follow it up by Hoard of the Dragon Queen (don't know about after that, though). One of my players is an Aasimar Cleric, and when creating her character, she wanted to choose the domain of the tempest. Now, being a good Aasimar, she didn't want to choose an evil deity like Talos, so, having looked at the pantheon of the Forgotten Realms, she chose Akadi, the Queen of Air, a primordial that is True Neutral.

Next week, she plans to visit one of Akadi's shrines to contact her deity. Thing is, I have no clue what the god who represents the element of air wants, and if she asks something of her god, her god should want something of return (and she should want it regardless, the player being a cleric of hers).

So my question is as follows: What are the goals of a true neutral god?

[MINOR SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT RELATING TO THE SOMEWHAT OBVIOUS GOALS OF THE CULT FROM HotDQ!!!]

I was thinking of having Akadi demand the death of the cultist leader in Thundertree. For one, it'd make sense that Akadi wants the cult to be stopped- Tiamat returning is bad news for every god as far as I can tell, and it would having an order to assassinate a character might add interesting drama to the situation, as it goes against the group's usual behavior (my group is a well-oiled killing machine so far when it comes to evil, but very much not murder-hobos- they tend towards good in general), and perhaps give her a chance to roleplay more, while also differentiating her god (ok with having her assassinate enemies without question) from her angelic guide (who's a goody-two-shoes guardian angel). On the other hand, Akadi is True Neutral- would she care about Tiamut's return? I'm pretty sure the wind will remain regardless of whatever occurs (Again, I'm kinda new, so I don't know all the details of Tiamut's return).

Finally- kinda new to this forum. Hope this question is ok. Apologies if it's a bit long.

Telonius
2017-03-20, 10:23 PM
A deity that's in charge of an element in general would probably have a personality somewhat like the qualities traditionally ascribed to the element. For air, a bit of a free spirit; concerned with the intellectual, the spiritual, and freedom. (Maybe nix the last, since True Neutral). Being a god, they would want to be worshiped supreme in their element. If Tiamat returns, that could be a direct problem for Akadi - it's a rival for command of the air (since dragons are famous fliers).

Geddy2112
2017-03-20, 11:54 PM
Most neutral gods want some form of balance, on a cosmic scale. After that, they want to protect and ensure the safety of whatever the heck they deity over.

In the case of an elemental deity, they would strive to protect said element. They would also foster the use and propagation of that element on the material plane(and anywhere else they could). It is more self preservation, but also falls some into keeping balance-making sure air(in this case) is represented where it should be, and that no other element becomes too powerful.

Niloptimist
2017-03-21, 12:26 AM
Thanks for your suggestions so far! I guess what I'm struggling with is making a cosmic being whose goal is "balance' interesting. I dunno, I kinda associate keeping balance with having a passive role & personality except when the being keeping balance is infringed upon, rather than something that has something they want, and will react to get it. Perhaps I'm thinking of this wrong, but an NPC (even a god) who interacts by reacting to events rather than by pursuing their own goals seems inherently less interesting for the PCs to interact with.

Fri
2017-03-21, 01:10 AM
Well usuall gods do can see the future. Perhaps they can see that if tiamat return it will wreak havoc on the climate and there will be too much/too little winds. Or maybe not enough wind worshipper.

Also you can also see "neutral" as maybe "my goal is more important that collateral damage"? So the god will be "stop tiamat or wind will somehow stop flowing" but maybe nudge the cleric with more "do whatever it takes, the whole ecosystem is more important than a single orphanage"

Berenger
2017-03-21, 08:45 AM
I had no idea who Akadi is, so I looked her up in the Forgotten Realms Wiki: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Akadi


Based on that description and portfolio, I have the following suggestions for "quests":


A pilgrimage, just for the sake of experiencing a spiritual (and literal) journey (Travel).

Participation in a regatta or chariot race in her honor (Speed, figurative "Thunder").

Any quest protecting endangered flying creatures or exterminating "corrupted" flying creatures (Flying Creatures).

Freeing some air elementals captured by a wizard for whatever nefarious purpose (Air Elementals).

Hindering a cult dedicated to the worship of Grumbar, the Earthlord (Opposed Deity).

Also, look at the typical worshippers of Akadi and figure out which help those could need. I find sailors and animal breeders (suggestion: falconers, falconry is awesome!) to be the most interesting of the bunch.

N810
2017-03-21, 09:06 AM
http://bensbargains.com/thecheckout/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/neutral-futurama-propaganda-poster.jpg

Segev
2017-03-21, 09:10 AM
There are two ways to look at TN alignment: one is "strives for balance," but that's often too easy to make obnoxious. The other is "doesn't care one way or another, but isn't a jerk about it." (Being a jerk about it leans one towards evil.)

Boccob, for instance, is a god of magic and knowledge. He cares about learning, and helping others learn. His concern for balance is present, but mainly as a dispassionate desire to avoid having to deal with one side or another getting too strong to foist on their opponents should they bother him. He helps and supports his worshippers and people who share his goals. He punishes those who offend him. But he is not easily offended, and he doesn't delight in obeisance from those he can cow.

Akadi sounds a lot like one of the Wind Dukes, but they were LN, not TN, so I won't draw too much from them.

As a goddess of air, she likely is interested in creatures which dwell in her element, as well as natural processes dealing with the sky (storms, clouds, wind, lightning, etc.). She might concern herself with preventing invasion of her element by others ("seal a volcano" perhaps), or with expanding her element aggressively ("build a city underwater that contains air enough to support non-aquatic citizens"). She might be roused to anger against forces she previously cared little for if they attacked Aaracockra. She might also support a faithful civilization of Aaracockra who launched wars of conquest in her name, as long as they spread her worship and her element faithfully.

The pilgrimage idea is not a bad one; she may simply want her worshipper to see a sight and experience an environment which will further fill her with awe - not even totally selfishly, since in theory a cleric would enjoy such experiences. If she could thwart some harm to this sacred site in the process, so much the better.

In short, focus on her domain and interests. She's not going to go out of her way to help "the world," and she's not going to take delight in causing harm, but she won't mind it for the greater purpose of spreading her element. She probably finds needless evil distasteful, and worrisome as it could infringe on her interests, but thwarting it when it is no threat to her and hers is of limited interest to her.

Air deities tend to like flying creatures, storms, and might share some environmentalist care that their element not be overly polluted. (Though what is "pollution" may be debatable, as incense is often considered a good thing. So is smoke or smog really bad to the air goddess? Probably mainly based on how much it ruins the clarity of the air, with less concern over whether it's poisonous to beings who aren't her worshipers. And she's more likely to bless worshipers to survive it than really to care about clearing the poisons out, if the poisons aren't ruining its clarity.)

Pilgrimages, quests to stop volcanic eruptions, punitive efforts against those who sully the air (by her definition), aid to faithful or chosen creatures...these things make good tasks for her clerics to be set upon.

Niloptimist
2017-03-21, 07:38 PM
Thank you so much Segev and Berenger! I like the idea of sending her on a pilgrimage of sorts, performing a few tasks for Akadi. I'll be sure to incorporate some of your ideas into the campaign.

As for N810...



You made me laugh, and not in an "I-say-laugh-but-I-really-mean-exhale-out-my-nose" sorta way, so thanks for that :)

N810
2017-03-22, 09:21 AM
Thank you so much Segev and Berenger! I like the idea of sending her on a pilgrimage of sorts, performing a few tasks for Akadi. I'll be sure to incorporate some of your ideas into the campaign.

As for N810...


You made me laugh, and not in an "I-say-laugh-but-I-really-mean-exhale-out-my-nose" sorta way, so thanks for that :)

https://www.jarofquotes.com/img/quotes/ec6a738811d0c40589153fa0522a9389.jpg

MintyNinja
2017-03-22, 02:35 PM
My memory's a bit off, but I think at some point during HotDQ the players arrive on a flying castle run by Cloud Giants. This seems like the truest interest for Akadi. By guiding the cleric on this path of opposing the Cult of Tiamat, said cleric will eventually be able to remove that castle from it's usurpers. That also occurs pretty late in the game, so it's a good long term goal to have.

Also, feel free to intrude upon the character's dreams. Dreams of a flying castle wreathed in darkness and ice crashing into a mountain of fire is prophetic and ominous.

Mastikator
2017-03-22, 02:48 PM
Any goal that takes less than a millennium to achieve shouldn't register on a god's radar. They live forever, people are like fireworks to them.

Beneath
2017-03-22, 03:37 PM
Any goal that takes less than a millennium to achieve shouldn't register on a god's radar. They live forever, people are like fireworks to them.

Shar's assassination of Mystra at the end of the 3e era took ten years to put into action. The Time of Troubles was only six months long, and gods that have ascended since have held their positions for shorter than some mortals have been alive (in 5e times those mortals are elves and dwarves, though)

Akadi is older than everyone mentioned except Shar, but that doesn't mean gods don't have to act on a quick timespan in the Realms.

Mordar
2017-03-22, 03:56 PM
I second the idea that an Air divinity isn't going to much care about Law/Chaos or Good/Evil balance. So, the return of Tiamat won't matter from that perspective. Nor would it, I think, matter that it is a being that flies/spends time in the air.


After all, every creature on the earth and in the sky owes their existence to Air. Even the creatures that live in the water must pay homage to Air as they extract the life-giving substance from the water that surrounds them. Fire cannot exist without Air, so they too are under the sway of Air. Only those abberations that live wholly in the Earth (not the cave dwellers, but things constructed of only Earth) stand apart in this regard. But that is beside the point.

So why would Air care about a dragon queen? What would be worthy about such a thing to command the attention of Air itself? It is nice of you to ask, and the offering you provide is pleasant. Yes, I suppose I can do something for you since you took the time and trouble to perform the Ritual of Whispered Pleas to the Air Itself. Here's a [small boon]. You'll need to do something greater to deserve more of my time and attention. Of course, it isn't anything I couldn't do for myself. Just something I don't want to bother with today. Run off and [quest that has something to do with either slapping Earth around or fetching something Air related] and perhaps I'll do more for you.

So what are the desires of a neutral god of Air? Be worshiped. Make sure all beings recognize the elemental supremacy of Air. Let the clergy come up with their angle for begging assistance, otherwise default to the standard - divinities provide divine power for their worshipers. Special requests require special payment. No appealing to the "good of the order" if it doesn't directly benefit the divinity.

- M

Niloptimist
2017-03-22, 04:02 PM
My memory's a bit off, but I think at some point during HotDQ the players arrive on a flying castle run by Cloud Giants. This seems like the truest interest for Akadi. By guiding the cleric on this path of opposing the Cult of Tiamat, said cleric will eventually be able to remove that castle from it's usurpers. That also occurs pretty late in the game, so it's a good long term goal to have.

Also, feel free to intrude upon the character's dreams. Dreams of a flying castle wreathed in darkness and ice crashing into a mountain of fire is prophetic and ominous.

Thank you! I can't believe I didn't realize how easily you could tie the flying fortress to Akadi- This is gonna make hooking LMoP to HotDQ even better! Plus, this means they might find a potential friend in the giant, and potentially get a cool-as-heck flying castle at the end of the campaign (which would be a nice reward for their efforts).


Any goal that takes less than a millennium to achieve shouldn't register on a god's radar. They live forever, people are like fireworks to them.

While I think you make a good point about the timelessness of gods (they are, after all, entities that watch even nations flicker in and out of existence), I tend to agree with Beneath in that they are forced to act within a human/elf/dwarf life span, as events (such as the occurances during HotDQ) often occur within one generation. Also, from a narrative point of view, having them act on short term goals is not only more interesting from the PCs point of view (as that means they can accomplish those goals, not just contribute to them), but also necessary, as we only play for so long.

I suppose, hypothetically, you could run a campaign taking place over hundreds/thousands of years, using different PCs, and over the course of that time reveal the gods' plan, but I'm a new DM, and I'd rather not tackle that right now.

Niloptimist
2017-03-22, 04:49 PM
I second the idea that an Air divinity isn't going to much care about Law/Chaos or Good/Evil balance. So, the return of Tiamat won't matter from that perspective. Nor would it, I think, matter that it is a being that flies/spends time in the air.


After all, every creature on the earth and in the sky owes their existence to Air. Even the creatures that live in the water must pay homage to Air as they extract the life-giving substance from the water that surrounds them. Fire cannot exist without Air, so they too are under the sway of Air. Only those abberations that live wholly in the Earth (not the cave dwellers, but things constructed of only Earth) stand apart in this regard. But that is beside the point.

So why would Air care about a dragon queen? What would be worthy about such a thing to command the attention of Air itself? It is nice of you to ask, and the offering you provide is pleasant. Yes, I suppose I can do something for you since you took the time and trouble to perform the Ritual of Whispered Pleas to the Air Itself. Here's a [small boon]. You'll need to do something greater to deserve more of my time and attention. Of course, it isn't anything I couldn't do for myself. Just something I don't want to bother with today. Run off and [quest that has something to do with either slapping Earth around or fetching something Air related] and perhaps I'll do more for you.

So what are the desires of a neutral god of Air? Be worshiped. Make sure all beings recognize the elemental supremacy of Air. Let the clergy come up with their angle for begging assistance, otherwise default to the standard - divinities provide divine power for their worshipers. Special requests require special payment. No appealing to the "good of the order" if it doesn't directly benefit the divinity.

- M

I really like what you wrote, and if I'm honest, it makes a lot more sense than what I'm planning right now. However, I worry that it isn't very interesting from the player's perspective. When you have an apathetic god, though perhaps it might have RP potential for a character whose foremost desire is to impress that god (and turn their apathy to attention), I worry that for my player, it'll just make their choice to be a cleric seem inconsequential, a wizard with healing spells, rather than a priest with a connection to something greater.

Again, what you wrote was really cool (I really like the bit where you describe how air makes all other beings possible), but I think it might not be the best thing to keep my player engaged? Plus, it's important that the players have some reason to care about Tiamut's return, beyond "this is the adventure we have" and "it's the end of the world!". Using her god might be a chance for that.

(Edit: I hope I don't seem ungrateful for your input. The opposite is true, and I really appreciate your feedback)

Anderlith
2017-03-22, 04:52 PM
I've always felt that gods should care about their purview before their alignment. So if the cult is befouling her clean air, then that's a great reason to go killing them

KillianHawkeye
2017-03-22, 06:45 PM
Neutral people don't have goals and desires, they just meander through life not caring about anything! It's a commonly known fact! :smallwink::smallamused:



Oh, and you might want to read up on the difference between deities and primordials in 4th Edition. I'm not sure worshiping a primordial is a valid choice for a Cleric, strictly speaking.

Beneath
2017-03-22, 10:07 PM
Judging by the adventure titles, this is 5e. Also, Akadi has always had Clerics in FR (not very many, but some) and was retconned (I think during 4e) into being a primordial.

KillianHawkeye
2017-03-22, 11:27 PM
Judging by the adventure titles, this is 5e. Also, Akadi has always had Clerics in FR (not very many, but some) and was retconned (I think during 4e) into being a primordial.

Is that so? I seemed to recall 4th Ed having some similar sounding adventures. My mistake!

tomandtish
2017-03-23, 09:08 AM
I second the idea that an Air divinity isn't going to much care about Law/Chaos or Good/Evil balance. So, the return of Tiamat won't matter from that perspective. Nor would it, I think, matter that it is a being that flies/spends time in the air.


Very much this.

Don't get caught in the trap that just because a god is neutral means they are a defender of balance. Gods care about their portfolios and (in most cases) their followers. Unless that portfolio indicates a need for balance, any neutral god is probably neutral more because they aren't taking a stand on one end of the spectrum or another.

Case in point: Oghma. A neutral deity (last I checked anyway), he allowed clerics of any alignment. His thing was simply knowledge. He wasn't neutral because he felt there was a balance to maintain, but because knowledge should be available to all without question.

This puts him in conflict with evil gods more often than good gods, but that was because they were more likely to engage in secrets, suppression of knowledge, etc. In short, he opposes them because they conflict with his portfolio, not because they are evil. And he has opposed good gods if the circumstances called for it, but for the same reasons.


As for why Akadi might want her cleric to go, there are always reasons. Maybe there's something (or someone) of hers she wants recovered. Maybe it's an opportunity to avenge an old wrong. Maybe she owes a favor to another deity who is cashing in the marker. After all, even gods can have debts and maybe this one has finally come due (which could set up a FURTHER adventure if it is a marker she really doesn't want to meet but has to).

Mordar
2017-03-23, 12:29 PM
I really like what you wrote, and if I'm honest, it makes a lot more sense than what I'm planning right now. However, I worry that it isn't very interesting from the player's perspective. When you have an apathetic god, though perhaps it might have RP potential for a character whose foremost desire is to impress that god (and turn their apathy to attention), I worry that for my player, it'll just make their choice to be a cleric seem inconsequential, a wizard with healing spells, rather than a priest with a connection to something greater.

Again, what you wrote was really cool (I really like the bit where you describe how air makes all other beings possible), but I think it might not be the best thing to keep my player engaged? Plus, it's important that the players have some reason to care about Tiamut's return, beyond "this is the adventure we have" and "it's the end of the world!". Using her god might be a chance for that.

(Edit: I hope I don't seem ungrateful for your input. The opposite is true, and I really appreciate your feedback)

I think it is super important to understand that my presentation was not intended as apathetic - there is a great deal of room for engagement and concern, but it just might not be in this specific case. I wouldn't have Akadi consider Tiamat a rival or a force to be directly opposed. Tiamat just doesn't matter to Air in that way. That doesn't mean that Akadi doesn't care about things...just not a dragon god.

I agree that you have to walk a fine line with virtually all clerics to avoid them becoming, as you said, a wizard that heals. The character should consider and embrace the nature of their divine power source - strive to reflect or perhaps even embody the divinity and work to gain esteem in the eyes of the divinity (perhaps as represented by the mortal church, perhaps as represented by special divine attention). But there also needs to be a degree of understanding that a single cleric is like an employee of a large corporation. It takes a lot of time, dedication and work to get the attention of the C-suite, but less the Chairman of the Board (e.g. low and mid level clerics don't get much in the way of special attention...they get the automated prayer answering service).

However, those clerics - like corp employees - can also have other interests, hobbies and concerns. They can want to race giant ride-able chickens, fly around in airships and they can certainly want to fight bad dragon queens that want to destroy their way of life. And they can definitely use all of their assets to do so. If, however, they want the Chairman of the Board to care about their hobby or side-gig, it is on them to frame it in a way that makes the CoB want to come on board. That can be, I think, a great RP opportunity and you have touched on it in your response (earning attention).

Slight aside: I think there is every reason to consider having a cleric-centric adventure that tightens the bond between the divinity and the character and allows the cleric player some spotlight time. But that doesn't mean it has to be the current adventure. Have Akadi want something done - make it something that really sings with Air - and have that great "Mission from God" moment...but make sure the cleric has earned being the special errand clergy. Focusing that story makes it more special than having the Tiamat story be "bad things happening to good people", "saving the world again", and "mission from god for the Air cleric" all piled together.


Very much this.

Don't get caught in the trap that just because a god is neutral means they are a defender of balance. Gods care about their portfolios and (in most cases) their followers. Unless that portfolio indicates a need for balance, any neutral god is probably neutral more because they aren't taking a stand on one end of the spectrum or another.

[SNIP]

As for why Akadi might want her cleric to go, there are always reasons. Maybe there's something (or someone) of hers she wants recovered. Maybe it's an opportunity to avenge an old wrong. Maybe she owes a favor to another deity who is cashing in the marker. After all, even gods can have debts and maybe this one has finally come due (which could set up a FURTHER adventure if it is a marker she really doesn't want to meet but has to).

I think there's a great thing to catch here too - divinities often care a great deal about their followers, particularly their clergy. Now, they still have to earn that care - adhering to dictates of the order, promoting the portfolio, etc - but this is the basis of why divinities empower clerics to cast spells. They care enough to share some energy and trust the followers enough to allow them to chose how to use that energy.

But you as GM can always find a rationale that says "Akadi is more invested in this than normal" if you need to, for whatever reason. Maybe Tiamat's lead priest in the region has been talking at length about how she will "Rule the Skies" or something of that nature...I'm just saying it doesn't have to be something you do each time.

- M

PS: This isn't the culmination of the campaign, is it? If so and I missed that, my apologies!

Herobizkit
2017-03-23, 10:01 PM
Primordials are ineffable beings who simply exist because They Were There First. I feel that an Elemental Primordial's only concern is ensuring that their element (in this case, their whole Elemental Realm) operates as it should. They don't have desires or needs like mortals.

IMO, a cleric worshiping a Primordial isn't too far removed from a Great Old One Warlock's Pact - the cleric gets some "support juice" in exchange for worship. Odds are high that said cleric won't be able to change the fundamental nature of existence with her power, and that's just fine with the Primordial.

Pauly
2017-03-24, 12:55 AM
My suggestion is to read up on Greek Gods. Most of them would fit closer to neutral than good or evil in D&D terms.

Their conflicts were about things that affected their areas of concern, getting more followers than other gods, downright petty squabbles, taking an interest in important followers (rewarding those who please them, punishing those who displease).

Essentially they are self-interested, not disinterested or uninterested, about what is happening in the world.

So in your campaign Akadi (sp?) would want more prestige, more followers. Something that would get more followers to her temples.

Niloptimist
2017-03-24, 02:16 AM
I think it is super important to understand that my presentation was not intended as apathetic - there is a great deal of room for engagement and concern, but it just might not be in this specific case. I wouldn't have Akadi consider Tiamat a rival or a force to be directly opposed. Tiamat just doesn't matter to Air in that way. That doesn't mean that Akadi doesn't care about things...just not a dragon god.

I agree that you have to walk a fine line with virtually all clerics to avoid them becoming, as you said, a wizard that heals. The character should consider and embrace the nature of their divine power source - strive to reflect or perhaps even embody the divinity and work to gain esteem in the eyes of the divinity (perhaps as represented by the mortal church, perhaps as represented by special divine attention). But there also needs to be a degree of understanding that a single cleric is like an employee of a large corporation. It takes a lot of time, dedication and work to get the attention of the C-suite, but less the Chairman of the Board (e.g. low and mid level clerics don't get much in the way of special attention...they get the automated prayer answering service).

However, those clerics - like corp employees - can also have other interests, hobbies and concerns. They can want to race giant ride-able chickens, fly around in airships and they can certainly want to fight bad dragon queens that want to destroy their way of life. And they can definitely use all of their assets to do so. If, however, they want the Chairman of the Board to care about their hobby or side-gig, it is on them to frame it in a way that makes the CoB want to come on board. That can be, I think, a great RP opportunity and you have touched on it in your response (earning attention).

Slight aside: I think there is every reason to consider having a cleric-centric adventure that tightens the bond between the divinity and the character and allows the cleric player some spotlight time. But that doesn't mean it has to be the current adventure. Have Akadi want something done - make it something that really sings with Air - and have that great "Mission from God" moment...but make sure the cleric has earned being the special errand clergy. Focusing that story makes it more special than having the Tiamat story be "bad things happening to good people", "saving the world again", and "mission from god for the Air cleric" all piled together.



You make some great points, and I think the term apathetic was bad word choice on my part. I also think you're right about there being no real enmity between Tiamat and Akadi. From what I've read about Tiamat (mostly from the forgotten realms wiki), I don't see any reason why they should be opposed (and I'm not sure any god would actually want to go to war with the primordial embodying the element of air).

You also make a good point about how any cleric is just one part of a much larger whole, or as you put it, a low-level employee. Ultimately, Akadi has many followers, and she is just one of them, a relatively recent one (from Akadi's POV) at that. However, despite our adventure thus far taking less than a tenday in-game, they just reached level three, which means she just received a ton of spells, and is growing more and more powerful. Now, I recognize that you can't necessarily always give a reason for how quickly PCs get more powerful in-game (sometimes it's best to just be handwavy in regards to abilities that should've taken years to learn), but it would be nice if I could recognize how powerful they're becoming in-game by saying that her deeds are gaining Akadi's favor, resulting in her receiving new divine abilities...

...on the other hand, as much as I want to make my player feel special, from what you said, it sounds like I might accidentally cheapen it by making Akadi choose her too quickly without much effort on her part. I dunno, I want to capitalize on the character she's chosen, to let her play it to its full potential (more than anything, I want to make my players' choices feel like they matter- and that's something I'm still learning how to do), but like you said, just because she's a cleric doesn't mean her whole story has to be about being a cleric (plus, sometimes you do need to take a break and ride some chickens, instead of dealing with the whims of your gods). I am, however, hesitant to wait. I was watching some of Matt Coleville's DMing videos, and something he said about waiting stuck with me (he was talking about waiting a long time before handing out magic items, and using them sparingly, but I think it could apply here too); he said that we tend to assume games will go on forever, when in fact they will very likely end before we know it. Eventually, the game will end or she'll die and roll a new character, so if I'm going to give her a story tied to her choice as a cleric of Akadi, it might be better to do it now.

One solution I'm mulling over is to let her know that Akadi is looking for a champion, and have priests of Akadi give her small quests (like the aforementioned pilgrimages) to prove her worth, while knowing that all throughout the forgotten realms there are other champions doing the same. This would reinforce your point that she is part of a larger whole (one employee among many), but also that there's opportunity to be more (and rise through the ranks). From there, the small tasks she completes for Akadi could then lead to bigger quests (flying fortress). I'm still not sure how I'd tie it to Tiamat beyond the flying fortress, or to the cult directly, but we'll see.




I think there's a great thing to catch here too - divinities often care a great deal about their followers, particularly their clergy. Now, they still have to earn that care - adhering to dictates of the order, promoting the portfolio, etc - but this is the basis of why divinities empower clerics to cast spells. They care enough to share some energy and trust the followers enough to allow them to chose how to use that energy.

But you as GM can always find a rationale that says "Akadi is more invested in this than normal" if you need to, for whatever reason. Maybe Tiamat's lead priest in the region has been talking at length about how she will "Rule the Skies" or something of that nature...I'm just saying it doesn't have to be something you do each time.

- M

PS: This isn't the culmination of the campaign, is it? If so and I missed that, my apologies!

I really like the idea of making it folks within the cult, rather than Tiamat herself, that gets Akadi involved. Thanks for your advice. Maybe I'll start by singling out one of the cult in Thundertree, and have them, specifically, be someone that has angered Akadi (I've been editing the encounter a bit). I'll see. I think I'll just have to keep brainstorming reasons that Akadi should care.

Whatever the case, thank you so much for your help Mordar. This is actually towards the beginning of our campaign (well, middle-ish of LMoP), and as a new DM, I really appreciate your advice.

Niloptimist
2017-03-24, 02:35 AM
Very much this.

Don't get caught in the trap that just because a god is neutral means they are a defender of balance. Gods care about their portfolios and (in most cases) their followers. Unless that portfolio indicates a need for balance, any neutral god is probably neutral more because they aren't taking a stand on one end of the spectrum or another.

Case in point: Oghma. A neutral deity (last I checked anyway), he allowed clerics of any alignment. His thing was simply knowledge. He wasn't neutral because he felt there was a balance to maintain, but because knowledge should be available to all without question.

This puts him in conflict with evil gods more often than good gods, but that was because they were more likely to engage in secrets, suppression of knowledge, etc. In short, he opposes them because they conflict with his portfolio, not because they are evil. And he has opposed good gods if the circumstances called for it, but for the same reasons.


As for why Akadi might want her cleric to go, there are always reasons. Maybe there's something (or someone) of hers she wants recovered. Maybe it's an opportunity to avenge an old wrong. Maybe she owes a favor to another deity who is cashing in the marker. After all, even gods can have debts and maybe this one has finally come due (which could set up a FURTHER adventure if it is a marker she really doesn't want to meet but has to).

That's a good point about neutrality. I guess I'm having trouble because what Akadi wants isn't as clear as it is with Oghma (a great example btw. I'm new to Forgotten Realms lore, so that info was quite appreciated). Oghma has a goal built in right there- knowledge, whereas with Akadi, the only part of her that is immediately clear is that she cares for the creatures of the air. I agree that this doesn't make her goal balance per se, but I worry I might not be able to give her plausible goals that'll lead to active (rather than passive) action without changing her character entirely (which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing... our campaign takes place in the Forgotten Realms, but I don't see a reason not to change the lore as needed).


Primordials are ineffable beings who simply exist because They Were There First. I feel that an Elemental Primordial's only concern is ensuring that their element (in this case, their whole Elemental Realm) operates as it should. They don't have desires or needs like mortals.

IMO, a cleric worshiping a Primordial isn't too far removed from a Great Old One Warlock's Pact - the cleric gets some "support juice" in exchange for worship. Odds are high that said cleric won't be able to change the fundamental nature of existence with her power, and that's just fine with the Primordial.

I guess my problem with that first part is that while having a being with no desires or needs makes a lot of sense for a primordial (she's basically- perhaps literally, a force of nature), it makes for a non-character. Without goals outside of herself, Akadi may as well be a divine) battery charging cleric spells.

As for being like the Great Old One, I suppose that makes sense, and in a way that's how I'm approaching the situation as I try to make some sort of relationship between her and her deity (though like Mordar said, I should be focusing more on the fact that she is one of many worshipers), but again, if I treat it as receiving "support juice" as a reward just for being Akadi's worshiper, than Akadi ceases to be an interesting. An incomprehensible being who'll hand out power for worship is just a power source with weird requirements, not a character (again, divine battery).


My suggestion is to read up on Greek Gods. Most of them would fit closer to neutral than good or evil in D&D terms.

Their conflicts were about things that affected their areas of concern, getting more followers than other gods, downright petty squabbles, taking an interest in important followers (rewarding those who please them, punishing those who displease).

Essentially they are self-interested, not disinterested or uninterested, about what is happening in the world.

So in your campaign Akadi (sp?) would want more prestige, more followers. Something that would get more followers to her temples.

Reading up on the old gods would definitely help with my portraying these pantheons. Thanks for the advice. However, much for the same reasons I outlined above, I hesitate to make them disinterested or uninterested, simply because then they cease to matter to the players at all. Self-interested is in the right direction (because it means some interaction on Akadi's part), but my player probably isn't just following Akadi for power (you can go to wizard school, or become a warlock, for that), so it'd probably be good to give Akadi reasons that the player might want to contribute to (or at least make Akadi likable enough on some level so she has reason to follow her). As for having the goal of simply gaining more followers for Akadi, while it makes sense from a story POV, it doesn't exactly sound fun for my player (going door to door asking "Have you heard of our lord and savior- no, not those other 200 lords and saviors- ours, Akadi?" might get old after awhile).

Pauly
2017-03-24, 06:53 AM
Reading up on the old gods would definitely help with my portraying these pantheons. Thanks for the advice. However, much for the same reasons I outlined above, I hesitate to make them disinterested or uninterested, simply because then they cease to matter to the players at all. Self-interested is in the right direction (because it means some interaction on Akadi's part), but my player probably isn't just following Akadi for power (you can go to wizard school, or become a warlock, for that), so it'd probably be good to give Akadi reasons that the player might want to contribute to (or at least make Akadi likable enough on some level so she has reason to follow her). As for having the goal of simply gaining more followers for Akadi, while it makes sense from a story POV, it doesn't exactly sound fun for my player (going door to door asking "Have you heard of our lord and savior- no, not those other 200 lords and saviors- ours, Akadi?" might get old after awhile).

To get more followers into the temp,e the priests needed to provide a reason to go there.
Some examples from Greece/Rome (since the Romans cut and pasted the Greek gods)
Famous works of art (can be portable art, or the services of a famous artist)
Famous archticture (needs a famous architect)
Oracles
Famous writings. Collected wisdom or books of prophesy
Places where the divinity were more likely to answer the requests of followers
spectacular rituals. Maybe in the FR you need a particular monster captured for a special ritual
Straight up wealth and power. Implied message - If you follow this God you too can become rich and powerful.
Artifacts. double bonus points if you steal them from a rival god. Maybe an artifact that Talos has stashed in one of his temples that controls tempests. Too powerful for your player's character, but suitable for your PC's god.

Thaneus
2017-03-24, 08:55 AM
True Neutral Gods are quite different from each other as are their desire or goals.
Boccob wants knowledge and to teach
Io wants Balance to the Dragons
Ao wants to sleep or create or separate or screams on lower deity: "shut the F*** up and play in separate sandpit!" and sleeps again

Saying all True Neutral have no dreams or ambition is the same as to tell all rectangles are the only squares and no other exist.
Animals at least have the ambition to live and to reproduce, its simple, they don't want to dominate worlds but it is an ambition presented for all living.
Well being immortal and all as a God the reproducing stuff goes out the window, maybe... maybe not..., but IMHO even the tardiest and lazyiest god has some kind of ambition like this balance stuff some other guys talk about or... food or... music... "hey dionysos what you do again?" "You missed ecstasy, party and madness mate!" "yeah ok, thanks drunkard!" like this.

Some neutral gods might be very evil from "mortal" point of view, like a god of destruction who destroys stuff which became overdue from a fate point of view. He does not care about the stuff on these the same way as a exterminator about killing rats and roaches.

So basically a TN god can have any ambition or goal who as the DM desire it to be, but don't leave out the context.

usorer
2017-03-25, 01:07 PM
To promote non-violence and peaceful world.

Jay R
2017-03-26, 10:14 AM
It is not true that there are only nine sets of goals and desires for a god. There are nine thousand, or nine million, so defining the god's alignment does not particularly narrow down the options.

A nature god would be neutral. His only goals would be that the world continue, and that natural laws continue. He might (or might not) be virulently anti-undead, because the undead are unnatural. He might (or might not) be opposed to dams, bridges, tunnels, irrigation, or any other attempts by humans to control nature.

A weather god would be neutral. Her goals and desires would be not much more than that weather continue.

A god of a purely neutral race would be neutral. He would want the best results for that race.

A god of music might be neutral. She would want harmony and balance in all things.

A god of sloth would be neutral, and would just want to be left alone.

A god of magic would be neutral, and want as many good spells as evil spells in the world, and vice versa.

There might be three (or nine) gods of a particular nation. They would all want the best possible for that kingdom, and differ only in how they believe that that goal should be achieved.


Don't define a god by alignment and then try to determine what he or she desires. Establish what he or she desires, and how he or she wants to achieve those goals, and from that, determine the alignment.

Just like a PC.

tomandtish
2017-03-27, 06:15 PM
Thank you! I can't believe I didn't realize how easily you could tie the flying fortress to Akadi- This is gonna make hooking LMoP to HotDQ even better! Plus, this means they might find a potential friend in the giant, and potentially get a cool-as-heck flying castle at the end of the campaign (which would be a nice reward for their efforts).


I was able to get ahold of a copy to look it over. yeah, this is a very easy tie-in right here.


I think there's a great thing to catch here too - divinities often care a great deal about their followers, particularly their clergy. Now, they still have to earn that care - adhering to dictates of the order, promoting the portfolio, etc - but this is the basis of why divinities empower clerics to cast spells. They care enough to share some energy and trust the followers enough to allow them to chose how to use that energy.

But you as GM can always find a rationale that says "Akadi is more invested in this than normal" if you need to, for whatever reason. Maybe Tiamat's lead priest in the region has been talking at length about how she will "Rule the Skies" or something of that nature...I'm just saying it doesn't have to be something you do each time.


Exactly. Case in point, suppose...

Esclarotta was a former priestess of Akadi? She's now stuck as the powering force for the castle. I'm unclear if she was initially willing, but you can certainly make it that she's not now. Tweak it so she IS aware of what her husband is doing and doesn't approve, but is bound to obey his wishes. Also opens up a fun moral challenge. Can you get her out? if so, what happens to the castle?

You can even have it that Blagothkus doesn't even realize that this is causing his wife pain (emotional at the very least). He's so wrapped up in his plan that he has tunnel vision. In that case, what happens if he realizes what he is doing to her.

eru001
2017-03-30, 09:35 AM
What drives a man to be neutral? Is it money, Lust for power? Or is he just born with a heart full of neutrality.