PLEASE remember to fill out the Mystic survey!

[jaappleton]

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/wizard-revisited

Just a reminder asking everyone to fill out the survey.

While I like the Mystic overall, I think there's plenty to be improved. For example:

Celerity abilities cost too much overall for what they do, like 5 points to make one bonus action attack. That's the same cost as the spell Haste, which is far superior.

Beastial Claws needs to be rewritten, as its just very poorly written (Str? Dex? Either? Are you proficient with them?)

Its too easy to 'stack' abilities together. Massive bonuses to AC, or making the Soul Knife a +7 weapon.

So please, write down your thoughts and fill out the survey. Psionics, whether you like them or not, are liked and enjoyed by many. So please rate the class, its important! If not to yourself, then please rate the Mystic for the others! It's a new class with a new system. Feedback on stuff like this is crucial for 5E!

Saying "Psionics sux and I don't want it at my table" isn't providing feedback.

[DanyBallon]

I'm not too kind about filling this Survey, there's too much material to be playtested and a single week is not enough for that.

I would prefer to fill out every part as N/A and in the text box write down that there is not enough time for testing.

[DracoKnight]

I'd like to point out that the Soul Knife kind of needs that +7. :smalltongue: Otherwise their DPR falls behind the other Mystics, heck, behind the other classes.

EDIT: for instance, a Paladin (11th level) doesn't need to spend any resources to achieve a similar damage output: 2d6 (7) + 1d8 (4.5) + 5 = 16.5 *2 = 33.

By spending 12 Psi Points, the Soul Knife (14th level) can deal 4.5*3 = 13.5 + 7 + 4.5 + 7 + 5 = 37.

12 Psi Points = a 5th level spell and a 3rd level spell. And they're still doing less DPR than a Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, or Warlock. They're fine getting a +7.

[jaappleton]

I'd like to point out that the Soul Knife kind of needs that +7. :smalltongue: Otherwise their DPR falls behind the other Mystics, heck, behind the other classes.

EDIT: for instance, a Paladin (11th level) doesn't need to spend any resources to achieve a similar damage output: 2d6 (7) + 1d8 (4.5) + 5 = 16.5 *2 = 33.

By spending 12 Psi Points, the Soul Knife (14th level) can deal 4.5*3 = 13.5 + 7 + 4.5 + 7 + 5 = 37.

12 Psi Points = a 5th level spell and a 3rd level spell. And they're still doing less DPR than a Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, or Warlock. They're fine getting a +7.

I mentioned that I think the Mystic should be split into two classes, with the Martial oriented typed getting a second attack. OR by creating a Discipline for Soul Knife that grants them two weapon fighting style, granting the modifier to the off hand attack. Either one works, I think. 2 PP for two weapon fighting style for an hour, no Concentration. Call it 3 PP. Whatever. But I think that fixes a LOT of the SKs issue.

But this is why the Feedback survey is so important, right?

[jaappleton]

I'm not too kind about filling this Survey, there's too much material to be playtested and a single week is not enough for that.

I would prefer to fill out every part as N/A and in the text box write down that there is not enough time for testing.

IIRC the survey remains up for 3 weeks.

[joaber]

the +7 soul knife cost 12 psi point, conc, one bonus action (one less attack with second blade), don't get hp back with Mystical Recovery, and work for only 10 min. He don't have extra attack, too, so I don't see any problem in that.

The bonus to AC is the same, you need to pick disciplines, focus and features "just for that".

[jaappleton]

I'm not asking anyone to AGREE with my Mystic thoughts.

Just that you give them your own. :smallbiggrin:

[Deleted]

But this is why the Feedback survey is so important, right?

Not really.

A majority of the survey doesn't tell them much. The issue here is that my unsatisfied feelings for X may be because something is broken while your satisfied feelimgs for X may because it is broken.

So they are getting two answers for the same issue from two people who agree on how effective the ability is .

Someone else may not understand why X is broken and be satisfied with it. Another person may not understand why X is broken and is dissatisfied with it.

So your data is all jumbled up and you can't get to the issue in order to fix it.

Now what about the write in sections? Well sometimes those dont actually get looked at. They scan for buzz words, might pick a few out at random, or they get completely ignored. This goes for any survey you fill out.

Just like I've told people during the playtest. These surveys are mostly lip service to the customers and most of the decisions won't take them into account. I wouldn't doubt for a second if the first Mystic was made specifically to set up this Mystic as the better option. You put out something meh and then you put out something better to show someone "progress". You condition them to like the second thing better because it's "new and improved". Marketing is messed up.

The survey is very very superficial and for something so in depth... It just doesn't work for what people think it does.

The point of the survey feedback is primarily for PR, the data that comes from it isn't all that helpful when making decisions.

[Sexyshoeless]

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that Wizards doesn't read the feedback? Just curious if you have some experience with working with this type of data before or some insight I am not aware of.

[joaber]

I'm not asking anyone to AGREE with my Mystic thoughts.

Just that you give them your own. :smallbiggrin:

I think is healty to discuss improvements in a survey topic, and looks like you would agree since you bring yours to the topic.

I see many guys saying "mystic is completly broken and OP", but they didn't tried to make one single build to check the numbers in a standard day. I don't think that opinion add much in a survey.

I know isn't your case.

[jaappleton]

I think is healty to discuss improvements in a survey topic, and looks like you would agree since you bring yours to the topic.

I see many guys saying "mystic is completly broken and OP", but they didn't tried to make one single build to check the numbers in a standard day. I don't think that opinion add much in a survey.

I know isn't your case.

I talked briefly to Mearls about the survey process.

Thinks like "Psionics sux I don't like it" are seen as 'outliers' and are tossed out.

If something receives satisfaction at around 70%, they consider how to refine it to get it closer to 85% or 90%.

Whenever something is released, even in UA, they hope to get 80% satisfaction when the survey is filled out.

There have been some things released which aren't supposed to be a functional build, but instead are a collection of different concepts that can be used for other things. An example would be Lore Wizard.

[Dracul3S]

I did. I hope there will be a final version some day. To me the 3rd variant looks more promising than the earlier versions.

[joaber]

I talked briefly to Mearls about the survey process.

Thinks like "Psionics sux I don't like it" are seen as 'outliers' and are tossed out.

If something receives satisfaction at around 70%, they consider how to refine it to get it closer to 85% or 90%.

Whenever something is released, even in UA, they hope to get 80% satisfaction when the survey is filled out.

There have been some things released which aren't supposed to be a functional build, but instead are a collection of different concepts that can be used for other things. An example would be Lore Wizard.

Yeah, I see those posts. Only show how good is discuss about important points before the survey. Sometimes we can't see all factors alone.

[BigONotation]

Saying "Psionics sux and I don't want it at my table" isn't providing feedback.

While I wasn't so childish that was the gist of how I feel about it after reading the entire book.

[Steampunkette]

I went through the survey, page by page, item by item, outlining issues of power level (High and Low), how well a given item fit the system/settings, how some powers would cause needless table slowdown, how some abilities would result in a ton of wasted points for no overall benefit while also reducing player effectiveness...

I filled every 200 word block with 200 words. Maybe 190 in one of them, but still.

I love the basic system itself. I really like the idea behind the discipline and how the different powers pump. I like how they cap out at "Level 5"-ish. I deeply enjoy how the class breaks so many standard assumptions (Concentration limits, expected action economy, bounded accuracy) but how it does so in a limited fashion, by points and/or time.

I -love- a lot of the disciplines they've put out, too.

Overall, the system gets high marks with the caveat that the gambling mechanics are too punishing, some of the individual powers are too strong, some of the Order abilities are wonky or broken while others make no sense (Seriously, what is the "Theme" behind the Order of the Awakened? Information Gathering? So why Animal Handling, Forced Save Failure, and random-ass 'Ghost Form'?!), and things of that nature.

I also commented, a couple times, that I hope they follow the "Mage" path and split this character into 2-3 psionic classes with a martial option.

[jaappleton]

I went through the survey, page by page, item by item, outlining issues of power level (High and Low), how well a given item fit the system/settings, how some powers would cause needless table slowdown, how some abilities would result in a ton of wasted points for no overall benefit while also reducing player effectiveness...

I filled every 200 word block with 200 words. Maybe 190 in one of them, but still.

I love the basic system itself. I really like the idea behind the discipline and how the different powers pump. I like how they cap out at "Level 5"-ish. I deeply enjoy how the class breaks so many standard assumptions (Concentration limits, expected action economy, bounded accuracy) but how it does so in a limited fashion, by points and/or time.

I -love- a lot of the disciplines they've put out, too.

Overall, the system gets high marks with the caveat that the gambling mechanics are too punishing, some of the individual powers are too strong, some of the Order abilities are wonky or broken while others make no sense (Seriously, what is the "Theme" behind the Order of the Awakened? Information Gathering? So why Animal Handling, Forced Save Failure, and random-ass 'Ghost Form'?!), and things of that nature.

I also commented, a couple times, that I hope they follow the "Mage" path and split this character into 2-3 psionic classes with a martial option.

-fist bump-

I noticed that too, on the 'identity' of some Orders. Some just don't seem to... jive, y'know?

[joaber]

Some points I remember that I putted in survey:

-didn't like the TWF desing of soul blade, because mystic have too much bonus action options. In a combat, soul blade will use his bonus action for attack less than 50% of time, or never use Mystical Recovery, what affect Consumptive Power usefulness, making Consumptive Knife net a great adding. This really doesn't worth 2 disciplines less.

-Mystic power decrease too much after lvl 10, until get the amazing capstone at 20. The main problem of this is psionic mastery is underpowered. at first glance doesn't look underpowered but it is.
Psionic mastery should get a power level close to lvl 6 to 9 spells, maybe a little less power since brings more flexibility. The problem is you need one action just to get the pool, to get more effectiveness, you'll want to use at least two concentration effects, so you need at least more 2 actions/bonus actions. And basicly when we compare what a 7+ level spell of any class can do in one action, with 11 psi points using 3 to 5 actions/bonus actions, the effect is way underpowered.
removing the action to reach the pool, and letting activate two or more disciplines with only one action, based in mystic's level, would decrease that power difference.

-Mantle of Command attacks couls add some damage, Command to Strike cost 3 psi points, one action, ally reaction for one attack? Can't cast spell, cantrip, multi attack, nothing? Only worth with a level 20 rogue in party.

-Celerity and bestial claws as OP said

[jaappleton]

Some points I remember that I putted in survey:

-didn't like the TWF desing of soul blade, because mystic have too much bonus action options. In a combat, soul blade will use his bonus action for attack less than 50% of time, or never use Mystical Recovery, what affect Consumptive Power usefulness, making Consumptive Knife net a great adding. This really doesn't worth 2 disciplines less.

-Mystic power decrease too much after lvl 10, until get the amazing capstone at 20. The main problem of this is psionic mastery is underpowered. at first glance doesn't look underpowered but it is.
Psionic mastery should get a power level close to lvl 6 to 9 spells, maybe a little less power since brings more flexibility. The problem is you need one action just to get the pool, to get more effectiveness, you'll want to use at least two concentration effects, so you need at least more 2 actions/bonus actions. And basicly when we compare what a 7+ level spell of any class can do in one action, with 11 psi points using 3 to 5 actions/bonus actions, the effect is way underpowered.
removing the action to reach the pool, and letting activate two or more disciplines with only one action, based in mystic's level, would decrease that power difference.

-Mantle of Command attacks couls add some damage, Command to Strike cost 3 psi points, one action, ally reaction for one attack? Can't cast spell, cantrip, multi attack, nothing? Only worth with a level 20 rogue in party.

-Celerity and bestial claws as OP said

Agreed. The action economy on the Mystic is all... There's FAR too many uses of a bonus action. You nailed it regarding the Soul Knife.

Even with certain Disciplines, or Talents, they require a bonus action when it should be an action (Mastery of Air's ability to grant flight) and times with its an action but you be a bonus action (Blade Meld).

[Steampunkette]

Oh! That was one I put in...

I wish Immortals could use Int in place of Dex for AC and still get the Unarmored Defense. That way the player chooses between Dex or Str for weapons.

Kinda wanna Multiclass Barb and Immortal with a great weapon half orc once they make it a more balanced class. Big swings, half from everything but Psychic, temp HP when I knock enemies back or brute strike them...

Rawr!

Plus if I need to do something Strong out of combat and don't want to rage: Focus swap to Brute Force for advantage on athletics.

[jaappleton]

Oh! That was one I put in...

I wish Immortals could use Int in place of Dex for AC and still get the Unarmored Defense. That way the player chooses between Dex or Str for weapons.

Kinda wanna Multiclass Barb and Immortal with a great weapon half orc once they make it a more balanced class. Big swings, half from everything but Psychic, temp HP when I knock enemies back or brute strike them...

Rawr!

I mentioned that. It models the Barbarian Unarmored Defense, not the Monk. And the Immortal gets access to several ways to get Resistance, and there's many Disciplines with defense-oriented options. So I get the concept. But at the same time, Barbs also get d12 HD, and its VERY easy to burn through all your Psi Points at lower levels (Especially before lv5). At least Monks get their attack stat tied into it. Heck, the Stone Sorcerer gets Charisma included in theirs, thats their main stat.

So I don't see why Immortal gets... sorta shafted there.

[Deleted]

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that Wizards doesn't read the feedback? Just curious if you have some experience with working with this type of data before or some insight I am not aware of.

Money.

To read all the feedback at once from write ins means you need a low number of write ins, which wouldn't represent a high enough percentage of the population, or you spend way too many hours reading through all the responses.

And there is no guarantee that those responses are even useful.

It's more effecient to search for buzz words or phrases.

[Steampunkette]

I mentioned that. It models the Barbarian Unarmored Defense, not the Monk. And the Immortal gets access to several ways to get Resistance, and there's many Disciplines with defense-oriented options. So I get the concept. But at the same time, Barbs also get d12 HD, and its VERY easy to burn through all your Psi Points at lower levels (Especially before lv5). At least Monks get their attack stat tied into it. Heck, the Stone Sorcerer gets Charisma included in theirs, thats their main stat.

So I don't see why Immortal gets... sorta shafted there.

'Cause the Immortal should be gaining temp HP every turn, gets the extra 1hp per level to bring them on par with Fighters (Average), use the no-armor avoidance, and so on...

They're not, currently, as specialized as other options because they're meant to get a little bit of everything. Some avoidance, some soak, some recovery... Rather than focusing on any one.

[Steampunkette]

Money.

To read all the feedback at once from write ins means you need a low number of write ins, which wouldn't represent a high enough percentage of the population, or you spend way too many hours reading through all the responses.

And there is no guarantee that those responses are even useful.

It's more effecient to search for buzz words or phrases.

Or, y'know, create an algorithm to read through the responses and bring up repeated phrases, average out the overall scores applied with the "Dissatisfied to Very Satisfied", search for explicitly positive and negative words, select outliers for reading, and have the algorithm provide a series of average (based on the metrics created through the search) responses to each essay question for individual reviewal by the development team, PR, and in-house testers to see if that all lines up, while all the metrics are data-dumped into a pre-defined spreadsheet...

They didn't get enough data on Theurge the first time and just re-released it whole-cloth with no changes to get more survey information, after all, which kinda points to the fact that you're wrong about it being nothing but a PR bump.

Up to you what you believe, but reality is proooobably gonna make you look foolish.

[jaappleton]

Or, y'know, create an algorithm to read through the responses and bring up repeated phrases, average out the overall scores applied with the "Dissatisfied to Very Satisfied", search for explicitly positive and negative words, select outliers for reading, and have the algorithm provide a series of average (based on the metrics created through the search) responses to each essay question for individual reviewal by the development team, PR, and in-house testers to see if that all lines up, while all the metrics are data-dumped into a pre-defined spreadsheet...

Or, y'know, you could be a pessimist and just assume they don't use the surveys at all, even though they didn't get enough data on Theurge the first time and just re-released it whole-cloth with no changes to get more survey information.

Y'know. Whatevs.

Or, y'know... Interns. Just something as simple as interns.

[Steampunkette]

Or, y'know... Interns. Just something as simple as interns.

Heh. I'd love to intern.

Let me pore over the surveys and work my way up onto the dev team.

[Deleted]

Or, y'know, create an algorithm to read through the responses and bring up repeated phrases, average out the overall scores applied with the "Dissatisfied to Very Satisfied", search for explicitly positive and negative words, select outliers for reading, and have the algorithm provide a series of average (based on the metrics created through the search) responses to each essay question for individual reviewal by the development team, PR, and in-house testers to see if that all lines up, while all the metrics are data-dumped into a pre-defined spreadsheet...

They didn't get enough data on Theurge the first time and just re-released it whole-cloth with no changes to get more survey information, after all, which kinda points to the fact that you're wrong about it being nothing but a PR bump.

Up to you what you believe, but reality is proooobably gonna make you look foolish.

Searching for buzz words is the cheapest/easiest way to do it, bar none. How many times did people type X, Y, or Z. Export the data and then hit a search for "this is broken".

To get someone else to make that algorithm is going to cost you.

To make it yourself and actually create it in, what I'm going to guess is r (free and good system), means you need to know what you are doing.

It isnt just *poof* here is an algorithm!

You are literally talking about Masters/Ph.D level stuff if you want to get accurate information.

If you don't want accurate information then just make a strawpoll and use lip service.




Or, y'know... Interns. Just something as simple as interns.

The unpaid internship thing doesn't fly a lot anymore. People are realizing what a scam that is.

[Steampunkette]

Searching for buzz words is the cheapest/easiest way to do it, bar none. How many times did people type X, Y, or Z. Export the data and then hit a search for "this is broken".

To get someone else to make that algorithm is going to cost you.

To make it yourself and actually create it in, what I'm going to guess is r (free and good system), means you need to know what you are doing.

It isnt just *poof* here is an algorithm!

You are literally talking about Masters/Ph.D level stuff if you want to get accurate information.

If you don't want accurate information then just make a strawpoll and use lip service.

Gosh. I guess there's no reasonable way the massive piles of money Wizards has could be used to pay someone to create such an algorithm and standardize its use across different product surveys to maximize their initial investment.

And it's not like there are literally hundreds of companies out there willing to provide such analytics or analytic software on either a contractual basis or straight up direct purchase...

I guess you're right and there's no way these surveys mean anything.

[joaber]

Kinda wanna Multiclass Barb and Immortal with a great weapon half orc once they make it a more balanced class. Big swings, half from everything but Psychic, temp HP when I knock enemies back or brute strike them...


well, remember that when mystic turn official, he'll probably follow the same rules of "no spell or concentrate while in rage".

Another thing I pointed out in survey. The 1-7 psi point damages. after you hit high levels, they are close to useless. Why should I spend 5 psi points to do 5d10 + effect if I could do 4d10+5 for 0?
they should add damage in talents, as they do with weapons. Ok, don't need to be 1-1 proportion as it is now.

[Deleted]

Gosh. I guess there's no reasonable way the massive piles of money Wizards has could be used to pay someone to create such an algorithm and standardize its use across different product surveys to maximize their initial investment.

And it's not like there are literally hundreds of companies out there willing to provide such analytics or analytic software on either a contractual basis or straight up direct purchase...

I guess you're right and there's no way these surveys mean anything.

You realize how cheap WotC is?

D&D isn't the main money maker and doesn't get top money from mommy Hasbro.

But yes, because they are a company they can just waste a ton of money and spend, spend, spend, because they are a company.

Something tells me you've never been in corporate America.

[Steampunkette]

You realize how cheap WotC is?

D&D isn't the main money maker and doesn't get top money from mommy Hasbro.

But yes, because they are a company they can just waste a ton of money and spend, spend, spend, because they are a company.

Something tells me you've never been in corporate America.

Something tells me you're such a pessimist you don't understand that having a standardized survey method is a massive BENEFIT to a company, by creating a singular method of getting feedback from product testers and focus groups.

I get that Hasbro isn't willing to spend more money on WotC than it -absolutely- has to. But so long as Magic is making enough of a profit to hold the whole production company afloat you can bet your sweet patootie they've got analytics to measure it's current performance and to test it's appeal going forward -before- they spend millions of dollars on the next card set launch.

Which means Surveys. Which are easier to manage as a corporation when they're standardized across products. Which means even D&D, the "Poor Unfortunate Soul" of Hasbro would still be covered.

Seriously, Deleted, critically think this stuff through rather than just looking at the WORST possible outcome or interpretation and assuming that is pure and divine truth handed down to you on a platter.

[jaappleton]

You realize how cheap WotC is?

D&D isn't the main money maker and doesn't get top money from mommy Hasbro.

But yes, because they are a company they can just waste a ton of money and spend, spend, spend, because they are a company.

Something tells me you've never been in corporate America.

I ----ing get it. You don't like WOTC. You don't seem to enjoy any aspect of D&D, especially Unearthed Arcana. In fact, in nearly EVERY topic I've seen you post in, all you and your pessimism does it drag it down. Frankly, its toxic, and as a result, I basically scroll past every post you make as a result of it. I'm unable to recall a single post of yours that I'd consider positive or optimistic since I joined GITP. Not one single post. All you seem to do is poison topics with negativity.

[DaggerEar]

I'd like to point out that the Soul Knife kind of needs that +7. :smalltongue: Otherwise their DPR falls behind the other Mystics, heck, behind the other classes.

EDIT: for instance, a Paladin (11th level) doesn't need to spend any resources to achieve a similar damage output: 2d6 (7) + 1d8 (4.5) + 5 = 16.5 *2 = 33.

By spending 12 Psi Points, the Soul Knife (14th level) can deal 4.5*3 = 13.5 + 7 + 4.5 + 7 + 5 = 37.

12 Psi Points = a 5th level spell and a 3rd level spell. And they're still doing less DPR than a Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, or Warlock. They're fine getting a +7.

I'm new to this class and making a lvl 4 Mystic for a campaign and instead of making a whole thread I figured it might appropriate speaking of the soul knife. I'm a little confused on orders and discplines.So can a soul knife use wu jen disciplines? how do those work in tandem or is it each order is restricted to their own disciplines? Doesn't seem the soul knife has its own disciplines for the order though.

[jaappleton]

I'm new to this class and making a lvl 4 Mystic for a campaign and instead of making a whole thread I figured it might appropriate speaking of the soul knife. I'm a little confused on orders and discplines.So can a soul knife use wu jen disciplines? how do those work in tandem or is it each order is restricted to their own disciplines? Doesn't seem the soul knife has its own disciplines for the order though.

A Mystic of any Order can use any Discipline. Immortals can learn Awakened Disciplines, and Avatars can learn Wu Jen. The only restrictions on this are that when you join any Order, you gain two bonus Disciplines of your own type. So an Immortal learns two Immortal Disciplines for free. These 'free' Disciplines don't count against the Disciplines Known limit shown near the top of the Mystic Document.

There is one exception to this.

Soul Knives don't have any Disciplines of their own. As such, they gain no 'bonus' disciplines. In my opinion, Nomadic Step is a good one to put on a Soul Knife, as are several Immortal disciplines.

Do note, however, that the Soul Knife gets two blades. Attacking with whichever isn't your 'main hand' is a bonus action. Remember that without any disciplines, as a Soul Knife, you already have 3 things, all competing for your bonus action: Mystic Recovery (which all Mystics get), attacking with your 'off hand' knife, or the ability to 'parry' with your Soul Knife and gain a +2 to AC. You can never do more than one. And that's not counting for any other bonus action abilities you may get, like from a Discipline. So plan your turn carefully.

[Ugganaut]

I'm having trouble keeping it to 200 words for the Disciplines. And it's disheartening to know they can't feasible go through all the feedback. Which I understand, but for something like this one that takes a fair bit of time to go through, you'd like to know you aren't wasting your time.

Deleted, you have to be the most negative person I've seen on these threads, that isn't also offensive. It's quite a talent.

[Theodoxus]

I'm having trouble keeping it to 200 words for the Disciplines.

I had the same issue - by the time I got to the last page dealing with every power? I just threw my hands up and left it blank. I provided thoughtful commentary on the bad editing and rushed feel to the Orders and Disciplines. Offered opinion on what I'd change, including the suggestion to make Shadow Beasts a two tier power.
But a 200 limit is extremely small when dealing with something as massive as a 28 page PDF on new mechanics and stretching Bounded Accuracy to the near breaking point.

[jaappleton]

I had the same issue - by the time I got to the last page dealing with every power? I just threw my hands up and left it blank. I provided thoughtful commentary on the bad editing and rushed feel to the Orders and Disciplines. Offered opinion on what I'd change, including the suggestion to make Shadow Beasts a two tier power.
But a 200 limit is extremely small when dealing with something as massive as a 28 page PDF on new mechanics and stretching Bounded Accuracy to the near breaking point.

Yeah, the feedback system they have in place isn't really enough for something as big as the Mystic.

We're rating not only the class but a new system of powers. Disciplines provide many abilities in each, so while it may use the Spell Point Variant, it's not a 1 to 1 ratio of "spellcasting to disciplines".

If I'm a Warlock, I get X spells known. If I'm a Mystic, I have X Disciplines known, but each Discipline has so many different abilities that I can activate.

It's very difficult to judge the Mystics "power", just how strong it is.

While you can map out the DPR and resource cost of that, there's also a lot of power in being able to do so many things. Things spells can't do because there's no spell equivalent of many Mystic powers. So just how 'strong' the Mystic is, that's a very rough question to answer. Especially in 200 words.

[Theodoxus]

I also noted that talents tend to be too powerful. Energy Beam lets you pick an energy type every time it's cast. Chromatic Orb has a hefty initial investment in a 50g gem. EB (oh geez, now we need to differentiate between EBs...) really only has it's lack of rider effects to differentiate between the various elemental cantrips. It does less damage than Fire bolt (good), same as Ray of Frost, but no slow rider), More than Acid Splash (but no splash), same as Shocking Grasp, but no Reaction denial... If a wizard could grab 1 cantrip that did the same, I know I would drop all the riders to grab elemental choice!

Then there's Mind Thrust - same range and damage as Fire bolt, but it's a way better damage type and uses an Int save instead of an attack roll... As a DM, I'd love to use this against my parties that tend to minimize Intelligence... "Oh, you thought you needed Wisdom saves? Ha! Take this 2d10+4 Psychic Damage, barbarian - no resistance for you!" Hitting a DC 15 (5th level, 18 Int) when you have -1 to Int saves means I win ;)

I recommended cutting Energy Beam to 1d6 - I still think I'd prefer a singular cantrip that does a d6 at 90 feet of the element I choose - just for the utility. MT should also probably be reduced to 1d8 - Make it an Int flavored Sacred Flame... with double the range... Having it do more damage, better range, similar damage type but harder to save against than SF just means the Mystic steps stamps on the Clerics toes...

We need to be vigilant in keeping power creep tamped down as much as possible.

New classes should be fun to play because they're fun to play, not because they provide a 5-15% increase in power. This isn't an MMORPG where new classes need help catching up to 'top tier raiding toons' who've existed for 10 years.

[jaappleton]

I also noted that talents tend to be too powerful. Energy Beam lets you pick an energy type every time it's cast. Chromatic Orb has a hefty initial investment in a 50g gem. EB (oh geez, now we need to differentiate between EBs...) really only has it's lack of rider effects to differentiate between the various elemental cantrips. It does less damage than Fire bolt (good), same as Ray of Frost, but no slow rider), More than Acid Splash (but no splash), same as Shocking Grasp, but no Reaction denial... If a wizard could grab 1 cantrip that did the same, I know I would drop all the riders to grab elemental choice!

Then there's Mind Thrust - same range and damage as Fire bolt, but it's a way better damage type and uses an Int save instead of an attack roll... As a DM, I'd love to use this against my parties that tend to minimize Intelligence... "Oh, you thought you needed Wisdom saves? Ha! Take this 2d10+4 Psychic Damage, barbarian - no resistance for you!" Hitting a DC 15 (5th level, 18 Int) when you have -1 to Int saves means I win ;)

I recommended cutting Energy Beam to 1d6 - I still think I'd prefer a singular cantrip that does a d6 at 90 feet of the element I choose - just for the utility. MT should also probably be reduced to 1d8 - Make it an Int flavored Sacred Flame... with double the range... Having it do more damage, better range, similar damage type but harder to save against than SF just means the Mystic steps stamps on the Clerics toes...

We need to be vigilant in keeping power creep tamped down as much as possible.

New classes should be fun to play because they're fun to play, not because they provide a 5-15% increase in power. This isn't an MMORPG where new classes need help catching up to 'top tier raiding toons' who've existed for 10 years.

I certainly see what you're saying regarding Energy Beam. Its a bit TOO versatile. I wouldn't mind it being cut to only Fire, Cold, Lightning. However, if dropped to d6, I'd like a rider for it.

As far as the Chromatic Orb, that does 3d8, right? So its a substantial boost for a first level spell compared to a talent.

[Ferrin33]

Yeah, the feedback system they have in place isn't really enough for something as big as the Mystic.

We're rating not only the class but a new system of powers. Disciplines provide many abilities in each, so while it may use the Spell Point Variant, it's not a 1 to 1 ratio of "spellcasting to disciplines".

If I'm a Warlock, I get X spells known. If I'm a Mystic, I have X Disciplines known, but each Discipline has so many different abilities that I can activate.

It's very difficult to judge the Mystics "power", just how strong it is.

While you can map out the DPR and resource cost of that, there's also a lot of power in being able to do so many things. Things spells can't do because there's no spell equivalent of many Mystic powers. So just how 'strong' the Mystic is, that's a very rough question to answer. Especially in 200 words.

Regarding the Disciplines vs Spells known;

Discipline powers can have redundancy/higher level effects as seen in the Giant Growth discipline, or have 1-2 powers in it that are really powerful, with the others tacked on for fluff, orredundancy if you have other disciplines.

The total package of disciplines you will pick throughout your carreer is likely to include several of such redundant effects; Multiple AoE's with the same range and targets, single target effects that cost the same for the same damage etc.

Many disciplines have smaller effects that would not be worth a spell-known either by their niche use, or how powerful they are. They add flavor and complete the package of a discipline though, and for a RPing game I think disciplines function much better than spells because of this.

[brainface]

I also noted that talents tend to be too powerful. Energy Beam lets you pick an energy type every time it's cast. Chromatic Orb has a hefty initial investment in a 50g gem. EB (oh geez, now we need to differentiate between EBs...) really only has it's lack of rider effects to differentiate between the various elemental cantrips. It does less damage than Fire bolt (good), same as Ray of Frost, but no slow rider), More than Acid Splash (but no splash), same as Shocking Grasp, but no Reaction denial... If a wizard could grab 1 cantrip that did the same, I know I would drop all the riders to grab elemental choice!

Then there's Mind Thrust - same range and damage as Fire bolt, but it's a way better damage type and uses an Int save instead of an attack roll... As a DM, I'd love to use this against my parties that tend to minimize Intelligence... "Oh, you thought you needed Wisdom saves? Ha! Take this 2d10+4 Psychic Damage, barbarian - no resistance for you!" Hitting a DC 15 (5th level, 18 Int) when you have -1 to Int saves means I win ;)



I feel like they made some of the talents vaguely better than cantrips because the psion gets so few (possibly due to psychic focus counting as cantrip-tier effects, if I had to guess). I mean... you start with one and wizards get 3, sorcerers 4. So being able to pick your element when you have one cantrip isn't really that impressive when someone can have fire bolt and acid blast and shocking grasp, to me. Also--I don't really think choosing your element is that versatile--it feels like for 90% or more of your opponents it's dealing Xd8 damage or Xd8 damage. ^^ What it might do however is give the perception of being too good, and that may be just as bad--I can definitely see the wizard player making faces whenever the mystic starts picking random damage types just because they can.

Mind thrust is basically eldritch blast tier. It feels like it'll be hard to pass up. (I could've sworn undead were largely psychic resistant, but I'm apparently imagining that.)

Also man these surveys are long.

[Zalabim]

Yes, the survey is quite long, and I absolutely despise the "how do you feel on a five point scale" style of survey as well. I still filled it all out.


I also noted that talents tend to be too powerful. Energy Beam lets you pick an energy type every time it's cast. Chromatic Orb has a hefty initial investment in a 50g gem. EB (oh geez, now we need to differentiate between EBs...) really only has it's lack of rider effects to differentiate between the various elemental cantrips. It does less damage than Fire bolt (good), same as Ray of Frost, but no slow rider), More than Acid Splash (but no splash), same as Shocking Grasp, but no Reaction denial... If a wizard could grab 1 cantrip that did the same, I know I would drop all the riders to grab elemental choice!

Unfortunately, you'll have to settle for Chill Touch.

Then there's Mind Thrust - MT should also probably be reduced to 1d8 - Make it an Int flavored Sacred Flame... with double the range... Having it do more damage, better range, similar damage type but harder to save against than SF just means the Mystic [S]steps stamps on the Clerics toes...
I was not aware that single-target cantrip damage belonged to clerics. If MT is overtuned, I suspect the fault lies with potent psionics.

[Knaight]

]But yes, because they are a company they can just waste a ton of money and spend, spend, spend, because they are a company.

Something tells me you've never been in corporate America.

Because corporations are bastions of perfect fiscal efficiency, unwilling to part with money if it's not absolutely necessary and certainly never likely to blow huge amounts of money on rank stupidity.

[Jerrykhor]

I feel like they made some of the talents vaguely better than cantrips because the psion gets so few (possibly due to psychic focus counting as cantrip-tier effects, if I had to guess). I mean... you start with one and wizards get 3, sorcerers 4. So being able to pick your element when you have one cantrip isn't really that impressive when someone can have fire bolt and acid blast and shocking grasp, to me. Also--I don't really think choosing your element is that versatile--it feels like for 90% or more of your opponents it's dealing Xd8 damage or Xd8 damage. ^^ What it might do however is give the perception of being too good, and that may be just as bad--I can definitely see the wizard player making faces whenever the mystic starts picking random damage types just because they can.

Mind thrust is basically eldritch blast tier. It feels like it'll be hard to pass up. (I could've sworn undead were largely psychic resistant, but I'm apparently imagining that.)

Also man these surveys are long.
I'm creating a 5th level Soul Knife, and I just realised that attacking with offhand knife+Mind Thrust does more damage than attacking with both knives. Not sure if WotC realised this, but this kind of design is pretty bad. A Soul Knife should be encouraged to attack with his weapons right?

Another weird design is how Soul Knives have better AC by not wearing armour (taking Inertial Armour from Mastery of Force) when they have proficiency in medium armour. Though that may be due to how rubbish medium armour is in general.

[Ferrin33]

I'm creating a 5th level Soul Knife, and I just realised that attacking with offhand knife+Mind Thrust does more damage than attacking with both knives. Not sure if WotC realised this, but this kind of design is pretty bad. A Soul Knife should be encouraged to attack with his weapons right?

Another weird design is how Soul Knives have better AC by not wearing armour (taking Inertial Armour from Mastery of Force) when they have proficiency in medium armour. Though that may be due to how rubbish medium armour is in general.

You can only attack with your off-hand if you take the attack action iirc.

[jaappleton]

I'm creating a 5th level Soul Knife, and I just realised that attacking with offhand knife+Mind Thrust does more damage than attacking with both knives. Not sure if WotC realised this, but this kind of design is pretty bad. A Soul Knife should be encouraged to attack with his weapons right?

Another weird design is how Soul Knives have better AC by not wearing armour (taking Inertial Armour from Mastery of Force) when they have proficiency in medium armour. Though that may be due to how rubbish medium armour is in general.

Medium Armor is good only if you get Shield proficiency with it.

Soul Knife is weird because it CAN be good, but you need to dump all your Points into buffing it. That's where the lv6 features comes in, to replenish your pool so you can do it again. Problem is, you need to spend so many turns in combat buffing yourself that half the enemies were killed by your allies before you're ready to rock.

[Jerrykhor]

Medium Armor is good only if you get Shield proficiency with it.

Soul Knife is weird because it CAN be good, but you need to dump all your Points into buffing it. That's where the lv6 features comes in, to replenish your pool so you can do it again. Problem is, you need to spend so many turns in combat buffing yourself that half the enemies were killed by your allies before you're ready to rock.

What are you going to buff yourself with besides Hone the Blade? I'm of the idea that Soul Knife can keep up with the damage output of other martials if they try hard enough, and at the expense of utility Disciplines, but its not worth it. I'd rather have more utility, more tide-turning abilities in tougher, potentially TPK fights than a bit more damage that probably amounts to nothing. Soul Knives are really gishes in theory, thats why they get fewer Disicplines.

That said, my experience with Soul Knife will probably differ a lot, since I'm using a tweaked version of it, with unique homebrew Disciplines for Soul Knife, buffed capstones (free action to summon soul knives), and replacement of Phantom Knife.

[joaber]

I made a one shot, with friends. In game I saw that Mantle of Command can be better than I tought.
If you ready Command to Strike to use it in your ally turn, he can get his extra attack with that attack action. I don't know if should work that way, but I don't think is OP, you need your action, your reaction, 3 psi point, his reaction and your concentration (or not, we don't know if ready a discipline has the same effect as ready a spell).