Hobgoblins - the fluff doesn't match the crunch

[Particle_Man]

Hobgoblins are described as "burly and muscled" in the advanced race guide, as well as "Tall, tough as nails, and strongly built". Taller than what? Goblins? The Bestiary says they are 5' tall and weigh 160 lbs.

Militaristic, war-loving, etc. OK, fine. They are meant to be lawful, disciplined orcs according to the fluff.

But the racial description of hobgoblins doesn't match that. There is no strength bonus for hobgoblins. They do get Con, which at least matches some of the fluff, but instead of Str they get Dex. They have a skill bonus is for stealth, which is nice, but more for "quiet rogue/ninja types" than for "militaristic war types".

Hobgoblin crunch doesn't make them good warriors (well, archers, but that is very specialized - you can't field an army with *only* archers). It makes them good rogues.

Hobgoblin crunch makes for good "sneaky" types. The monster that hides under the bed or in the closet (it can see in the dark, after all).

The crunch and fluff diverge in another way. In the bestiary description of hobgoblins, "Many hobgoblin tribes combine their love of warfare with keen intellects". You'd think that this would mean either an INT bonus or perhaps some kind of skill bonus related to warfare (knowledge engineering perhaps?). But that isn't the case. It is at best an "alternate racial trait". Most hobgoblins are sneaks.

So what should give way? Should the fluff be changed to match the crunch? Or should the crunch be modified to match the fluff?

[Coidzor]

Hobgoblins are described as "burly and muscled" in the advanced race guide, as well as "Tall, tough as nails, and strongly built". Taller than what? Goblins? The Bestiary says they are 5' tall and weigh 160 lbs.

Can't help you with the rest, but as for height....


Physical Description: Burly and muscled, hobgoblins stand a few inches shorter than the average human, and their long arms, thick torsos, and relatively short legs give them an almost apelike stature. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-hobgoblin/)


Standing as tall as a human, this muscular, gray-skinned creature peers about with tiny, observant eyes.

A hobgoblin stands 5 feet tall and weighs 160 pounds. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/hobgoblin.html)

I'd chalk it up to the hodgepodge of assumptions about what D&D humans' heights should generally be, and whether it should conform to perspectives that view historical humans as significantly smaller than contemporary humans.

[Kymro]

I'm running a campaign in thay right now, and it sounds alot like the fluff from hobgoblin should belong to gnolls

[upho]

So what should give way? Should the fluff be changed to match the crunch? Or should the crunch be modified to match the fluff?I think you're right the fluff and crunch doesn't add up very well. To answer your question, it completely depends on what suits your setting, of course. Personally, if I wanted hobgoblins as described by the fluff, I'd make the following couple of mechanical changes:

+2 Str and +2 Int (or perhaps +2 Str and +2 Con).
+4 Intimidate (instead of +4 Stealth, ie their Fearsome ART becomes the default). Or maybe "add Int instead of Cha to Intimidate checks" (as the trait) if you also give the +2 Int bonus.

Regardless of which two alternatives you actually go for, I think this should be enough to make the hobgoblin racial traits actually match both the race's fluff and the mechanics of related hobgoblin specific options.

[Nupo]

Everything is relative, They are smart compared to orcs (that get a -2 to INT) and strong compared to goblins (that get a -2 on STR). Also, the 3.5 Monster Manual list them as 6-1/2 feet tall. If that figure better fits your sensibilities just use it instead.

[Geddy2112]

I would say the CON bonus is totally justified-being tone in an in totally good shape with well defined muscles does not a powerlifter make, but it does show that you are healthy and well built. I do agree the dex is a bit misplaced-I could see the long arms having something to do with it, but that gets cancelled out by the short legs and more apelike stature. That said, a lot of apes/primates are pretty nimble-chimps, orangutans, tree monkey, lemurs. There are of course babboons and gorillas that are less so by build.

I could see arguments for STR/CON, STR/INT or Even INT/CON as well, but I can see some argument for DEX/CON.




+4 Intimidate (instead of +4 Stealth, ie their Fearsome ART becomes the default).
There is an alternate racial trait that does this, but I agree it should be the default and the stealth trait be the alternate.

[Celestia]

How I would fix the Hobgoblins:

+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha
Darkvision 60 ft
+4 Intimidate
+2 Ride and Spot
Proficiency in simple weapons and light armor

+0 LA

[Segev]

Combining the fluff of "militant, well-organized warriors" with the crunch that says "sneaky gits," perhaps what we have here are the night-raiders from heck.

They value misdirection tactics disguised by seemingly-overt Roman Legion-style militancy. Their camps are set up nightly the way Legions used to. They march in formations, and they exercise - when they have overwhelming numbers - traditional, up front tactics.

And you only ever face them in overwhelming numbers.

Why? Because they actually are one of the stealthiest ambush-armies out there. They march at night and build their fort-camps in the day time. If they outnumber you at least 2-1, they will engage in obvious overwhelming assault. But they actually hide well, and they are trained not just in group tactics, but guerilla warfare in small units. The moment their scouts note a force to which they are not superior, the entire legion breaks into small groups and goes to ground. If it's important and the fight would be close to even, the whole army hides in ambush.

Thus the twin, conflicting notions of what hobgoblins are: to those who think in military terms, they are the best-organized goblinoid military out there; to those who think of individual monsters, they're things that go bump in the night.

And again, hobgoblins don't fight during the day if they don't have to. They have darkvision, and they use it.

[Psyren]

Everything is relative, They are smart compared to orcs (that get a -2 to INT) and strong compared to goblins (that get a -2 on STR). Also, the 3.5 Monster Manual list them as 6-1/2 feet tall. If that figure better fits your sensibilities just use it instead.

This - they are strong and smart (and tall) for goblinoids, the most common versions of which (goblins) have penalties in all of these areas. So the description is actually accurate.

[denthor]

When I ran a hobgoblin cleric someone presented me a stat block that was +5 to strength -4 to wisdom. Does that fit your conseption?

[nyjastul69]

For those who don't mind licensed 3rd party content, and want to 'go whole hog' with hobgoblins, KenzerCo released a 160 page 3.5 source book titled Strength and Honor: The Mighty Hobgoblins of Tellene (https://www.amazon.com/Strength-Honor-Hobgoblins-Dungeons-Sourcebook/dp/1889182664). The setting includes a hobgoblin nation, hence a dedicated race book. The book includes: five hobgoblin subraces, a new HG variant class, new HG spells, new HG weapons and armor, 5 HG PrC's, feats for HG PC's and NPC's, new HG skills and new variant rules. Huh, so the subraces, PrC's, and feats aren't actually new? They in fact are. Lol

Okay, enough back cover selling point bullets. The KoK fluff is pretty easy to remove or reflavor. The generic HG flavor is pretty cool and fleshes out HG's well. It's a very crunch heavy book with lots of flavor. I think it's one of KenzerCo's best books.

Full Disclosure: I'm a fan and I do have a bias, but you knew that.