High CR creatures as low ECL playable races. Nerf this?

[Xaroth]

So the idea struck me after going back over a player of mine wanting to play a Concordant Killer. I enjoyed the thought, and even now nerfing it to the point of being playable while retaining sorta what the race was about was...fun.

I thought this might be a fun little thing to start. Who knows? Might flop, might not. Worth a shot anyway.

Requirements:

Must be usable in 3.5e.
The creature's size cannot decrease below Medium. If the creature's size is already Small or smaller, you cannot decrease it further.
The maximum ECL a creature can end up at is 5, as a playable race. The lower you can make it however, the better. (Not sure about this one. Thoughts?)
Within the ECL requirements, try to retain as much of the creature's original power as you can.

I'm not sure what to do as far as LA goes. I was initially going to call this low LA playable races with a max LA of +5 but I realised that +5 isn't exactly low LA. Or is it? I'm not sure. I'll go with low ECL until proven otherwise.

All of these will be up for debate and I'm always happy to hear feedback on my nerfs and how things could be changed, as I have a bad habit of thinking that special abilities are more powerful than they actually are.

Let's start with a crowd favorite, the Balor.

...honestly have no idea where to start with this guy apart from making him Medium and removing all of his spell-like abilities.

[Celestia]

Drop all RHD. Drop the sword and whip. Drop the Death Throes, Summon Demon, True Seeing, and spell-like abilities.

Then you've got a large, flaming demon with good defenses and ability mods, but nothing truly broken. I'd say +3 or +4 LA.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, I already created a lower CR version of Balor: The Balrog

Balrog
Large (C, E, Extraplanar)
HD: 8d12 (52+48=100 average)
Init: +5
Speed: 30 ft, Fly 60 (poor)
Armor Class: 24 (-1 Size, 5 Dex, 10 NA), FF: 19, Touch: 14
BAB/Grapple: +8/+16
Attack: +1 Flaming Longsword hit +13 (2d6+6+1d6 fire/19-20), +1 Flaming Whip hit +13 (1d4+6+1d6 fire plus entangle), or Slam Hit +13(1d10+5)
Full Attack: +1 Flaming Longsword hit +11/+6 (2d6+6+1d6 fire/19-20) and +1 Flaming Whip hit +6 (1d4+3+1d6 fire plus entangle), or 2 Slam Hit +13 (1d10+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft reach/10 ft (20 ft with whip)
Special Attacks: Armory, Entangle, Spell-like abilities, Fire and Steel
Special qualities: Damage reduction 10/cold iron and magic, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, smite, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid and cold 10, Fire 20, spell resistance 18, telepathy 60 ft., see invisibility 60 ft
Saves: +11/+10/+8
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 20
Skills: Disguise +13, Concentration +14, Diplomacy +13, Hide +13, Intimidate +13, Listen +11, Move Silently +10, Search +12, Sense Motive +11, Spell Craft +12, Spot +11, Survival +11
Feats: (B) TWF, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave
CR 8. LA +2


Qualities:
A balrog’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Armory: As a swift action, a Balrog can create a whip and one other weapon out of shadow and fire. These weapons have a +1 enhancement bonus. They last for 1 hour. It can't use this power again till 1 hour passes.
Fire and Steel: Any weapon a Balrog holds gains the flaming enhancement if it lacks it. These weapon gain sinister appearance.
Entangle (Ex) A Balrog's whip entangles foes much like an attack with a net. The whip has 20 hit points. The whip needs no folding. If it hits, the target and the balrog immediately make opposed Strength checks; if the balrog wins, it drags the target against its flaming body (see below). The target remains anchored against the Balrog's body until it escapes the whip
Flaming Body (Su): The body of a balrog is wreathed in flame. Anyone starting their turn within 10 ft of a balrog receives 3d6 fire damage each round.
See invisibility: Constantly as the spell within 60 ft.
Smite (Su):Three times per day a balrog can create a nimbus of unholy light. When the demon triggers the ability, rainbow-colored beams play around its body. One round later they burst in a 60-foot radius. Any creature within this area must succeed on a DC 19 Will save or be dazed for 1d10 rounds as visions of its worst fears hound it. The creature receives its full Dexterity and shield bonuses to AC if attacked but can take no actions. Other demons are immune to this effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Spell-like abilities: At will— Kelgore's Grave Mist (but fire), darkness (DC 17), dispel magic; 1/Hour -- teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), ; 1/day—Call lightning (DC 18), fire storm (DC 22), Caster level 8th. The save DCs are Charisma-based



So to lower this from ECL 10 to lower 5:
Lower size (lower NA by 2, lower strength by 8, lower Con by 4, Raise Dex by 2)
Lower Mental stats: -6Int , -6Wis, -6 Cha
Remove 5 Racial HD
Lower Flaming Body to 2d6 fire.
Lower Smite to 1/day, plus 1/day for every 5 HD.
Lower caster for Spell-likes equal to HD.
Reduce Spell-likes to At will Kelgore's gravemust (fire), 1/day Call Lightning, 1/day Dispel. Gain at will Dispel when have 8 HD. Regain 1/hr Teleport when have 8 HD. 1/day Fire storm when have 10 HD.

[Remuko]

Well, I already created a lower CR version of Balor: The Balrog

Balrog
Large (C, E, Extraplanar)
HD: 8d12 (52+48=100 average)
Init: +5
Speed: 30 ft, Fly 60 (poor)
Armor Class: 24 (-1 Size, 5 Dex, 10 NA), FF: 19, Touch: 14
BAB/Grapple: +8/+16
Attack: +1 Flaming Longsword hit +13 (2d6+6+1d6 fire/19-20), +1 Flaming Whip hit +13 (1d4+6+1d6 fire plus entangle), or Slam Hit +13(1d10+5)
Full Attack: +1 Flaming Longsword hit +11/+6 (2d6+6+1d6 fire/19-20) and +1 Flaming Whip hit +6 (1d4+3+1d6 fire plus entangle), or 2 Slam Hit +13 (1d10+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft reach/10 ft (20 ft with whip)
Special Attacks: Armory, Entangle, Spell-like abilities, Fire and Steel
Special qualities: Damage reduction 10/cold iron and magic, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, smite, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid and cold 10, Fire 20, spell resistance 18, telepathy 60 ft., see invisibility 60 ft
Saves: +11/+10/+8
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 20
Skills: Disguise +13, Concentration +14, Diplomacy +13, Hide +13, Intimidate +13, Listen +11, Move Silently +10, Search +12, Sense Motive +11, Spell Craft +12, Spot +11, Survival +11
Feats: (B) TWF, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave
CR 8. LA +2


Qualities:
A balrog’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Armory: As a swift action, a Balrog can create a whip and one other weapon out of shadow and fire. These weapons have a +1 enhancement bonus. They last for 1 hour. It can't use this power again till 1 hour passes.
Fire and Steel: Any weapon a Balrog holds gains the flaming enhancement if it lacks it. These weapon gain sinister appearance.
Entangle (Ex) A Balrog's whip entangles foes much like an attack with a net. The whip has 20 hit points. The whip needs no folding. If it hits, the target and the balrog immediately make opposed Strength checks; if the balrog wins, it drags the target against its flaming body (see below). The target remains anchored against the Balrog's body until it escapes the whip
Flaming Body (Su): The body of a balrog is wreathed in flame. Anyone starting their turn within 10 ft of a balrog receives 3d6 fire damage each round.
See invisibility: Constantly as the spell within 60 ft.
Smite (Su):Three times per day a balrog can create a nimbus of unholy light. When the demon triggers the ability, rainbow-colored beams play around its body. One round later they burst in a 60-foot radius. Any creature within this area must succeed on a DC 19 Will save or be dazed for 1d10 rounds as visions of its worst fears hound it. The creature receives its full Dexterity and shield bonuses to AC if attacked but can take no actions. Other demons are immune to this effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Spell-like abilities: At will— Kelgore's Grave Mist (but fire), darkness (DC 17), dispel magic; 1/Hour -- teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), ; 1/day—Call lightning (DC 18), fire storm (DC 22), Caster level 8th. The save DCs are Charisma-based



So to lower this from ECL 10 to lower 5:
Lower size (lower NA by 2, lower strength by 8, lower Con by 4, Raise Dex by 2)
Lower Mental stats: -6Int , -6Wis, -6 Cha
Remove 5 Racial HD
Lower Flaming Body to 2d6 fire.
Lower Smite to 1/day, plus 1/day for every 5 HD.
Lower caster for Spell-likes equal to HD.
Reduce Spell-likes to At will Kelgore's grave mist (fire), 1/day Call Lightning, 1/day Dispel. Gain at will Dispel when have 8 HD. Regain 1/hr Teleport when have 8 HD. 1/day Fire storm when have 10 HD.

Why does this outsider have a D12 hit die? Outsiders use D8.

[Starbuck_II]

Why does this outsider have a D12 hit die? Outsiders use D8.

I made a mistake I guess when making it. :smalltongue:

[Remuko]

I made a mistake I guess when making it. :smalltongue:

Thats fair xD I wasnt sure if it was an intentional change or not.

[Xaroth]

Drop all RHD. Drop the sword and whip. Drop the Death Throes, Summon Demon, True Seeing, and spell-like abilities.

Then you've got a large, flaming demon with good defenses and ability mods, but nothing truly broken. I'd say +3 or +4 LA.

To be fair I don't think non-natural weapons should really count towards a race's LA.

And I think that STR +20, DEX +16, CON +20, INT +14, WIS +14, CHA +16 is a bit too powerful.


Well, I already created a lower CR version of Balor: The Balrog

Balrog
Large (C, E, Extraplanar)
HD: 8d8
Init: +5
Speed: 30 ft, Fly 60 (poor)
Armor Class: 24 (-1 Size, 5 Dex, 10 NA), FF: 19, Touch: 14
BAB/Grapple: +8/+16
Attack: +1 Flaming Longsword hit +13 (2d6+6+1d6 fire/19-20), +1 Flaming Whip hit +13 (1d4+6+1d6 fire plus entangle), or Slam Hit +13(1d10+5)
Full Attack: +1 Flaming Longsword hit +11/+6 (2d6+6+1d6 fire/19-20) and +1 Flaming Whip hit +6 (1d4+3+1d6 fire plus entangle), or 2 Slam Hit +13 (1d10+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft reach/10 ft (20 ft with whip)
Special Attacks: Armory, Entangle, Spell-like abilities, Fire and Steel
Special qualities: Damage reduction 10/cold iron and magic, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, smite, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid and cold 10, Fire 20, spell resistance 18, telepathy 60 ft., see invisibility 60 ft
Saves: +11/+10/+8
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 20
Skills: Disguise +13, Concentration +14, Diplomacy +13, Hide +13, Intimidate +13, Listen +11, Move Silently +10, Search +12, Sense Motive +11, Spell Craft +12, Spot +11, Survival +11
Feats: (B) TWF, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave
CR 8. LA +2


Qualities:
A balrog’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Armory: As a swift action, a Balrog can create a whip and one other weapon out of shadow and fire. These weapons have a +1 enhancement bonus. They last for 1 hour. It can't use this power again till 1 hour passes.
Fire and Steel: Any weapon a Balrog holds gains the flaming enhancement if it lacks it. These weapon gain sinister appearance.
Entangle (Ex) A Balrog's whip entangles foes much like an attack with a net. The whip has 20 hit points. The whip needs no folding. If it hits, the target and the balrog immediately make opposed Strength checks; if the balrog wins, it drags the target against its flaming body (see below). The target remains anchored against the Balrog's body until it escapes the whip
Flaming Body (Su): The body of a balrog is wreathed in flame. Anyone starting their turn within 10 ft of a balrog receives 3d6 fire damage each round.
See invisibility: Constantly as the spell within 60 ft.
Smite (Su):Three times per day a balrog can create a nimbus of unholy light. When the demon triggers the ability, rainbow-colored beams play around its body. One round later they burst in a 60-foot radius. Any creature within this area must succeed on a DC 19 Will save or be dazed for 1d10 rounds as visions of its worst fears hound it. The creature receives its full Dexterity and shield bonuses to AC if attacked but can take no actions. Other demons are immune to this effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Spell-like abilities: At will— Kelgore's Grave Mist (but fire), darkness (DC 17), dispel magic; 1/Hour -- teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), ; 1/day—Call lightning (DC 18), fire storm (DC 22), Caster level 8th. The save DCs are Charisma-based



So to lower this from ECL 10 to lower 5:
Lower size (lower NA by 2, lower strength by 8, lower Con by 4, Raise Dex by 2)
Lower Mental stats: -6Int , -6Wis, -6 Cha
Remove 5 Racial HD
Lower Flaming Body to 2d6 fire.
Lower Smite to 1/day, plus 1/day for every 5 HD.
Lower caster for Spell-likes equal to HD.
Reduce Spell-likes to At will Kelgore's gravemust (fire), 1/day Call Lightning, 1/day Dispel. Gain at will Dispel when have 8 HD. Regain 1/hr Teleport when have 8 HD. 1/day Fire storm when have 10 HD.

This is pretty good, but the deficit to mental stats is a bit too much considering it's meant to be a Balor, isn't it? Unless you just mean change it from INT from +8 to +2, WIS from +6 to +0, and CHA from +10 to +4, which seems reasonable to me. I think that if that's what you mean, then the Balor should be in the bag.

Let's go with something I don't really hear a whole lot about: the Ghaele.

The obvious first step is removing or reducing the damage reduction and dropping the RHD. Probably lowering the spell resistance and removing the immunities, turning them into resistances instead. I'm gonna pretend as though the Ghaele's weapon doesn't exist, because I don't think a weapon someone wields should be considered for their races.

[Remuko]

To be fair I don't think non-natural weapons should really count towards a race's LA.

And I think that STR +20, DEX +16, CON +20, INT +14, WIS +14, CHA +16 is a bit too powerful.



This is pretty good, but the deficit to mental stats is a bit too much considering it's meant to be a Balor, isn't it? Unless you just mean change it from INT from +8 to +2, WIS from +6 to +0, and CHA from +10 to +4, which seems reasonable to me. I think that if that's what you mean, then the Balor should be in the bag.

Let's go with something I don't really hear a whole lot about: the Ghaele.

The obvious first step is removing or reducing the damage reduction and dropping the RHD. Probably lowering the spell resistance and removing the immunities, turning them into resistances instead. I'm gonna pretend as though the Ghaele's weapon doesn't exist, because I don't think a weapon someone wields should be considered for their races.

I think the weapon should be when its a weapon the race is supposed to come with for free. That's a large racial benefit.