OotA Paladin's Channel Divinity option is just bad in comparison...

[TGMohle]

To preface, I'm not talking about both channel divinity options that OotA receives. Turn the Faithless fits thematically and balance-wise in my opinion with Turn the Unholy (OoD) and Abjure Enemy (OoV). These are the "defensive" options that you recieve, and I quite like all of them.

What I'm talking about is the "offensive" option that you receive for the OotA as compared to the other two...

OoD - Sacred Weapon: You imbue your weapon with divine light as an action, gaining an attack roll bonus equal to your Charisma modifier for 1 minute!

OoV - Vow of Enmity: You vow to fell a heinous villain as a bonus action, gaining advantage against them for 1 minute until they die or get knocked unconcious!

OotA - Nature's Wrath: You shoot vines at someone as an action, possibly restraining them if the enemy (w/n 10 ft of you) fails their saving throw.

...really?

THAT'S SO LAME! Mind you, I'm not necessarily talking about how thematically fitting it is. I can see how commanding spectral vines would fit thematically with OotA (even though it does seem a little... meh). But talking from a balance standpoint, it doesn't fit with the other two AT ALL!

The other two basically give you pure combat bonuses that last for 1 minute, or 10 rounds. Sacred Weapon costs an action (which is kind of a bummer, I'd potentially house rule it to be a bonus action in my games) but the benefit is gaining up to your Charisma modifier on your attack rolls, which is pretty dope. Vow of Enmity gives you advantage against an enemy as a bonus action, and I don't think I need to explain how awesome that is.

In comparison... Nature's Wrath just falls flat. It provides combat bonuses (it restrains) but ONLY if the enemey fails his save. If it failed, that's all well and good I guess... but even if it hadn't, you didn't get to do anything that round, and it will likely only be restrained for the next round at most (at least in my experience), so the combat bonuses you might get from it are pretty insignificant. If you think about it, it's really just a rip off of Ensnaring Strike (WHICH IS ALREADY ONE OF YOUR OATH SPELLS AS OOTA!!!) without the concentration, a potential reduction in range depending on the weapon you're using at the time, AND it uses up your Channel Divinity slot til the next short or long rest.

It's just... plain bad. It sucks because I really enjoy the concept behind what the OotA Paladin represents: light, goodness, and hope in its purest form, and I love playing those kinds of characters. Honestly speaking, Nature's Wrath alone wouldn't keep me from picking OotA, but... wouldn't it be nice if it was at least mechanically up to par with the other "offensive" Channel Divinity options?

That's my two cents on the matter. It's probably been discussed many times on here before, but I just wanted to say my piece because it's been annoying me for the longest time lol.

ALSO: If anyone can think of a different ability that could tweak Nature's Wrath (or outright replace it), feel free to share! If I think of anything I'll probably edit this post or reply with what I've come up with.

[Tetrasodium]

ALSO: If anyone can think of a different ability that could tweak Nature's Wrath (or outright replace it), feel free to share! If I think of anything I'll probably edit this post or reply with what I've come up with.
I get the feeling that you might be asking as a gm or player the gm is willing to work with. why not

T h o r n W h i p
Transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (the stem o f a plant with thorns)
Duration: Instantaneous
You create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns that
lashes out at your com m and toward a creature in range.
Make a m elee spell attack against the target. If the
attack hits, the creature takes 1d6 piercing damage, and
if the creature is Large or smaller, you pull the creature
up to 10 feet closer to you.
This spell’s damage increases by 1d6 w hen you reach
5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

[Ninja_Prawn]

Eh, it may not have the raw combat power of the others, but battlefield control is important in its own way. The ancients paladin is tankier than the others, so this synergises well with their primary role. Also, it's not the only CD option you have, so any disappointment you might have with it isn't the end of the world.

On this point:


and it will likely only be restrained for the next round at most (at least in my experience)

what sticks in my mind is the last time my wizard got hit by Entangle. She failed 11 Strength saves/checks in a row, leaving her exposed to a horde of goblins and unable to hit them with her main attack spells (due to disadvantage). I was exceptionally lucky to survive that encounter.

[Theodoxus]

IDK, if you use the ability on an annoyingly dextrous but weak critter - one you might have difficulty hitting because high dex = high AC and they might be speedy, running around the combat sticking their rapier into your squishies and dealing painful sneak attacks... (Sounds exactly like my lightfoot swashbuckler...) Helps if I read the ability too... ok, so swap out dextrous for the evil cleric who probably has just enough strength and/or dexterity to wear his armor properly... :smallwink: However, if you do manage to get that Dextrous guy restrained the first round, he does have disad on breaking free...

Restraining them 1)keeps them from moving 2) grants you advantage on attacks 3) gives them disad (no sneak for you!) and 4) your cleric buddy will enjoy the sound of said critter frying under the radiant fires of his Sacred Flame.

Sure, it replicates the OoV advantage attacks... but, it keeps the thing from running away - OoV's tend to chase their target all over the place. Ancients be like 'yawn, I'm treebeard, I don't want to run. Stand still, laddie!'

OTOH, there's no duration noted on Nature's Wrath.... you could theoretically keep someone restrained until they die of thirst... If you get them the Poisoned Condition so all their saves are at disad... sounds like something an Ancient might do... using nature against a sworn enemy, but having a chance to escape 'should the [dice] gods will it.'

[JellyPooga]

It's important to note that Natures Wrath doesn't just give you a bonus like the other Oath CDs, but is a force multiplier for the whole party. It is strictly a more powerful effect, which is why it requires a Save to balance it out. If it didn't have that Save to negate it would be far and away the most powerful of the three, allowing you to lock down even big bruisers, give your whole party advantage to hit them and the target disadvantage on both attack rolls and Dex saves. That would be an insane ability.

No, Natures Wrath might look unapealing because of that Save and the fact that it eats your Action, but consider that Ensnaring Strike requires you to expend a spell slot (a daily resource compared to a short rest resource), hit the foe in the first place AND fail a Save for a similar effect and further that no-one can help the target of Natures Wrath to escape (unlike Ensnaring Strike). On top of that, the duration isn't limited and isn't broken by loss of concentration; for a front-liner that's a significant advantage.

Natures Wrath is a comparable ability to the other Oath CDs, perhaps even powerful compared to them.

[Spellbreaker26]

It's not great, but the Oath of the Ancients has what might be the best Aura of all of them. Its overall abilities are balanced; giving it a better channel divinity might make it too good.

[some guy]

Restrained is a really, really good condition, but I am not a fan of the target choosing which saving throw to use.
Still, I think the OotA has better spells than the OotD and a better aura than the OotD and OotV.

[joaber]

the only problem I see in that is the target choose between dex or str.Could be just Str ST, as entangle.

[Feuerphoenix]

I noticed, that all oaths are based Arround 3 aspects: Channel devinities, spells and abilities.

Devotion has the best channel divinity, good abilities and ok spells,
Anchients has the best abilities, good spells and ok CDs,
Vengeance has the best spells, good CDs and ok abilities.

I think this is the main reason why they chose it this way :)

[KorvinStarmast]

the only problem I see in that is the target choose between dex or str.Could be just Str ST, as entangle.
1. How do you set up disadvantage for a saving throw?
2. If you don't need concentration, you could have Bane up as a debuff ... so that you have better chance to restrain the target and then your allies make hash or relish out of it.

[toapat]

Natures Wrath is a comparable ability to the other Oath CDs, perhaps even powerful compared to them.

generally speaking, its kinda a rule of the core subclasses in general:

Vengenace has the best offensive spell list, but its features are lacking.

Devotion is well rounded, but wont beat the other subclasses.

Ancients has the best Mechanics, but its spellcasting is much weaker than other paladins

[Spellbreaker26]

Ancients has the best Mechanics, but its spellcasting is much weaker than other paladins

I disagree with that. It gets a much needed AoE in the form of Moonbeam fairly early on. The devotion paladin gets flame strike, but only at the fifth level of spells, by which time Ancients will additionally get Ice Storm at fourth.

[JellyPooga]

I disagree with that. It gets a much needed AoE in the form of Moonbeam fairly early on. The devotion paladin gets flame strike, but only at the fifth level of spells, by which time Ancients will additionally get Ice Storm at fourth.

It's worth pointing out that an upcast Moonbeam can be a truly terrifying spell. 5d10 (avg: 27.5) vs. Flame Strikes 8d6 (avg; 28), except delivered (potentially) multiple times per round.

Ancients by no means has the "weakest" spell list IMO.

[Spellbreaker26]

Ancients by no means has the "weakest" spell list IMO.

Indeed, I'd say weakest list might be devotion, which lacks Misty Step.

The reason Flame Strike isn't great is that it is for clerics, who haven't got great AoE. Though it does have the advantage of not being concentration...

[toapat]

Indeed, I'd say weakest list might be devotion, which lacks Misty Step.

The reason Flame Strike isn't great is that it is for clerics, who haven't got great AoE. Though it does have the advantage of not being concentration...

the reason flame strike sucks is that you cant upcast it, and it deals less damage and no status effect when compared ot the core Destructive Wave.

however, Devotion is the only way for paladins to get the Sanctuary spell.

[NecroDancer]

Don't you get crits on restrained creatures?

[Spellbreaker26]

the reason flame strike sucks is that you cant upcast it, and it deals less damage and no status effect when compared ot the core Destructive Wave.

however, Devotion is the only way for paladins to get the Sanctuary spell.

Sanctuary is OK but it's not better then Misty Step.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Don't you get crits on restrained creatures?

No, that's unconscious creatures. You get advantage against them and they have disadvantage on attacks and Dex saves. And can't move, obviously.

[Naanomi]

Oath of the Crown isn't exactly an offensive powerhouse either, but is more unique than the vines so perhaps better in that regard

[joaber]

1. How do you set up disadvantage for a saving throw?
2. If you don't need concentration, you could have Bane up as a debuff ... so that you have better chance to restrain the target and then your allies make hash or relish out of it.

1. restrainned is a good condition to set disadvantage in Str or Dex ST, lol. paralyzed, stunned, unconscious or petrified are auto fail, but who want restrain with those conditions?
2. you would need two actions to set Bane and the Nature's Wrath, and target can save bane (or both).

Problem with targeting choosing Dex or Str save, is that probably he get one good save in those, you'll not use this feature in mobs. the DC is based in your Cha, paladins used to max str or dex before Cha, so:
-strong enemy
-can choose biggest save
-dc not maxed
This give you 50% or less chance to restrain the target.

[Spellbreaker26]

Oath of the Crown isn't exactly an offensive powerhouse either, but is more unique than the vines so perhaps better in that regard

No, it's even more useless. It forces someone to stay within 30 ft, i.e. where your allies will be. At least with the Nature's Wrath they are actually inconvenienced if they fail a save. The only way it could be useful is if you're trying to prevent a bunch of people fleeing at once; and it's extremely easy for the Oath of the Crown to break it accidentally anyway by moving backwards.

[JellyPooga]

1. restrainned is a good condition to set disadvantage in Str or Dex ST, lol. paralyzed, stunned, unconscious or petrified are auto fail, but who want restrain with those conditions?
2. you would need two actions to set Bane and the Nature's Wrath, and target can save bane (or both).

Problem with targeting choosing Dex or Str save, is that probably he get one good save in those, you'll not use this feature in mobs. the DC is based in your Cha, paladins used to max str or dex before Cha, so:
-strong enemy
-can choose biggest save
-dc not maxed
This give you 50% or less chance to restrain the target.

To be fair, a 50% chance at any given save being made/failed is largely the best you can really hope for, without some outside influence like Bane or similar. It's why debuffs tend not to be that good; the chance of them sticking is usually pretty dicey at best and Natures Wrath is no exception.

[joaber]

To be fair, a 50% chance at any given save being made/failed is largely the best you can really hope for, without some outside influence like Bane or similar. It's why debuffs tend not to be that good; the chance of them sticking is usually pretty dicey at best and Natures Wrath is no exception.

but you agree that the chance of fail increase considerably when target can choose the save and you didn't maxed the DC ability? In fact the chance will probably be lower than 50%, maybe way lower.

If this target only Str, and I see that target is a skinny assassin, I increase in at least 15% or 20%.

[Spellbreaker26]

If this target only Str, and I see that target is a skinny assassin, I increase in at least 15% or 20%.

Restrained gives disadvantage on dex saving throws, I believe.

[joaber]

Restrained gives disadvantage on dex saving throws, I believe.

But he need to fail in dex ST before to be restrainned. So this doesn't help much in that case.

[Spellbreaker26]

But he need to fail in dex ST before to be restrainned. So this doesn't help much in that case.

Yeah, it means you just need that person to fail once and he's trapped. Hoping a person fails the first save isn't that bad.

Though since OoA has Ensnaring Strike, this ability is mainly useful on larger creatures. Even if you're only able to get them for one turn then that might be a whole lot of advantage strikes everyone else gets. I was able to make good use of it v.s. a Manticore since I had run out of spell slots and had nothing else.

[joaber]

Yeah, it means you just need that person to fail once and he's trapped. Hoping a person fails the first save isn't that bad.

Aw, good point, I forgot about that.

[KorvinStarmast]

2. you would need two actions to set Bane and the Nature's Wrath, and target can save bane (or both). Combats frequently last more than a round. (This is not a video game. )

Your can paladin can have Bane up from a previous round, or maybe your cleric has Bane up. It's a concentration buff.

But the point you make is worth discussing, since getting that save reduced is still up against the "pick my best save" for the target, and the best way to get disadvantage on dex saves, for example, is some other effect. Maybe your wizard is concentrating on a Slow spell (target has disadv on a dex save) .. so it chooses strength save?

This can get "fiddly" as it works out, if you are trying to increase the chance of restraining a target.

[Zalabim]

I know I thought of using Ensnaring Strike on an enemy that was already prone, so I could more readily ignore them. I'd certainly use Nature's Wrath on an enemy that happened to suffer a Stunning Strike, if I thought it was going to stick around for a little while anyway. You can also throw it on top of a Hold Person/Monster if you think the paralyzed condition isn't going to last long enough on its own, but that's a worse trade.

[Captain Panda]

It's not great, but the Oath of the Ancients has what might be the best Aura of all of them. Its overall abilities are balanced; giving it a better channel divinity might make it too good.

Exactly that. The designers didn't give ancients a bad channel divinity on accident, they knew what they were doing. Their level 7 feature is far and away the best of the bunch, but it pays for that by losing in other areas.

[JellyPooga]

Exactly that. The designers didn't give ancients a bad channel divinity on accident, they knew what they were doing. Their level 7 feature is far and away the best of the bunch, but it pays for that by losing in other areas.

I still maintain that Natures Wrath really isn't that bad. Yes it has a Save where the other CDs don't and yes, that Save is a choice of two stats, one of which is likely to be at least above average. However, if you can get it to stick even for one round, that's one entire round where a) the target is attacking with Disadvantage and b) your entire team has Advantage to hit the target. Even your spellcasting corp gets a nice little reprieve from the threat of the target coming for them and they can also open up with their AoE's without having to worry about them passing their Dex Save against it. Restrained is a crippling condition that can be a death sentence; anyone that's fought against Giant Spiders can attest to that.

[Bgharcourt]

Combats frequently last more than a round. (This is not a video game. )

Your can paladin can have Bane up from a previous round, or maybe your cleric has Bane up. It's a concentration buff.

No you can't have Bane up. It's not on the OotA spell list. Only OoV Paladins have that spell(or cleric, bards).

[Sception]

Yes nature's wrath is good if it lands, but it is so unlikely to land that it is never worth risking an action on it. Even if you can't make it to melee, you have better spells that you can cast instead, like bless or moonbeam or whatever. I've played ancients paladins a few times, and have never been in a situation where it was worth bothering with.

If it were only a strength save, or if it were a bonus action so you could toss it out on the off chance it might land, and not lose your whole turn if it doesn't, then it would be ok, but meh.

I don't think it 'needs' to be fixed, ancients is still decent overall. The spell list is nice - misty step has saved my characters' behinds on more than one occasion - and the aura is very nice, albeit somewhat situational.

I don't believe that the designers intentionally made some sub parts of different oaths intentionally weaker or stronger than others. That level of tuning and micromanagement is not on display anywhere else, and there are several counter examples where care and attention of that level was clearly not payed to other classes and subclasses in the game. The fact that the three core book oaths all balance out pretty well is something I take to be a happy accident rather than deliberate design. Still, while it isn't a critical change, I don't think it would break anything to make nature's wrath a legitimate ability, either. As it is, it's a trap option, one where OoA paladins in the hands of more casual players would likely be made more powerful by removing the ability altogether, so they wouldn't be tempted to waste actions on it, and that's just bad, unfun design. That kind of thing is never good for the game.

[SharkForce]

Eh, it may not have the raw combat power of the others, but battlefield control is important in its own way. The ancients paladin is tankier than the others, so this synergises well with their primary role. Also, it's not the only CD option you have, so any disappointment you might have with it isn't the end of the world.

On this point:



what sticks in my mind is the last time my wizard got hit by Entangle. She failed 11 Strength saves/checks in a row, leaving her exposed to a horde of goblins and unable to hit them with her main attack spells (due to disadvantage). I was exceptionally lucky to survive that encounter.

entangle is actually even more nasty than you think. attempting to escape with a check is an action, which means never mind disadvantage on the attack, if you try to break free you only have your bonus action left.

unfortunately, the OotA channel divinity does not work like that. it just gives a free saving throw every turn. nature's wrath is apparently not very wrathful.

[JellyPooga]

Yes nature's wrath is good if it lands, but it is so unlikely to land that it is never worth risking an action on it.

It's not really that much less likely to land than any spell cast by a Wizard or Cleric. Yes a Paladin will tend not to focus on Charisma as much as a spellslinger will their primary stat, but that doesn't mean they won't and between their other Charisma dependent abilities, there's a fairly strong incentive to have it high.

Then consider the actual difference between, say, a Paladin with Cha:14 (a reasonable expectation) and a Wizard with Int:16 (again a reasonable expectation, at least before level 4 and even as high as level 10). That +1 the Wizard gets over the Paladin isn't much to shout about and no-one complains about Hold Person being useless, despite Wisdom being a relatively high stat (12+) for a lot of critters in the MM.

The fact that Natures Wrath offers a choice between Strength and Dexterity isn't the massive drawback it's being made out to be, either; as has been discussed, you really only get the option to use Dex on the first Save. After that, you're rolling at Disadvantage and unless your Dex is massively higher than your Strength, that means it really only targets Strength.

Then consider that, action economy aside, it's really a throw-away resource that you can use every short rest. How often are you otherwise going to use your Channel Divinity? If you're up against something with a huge AC, then there's every chance that there's better odds of landing Natures Wrath than hitting with an attack, allowing you and the rest of your party the opportunity to wail on Mr.Armour Class at least until the end of the targets next turn.

It's only anecdotal, but I've had great results from Natures Wrath. Used infrequently or carelessly, yes, it will seem sub-par, but with a bit of savvy it can win encounters and in my experience it has and will continue to do so. Certainly not an ability to underestimate or ignore.

[KorvinStarmast]

No you can't have Bane up. It's not on the OotA spell list. Only OoV Paladins have that spell(or cleric, bards). Ah, good point, had forgotten that was a domain spell for Vengeance pals (which was the last one I played).

[Corran]

I also am of the opinion that it needs a boost to bring it on par with the channel divinities of the other oaths, but a small one. Fixing the save that it targets to be a str save would do the trick for me (as it is, it is better to try and target low str targets anyway, so maybe fixing the save to be a str one would be the best way to go; if you fix the save to be a dex one, it might become too strong.)

[Feuerphoenix]

generally speaking, its kinda a rule of the core subclasses in general:

Vengenace has the best offensive spell list, but its features are lacking.

Devotion is well rounded, but wont beat the other subclasses.

Ancients has the best Mechanics, but its spellcasting is much weaker than other paladins

Devotion is not only well rounded. It has the most powerful channel divinity ( advantage is not that hard to gain) and his abilities are pretty good. Especially his aura is very effective against a lot of hard encounters. In combination with his fear immunity it guarantees a party beeing in full combat capacity against any enemy. His lv 15 ability gives disadvantage to almost half of all creatures in fights against him, and they can't take him out of the game anymore. His lv 20 ability...is open for some improvement :P

[Spellbreaker26]

Devotion is not only well rounded. It has the most powerful channel divinity ( advantage is not that hard to gain) and his abilities are pretty good. Especially his aura is very effective against a lot of hard encounters. In combination with his fear immunity it guarantees a party beeing in full combat capacity against any enemy. His lv 15 ability gives disadvantage to almost half of all creatures in fights against him, and they can't take him out of the game anymore. His lv 20 ability...is open for some improvement :P

What's great about the channel divinity for a devotion paladin is that it gives them a little bit of space to max charisma over str/dex.

[toapat]

Devotion is not only well rounded. It has the most powerful channel divinity ( advantage is not that hard to gain) and his abilities are pretty good. Especially his aura is very effective against a lot of hard encounters. In combination with his fear immunity it guarantees a party beeing in full combat capacity against any enemy. His lv 15 ability gives disadvantage to almost half of all creatures in fights against him, and they can't take him out of the game anymore. His lv 20 ability...is open for some improvement :P

well rounded isnt the correct terminology, but it was chosen to convey that while devotion doesnt have a "Best" it doesnt have a point where it legitimately sucks, unlike vengeance paladin where everything you want is in the spell list exasperbating the "3 lvl class" problem, while Ancients has alot of good abilities but its spells are not building further on the paladin's existing abilities.

[furby076]

On this point:
what sticks in my mind is the last time my wizard got hit by Entangle. She failed 11 Strength saves/checks in a row, leaving her exposed to a horde of goblins and unable to hit them with her main attack spells (due to disadvantage). I was exceptionally lucky to survive that encounter.

If you were making a save against oota spectral vines you could choose dex or str, whichever is better for ur wizard

[Feuerphoenix]

What's great about the channel divinity for a devotion paladin is that it gives them a little bit of space to max charisma over str/dex.

I think strength and charisma are both stats that should be maxed for a paladin. But another great advance of sacred weapon is a magic weapon at will, that is emitting light. When all lights go out in the night, you can thank for that later :P


well rounded isnt the correct terminology, but it was chosen to convey that while devotion doesnt have a "Best" it doesnt have a point where it legitimately sucks, unlike vengeance paladin where everything you want is in the spell list exasperbating the "3 lvl class" problem, while Ancients has alot of good abilities but its spells are not building further on the paladin's existing abilities.

Yeah you are right there. But honestly, I think the devotion should have had better spells. The problem I see, is that many people don't want to choose him, because pally already has a big part the spells he is about to learn. Plus his spells are not on a high level over all anyway.
And what we did not consider overall, is, that in terms of play style, all other oaths have much more freedom for the tenets. If I choose to play the tightest space in a roleplaying perspective, I want to be rewarded with bigger powers. I think this is one of the main problems on addition with a spell list with room for improvement.

[Spellbreaker26]

And what we did not consider overall, is, that in terms of play style, all other oaths have much more freedom for the tenets. If I choose to play the tightest space in a roleplaying perspective, I want to be rewarded with bigger powers. I think this is one of the main problems on addition with a spell list with room for improvement.

I wouldn't quite agree with that. I'm having a hard time balancing my Ancients oath. I'm not required to follow laws, which means I have to try and do the most good, but at the same time I can't really break them "just cause". It's a tricky line to walk.

[Feuerphoenix]

I wouldn't quite agree with that. I'm having a hard time balancing my Ancients oath. I'm not required to follow laws, which means I have to try and do the most good, but at the same time I can't really break them "just cause". It's a tricky line to walk.

Still, the tenets are much more open and leaving room for interpretation, comparing an ancient to a devotion pally. You don't break your oath just by lying, you don' break your oath by not following your commander, you don't breakthroughs your oath by avoiding an intervention to protect your recourses etc.

The "classic" paladin, in a much tighter corset of rules than any other oath.

[Spellbreaker26]

Still, the tenets are much more open and leaving room for interpretation, comparing an ancient to a devotion pally. You don't break your oath just by lying, you don' break your oath by not following your commander, you don't breakthroughs your oath by avoiding an intervention to protect your recourses etc.

The "classic" paladin, in a much tighter corset of rules than any other oath.

Ehh, I'd say Conquest is more restrictive since it basically forbids any niceness at all. But we also should keep simplicity in mind; Devotion might not be flexible but it's also one of the easiest ones to know what to do in any situation.

[Corran]

Ehh, I'd say Conquest is more restrictive since it basically forbids any niceness at all. But we also should keep simplicity in mind; Devotion might not be flexible but it's also one of the easiest ones to know what to do in any situation.
Agreed. Plus, some people even enjoy playing with such strict limits a paladin, myself included when nostalgia becomes a factor.

[toapat]

Yeah you are right there. But honestly, I think the devotion should have had better spells. The problem I see, is that many people don't want to choose him, because pally already has a big part the spells he is about to learn. Plus his spells are not on a high level over all anyway.
And what we did not consider overall, is, that in terms of play style, all other oaths have much more freedom for the tenets. If I choose to play the tightest space in a roleplaying perspective, I want to be rewarded with bigger powers. I think this is one of the main problems on addition with a spell list with room for improvement.

Crown and Conquest are way harder to keep to the oath than Devotion, as Crown is the "Lawful Stupid" paladin while Devotion is "Stupid Good"

ultimately Ancients is the most restrictive oath of the core 3, simply because while you can lie, you can manipulate people, you have to do what is right. Devotion can with very careful roleplay be a spy, Ancients cannot

[TrinculoLives]

I saw the title and was stuck thinking: "Since when is there a Paladin archetype in Out of the Abyss..."

[djreynolds]

Is it better than ensnaring strike which is concentration and a strength saving throw?

It is non-concentration and doesn't have a limit other than a passing save

But the choice between the target choosing strength or dex is pretty lame

Let's assume at 17th level a paladin has a DC of 19 and inexplicably a creature fails their dex or str save... each other round's saving throw would be with disadvantage, and maybe toss in a hex or bane.. I don't know

It would be cool if fey or fiends, who OoA can turn, had more trouble with these vines

At least its better than intimidating presence at 10th level

But in terms of the other paladins, it is far underpowered and since the OoA paladin already get ensnaring strike as a domain spell it even stops be cool or unique

Now if you could create a barrier of vines that fey or fiends had to pass a save to get to past it, that could be cool. Wall Of Vines

[JellyPooga]

Is it better than ensnaring strike which is concentration and a strength saving throw?

It is non-concentration and doesn't have a limit other than a passing save

But the choice between the target choosing strength or dex is pretty lame

Let's assume at 17th level a paladin has a DC of 19 and inexplicably a creature fails their dex or str save... each other round's saving throw would be with disadvantage, and maybe toss in a hex or bane.. I don't know

It would be cool if fey or fiends, who OoA can turn, had more trouble with these vines

At least its better than intimidating presence at 10th level

But in terms of the other paladins, it is far underpowered and since the OoA paladin already get ensnaring strike as a domain spell it even stops be cool or unique

Now if you could create a barrier of vines that fey or fiends had to pass a save to get to past it, that could be cool. Wall Of Vines

Natures Wrath isn't limited by size either, where Ensnaring Strike is (IIRC). Small benefit, perhaps, but worth noting for the sake of completeness.

[Asmotherion]

Thing is, Paladin Oaths are designed with long term Balance in mind. Look at 7th level ability of the Ancients Paladin, Aura of Warding; Universal Resistance to the Damage of All Spells. Granted to Self and Allies. Compared to that, the Devotion's imunity against being charmed is situational at best, wile the Vengence gives a tactical bonus on Opportunity Attacks, but is nothing in compareson to, and I repeat, Universal Spell Resistance.

[SharkForce]

i dunno, both are pretty damned amazing auras when they apply. a whole lot of *really* nasty stuff gets blocked by charm immunity... next time you meet an enemy wizard who likes hypnotic pattern, you won't be thinking charm immunity sucks, i'll tell you that much :P

[Spellbreaker26]

i dunno, both are pretty damned amazing auras when they apply. a whole lot of *really* nasty stuff gets blocked by charm immunity... next time you meet an enemy wizard who likes hypnotic pattern, you won't be thinking charm immunity sucks, i'll tell you that much :P

Yeah, but every attack he makes will be resisted by the Paladin and everyone near him.

The Devotion Aura is still good - it's just nowhere near as good as the Ancient Aura.

[djreynolds]

Natures Wrath isn't limited by size either, where Ensnaring Strike is (IIRC). Small benefit, perhaps, but worth noting for the sake of completeness.

You know if you could hex some first (all you palalocks) and then cast Natures wrath you could snag something very big... possibly.

Because you can concentrate on hex while nature's wrath is running. I think for the OP fey or fiend automatically have disadvantage... and I might be inclined to allow it used as a reaction

[Theodoxus]

Hex only hampers checks, not saves - it'll provide no added benefit...

[Spellbreaker26]

You know if you could hex some first (all you palalocks) and then cast Natures wrath you could snag something very big... possibly.

Because you can concentrate on hex while nature's wrath is running. I think for the OP fey or fiend automatically have disadvantage... and I might be inclined to allow it used as a reaction

Fey and Fiend do not have disadvantage, and hex affects ability checks, not saving throws.

[JellyPooga]

You know if you could hex some first (all you palalocks) and then cast Natures wrath you could snag something very big... possibly.

Because you can concentrate on hex while nature's wrath is running. I think for the OP fey or fiend automatically have disadvantage... and I might be inclined to allow it used as a reaction

If you can find someone to Bestow Curse first, this would work...

[toapat]

Aura of Warding

the largest problem with Aura of Warding is the Holy Avenger has that as a feature

[Sception]

It's not really that much less likely to land than any spell cast by a Wizard or Cleric. Yes a Paladin will tend not to focus on Charisma as much as a spellslinger will their primary stat, but that doesn't mean they won't and between their other Charisma dependent abilities, there's a fairly strong incentive to have it high.

It's considerably less likely to land than an offensive spell cast by a wizard or cleric, since those spells will:

a) be based on a primary rather than secondary stat. not a major difference, especially in the very early and very late games, but likely to be at least one point of DC and possibly as much as two for a good stretch of a character's career, unless the paladin is dipping hexblade (kind of outside the bounds of this discussion, imo).

b) only allow one save, allowing the caster to pick a spell that the enemy is unlikely to save against, and yes, this IS a big deal. Most enemies are going to have either a strong Strength or a strong Dexterity, enemies that are neither strong nor agile are a rarity. Clerics and Wizards just don't cast dex-based offensive spells on light dodgy enemies, and they don't cast str-based offensive spells on big slow bulky types. Effectively, offensive caster spells will usually be targeting one of the enemies worse saves, if not their very worst, while nature's wrath is almost always targeting one of the enemies better saves, if not their very best, for a likely swing in saving throws of 5 or more points.

c) a spell caster using a spell that just restrains is going to be casting over an area, affecting multiple enemies, and forcing multiple saves, making one or more failures dramatically more likely. If they're targeting just one enemy, it's probably with a considerably more deleterious effect, like a proper paralysis. Unless you're comparing it to at-will cantrip use? But even then it's lackluster for the above reasons.

Why would a character with martial proficiencies and extra attack ever want to burn an action on this? It really is a dead ability. Tempting to use, because it's good if it lands, but so unlikely to land that paladins who attempt to use it with any sort of frequency are making themselves less effective by doing so. If you had the option to trade it for a smite as a first level spell, you would almost always do so. I don't think the same can be said for ANY of the other oaths channel divinities, PHB or otherwise.

[JellyPooga]

It's considerably less likely to land than an offensive spell cast by a wizard or cleric, since those spells will:

a) be based on a primary rather than secondary stat. not a major difference, especially in the very early and very late games, but likely to be at least one point of DC and possibly as much as two for a good stretch of a character's career, unless the paladin is dipping hexblade (kind of outside the bounds of this discussion, imo).

Charisma isn't a secondary stat for Paladins. They have so many features dependent on it that ignoring it or leaving it in the mid-range is ignoring some of your most iconic abilities. Yes, a Paladin can function as a glorified Fighter, playing the DPR game and do it well, but I think that doing so is ignoring their role as a front-line "Leader'.


b) only allow one save, allowing the caster to pick a spell that the enemy is unlikely to save against, and yes, this IS a big deal. Most enemies are going to have either a strong Strength or a strong Dexterity, enemies that are neither strong nor agile are a rarity. Clerics and Wizards just don't cast dex-based offensive spells on light dodgy enemies, and they don't cast str-based offensive spells on big slow bulky types. Effectively, offensive caster spells will usually be targeting one of the enemies worse saves, if not their very worst, while nature's wrath is almost always targeting one of the enemies better saves, if not their very best, for a likely swing in saving throws of 5 or more points.

Paladins aren't primarily spellslingers, no and they have very limited ability to "cherry pick" the Saves they target, but that doesn't make Natures Wrath bad, it makes it situational. You might not bust it out in every fight, but you can make use of it in many, giving you a chance of ending it quicker than if you'd "played it safe" and just attacked.

Further, it has been iterated that "most enemies will have either good Dex, good Str or both". This entirely depends on who you're going up against. Of course Natures Wrath isn't going to see much success against Giants, Dragons and other "big bruisers", but against much of the MM, where a critter only has Str/Dex in the 12-18 range and no proficiency (which encompasses most spellcasters, arcane or divine, and many humanoid type foes which are common) you will see a reasonable success rate (around the 50% mark).


c) a spell caster using a spell that just restrains is going to be casting over an area, affecting multiple enemies, and forcing multiple saves, making one or more failures dramatically more likely. If they're targeting just one enemy, it's probably with a considerably more deleterious effect, like a proper paralysis. Unless you're comparing it to at-will cantrip use? But even then it's lackluster for the above reasons.

Yeah, I'll give you that one; it's only a single target and that's largely speaking a drawback. If it goes off, on the other hand, that single target is in for a world of hurt. Also, a spellslinger throwing an AoE into the mix might well be hitting his own parties front-line. With Heavy Armour Proficiency and little incentive to play a ranged game, a Paladin can happily dump Dex; a simple Grease spell from a friendly Wizard will easily ruin his day as well as prevent a friendly from capitalising on the advantage of the intended target being affected. Being single target is not so much a drawback under such circumstances as a much as it can be a feature.


Why would a character with martial proficiencies and extra attack ever want to burn an action on this?

Because he wants to set the rest of the party up for an easy round? Because his targets AC is artificially high (e.g. from Shield) or is imposing Disadvantage on attack rolls (e.g. from concealment) and he wants a better chance to hit? Because he doesn't want the target charging past him to get to his allied squishies? Because he rolled higher initiative than the parties go-to spellslinger, or said spellslinger is out-of-action (for whatever reason) and he doesn't want the target getting away?

It's a tool in the belt and it's one that only "not using it" will render it useless. Extra Attack and Divine Smite are great, but HP damage doesn't always get the job done. Especially at higher levels when HP totals far outweigh DPR and combats are frequently more than "you see a bunch of orcs; they atttack!".

[SharkForce]

Yeah, but every attack he makes will be resisted by the Paladin and everyone near him.

The Devotion Aura is still good - it's just nowhere near as good as the Ancient Aura.

again, that depends a great deal on what the wizard is casting. a wizard may not be casting anything damaging in the first place. or, their damage might be from summoned minions, which you don't have resistance to from OotA paladin aura. in the right situation, devotion aura is absolutely a lifesaver, just like the ancients aura. if you're up against an enchanter, you want a devotion paladin. if you're up against an evoker, you might prefer an ancients paladin. which one is better depends on what you're fighting.

[Sception]

Charisma isn't a secondary stat for Paladins. They have so many features dependent on it that ignoring it or leaving it in the mid-range is ignoring some of your most iconic abilities. Yes, a Paladin can function as a glorified Fighter, playing the DPR game and do it well, but I think that doing so is ignoring their role as a front-line "Leader'.

If it's useful for class features & riders, but isn't you're round-by-round attacking stat, it's secondary. That's what secondary means? That's what I thought it meant anyway, that's what I meant when I said it. Primary: you use it for round-by-round attack and defense (ie strength or dex, or the primary casting stat of primary casters, which the paladin isn't), needs to be high all the time or you get hurt a lot and don't accomplish much. Secondary: not primary, but powers important class features and rider effects. You want a high number in these, but it's not as critical as primary. Tertiary: Constitution. Other: Dump stats. Paladin's secondary is very important, lots of great abilities ride on it, but you're generally not going to pump it above or ahead of your primary, whether that's Strength or Dex, not unless you're dealing with some sort of multiclass situation. So for much of your career it's going to be a point or two behind full casters.

This isn't a big deal, it's just a minor thing, and offensive paladin spells can still have applicability (apart from the smiting spells, which are almost entirely just flat out worse than spending the same slot on a regular smite, due to the concentration issue), since you don't use them all the time, and can save them for when the enemy has a bad save against them.

That's just much much harder to do with nature's wrath, because, again, most everything is either strong or agile, and those that aren't are typically either weedy & numerous (ie, you don't want to target them with single target spells, and regular attacks will chew through their HP fast enough anyway) or casty, and an awful lot of casty things have magical defenses or movement that will largely nullify nature's wrath anyway, like dimension door or misty step. Casty guys that don't have such things are typically better beaten down with HP damage anyway, and if you really wanted to sacrifice your action to give your party members advantage, then you could shove them over like a playground bully. And, yeah, nature's wrath doesn't have a hard size limit, but it does have a soft one since big things will shrug off the strength save.

Frankly, as a paladin, with your martial proficiencies and smites, you are the guy that your party should be working to set up advantage for. Giving up your action to do things the other way around is backwards.


Again, I don't think this is a critical problem, or anything close to the biggest problem in the core rules, let alone the game as a whole. The rest of the ancients paladin is good enough that it isn't a dead subclass or anything, just a somewhat lackluster one before 7th level, though the spells help. Again, misty step is very nice for a tanky melee dude. And moonbeam and bless are plenty useful for turns when you can't close to melee for whatever reason.

But neither do I think it would be breaking anything to make it a bonus action (so it could be thrown out as a 'hey, what if?' kind of ability), or to limit it to just strength saves, opening it's reasonable use up to a less vanishingly-slim range of potential targets.

[JellyPooga]

If it's useful for class features & riders, but isn't you're round-by-round attacking stat, it's secondary. That's what secondary means? That's what I thought it meant anyway, that's what I meant when I said it.

Put that down to a difference of opinion then; for me, D&D isn't a combat sport so what stat you use for attacking has something but not everything to do with what your Primaries are (and yes, I consider most Classes to have more than one Primary stat).


But neither do I think it would be breaking anything to make it a bonus action (so it could be thrown out as a 'hey, what if?' kind of ability), or to limit it to just strength saves, opening it's reasonable use up to a less vanishingly-slim range of potential targets.

I wouldn't complain about either as houserules if a table I was playing at wanted to implement them. As you say, it wouldn't break anything by any means. I do think it would edge it into the realms of an ability that a GM might start considering revoking those houserules because of overuse, but eh *shrug* perhaps not.

I still don't think there's as much of the MM that has good Str or Dex as you might think. Even a Str or Dex of 18, without Save proficiency, against a DC of 13 (the DC of a 3rd level Paladin with Cha:16) only succeeds on a 9+. Even against DC:12 (8+ on the die) that's not a Save I'd be comfortable making. Have a flip through your MM and see how many foes have a +6 or higher on either Str or Dex Saves; they're not exactly ten-a-penny.

[Spellbreaker26]

Frankly, as a paladin, with your martial proficiencies and smites, you are the guy that your party should be working to set up advantage for. Giving up your action to do things the other way around is backwards.



Not always true.

But to be honest, it's fairly limited in use, and as others have pointed out, was probably designed that way. OotA have plenty of other abilities that are great.

[djreynolds]

Fey and Fiend do not have disadvantage, and hex affects ability checks, not saving throws.

I mean it would be cool if fey or fiend had disadvantage versus Nature's Wrath, that would be a cooler option.

[Zalabim]

You know, this isn't practical or anything, but the vines last until the target passes their saving throw. So a creature that is Unconscious, Stunned, Petrified, or Paralyzed can be vined for as long as the condition lasts. So while it'd be useful on something just magically sleeping, you can throw Nature's Wrath on a permanently petrified creature if you just want to make a point.

[JellyPooga]

You know, this isn't practical or anything, but the vines last until the target passes their saving throw. So a creature that is Unconscious, Stunned, Petrified, or Paralyzed can be vined for as long as the condition lasts. So while it'd be useful on something just magically sleeping, you can throw Nature's Wrath on a permanently petrified creature if you just want to make a point.

There is a value to this, I suppose, if the former condition is short duration (e.g. Stunning Strike or Sleep). Auto-failing the first save pretty much forces the creature to rely on Str due to the disadvantage on Dex Saves, mitigating the "target gets to choose" problem, to an extent.

Not the best one-two set-up in the game, but it's something.

[Citan]

Yeah, but every attack he makes will be resisted by the Paladin and everyone near him.

The Devotion Aura is still good - it's just nowhere near as good as the Ancient Aura.
Well, it really depends: one key players of your party (or your whole party) being charmed or frightened may end much more harmful than a "plain" AOE.
It does depend much more of what your DM throws at you though, that's for sure.


No, it's even more useless. It forces someone to stay within 30 ft, i.e. where your allies will be. At least with the Nature's Wrath they are actually inconvenienced if they fail a save. The only way it could be useful is if you're trying to prevent a bunch of people fleeing at once; and it's extremely easy for the Oath of the Crown to break it accidentally anyway by moving backwards.
First, you say "that's here your allies will be" but that is not necessarily the case: on a big enough map, you may move strategically to force your enemies to be away from your other party members. Then your enemies have to cope with ranged attacks if they have such. Second, you affect a whole bunch of people in the area, so this is great for mass control.
I see several situations where this could help:
- keeping a situation from outright breaking all-out (subject to DM approval though)
- preventing the big bruiser(s) to go harm your squishy friends.
- sacrifice yourself by staying back to guard the runaway of your party (maybe with your party casting some buff before to help you save yourself once your pals have fled far enough: a Sanctuary or Haste cast on you could be great).
More generally, it's a VERY good incentive for most monsters to go and attack you, making you a great bait for AOE attacks, especially if you are wielding Sword and Board with Shield Master feat.

Really, it's a very different feature from Nature's Wrath, and a bit tricky to use well, but it can be very useful.


If it's useful for class features & riders, but isn't you're round-by-round attacking stat, it's secondary. That's what secondary means? That's what I thought it meant anyway, that's what I meant when I said it. Primary: you use it for round-by-round attack and defense (ie strength or dex, or the primary casting stat of primary casters, which the paladin isn't), needs to be high all the time or you get hurt a lot and don't accomplish much. Secondary: not primary, but powers important class features and rider effects. You want a high number in these, but it's not as critical as primary. Tertiary: Constitution.
Hi!
Then, by your own logic, Charisma IS a main stat.
After all, it does affect your defense, by giving you much better saves overall.
Beyond that, you seem very keen on putting overly strict separation between stats.
Would you say that attack stat is unimportant for a Blade Warlock or a Valor Bard? Probably not. But what happened? They are fullcasters!!! Even Eldricht Knights and Arcane Tricksters have solid cases to max their casting stat, although they are really martials at core, and very little depending on it.

Paladin has many more things depending on Charisma than you are willing to admit, contrarily to a Ranger and his WIS for example: Cleansing Touch, number of prepared spells, some Channel Divinity, and some great spells of Paladin are save or suck ones.
This is in fact the perfect example of a class which functions really good by having both stats maxed, even if technically you can do without it.

You could even reverse the statement: Paladin needs Charisma maxed before even his attack stat. Simply because there are many many ways to improve your chance to hit (Bless, other class features such as Wolf Totem, Shoving creature, spells affecting creatures such as Entangle/Faerie Fire/ etc). And properly built Paladins don't rely that much on their attack stat for damage too (GWM, Divine Smite will make you forget about a lacking 1-2 damage per attack).
While there is very little way to augment your DC, and each +1 on your Charisma modifier greatly improves your overall resilience.

[Spellbreaker26]

Well, it really depends: one key players of your party (or your whole party) being charmed or frightened may end much more harmful than a "plain" AOE.
It does depend much more of what your DM throws at you though, that's for sure.


First, you say "that's here your allies will be" but that is not necessarily the case: on a big enough map, you may move strategically to force your enemies to be away from your other party members. Then your enemies have to cope with ranged attacks if they have such. Second, you affect a whole bunch of people in the area, so this is great for mass control.
I see several situations where this could help:
- keeping a situation from outright breaking all-out (subject to DM approval though)
- preventing the big bruiser(s) to go harm your squishy friends.
- sacrifice yourself by staying back to guard the runaway of your party (maybe with your party casting some buff before to help you save yourself once your pals have fled far enough: a Sanctuary or Haste cast on you could be great).
More generally, it's a VERY good incentive for most monsters to go and attack you, making you a great bait for AOE attacks, especially if you are wielding Sword and Board with Shield Master feat.

Really, it's a very different feature from Nature's Wrath, and a bit tricky to use well, but it can be very useful.



The answer to both of these is "paladin standard aura".

1. The reason devotion aura isn't that great is that paladins already give a bonus to saves as part of their standard aura. Yes, it's still great that you flat out can't be charmed, but paladins already buff their party against charms anyway.

2. Paladins again are at their best when standing near their allies to give them their save bonuses. The allies don't have to be within 30 feet but they usually should be. The problem with the crown Channel Divinity is that it doesn't synergise with the rest of the class abilities. Since monsters don't have to be right next to you they can even basically ignore you and keep harassing your allies with ranged attacks - or just surround you. Paladin or not getting surrounded will really take its toll.

I suppose it's decent for capturing fleeing enemies or in a pinch, but it has fairly limited array of uses.

[Sception]

First, you say "that's here your allies will be" but that is not necessarily the case: on a big enough map, you may move strategically to force your enemies to be away from your other party members. Then your enemies have to cope with ranged attacks if they have such. Second, you affect a whole bunch of people in the area, so this is great for mass control.
All that said, it's still very situational, and will force you to choose between getting the most out of your CD and getting the most out of your auras. It's not bad, I'd say it's better than nature's wrath in that I'd ever use it, but still....


Beyond that, you seem very keen on putting overly strict separation between stats.
Would you say that attack stat is unimportant for a Blade Warlock or a Valor Bard? Probably not. But what happened? They are fullcasters!!!
If they're using their Strength or Dexterity to do most of their round by round attacking, as a Valor Bard might and a Blade Warlock almost certainly does, then those are their primary attack stats, not their casting stat.

If they actually go back and forth a lot, to the point that both can equally be called their primary stat, then that is a problem, that is a weakness, a painful negative of playing that class/subclass/build. Having two primary stats is bad. It doesn't necessarily kill a class or build, but it is definitely a mark against, something other pros need to balance out.

Even in the case of a paladin, who generally only has one primary attacking stat, while the secondary is useful enough to tempt you to raise it first, doing so comes at a cost of -1 on the majority of rolls your character will make until that difference is made up. Far worse for dex builds, that also rely on the stat for AC, the defense that the majority of all attacks made against the character will target.

I'm not saying paladin secondary abilities aren't so strong that raising secondary first is a completely illegitimate choice, but doing so has very painful consequences. A OoA paladin whose nature's wrath save is at every level as high as that of a wizard or cleric of the same level is, again, paying for that with a -1 penalty on the most common combat rolls they make for 8 levels of their 20 level career, and a -2 penalty for 4 levels on top of that!

That is an even worse penalty then NW DCs being slightly worse than the spell DCs of a cleric or wizard, again unless we're talking about some sort of multiclass shenanigans. If the cost of using Nature's Wrath effectively, which I remind you isn't that terribly powerful to begin with, and can only be used at all once per rest, AND is unlikely to land on any meaningful target anyway due to the dual saves (and the two saves that are most likely to include at least one favored save among enemy targets, is a penalty to every attack role you make over the majority of your career, then it is even worse than I had already been describing it.


and... did you mention GWM? GWM makes a penalty to hit even more painful! A GWM paladin should never be favoring Cha over their melee to-hit score! TO HIT is the issue here, not a point or two of damage! The more damage you do with each swing, the more critical every point of to-hit bonus you have becomes, and thanks to regular and improved divine smites and various damage buff spells, paladins are on the higher end of damage already.

[Citan]

and... did you mention GWM? GWM makes a penalty to hit even more painful! A GWM paladin should never be favoring Cha over their melee to-hit score! TO HIT is the issue here, not a point or two of damage! The more damage you do with each swing, the more critical every point of to-hit bonus you have becomes, and thanks to regular and improved divine smites and various damage buff spells, paladins are on the higher end of damage already.
Your indignation is totally irrelevant for Devotion (+CHA) and Vengeance (advantage) Oaths. And generally irrelevant in any party which knows how to teamwork and has resources to do so (Bless, Faerie Fire, Shove, Wolf Barbarian, Entangle, Hold X, Earth Tremor, Blindness, Slow, etc).:smallbiggrin:
(Also, note that I never said you had to be stupid and use GWM extra risk/damage on every attack. Any GWM/Sharpshooter player still has to be smart about it, but that's true of most class features anyways :smalltongue:).