How strong is the mystic really?

[Sir cryosin]

Now I don't read anything that deals more damage then a 5th level spell. Now I know you can stack con abilities. Also you can do stuff with your action and more stuff with your bonus action. Also everything is a saving throw. Most of the abilities say on a save the target that's half of the damages. But then you have abilitys that say the same but makes the distinction of the rider effect doesn't work to. When a lot of abilities don't make that distinction. So with all this how powerful is the mystic class?

[SharkForce]

riders not happening on a successful saving throw for damaging spells is quite typical. nothing unusual there.

as to the rest... i'd say a smidgeon stronger than a typical caster from 1-10, *especially* for the very early levels, because they have so many options, especially because they use points instead of slots. but much weaker than a typical caster beyond level 10, when casters start getting their level 6+ spells while a mystic doesn't get anything remotely similar. i mean, some of their abilities might be similar in power to some level 6+ spells, but none of them equal the most impressive level 6+ spells. i mean, you might get a damage spell that is roughly comparable to, say, disintegrate in terms of damage (which is certainly not a bad thing, disintegrate does some good damage, of a good damage type). not identical, but fairly comparable. but then, disintegrate also offers some utility; whatever you disintegrate won't be regenerating or reviving, and disintegrate can remove a large volume of matter as well as destroying walls of force and similar (as well as being one of the few ways to finish off a level 20 moon druid, not that that's likely to come into play super often).

[Eclipsian77]

much weaker than a typical caster beyond level 10

I would say that the ability to stack certain concentration effects (as mentioned by the OP) is very powerful, and is what really sets a mystic apart during the mid-to-late levels.

That same versatility you mentioned is another way the mystic shines - not just with discipline effects, but also with their foci.

Strength is kind of abstract; you seem to be looking primarily at the direct damage options, which are pretty good, but not as good as some other classes can get to. Admittedly, my opinion is based purely on theorycrafting (have not had an opportunity to take the class for a test drive yet), but it seems that the class excels more at control and general versatility than direct damage - if one equates their psi points to spell points, they can't cast anything higher than a 5th level spell equivalent and they get fewer spell points than a full caster would - I believe that's even with their Psionic Mastery ability.

Admittedly I might be missing something, I have been looking primarily at the Wu Jen and Awakened disciplines.

[Theodoxus]

Lack of action on Bestial Claws means you can literally dump all your psi points in 1 to psi limit chunks in a single round, dealing (psi points)d10 damage to a target.

You wanna nova? That's how you nova...

It's poorly edited crap like that, that makes the class unplayable without deep DM rulings.

[Newtonsolo313]

Lack of action on Bestial Claws means you can literally dump all your psi points in 1 to psi limit chunks in a single round, dealing (psi points)d10 damage to a target.

You wanna nova? That's how you nova...

It's poorly edited crap like that, that makes the class unplayable without deep DM rulings.
Except they probably just forgot the word action in the description

[SharkForce]

I would say that the ability to stack certain concentration effects (as mentioned by the OP) is very powerful, and is what really sets a mystic apart during the mid-to-late levels.

That same versatility you mentioned is another way the mystic shines - not just with discipline effects, but also with their foci.

Strength is kind of abstract; you seem to be looking primarily at the direct damage options, which are pretty good, but not as good as some other classes can get to. Admittedly, my opinion is based purely on theorycrafting (have not had an opportunity to take the class for a test drive yet), but it seems that the class excels more at control and general versatility than direct damage - if one equates their psi points to spell points, they can't cast anything higher than a 5th level spell equivalent and they get fewer spell points than a full caster would - I believe that's even with their Psionic Mastery ability.

Admittedly I might be missing something, I have been looking primarily at the Wu Jen and Awakened disciplines.

stacking concentration on small effects is nice, certainly.

are you suggesting it is as powerful as, say, mass suggestion, finger of death, forcecage, simulacrum, maze, mind blank, clone, wish, shapechange, true polymorph, foresight, feeblemind, etherealness, conjure fey/elemental + planar binding, create undead, power word stun/kill, upcast geas, heroes' feast, antipathy/sympathy, antimagic field, upcast globe of invulnerability, meteor swarm, etc? (many of which, i might add, have no concentration requirement).

because that's what spellcasters are getting at level 11+ for psi mastery to compete with. and yes, they even get more spell point equivalents to add on top of that.

and no, i'm not focusing on damage. damage is simply very easy to compare. is maze better than symbol? well, that depends on whether you're looking to set up a trap, whether you can spare 1,000 gold, how intelligent your target is, etc, which means there's no clear way to decide which is more impressive. on the other hand, i can very easily compare, say, shatter and erupting earth. there isn't much difficulty in just plonking the two down side by side and comparing them.

at low levels when most spellcasters don't really have a lot of options, sure mystic is beating them on versatility. at higher levels, mystic is getting completely blown out of the water in comparison. sure, the mystic can probably do 30+ things at high level, but a fair number of those things are probably similar, and those 30 things aren't all freely chosen, they're all stuck together with other things. meanwhile, at high levels spellcasters can frequently do a lot of different things by that point also, and they're not tied together, and probably little if any overlap will be present. and many spellcasters can even change up what they do on any given day... a druid, wizard, or cleric might have fewer things they can do at any given time (though even then, a land druid or any type of cleric may come quite close), but the number of things they can do over the course of a week is huge.

and, unlike the mystic, most casters can actually convert gold into something that isn't a shiny overpriced paperweight, and can convert downtime into current power. a wizard given some downtime can turn a couple thousand gold into a pair of CR 6 invisible stalkers to follow him around obeying orders for the next 6 months at level 15. what does a mystic do with those kinds of resources? i'm suspiscious the answer is going to be "nothing at all" personally.

[skaddix]

Lack of action on Bestial Claws means you can literally dump all your psi points in 1 to psi limit chunks in a single round, dealing (psi points)d10 damage to a target.

You wanna nova? That's how you nova...

It's poorly edited crap like that, that makes the class unplayable without deep DM rulings.

Don't forget that Discipline comes with 2 AC of Free Armor and Concentration Free Flight. Sure 2 is not a lot buts its free and every bit. And if they do take you out of the sky just get Mastery of Air and take no falling damage.

[Sir cryosin]

I just got back from playing my mystic for the first time. My DM commented that it felt op. Now we're at 5th level and I only really used was psionic blast, cloak of air, wind form, inertial armor, broken will and the talent mine thrush. I got the broken will off on a white waryming had it cold breath attack the group of barbarians and move in the opposite direction. Then I used psionic blast on a caster finishing him off breaking a con spell on are rogue freeing her. I used cloak of air on a few creatures and they hurt them self. Having the high AC didn't help to much but we were fighting barbarians I took two crits. When I was low on HP i used wind form and fly out of there reached lucky I didn't take any aoo's. Now my DM has 1 encounter per day so I can go Nova on these encounters. And I told him that if he could give use more encounters it wouldn't feel op. But I will say I was weary. About everything well besides psionic blast is a saving throw. Also if your not diligent about resource management your pp runs out quick. I was putting out high damage higher then are evoker and compareable to are assassin rouge. But are evoker is are only aoe right now. We are a group of gnome gunsmith artificer, tiefling Rogue assassin, cleric 1 Evo wizard 4 human, half elf lore bard, them me mystic high elf order of the awaken.

[Jerrykhor]

I just got back from playing my mystic for the first time. My DM commented that it felt op. Now we're at 5th level and I only really used was psionic blast, cloak of air, wind form, inertial armor, broken will and the talent mine thrush. I got the broken will off on a white waryming had it cold breath attack the group of barbarians and move in the opposite direction. Then I used psionic blast on a caster finishing him off breaking a con spell on are rogue freeing her. I used cloak of air on a few creatures and they hurt them self. Having the high AC didn't help to much but we were fighting barbarians I took two crits. When I was low on HP i used wind form and fly out of there reached lucky I didn't take any aoo's. Now my DM has 1 encounter per day so I can go Nova on these encounters. And I told him that if he could give use more encounters it wouldn't feel op. But I will say I was weary. About everything well besides psionic blast is a saving throw. Also if your not diligent about resource management your pp runs out quick. I was putting out high damage higher then are evoker and compareable to are assassin rouge. But are evoker is are only aoe right now. We are a group of gnome gunsmith artificer, tiefling Rogue assassin, cleric 1 Evo wizard 4 human, half elf lore bard, them me mystic high elf order of the awaken.
Your DM is dumb. By his logic, most classes like Wizards, Sorcerers, Paladins, Bards, would seem OP too if they knew it was always going to be 1 encounter per day. Never having to manage resources, going HAM in every fight.... most classes would look good except short rest classes.

[Dracul3S]

A few problematic disciplines aside: Okay. Not too strong, but not weak either. Note that your damage won't realy scale at higher levels. But that's less of an issue than one might think. Just focus on hindering and debuffing enemies and you will do fine. The abiltiy to concentrate on multiple effects helps a lot.

[joaber]

I would say that the ability to stack certain concentration effects (as mentioned by the OP) is very powerful, and is what really sets a mystic apart during the mid-to-late levels.

That same versatility you mentioned is another way the mystic shines - not just with discipline effects, but also with their foci.

Strength is kind of abstract; you seem to be looking primarily at the direct damage options, which are pretty good, but not as good as some other classes can get to. Admittedly, my opinion is based purely on theorycrafting (have not had an opportunity to take the class for a test drive yet), but it seems that the class excels more at control and general versatility than direct damage - if one equates their psi points to spell points, they can't cast anything higher than a 5th level spell equivalent and they get fewer spell points than a full caster would - I believe that's even with their Psionic Mastery ability.

Admittedly I might be missing something, I have been looking primarily at the Wu Jen and Awakened disciplines.

They need at least 2 actions and one bonus action to stack 2 concentrations, this can reach even 5 or 6 actions/bonus actions. Just compare the effect with a lvl 7+ speel that cost just one action...
If, at least they could activate all disciplines with only one action, this would be better.
At high level some discipline effects aren't good anymore, like the 1-7 psi points per damage dice. Your talent is giving 4d10+5 for 0 psi points, you need to spend 5 psi points for 5d10, half damage if miss + some effect. In the end you psi pool increase less than what you need to spend. You gain new disciplines but lose disciplines effects. Looks like you're stagnat after lvl 10.



Don't forget that Discipline comes with 2 AC of Free Armor and Concentration Free Flight. Sure 2 is not a lot buts its free and every bit. And if they do take you out of the sky just get Mastery of Air and take no falling damage.

Isn't free, just concentration free. You still need a bonus action to activate, 2 and 5 pp respectively and work for 1h. And you need to spend one of your few discipline slots in that.


I just got back from playing my mystic for the first time. My DM commented that it felt op. Now we're at 5th level and I only really used was psionic blast, cloak of air, wind form, inertial armor, broken will and the talent mine thrush. I got the broken will off on a white waryming had it cold breath attack the group of barbarians and move in the opposite direction. Then I used psionic blast on a caster finishing him off breaking a con spell on are rogue freeing her. I used cloak of air on a few creatures and they hurt them self. Having the high AC didn't help to much but we were fighting barbarians I took two crits. When I was low on HP i used wind form and fly out of there reached lucky I didn't take any aoo's. Now my DM has 1 encounter per day so I can go Nova on these encounters. And I told him that if he could give use more encounters it wouldn't feel op. But I will say I was weary. About everything well besides psionic blast is a saving throw. Also if your not diligent about resource management your pp runs out quick. I was putting out high damage higher then are evoker and compareable to are assassin rouge. But are evoker is are only aoe right now. We are a group of gnome gunsmith artificer, tiefling Rogue assassin, cleric 1 Evo wizard 4 human, half elf lore bard, them me mystic high elf order of the awaken.

Looks like if was 6 to 8 standard encounters day would be way different, right?

[Sir cryosin]

They need at least 2 actions and one bonus action to stack 2 concentrations, this can reach even 5 or 6 actions/bonus actions. Just compare the effect with a lvl 7+ speel that cost just one action...
If, at least they could activate all disciplines with only one action, this would be better.
At high level some discipline effects aren't good anymore, like the 1-7 psi points per damage dice. Your talent is giving 4d10+5 for 0 psi points, you need to spend 5 psi points for 5d10, half damage if miss + some effect. In the end you psi pool increase less than what you need to spend. You gain new disciplines but lose disciplines effects. Looks like you're stagnat after lvl 10.




Isn't free, just concentration free. You still need a bonus action to activate, 2 and 5 pp respectively and work for 1h. And you need to spend one of your few discipline slots in that.



Looks like if was 6 to 8 standard encounters day would be way different, right?

Without a doubt if there was more encounters than a day I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to Nova like that. Also keep in mind that most of the enemies that I encountered that night or enemies with very low Int. One gripe that I have about Mystic is that everything is a saving throw. It's not bad that almost everything is a intelligence Saving throw or a Charisma saving throw. But this could just be my preference I really don't like save or suck abilities. So I do wish some of their ability abilities will be where you can make attack rolls. And I started this thread to get people's opinions because I am a little bit worried about how it plays out after 10th level. Yes concentrating on more than one thing at a time can be powerful but it is such a pain and it takes too long to set up. In this Edition every every ability has a shorter duration than what they did before.

[Foxhound438]

aside from a list of things that need to be brought in line with spells as far as costs and damage, I think its strongest aspect is the sheer number of options it gets. So it's on par with wizard, basically.

[Garresh]

The core class itself is not fundamentally overpowered, but the disciplines are all over the place. Some are meh. Others are absolutely absurd. I also worry about the multiconcentration feature. But at this point its down to discipline changes. The core chassis is tight.

Edit: Actually, they do get a bit too many disciplines I think. One discipline is practically a class feature set on its own. Having so many makes them step on other players toes a lot. The design can either lose some versatility by cutting discipline count, or lose power across all disciplines. But I do think it is coming along nicely. I'm looking forward to playing it eventually.

[Sir cryosin]

Is it just me but all the Avatar's disciplines all do the same thing.

[joaber]

I don't see that part of they having yo many disciplines. When you start choosing to make a build, you see you need more. Many effects of each disciplines are terrible, some are useless for your build, sometimes you choose one discipline for just one effect. And the problem I see, many effects are terrible at high levels like the shadows you can conjure, looks OP at lvl 3, but are a waste of action at 20.
In the end you have 10 disciplines and 45 effects, but you only use 18. While a caster has 23 spells and use all.

[RSP]

Haven't gone through it all yet but the Soul Knife has a few issues, namely being able to constantly refill your Psi by killing the old "bag of rats," and the level 14 ability to basically autohit everything as there is no restriction on the use of the "your attack goes against AC 10". With no multi attack for the class, you're only losing the possible bonus action attack from TWF, which just means you use it for the +2 AC effect.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Typos aside, my sense is that they are slightly weaker than decently-optimized characters of other classes. And by the time they address everyone's complaints and 'fix' all of the corner case options that are better than what other classes have, there probably won't be a good reason to play one except for flavor.

If the existing classes are able to collectively handle anything an adventure throws at them, then any new class *must* step on the toes of one class or another, at least a little bit. Otherwise, the new class is pretty worthless.

Specific thoughts:

* It's easy for a GM to rule that the Soul Knife doesn't regain PP if he doesn't feel threatened. Bag of rats fixed, yay.

* Psionic characters ought to be best at traditional 'psychic' activities, but the mystic is not: Telepathy, telekinesis, psychometry, clairvoyance, maybe even pyrokinesis.

* Some of the mechanics feel finicky:
** Healing from spending PP could be a free action.
** Psychic Mastery could go. Instead, let the Psi Limit and PP increase every two levels as normal. Then phase in special abilities like double focus, double discipline concentration, mastered discipline (choose a discipline for which everything is 2pp cheaper) and effortless discipline (choose a discipline for which you never lose concentration).

* It feels as though someone who prefers D&D4 to D&D3x finally got their way with this class, having supernatural powers that are all short-term, very short-term, limited and tactical, even compared to a Warlock. (By contrast, D&D5 largely feels to me like a simplified 3ed that incorporates some ideas from D&D4.)

* I like the versatility. A general 'psychic' class should allow for as much variability as a general 'wizard' class.

* I'd like to see an 'internal' versus 'external' (or mental vs physical) set of options independent of discipline. The latter could provide benefits such as Second Attack (almost every class now has an option that allows this.) The former could provide benefits that improve discipline use.

Anyway,

Ken

[Sir cryosin]

Haven't gone through it all yet but the Soul Knife has a few issues, namely being able to constantly refill your Psi by killing the old "bag of rats," and the level 14 ability to basically autohit everything as there is no restriction on the use of the "your attack goes against AC 10". With no multi attack for the class, you're only losing the possible bonus action attack from TWF, which just means you use it for the +2 AC effect.

I don't find sk getting pp back is a problem if a player is carrying a bag of rats just to get pp back that's a problem for the DM not the class. I don't see any DMs letting warlocks carry a bag of rats for hex. The auto hit is wired but I don't see any problem with it considering they can turn there blades into +7 weapon's

[RSP]

i just dislike that if you're already using your bonus action for the +2 AC, there's no reason to ever not use that ability.

On the flip side, the entire Mystic class is kind of defeated by Mind Blank.

[Newtonsolo313]

i just dislike that if you're already using your bonus action for the +2 AC, there's no reason to ever not use that ability.

On the flip side, the entire Mystic class is kind of defeated by Mind Blank.

What do you mean? You only get to use one bonus action so you have to choose between the ac or the to hit

[SharkForce]

I don't find sk getting pp back is a problem if a player is carrying a bag of rats just to get pp back that's a problem for the DM not the class. I don't see any DMs letting warlocks carry a bag of rats for hex. The auto hit is wired but I don't see any problem with it considering they can turn there blades into +7 weapon's

it can be a bit more of a problem if, for example, you occasionally expect to fight a large group of goblins instead of a couple of tougher creatures, or if you're fighting druids that summon wolf packs.

[Theodoxus]

Why do you need a bag of rats for hex?

Regarding the temp HP, it's the same problem with fiend pact warlocks - everyone will be fighting the kill steal to pad their temp HP totals... It's not a mechanic I've ever enjoyed...

[Sir cryosin]

Why do you need a bag of rats for hex?

Regarding the temp HP, it's the same problem with fiend pact warlocks - everyone will be fighting the kill steal to pad their temp HP totals... It's not a mechanic I've ever enjoyed...

You pull out a rat hex it kill it and short rest and just keep hex all day.

[joaber]

You pull out a rat hex it kill it and short rest and just keep hex all day.

Maybe Mearls don't know what "subsequent" is, but: https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/512655572508753921?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthesageadvice.wordpress.com% 2Ftag%2Fhex%2F

How he put here, you don't need a bag of rats to keep hex for full duration.