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Avianmosquito
2017-03-21, 04:55 PM
This is a simple one: Can a CR really be applied to a creature that can't physically harm the party? I've got an incorporeal creature for Aelsif called the Formless Falsetto that will torment characters with its voice, but can't actually harm them as it has no physical form. Can I give such a thing a CR, since it's not a threat to anybody on its own?

GalacticAxekick
2017-03-21, 05:15 PM
This is a simple one: Can a CR really be applied to a creature that can't physically harm the party? I've got an incorporeal creature for Aelsif called the Formless Falsetto that will torment characters with its voice, but can't actually harm them as it has no physical form. Can I give such a thing a CR, since it's not a threat to anybody on its own?I'm not certain how CR is calculated in 3.5e, and so it's very possible that such a creature would have a CR 0 for being harmless.

But make no mistake, if it can dissuade the party from achieving their goals on its own, or if it can make it difficult for them to face other obstacles, it is a threat.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-21, 05:39 PM
I'm not certain how CR is calculated in 3.5e, and so it's very possible that such a creature would have a CR 0 for being harmless.

Oh, it's not harmless. The harm it inflicts just isn't physical, and it can't kill by itself.


But make no mistake, if it can dissuade the party from achieving their goals on its own, or if it can make it difficult for them to face other obstacles, it is a threat.

If inflicting effects like "shaken", preventing rest and compelling them via enchantment to seek out and try to free its physical form (these creatures are fragments of a great old one's disembodied voice) count as "dissuading the party from achieving their goals", then yes. It very definitely does.

GalacticAxekick
2017-03-21, 05:48 PM
Oh, it's not harmless. The harm it inflicts just isn't physical, and it can't kill by itself. I mean, you specifically titled this thread "CR for a creature that can't harm the party". You're free to define harm as including or excluding psychological harm, but at least be consistent.


If inflicting effects like "shaken", preventing rest and compelling them via enchantment to seek out and try to free its physical form (these creatures are fragments of a great old one's disembodied voice) count as "dissuading the party from achieving their goals", then yes. It very definitely does.The shaken condition by itself is not enough to dissuade the party: people can keep adventuring even if they feel a bit spooked. But the prevention of rest can be lethal, and the enchantent you describe can totally realign their goals, so yes, this creature is very capable of threatening the success of the party.

erikun
2017-03-21, 05:49 PM
If it isn't a combat encounter, then you could just treat it as an obstacle to overcome and rate it on the difficulty in doing so. In general, overcoming a creature would be similar to overcoming a hazard with similar required rolls. (Assume taking 10 in such situations to determine difficulty, if with a recent D&D system.)

If the creature can't be fought, can't be attacked, and can't be overcome, then it isn't really an encounter (and can't really have a CR). In that case, it is more a story event or RP encounter and the party should really only gain XP for overcoming that part of the story, as opposed to "defeating" the situation.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-21, 06:24 PM
I mean, you specifically titled this thread "CR for a creature that can't harm the party". You're free to define harm as including or excluding psychological harm, but at least be consistent.

That title isn't accurate, I just didn't want to find out if there was a character limit.


The shaken condition by itself is not enough to dissuade the party: people can keep adventuring even if they feel a bit spooked.

That was just one example of how it can weaken the party. It can also inflict despair (as "crushing despair"), penalize concentration, and when defeated (it can't be defeated permanently, but it can be disabled long enough to flee from it) it lets out a scream causes intelligence damage.


But the prevention of rest can be lethal,

Funny thing, in real life schizophrenia can actually be so severe as to often prevent its victims from sleeping. Paranoia already makes it hard to sleep, and when you add on auditory hallucinations sleep sometimes becomes a monumental challenge if not an outright impossibility. As far as I know, none of these people actually die from a lack of sleep because dying of sleep deprivation isn't actually possible.


and the enchantent you describe can totally realign their goals, so yes, this creature is very capable of threatening the success of the party.

That's what it tries to do first. If you don't do what it wants, it starts torturing you next. The entire point of its existence is to get its body freed. Unfortunately, there's a lot of very heavily armed people around the prison of K'Macthia, whose entire purpose is to prevent the mother of monsters from being freed. Trying to do this will get you killed, and even if you did succeed K'Macthia is likely to go on a rampage as soon as she revives in anger for having been impaled in a collapsed temple for millenia.

A bit of a no-win scenario, isn't it?


If it isn't a combat encounter, then you could just treat it as an obstacle to overcome and rate it on the difficulty in doing so. In general, overcoming a creature would be similar to overcoming a hazard with similar required rolls. (Assume taking 10 in such situations to determine difficulty, if with a recent D&D system.)

Whether it is a combat encounter or not depends strictly on whether the party attacks it or not. Otherwise it will continually torment them until they escape it, blast it or do what it wants.


If the creature can't be fought, can't be attacked, and can't be overcome, then it isn't really an encounter (and can't really have a CR). In that case, it is more a story event or RP encounter and the party should really only gain XP for overcoming that part of the story, as opposed to "defeating" the situation.

It can be attacked and defeated like any other incorporeal creature, although it cannot be permanently killed, and it can be escaped from. (It has a fixed movement speed, even. It can only fly at 30ft per round.) It performs as any other incorporeal creature in most respects, except it lacks any abilities that can directly injure or kill.

Hashmalum
2017-03-21, 07:15 PM
There is actually precedent for harmless creatures having a CR: ordinary bats have no attacks, but have CR 1/10. Given that this thing can indeed screw with the party in various ways, I think a CR is completely appropriate.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-21, 07:26 PM
Beautiful. Now I just need to figure out what its CR would actually be.

Jormengand
2017-03-21, 07:31 PM
Really, CR is at least nominally equal to the APL of a party who would spend about a quarter of their daily resources to get rid of a creature, whether that's by making themselves immune to the harm it deals and walking away, or by killing it. So it absolutely can be applied, and even be quite high, for something which can't kill the party.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-21, 07:44 PM
Really, CR is at least nominally equal to the APL of a party who would spend about a quarter of their daily resources to get rid of a creature, whether that's by making themselves immune to the harm it deals and walking away, or by killing it. So it absolutely can be applied, and even be quite high, for something which can't kill the party.

Well, if it catches you on a road or something and you're okay with leaving it to go make somebody else's life a living hell, you could be level 1 and by yourself and just run away, provided you can run long enough it'll lose track of you. (It doesn't get tired, after all.) Then it'll go float into a town and harass everybody it can find until they all pick up and move. Then it'll follow their carts and it'll find a new town to harass until they run away. And so on. It's one hell of a menace, primarily for the economic damage it inflicts by forcing people to move. There's a lot of ghost towns in Sohei because of these things.

But, if you want to actually disable it, remembering it can't actually be killed, that might be difficult. It having 10 HD, regeneration and being incorporeal is quite hard for a party to overcome. Disintegrate will one-shot it, but chewing through 45hp with magic missile sucks, especially when competing with regeneration, and everything else has a 50% fail rate. The standard civilian method is to light house house on fire from the outside in, and hope that when it dissipates the wind blows it far enough away to not come back.

Kaskus
2017-03-21, 09:21 PM
Posting the full stat block would make evaluation much easier.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-21, 10:54 PM
Posting the full stat block would make evaluation much easier.

Formless Falsetto
Medium Aberration, Incorporeal, Celestial (Lesser)
Hit dice: 10d8+0 (45 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Fly 30ft
Armor Class: 14 (+1 dexterity, +3 deflection), flat-footed 13
Base attack/grapple: +7/+3
Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d6-4)
Full attack: Slam +3 melee (1d6-4) and slam -2 melee (1d6-4)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special attacks: Song of the Betrayed, Song of fear, Song of despair, Shocking screech
Special qualities: Ethereal, DR 5, Whispers, Tongues, Invisibility, Regeneration 10, That Which Can Eternal Lie
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 3, Cha 16, Wis 12
Saves: Ref 4, For 3, Will 9
Skills: Perform (Sing) 6
Feats: Alertness, iron will, stealthy
Environment: Otherlands
Organization: Individual
Challenge rating: ???
Advancement: N/A

Ethereal (Ex): The formless falsetto is ethereal and incorporeal. It cannot physically harm corporeal entities, and cannot be physically harmed by them. They may combat incorporeal entities normally, and may be attacked with ghost touch weapons, positive energy, negative energy and force. Magic and energy-based attacks have a 50% chance to affect them.

(So yes, while this creature does have attacks, they only affect other ethereal entities. It may beat up the ghost in your attic, though as hopelessly weak as its attacks are even that isn't likely, but it can't hurt anything corporeal.)

DR 5/--

Whispers (Ex): When within 30ft of a formless falsetto, any creature susceptible to mind-affecting spells hears otherworldly falsetto mutterings in their head, causing them to be come shaken for 5d6 rounds unless they succeed a will save with a DC of 18. A listener who succeeds their saving throw is immune to Whispers for 24 hours. The save DC is charisma-based.

Invisibility (Ex): The formless falsetto is a formless, transparent mass and cannot be seen. I am not going to copy+paste the entire ruleset on visible creatures, you know how invisibility works for ethereal entities.

Regeneration (Ex): The formless falsetto never takes lethal damage from an attack, and regenerates 10 hit points each round. The formless falsetto is immune to death effects, and even a coup de grace or failed save against massive damage will only deal nonlethal damage equal to its maximum hit points (45).

That Which Can Eternal Lie (Ex): The formless falsetto cannot be slain, but reaching a total amount of non-lethal damage equal to twice its maximum hit points (90hp) will force it to dissipate, expanding to colossal size. When dissipated, the formless falsetto's DR rises to 25, but it loses its dexterity and deflection bonus to AC and gains a -8 to AC from its size. The formless falsetto drifts at 5ft/round until it finds wind, and is carried at the speed and in the direction of the wind until it condenses. While dissipated, it only recovers 10 hit points per day, and will not condense again until it recovers to full hit points.

(If you missed it, that means it should drift with the wind for nine days before it regains what little form it has and becomes active again. So yes, there is a point to blasting it, with any luck the wind will blow it far, far away. And even if there's no wind, it'll drift 120 miles on its own in that time, that's far enough that it may not come back. Fingers crossed.)

Tongues (Ex): The formless falsetto speaks and understands all languages.

Song of the Betrayed (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a pleading song to a single listener within 30ft to free it from the Tomb of K'Macthia in the Otherlands of western Sohei. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or become charmed for 10 hours. Once charmed, the listener is subject to these pleas as if they were made with the spell "charm person" or "charm monster", and normal rules apply.

Song of Fear (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a chaotic, lurching song that strikes fear into a single listener within 30ft. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or become frightened for 10 minutes. A listener that doesn't speak at least one language cannot understand the lyrics and gains a +4 on their saving throw. This replaces the shaken effect from the formless falsetto's whispers.

Song of Despair (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a sweeping, tragic song that brings a single listener to tears. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or be inflicted with crushing despair, as the spell, for 10 minutes. A listener that doesn't speak at least one language cannot understand the lyrics and gains a +4 on their saving throw.

Shocking Screech (Ex): If the formless falsetto is forced to disperse, its last action is to emit an ear-splitting psychic scream that rings in the minds of all listeners within 30ft. All listeners must make a will save with a DC of 18 or receive 1d6 intelligence damage.

Formless Falsettos are five small fragments of K'Macthia's voice. The great old one K'Macthia was betrayed by its worshippers and imprisoned in a collapsed temple, the temple's support column driven through her chest. As it faded it sang a final song in mourning and its telepathic voice separated from its body, shattering into pieces known as the Ethereal Choir. The Betrayed Baritone was the largest piece, the Suffering Soprano was the smallest, the two Battered Basses were second largest, the three Ashamed Altos were the third largest, and the five Formless Falsettos were second smallest.

(Yes, yes. 1, 1, 2, 3, 5. Presumably if I made more types there'd be 8, 13, 21 and so on. I'm sure at least one of you noticed, very good.)

The Formless Falsettos wander the Otherlands around the Tomb of K'Macthia, pleading with those they encounter to free them from the tomb and tormenting those who don't comply with songs of fear and despair until they comply or the falsetto gives up. Unkillable as their body, the fragments of dead K'Macthia will forever seek their body's freedom and resurrection until the day they can rejoin their physical form.

(Is that enough information? Or should I list its combat habits?)

Bucky
2017-03-21, 11:01 PM
It should definitely have a CR because it can combine with some actual threats to make them more threatening. And given how much it can stack its debuffs, and its potent defenses, I'd have a hard time seeing it with a lower CR than about 5.

(E): Also, there *is* a lose condition for the party - everyone ends up charmed. Therefore, it shouldn't be considered harmless.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-21, 11:09 PM
It should definitely have a CR because it can combine with some actual threats to make them more threatening. And given how much it can stack its debuffs, I'd have a hard time seeing it with a lower CR than about 5.

Most lesser celestials have a CR of about 10, if it has a CR of 5 I'll have to reclassify it as a minor celestial.


(E): Also, there *is* a lose condition for the party - everyone ends up charmed. Therefore, it shouldn't be considered harmless.

Goddamn ninja... Anyway, the charm doesn't last forever. Can you really walk across a continent in 10 hours? I don't think so. It has to keep you failing that save to get you to actually walk to the Tomb of K'Macthia, so it's not a 100% loss. And even then, it's just a charm spell, it's not dominate. If walking across the continent into the alien Otherlands and trying to penetrate territory guarded by a large army is something to which you would vehemently object, it can't get you to do that.

Bucky
2017-03-21, 11:10 PM
CR 5 is a lower bound. It might be considerably higher.

(E) How bad 'everyone is charmed' is depends on who gets charmed and at what level. If some of the party members are capable of fast travel, they might well reach the tomb, leaving the others behind.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-21, 11:28 PM
CR 5 is a lower bound. It might be considerably higher.

That's good, I was aiming for 10.


(E) How bad 'everyone is charmed' is depends on who gets charmed and at what level. If some of the party members are capable of fast travel, they might well reach the tomb, leaving the others behind.

It is just a charm spell, you know. It's not dominate. Also, the Otherlands stretch for almost 800 miles inland from the Tomb of K'Macthia. (The Tomb of K'Macthia is an island in the Otherseas just off the coast.) That's a LONG way, you know. You'd have to be really, really fast to get there in 10 hours, like 80 miles per hour kind of fast, through xenoformed terrain full of otherworldly fauna and anomalies.

Not to mention when you get there you'd be faced with an entire legion trying to keep you out, most of which are in the level 5-10 range. Because frankly, the slow outward creep of the Otherlands makes our world ****ed ENOUGH without you releasing K'Macthia. (In fact, K'Macthia was betrayed and entombed specifically because people figured out it was creating the Otherlands with its bile. Though now K'Macthia is bleeding, and it turns out its blood also mutates terrestrial life. So we're ****ed anyway and now we've pissed it off. Go team!)

Bucky
2017-03-22, 12:08 AM
You'd have to be really, really fast to get there in 10 hours, like 80 miles per hour kind of fast, through xenoformed terrain full of otherworldly fauna and anomalies.

That's within range of Teleport.



Not to mention when you get there you'd be faced with an entire legion trying to keep you out, most of which are in the level 5-10 range. Because frankly, the slow outward creep of the Otherlands makes our world ****ed ENOUGH without you releasing K'Macthia.

Being compelled to fight through an endless legion of monsters for 10 hours sounds like a sufficiently nasty result for losing a fight.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-22, 12:16 AM
That's within range of Teleport.

On this episode of Teleport Ruins Everything...


Being compelled to fight through an endless legion of monsters for 10 hours sounds like a sufficiently nasty result for losing a fight.

They aren't monsters, they're a humanoid military. Mostly spirit folk and halflings. And if that sounds like something you'd vehemently object to, you wouldn't do it. Again, it's ONLY a charm, it's not domination. As the spell says: "The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing."

This creature is armed with a charm effect and "Please go to my body's tomb and somehow free me from underneath a collapsed building where the central support column has impaled me through the chest, while an entire legion of heavily armed soldiers shoots you with muskets and stabs you with swords.".

Bucky
2017-03-22, 12:29 AM
If it's trying to charm PCs, convincing them to break into an ancient, ruined temple might not even require the opposed Charisma check.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-22, 12:38 AM
If it's trying to charm PCs, convincing them to break into an ancient, ruined temple might not even require the opposed Charisma check.

POINT.

Do you think the legion of mid-level soldiers trying to stop them is going to make that easier or harder? Actually, there's also the otherlands themselves. Do you think the 800 miles of redzone is going to make them more or less inclined to go that way? While we're at it, how do you think the fact that releasing K'Macthia might result in an apocalyptic rampage may affect it? Or the fact that we're going to be xenoformed either way?

Bucky
2017-03-22, 12:45 AM
Depends. Does the PC know how it's guarded? Can they reasonably believe they could do the job without taking on the guards? Do they know what the consequences will be if they're successful? Can the falsetto's +3 Bluff modifier beat their Sense Motive regarding the last point?

Avianmosquito
2017-03-22, 12:56 AM
Depends.

Alright, now the GM fun starts.


Does the PC know how it's guarded?

Depends. Knowledge checks and bardic lore may make this a "yes". Because holy **** is it well guarded. A legion means roughly 6,000 soldiers. Add on another 12,000 support staff and an equal number of civilians, and remember that this legion is mostly mid-level, many (hundreds) are high-level and some (dozens) are epic-level. They regularly defeat K'Macthia's children, the great ones it produced with It Yeek'Kal Thet, Sha'nit-Feek'It-La'Kep and Nya-Za'Thoth, and they will annihilate your party. So, can such a force exist without it being common knowledge, at least in the Otherlands? It's a great question.


Can they reasonably believe they could do the job without taking on the guards?

Another question that varies based on PC skill sets.


Do they know what the consequences will be if they're successful?

A rampage, which may or may not be followed by a reduced rate in the Otherlands spreading? They almost certainly don't understand the long-term consequences, but they won't live to see a significant difference anyway. We're talking millenia of spread already, just for 800 miles. It'll take aeons for the whole planet to be xenoformed.


Can the falsetto's +3 Bluff modifier beat their Sense Motive regarding the last point?

Depends on the party. Besides, does sense motive really apply? The Falsetto is quite honest. "Please free me. I just want to continue my work of making your world better (like mine)."

Overwhelming odds are the party will get splattered across the xenoscape anyway, if they do try. That is one massively overwhelming force assembled there.

Bucky
2017-03-22, 10:12 AM
In other words, there's a significant chance it can talk at least one party member into going if it charms everyone.

The backup 'plan' is scattering the party by frightening off anyone that knows what they're getting into is also pretty threatening. Then sending one or two people into the Otherlands.

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Difficulty
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It's defenses are really potent - DR 5 on top of being incorporeal on top of Regeneration 10. And some of the players hitting it will presumably be Shaken.

Offensively, it's effectively throwing around Save-or-Lose effects. A successful charm or Song of Fear knocks someone out of the fight. This leads to an even harder time overcoming its regeneration.

In other words, it's still a very dangerous encounter by itself until the party can blast through 90 HP with magic AND achieve a sustained 11 DPR through incorporeal miss chances WHILE one party member isn't contributing. I'm not calibrated well enough to know at what level that happens.

A very rough estimate is that it's about as challenging to defeat as an adult dragon (CR 14).

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mechanics
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The Whispers ability doesn't appear to have the standard no-retries clause for fear auras.

Why does it have ranks in Move Silently when incorporeal creatures auto-succeed Move Silently checks? That might as well be Perform(Sing).

Avianmosquito
2017-03-22, 11:21 AM
In other words, there's a significant chance it can talk at least one party member into going if it charms everyone.

The backup 'plan' is scattering the party by frightening off anyone that knows what they're getting into is also pretty threatening. Then sending one or two people into the Otherlands.

Well, people wouldn't burn their houses down over a minor nuisance. And boy, in base 3.5, that wouldn't even work. (Non-magical fire only does 1d6 no matter what? WHY?)



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Difficulty
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It's defenses are really potent - DR 5 on top of being incorporeal on top of Regeneration 10. And some of the players hitting it will presumably be Shaken.

Well, a creature that relies on throwing around status effects that can be magically prevented or cured and many party members will have large bonuses or total immunity to probably needs some high defences. Though DR, it's worth remembering, is only relevant to physical damage so most of the firepower going in won't be subject to it.


Offensively, it's effectively throwing around Save-or-Lose effects. A successful charm or Song of Fear knocks someone out of the fight. This leads to an even harder time overcoming its regeneration.

In other words, it's still a very dangerous encounter by itself until the party can blast through 90 HP with magic AND achieve a sustained 11 DPR through incorporeal miss chances WHILE one party member isn't contributing. I'm not calibrated well enough to know at what level that happens.

I'd say around level 11, where the party's casters have spells that can one-shot it. (Harm does it guaranteed in one, disintegrate knocks it down almost to dispersal at caster level 11.) A party lacking a cleric, sorcerer or wizard (or any other caster who can blast out high-damage force or negative energy spells) won't be able to do that, though.


A very rough estimate is that it's about as challenging to defeat as an adult dragon (CR 14).

Oh good, that's the very upper limit of the "lesser celestial" range. (Minor celestials are CR 5-9, lesser is 10-14, greater is 15-19. 20-29 is great ones, and the great old ones are 30+. It says something about Aelsif's aliens that CR 9 is "minor" and CR 14 is "lesser", doesn't it?)

Now, that is less than ideal. I had hoped it would be a little weaker than that. Perhaps I can lower the CR by extending the time it takes to sing its songs? A full minute, perhaps?



---
mechanics
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The Whispers ability doesn't appear to have the standard no-retries clause for fear auras.

That's an error on my part, it should have it.


Why does it have ranks in Move Silently when incorporeal creatures auto-succeed Move Silently checks? That might as well be Perform(Sing).

Because I forgot that.

I'll fix those now.

noob
2017-03-22, 02:43 PM
This creature should have a significant cr: it can help a lot another creature to attack the team.
for Cring there is a war independent of philosophical questions:count hit dice(and multiply by the type modifier which is 1/4 for aberration) then add bonuses for abilities(+1 for a weak defensive or offensive ability +2 for a strong one)
I guess that with that it reach high CR
It have two insane defensive abilities: high regen+dr and incorporeal+etheral
(probably +4 cr)
10 aberration hit dice(+2.5 cr)
And have a lot of attacks that are: make saves or be super screwed which corresponds to the kind of attack a creature of a cr between 9 and 12 could have(a creature of a cr lower than 9 with a save dc of this kind is an oddity in pathfinder which is quite near to 3.5)http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterCreation.html
but since it fits in "powerful special attack"(if there was a super crazily one shot ultimate death final super special attack category it would be in it but they never through there would be a monster with such game ending powers) I guess this means that it is only a +2
So it have a CR of at least 8.5(2+4+2.5)


"Ethereal (Ex): The formless falsetto is ethereal and incorporeal. It cannot physically harm corporeal entities, and cannot be physically harmed by them. They may combat incorporeal entities normally, and may be attacked with ghost touch weapons, positive energy, negative energy and force. Magic and energy-based attacks have a 50% chance to affect them."
the description you do after the properties of being incorporeal and ethereal are not included in the two previous ones:ethereal and incorporeal creatures can fight normally only creatures that are both.

The ultimate offensive ability it have is the following:

Song of the Betrayed (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a pleading song to a single listener within 30ft to free it from the Tomb of K'Macthia in the Otherlands of western Sohei. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or become charmed for 10 hours. Once charmed, the listener is subject to these pleas as if they were made with the spell "charm person" or "charm monster", and normal rules apply.

1: It is extraordinary which is conveniant.
2: it is not charm person nor charm monster it just makes the target charmed which is a condition which is never described and which have no reasons whatsoever to end when the target is harmed by the person who charmed it.
3: Once the target is charmed you can make pleas which makes the subject behave like if he was affected by charm person at the moment the plea is done.
So the formless falsetto might start casting this spell on all his opponents then he might kill them with ease(just need the time for them to starve) since each time he attacks one of his targets(with the fear stuff) he can just after that make the plea of freeing him from his tomb(and so the target do that like if he was under charm person and so can not attack the caster) then use again his attack.
This monster can cause tpk and it is not unlikely to do that.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-22, 02:57 PM
This creature should have a significant cr: it can help a lot another creature to attack the team.
for Cring there is a war independent of philosophical questions:count hit dice(and multiply by the type modifier which is 1/4 for aberration) then add bonuses for abilities(+1 for a weak defensive or offensive ability +2 for a strong one)
I guess that with that it reach high CR
It have two insane defensive abilities: high regen+dr and incorporeal+etheral
(probably +4 cr)
10 aberration hit dice(+2.5 cr)
And have a lot of attacks that are: make saves or be super screwed which corresponds to the kind of attack a creature of a cr between 9 and 12 could have(a creature of a cr lower than 9 with a save dc of this kind is an oddity in pathfinder which is quite near to 3.5)http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterCreation.html
but since it fits in "powerful special attack"(if there was a super crazily one shot ultimate death final super special attack category it would be in it but they never through there would be a monster with such game ending powers) I guess this means that it is only a +2
So it have a CR of at least 8.5(2+4+2.5)


"Ethereal (Ex): The formless falsetto is ethereal and incorporeal. It cannot physically harm corporeal entities, and cannot be physically harmed by them. They may combat incorporeal entities normally, and may be attacked with ghost touch weapons, positive energy, negative energy and force. Magic and energy-based attacks have a 50% chance to affect them."
the description you do after the properties of being incorporeal and ethereal are not included in the two previous ones:ethereal and incorporeal creatures can fight normally only creatures that are both.

The ultimate offensive ability it have is the following:

Song of the Betrayed (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a pleading song to a single listener within 30ft to free it from the Tomb of K'Macthia in the Otherlands of western Sohei. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or become charmed for 10 hours. Once charmed, the listener is subject to these pleas as if they were made with the spell "charm person" or "charm monster", and normal rules apply.

1: It is extraordinary which is conveniant.
2: it is not charm person nor charm monster it just makes the target charmed which is a condition which is never described and which have no reasons whatsoever to end when the target is harmed by the person who charmed it.
3: Once the target is charmed you can make pleas which makes the subject behave like if he was affected by charm person at the moment the plea is done.
So the formless falsetto might start casting this spell on all his opponents then he might kill them with ease(just need the time for them to starve) since each time he attacks one of his targets(with the fear stuff) he can just after that make the plea of freeing him from his tomb(and so the target do that like if he was under charm person and so can not attack the caster) then use again his attack.
This monster can cause tpk and it is not unlikely to do that.

This is really starting to PISS ME OFF.

Charm cannot do ANY of that. In fact, DOMINATE can't do ANY of that. It is JUST a CHARM effect, it follows the exact same rules in what it can and cannot do as ANY OTHER charm effect, just like ANY other creature with a charm effect, and there are many of those. The rulebook is VERY EXPLICIT on exactly what "charm" means in monster abilities, and you can't just ignore literally every single rule to pretend an effect achievable by a level-1 spell is an instant TPK.

Have a link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

A VAMPIRE can do better than that.

noob
2017-03-22, 03:33 PM
Sorry but the ability is never said to be a charm effect it is only said that the creature is charmed which makes it entirely unsimilar from a level 1 spell.
Furthermore for tpk it also needed to make creatures be stuck by fear stacking for reaching the cowering state(else the creatures would then research food when they start to be hungry) and then once the creatures are cowering the wisp can just keep making them afraid freezing them until they succeed an high number of saves in a row(due to the 10 minutes duration of the spell which means that the creature can try more than 10 times on each adventurer the time the fear ends on one of them(but the creature on the other hand needs 3 success per adventurer every 10 minutes))

Avianmosquito
2017-03-22, 03:38 PM
Sorry but the ability is never said to be a charm effect it is only said that the creature is charmed which makes it entirely unsimilar from a level 1 spell.

It doesn't have to say "This charm is a charm effect like the charm spell and follows charm rules because it is a charm effect and only does what charm can do because CHARM CHARM CHARM CHARM CHARM.", charm is a recognized term with a specific meaning. Shaken is also a recognize term with a specific meaning, so is damage, so is literally everything else here. I do not have to copy+paste the entire rulebook after every game term, this isn't a Bee Movie meme.

Oh, and frightened can also do nothing you think it can do. The SRD is explicit then too.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm

Panicked can't even make a character starve to death, much less frightened. All frightened will do is make a character run away from a creature that can't move fast enough to seriously pursue.

The combat habits of the creature directly reflect this. It is unkillable and has an agenda, so all it does is use song of the betrayed to try and get itself freed, if it fails then it uses song of despair to lower their save and check bonuses and tries again. If it won't work or they attack it in a way that actually causes damage, it uses song of fear to make them **** off and it moves on to the next target. Not only can it not intentionally kill ANY corporeal entity, it doesn't want to.

noob
2017-03-22, 04:08 PM
Cowering

The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class and loses her Dexterity bonus (if any).
It is the final state of fear.(source: the page you quoted)

The cr of a creature do not depends on what mister B wants but of what a creature of this kind could do in a battle(which is way less horrible than what a creature can do if he plans instead of fighting)

Avianmosquito
2017-03-22, 04:09 PM
it is the final state of fear.(source: The page you quoted)

Frightened characters DO NOT cower. Cowering requires PANIC.

You're clearly a troll. I'm done with you.

noob
2017-03-22, 04:20 PM
I am sorry about fear stacking: this creature only have two sources of shaken fear so the highest state it can make people reach is frightened.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-22, 04:24 PM
I am sorry about fear stacking: this creature only have two sources of shaken fear so the highest state it can make people reach is frightened.

Effects only stack like that if it explicitly says they do. It can't stack them at all, it just has a passive shaken effect and an active frightened effect. If you are shaken and it hits you with frightened, you're just frightened. If you're frightened and it hits you with shaken, you're still just frightened. Even if you're already frightened and get hit again with frightened, you're still only frightened. And yes, if you're shaken and get hit with shaken again you're still shaken. It does not stack.

erikun
2017-03-22, 04:39 PM
Alright then, it's been awhile since I went over a 3.5e stat block, but let's see what we have.

First of all, Incorporeal/Ethereal together is somewhat interesting, at least making the creature harder to kill through somewhat "direct" attempts like Plane Shift directly to the Ethereal. The biggest concern here is that Ethereal creatures cannot interact with Material creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness), not even magically. (Third paragraph, second to last line.) This means that the Formless Falsetto technically could not use Whispers or any Songs without some way to manifest in the Material plane, an ability they do not have.

You could have a method around this for plot reasons, but you certainly would want to think it through - perhaps K'Macthia got stuck halfway between the Prime/Ethereal planes and so that is why the echos of his voice are special - but you'd probably want an explanation as to why they are different and break the fundamental rules of how the planes work.

Incorporeal creatures do not have Strength scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), and use Dexterity to attack. This doesn't mean they have 0 STR, but rather -- STR, and thus no positive/negative modifier. Mind you, I'm not sure how such a creature even COULD attack, so it might just have a Base Attack and Grapple modifier in case those situations come up somehow, without any actual physical attacks.

Also, note that Ethereal creatures can only see/hear 60' into the Material Plane, at least normally.

Back to the creature, it is probably a bit more vulnerable than you might think. Anyone can see it with See Invisibility, as this ignores all three of its otherwise invisibility-defenses. Any force effects are fully effective (and about the only thing effective) so a barrage of Magic Missiles can put it down, although the various Force Sphere spells would be more effective. Note that a Ghost Touch weapon and positive/negative magic won't effect it, due to its Etherealness. (If the party would Plane Shift to Ethereal, though, they could use Ghost Touch and magic against it as normal.)

While the rest of the abilities are either defensive or merely inconvenient, Song of the Betrayed specifically can take control of the party for 10 hours and have them do basically whatever the Falsetto wants - which, basically, will involve trekking to the Tomb of K'Macthia. Depending on how intelligent the Falsetto acts, this could be even worse than that: if it decides to follow, it can keep singing the same song and pretty much guarantee that the party will fail their save again within 10 hours, resetting it. On the other hand, 3 INT makes that unlikely, although the party might be wary about running into several near the tomb and pretty much guaranteeing a fulltime charm as a result.

Other than that, it's fairly annoying getting feared/dispeared during a fight, or even around potential traps.

A quick look over traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#designingATrap) indicates that a trap of this nature would be around CR 13 or so, possibly higher (CR15 or more) thanks to no chance to disable it, and it effectively triggering every turn. That seems to match up to around the difficulty in dealing with the encounter: Plane Shift is a 7th level wizard spell, and so available at level 13. There are other ways of dealing with it (Bigby's Grasping Hand, also 7th level wizard spell) and it should be noted that Clerics get Plane Shift as early as 9th level, but overall you aren't likely to run into a party below 13th level that can reasonably deal with this thing at all without some highly creative thinking. I would put the creature at CR13 or CR15 simply because the party has no way to reasonably deal with the threat it poses, moreso than the threat being overly dangerous to begin with. I probably would not even assign experience points for an encounter, though, or even mention that it was an "encounter" to begin with, unless the party manages to overcome it.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-22, 05:17 PM
Alright then, it's been awhile since I went over a 3.5e stat block, but let's see what we have.

First of all, Incorporeal/Ethereal together is somewhat interesting, at least making the creature harder to kill through somewhat "direct" attempts like Plane Shift directly to the Ethereal. The biggest concern here is that Ethereal creatures cannot interact with Material creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness), not even magically. (Third paragraph, second to last line.) This means that the Formless Falsetto technically could not use Whispers or any Songs without some way to manifest in the Material plane, an ability they do not have.

You could have a method around this for plot reasons, but you certainly would want to think it through - perhaps K'Macthia got stuck halfway between the Prime/Ethereal planes and so that is why the echos of his voice are special - but you'd probably want an explanation as to why they are different and break the fundamental rules of how the planes work.

Actually, I was just copying the text from the ghost template's description, sorry for the term mix-up. There's no planes in this setting, at all. This creature is just a fragment of K'Macthia's voice. Like, literally. Great old ones' minds can actually leave their heads and physically wander as a telepathic manifestation (that is, and this baffles some scholars, not subject to effects that target magic and psionic abilities), and their voice (notably telepathic) is a part of that mind. Fun part is if you went and bashed its brains in (which would take some doing) all the fragments of its voice would disperse, but since K'Macthia is completely immortal that's a temporary thing as well and they'd condense again when its brain regenerated.


Incorporeal creatures do not have Strength scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), and use Dexterity to attack. This doesn't mean they have 0 STR, but rather -- STR, and thus no positive/negative modifier. Mind you, I'm not sure how such a creature even COULD attack, so it might just have a Base Attack and Grapple modifier in case those situations come up somehow, without any actual physical attacks.

Well, I've never made an incorporeal or ethereal creature before because I normally don't like them and don't use them, so my apologies for any errors.


Back to the creature, it is probably a bit more vulnerable than you might think. Anyone can see it with See Invisibility, as this ignores all three of its otherwise invisibility-defenses. Any force effects are fully effective (and about the only thing effective) so a barrage of Magic Missiles can put it down, although the various Force Sphere spells would be more effective. Note that a Ghost Touch weapon and positive/negative magic won't effect it, due to its Etherealness. (If the party would Plane Shift to Ethereal, though, they could use Ghost Touch and magic against it as normal.)

Ghost touch works on ghosts, and ghosts are ethereal. Incorporeal subtype, from your own source, says positive and negative energy work on it, as well as ghost touch attacks, and that magic works 50% of the time.


While the rest of the abilities are either defensive or merely inconvenient, Song of the Betrayed specifically can take control of the party for 10 hours and have them do basically whatever the Falsetto wants - which, basically, will involve trekking to the Tomb of K'Macthia. Depending on how intelligent the Falsetto acts, this could be even worse than that: if it decides to follow, it can keep singing the same song and pretty much guarantee that the party will fail their save again within 10 hours, resetting it. On the other hand, 3 INT makes that unlikely, although the party might be wary about running into several near the tomb and pretty much guaranteeing a fulltime charm as a result.

There's five of them total in a roughly circular region 1600 miles in diameter. You won't run into more than one, ever.


Other than that, it's fairly annoying getting feared/dispeared during a fight, or even around potential traps.

A quick look over traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#designingATrap) indicates that a trap of this nature would be around CR 13 or so, possibly higher (CR15 or more) thanks to no chance to disable it, and it effectively triggering every turn. That seems to match up to around the difficulty in dealing with the encounter: Plane Shift is a 7th level wizard spell, and so available at level 13. There are other ways of dealing with it (Bigby's Grasping Hand, also 7th level wizard spell) and it should be noted that Clerics get Plane Shift as early as 9th level, but overall you aren't likely to run into a party below 13th level that can reasonably deal with this thing at all without some highly creative thinking. I would put the creature at CR13 or CR15 simply because the party has no way to reasonably deal with the threat it poses, moreso than the threat being overly dangerous to begin with. I probably would not even assign experience points for an encounter, though, or even mention that it was an "encounter" to begin with, unless the party manages to overcome it.

My error with the ethereal term aside, there being no planes in this setting makes it a lot easier to deal with. A party has a 50/50 shot of damaging it with any spells or energy-based attacks (even mundane fire, which is why people burn their houses down when one of these moves in), and they could always use negative energy, force or ghost touch. The creature's defences aren't all that strong if you have the ability to hit an incorporeal creature and the DPR to burst it down through its regeneration. I said an 11th-level cleric or arcane caster could one-shot it, and that remains the case. A lower-level party could blast it with some negative energy or force and take it out, but the issue there becomes outcompeting its regeneration.

The_Jette
2017-03-23, 08:40 AM
Has anyone in the party considered attempting to catch the creature in a Bag of Holding, or Portable Hole? The Portable Hole would be pretty hard to get it into, since it's ethereal, but empty out a midsize to large Bag of Holding, and you can use it as a makeshift net. All it takes is one good roll, and close the bag. What's it going to do, cut its way out? If the party can make it to a town, a little bit of Sovereign Glue can ensure that particular beastie is out of the world for good...

Durzan
2017-03-23, 10:19 AM
Has anyone in the party considered attempting to catch the creature in a Bag of Holding, or Portable Hole? The Portable Hole would be pretty hard to get it into, since it's ethereal, but empty out a midsize to large Bag of Holding, and you can use it as a makeshift net. All it takes is one good roll, and close the bag. What's it going to do, cut its way out? If the party can make it to a town, a little bit of Sovereign Glue can ensure that particular beastie is out of the world for good...

Where would the bag of holding store the stuff. He just said that Planes don't exist at all in this Homebrewed setting.

The_Jette
2017-03-23, 10:22 AM
Where would the bag of holding store the stuff. He just said that Planes don't exist at all in this Homebrewed setting.

You can have a portable hole or bag of holding without the outside Planes existing. You just change the portable hole/ bag of holding effect from dumping everything into the Astral Plane to just destroying everything in a 10' cube, similar to disintegrate but without the ashes. Now, if the OP says that no item like the bag of holding exists, that's a separate story. But, I didn't see anything like that in this forum.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-23, 01:54 PM
You can have a portable hole or bag of holding without the outside Planes existing. You just change the portable hole/ bag of holding effect from dumping everything into the Astral Plane to just destroying everything in a 10' cube, similar to disintegrate but without the ashes. Now, if the OP says that no item like the bag of holding exists, that's a separate story. But, I didn't see anything like that in this forum.

Here's OP saying no extra dimensional spaces means no extra dimensional storage space. Plane-shifting it won't work either, if that's your next idea.

erikun
2017-03-24, 08:56 AM
Well, alright. I guess the lack of Etherealness does matter quite a bit, so let's take a look at the creature again.

We still have the situation of it being effectively a CR13 trap, albeit one which "resets" itself and can only be "disabled" by a combat encounter. I still think that would be the most reasonable way of treating it. The tricky part is that, unlike a trap, it isn't in one place and isn't protecting anything (outside itself) and so it would be tricky to say how the party might "overcome" the challenge if they weren't specifically going out to kill the thing. And even if they are, it won't necessarily be dead.

The other concern is that, even if the charm wears off, the party might end up doing what the Formless Falsetto wanted anyways. I mean, if they suddenly shake off the charm and find themselves wandering towards a hidden dungeon, just what are most parties going to do with that information?


On the one hand, a simple bit of preparation can null the only real threat the thing presents. (Protection from Evil prevents the charm from taking effect, and the Falsetto will not be around to give any charmed commands as long as the 10-hour duration lasts.) On the other hand, DC 18 is quite difficult for most of the party even at 13th level, and you are certain to have most of the party frightened/despair before the encounter is over. I'm still inclined to stick it at CR13, not necessarily for the danger it provides, but for the absolute annoyance it must be to even fight below that. A 10th level party is not going to be happy with spending days or weeks fighting this thing, overcoming its regeneration and dealing with the melee characters continuously running away, only to get a parly amount of XP for their trouble.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-24, 11:01 AM
Well, alright. I guess the lack of Etherealness does matter quite a bit, so let's take a look at the creature again.

We still have the situation of it being effectively a CR13 trap, albeit one which "resets" itself and can only be "disabled" by a combat encounter. I still think that would be the most reasonable way of treating it. The tricky part is that, unlike a trap, it isn't in one place and isn't protecting anything (outside itself) and so it would be tricky to say how the party might "overcome" the challenge if they weren't specifically going out to kill the thing. And even if they are, it won't necessarily be dead.

The other concern is that, even if the charm wears off, the party might end up doing what the Formless Falsetto wanted anyways. I mean, if they suddenly shake off the charm and find themselves wandering towards a hidden dungeon, just what are most parties going to do with that information?


On the one hand, a simple bit of preparation can null the only real threat the thing presents. (Protection from Evil prevents the charm from taking effect, and the Falsetto will not be around to give any charmed commands as long as the 10-hour duration lasts.) On the other hand, DC 18 is quite difficult for most of the party even at 13th level, and you are certain to have most of the party frightened/despair before the encounter is over. I'm still inclined to stick it at CR13, not necessarily for the danger it provides, but for the absolute annoyance it must be to even fight below that. A 10th level party is not going to be happy with spending days or weeks fighting this thing, overcoming its regeneration and dealing with the melee characters continuously running away, only to get a parly amount of XP for their trouble.

Are you sure? At level 11 parties can end it in one round then send it sailing with gust of wind. Harm deals 110 and one-shots it, 55 if it makes its save and that will two-shot it. Disintegrate will deal 22d6 and almost kill it, and on the off chance it makes its save that 5d6 will still hurt. A fight at 11th level just goes "disintegrate", "harm", "gust of wind".

erikun
2017-03-24, 02:37 PM
Harm cannot reduce a target to below 1 HP.

Disintegrate has a flat 50% chance of not affecting it, due to incorporeality. What's more, I assume that it can't be killed when reduced to below 0 HP due to Disintegrate, which would mean the 77 damage average would be recovered from within four turns.

And the biggest problem is not that an appropriately armed party, with the appropriate party composition, which can somehow ambush it, would succeed. The problem is that the average party would have difficulty with the encounter. And the average 11th level party is likely going to include at least one (if not up to three) characters with only around +5 Will saves, against a DC 18 attack hitting everyone every round. And, they are more likely to get ambushed (or at least hit first) by the silent invisible creature than the other way around. Failing saves will at best have characters dropping their weapons and doing nothing for 100 rounds, while at worst will leave the characters charmed and fighting the rest of the party in its defense.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-24, 03:04 PM
Harm cannot reduce a target to below 1 HP.

That's only if the save is successful. Otherwise, it most definitely can and will.


Disintegrate has a flat 50% chance of not affecting it, due to incorporeality.

Disintegrate deals force damage, it is guaranteed to work on it.


What's more, I assume that it can't be killed when reduced to below 0 HP due to Disintegrate, which would mean the 77 damage average would be recovered from within four turns.

Wrong, it would knock it down to -32, which is 13 away from death. It also has regeneration 10, not 20, it would take eight turns to recover from that hit.


And the biggest problem is not that an appropriately armed party, with the appropriate party composition, which can somehow ambush it, would succeed.

"Any party with an 11th level cleric, wizard or sorcerer" is not a specific composition, and "would succeed" is not the same thing as "would one-shot it".


The problem is that the average party would have difficulty with the encounter. And the average 11th level party is likely going to include at least one (if not up to three) characters with only around +5 Will saves, against a DC 18 attack hitting everyone every round.

The ONLY one of its abilities that hits everyone and hits every round is Whispers, that only has a range of 30ft and only causes shaken. It is also a fear effect, which some party members will have huge bonuses or even outright immunity to. Its screech hits everybody, but it only does that once at the end of a fight when destroyed. All its others are single-target.


And, they are more likely to get ambushed (or at least hit first) by the silent invisible creature than the other way around. Failing saves will at best have characters dropping their weapons and doing nothing for 100 rounds, while at worst will leave the characters charmed and fighting the rest of the party in its defense.

"Dropping your weapon and doing nothing" is NOT caused by ANY of the effects it is capable of inflicting. Shaken is a minor inconvenience, despair is a somewhat stronger inconvenience, frightened causes characters to run only if it is possible and does NOT prevent them from fighting back, and charm does NOT make you fight your allies and is so easily broken it's stupid.

Why does NOBODY who plays this game know the rules? You do realize you can look this stuff up, right? That in the descriptions of ALL of those status effects it explicitly lays out that it specifically does not work that way? Why does everybody confuse "shaken" with panic? Why does everybody keep confusing "charm" with "absolute double-plus godlike mega mind-control from a bad sci-fi movie and notably not included in D&D"? Should I tack an SRD link into my signature? Would that even help? I want to know, I am at a loss.

nikkoli
2017-03-24, 04:24 PM
I'll point out that disintegrate does not have a listed damage type, so it would be more akin to Eldrich blast than force type.


A charmed character fights his former allies only if they threaten his new friend, and even then he uses the least lethal means at his disposal as long as these tactics show any possibility of success (just as he would in a fight between two actual friends).
So charm can cause the party to beat each other up, but they would most likely use non lethal means.

I'm still caught up on how its ethereal without having an ethereal plane to go to.
Small oversight it should have 4 feats as a 10 HD thing.

Also once you've dissipated it its got like 2 ac and 25 DR. What would happen if you keep assaulting it with magic or high damage weapons? Could you push it to like -500 HP to extend how long it is dissipated?

Avianmosquito
2017-03-24, 04:34 PM
So charm can cause the party to beat each other up, but they would most likely use non lethal means.

And the moment this thing casts another spell the charm breaks, so only the fight coming to a screeching halt will allow the charm to work.


I'm still caught up on how its ethereal without having an ethereal plane to go to.

The terms are largely interchangeable, like they are in every other medium that isn't D&D.


Small oversight it should have 4 feats as a 10 HD thing.

I'll add a 4th, I just couldn't think of one it could actually use.


Also once you've dissipated it its got like 2 ac and 25 DR. What would happen if you keep assaulting it with magic or high damage weapons? Could you push it to like -500 HP to extend how long it is dissipated?

You could, but it'll end up out of range pretty soon. It can still drift at 5ft/round, nothing says it can't drift straight up and something able to drift through solid objects isn't something you can contain, if you're envisioning some kind of infinite-damage contraption.

GuesssWho
2017-03-25, 07:46 AM
Funny thing, in real life schizophrenia can actually be so severe as to often prevent its victims from sleeping. Paranoia already makes it hard to sleep, and when you add on auditory hallucinations sleep sometimes becomes a monumental challenge if not an outright impossibility. As far as I know, none of these people actually die from a lack of sleep because dying of sleep deprivation isn't actually possible.

Wrong. Look up fatal familial insomnia. It's quite possible to die of insomnia, it's just that most people will never go that long.

The_Jette
2017-03-27, 09:33 AM
Depends. Knowledge checks and bardic lore may make this a "yes". Because holy **** is it well guarded. A legion means roughly 6,000 soldiers. Add on another 12,000 support staff and an equal number of civilians, and remember that this legion is mostly mid-level, many (hundreds) are high-level and some (dozens) are epic-level. They regularly defeat K'Macthia's children, the great ones it produced with It Yeek'Kal Thet, Sha'nit-Feek'It-La'Kep and Nya-Za'Thoth, and they will annihilate your party. So, can such a force exist without it being common knowledge, at least in the Otherlands? It's a great question.

So, is there any reason the party hasn't simply tracked down this legion that is guarding K'Macthia and have them deal with it? I would think they would have come up with some sort of way to defeat the figment creature. Maybe the have a prison of some sort. It just seems like these people are the experts on dealing with the guy, and they should take advantage of that.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-27, 11:05 AM
So, is there any reason the party hasn't simply tracked down this legion that is guarding K'Macthia and have them deal with it? I would think they would have come up with some sort of way to defeat the figment creature. Maybe the have a prison of some sort. It just seems like these people are the experts on dealing with the guy, and they should take advantage of that.

There's a few reasons.

1. Containing an incorporeal creature is an awful lot like drying the ocean.

2. When defeated, it just needs wind and it WILL outrun you, so following it around to keep killing it is highly impractical.

3. There's a lot of members in the Ethereal Choir and there's two million square miles they can be found in, even a legion is not enough for that.

4. The legion was not designed for mobility and lacks a significant number of light infantry.

5. The legion needs to protect the tomb, weakening their force there is not an option when failure means the release of a great old one.

6. "You want us to deplete our forces at the tomb of a betrayed god and send them into alien landscapes to do what? Protect the people of the Otherlands from doing something EVEN DUMBER than living in crazy country to begin with? Uh, no. **** 'em."

Ziegander
2017-03-28, 01:10 AM
Why does NOBODY who plays this game know the rules? You do realize you can look this stuff up, right? That in the descriptions of ALL of those status effects it explicitly lays out that it specifically does not work that way? Why does everybody confuse "shaken" with panic? Why does everybody keep confusing "charm" with "absolute double-plus godlike mega mind-control from a bad sci-fi movie and notably not included in D&D"? Should I tack an SRD link into my signature? Would that even help? I want to know, I am at a loss.


Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear)

You do realize you can look this stuff up, right? You're being an *******. Stop being an *******. You're also wrong. That's the general rule, and in 3.5, the law of the land is specific trumps general. If your fear effect doesn't say that it does not stack, then it does.

nikkoli
2017-03-28, 07:34 AM
There's a few reasons.

1. Containing an incorporeal creature is an awful lot like drying the ocean.

2. When defeated, it just needs wind and it WILL outrun you, so following it around to keep killing it is highly impractical.

3. There's a lot of members in the Ethereal Choir and there's two million square miles they can be found in, even a legion is not enough for that.

4. The legion was not designed for mobility and lacks a significant number of light infantry.

5. The legion needs to protect the tomb, weakening their force there is not an option when failure means the release of a great old one.

6. "You want us to deplete our forces at the tomb of a betrayed god and send them into alien landscapes to do what? Protect the people of the Otherlands from doing something EVEN DUMBER than living in crazy country to begin with? Uh, no. **** 'em."

1. Forcecage.
2. Forcewall.
3. 2 million square miles is quite a large area, but i would think they devote resources NEAR the tomb/s to prevent these creatures from escaping, like having a couple of wizards on had with force cages and force walls to catch the very well known pesky incorporeal things trying to start what sounds like the Apocalypse by releasing Great Old Ones.
4. Is most of it heavy infantry or phalanx or calvery type units?
5. Forcecage.
6. Bolstering the army with wizards at the tomb seems to be the best.

The_Jette
2017-03-28, 12:32 PM
There's a few reasons.

1. Containing an incorporeal creature is an awful lot like drying the ocean.

2. When defeated, it just needs wind and it WILL outrun you, so following it around to keep killing it is highly impractical.

3. There's a lot of members in the Ethereal Choir and there's two million square miles they can be found in, even a legion is not enough for that.

4. The legion was not designed for mobility and lacks a significant number of light infantry.

5. The legion needs to protect the tomb, weakening their force there is not an option when failure means the release of a great old one.

6. "You want us to deplete our forces at the tomb of a betrayed god and send them into alien landscapes to do what? Protect the people of the Otherlands from doing something EVEN DUMBER than living in crazy country to begin with? Uh, no. **** 'em."

First question: why is the "Ethereal Choir" spread out over two million square miles when the dead eldritch abomination is pinned under a specific cathedral?
Second question: wouldn't preventing the release of the great old one include containing these pesky ethereal creatures that keep trying to lure people to the tomb to release the great old one? And, thus, heading in that direction and letting them know about the pesky ethereal creature would be a service to the "Ethereal Choir", right?
Third question: in what way would bringing the pesky ethereal creature to the "Ethereal Choir" be depleting the forces at the tomb? I would think that would be the opposite, since you're preventing them from having to send out a task force to find this particular pesky ethereal creature by bringing it straight to them?

Finally, since there's apparently no way to stop this creature, as force walls don't seem to contain it, what was your purpose in introducing the thing? Do you want to force your players into releasing the eldritch abomination into the world? And, if so, why didn't you start out with that. Any other possible reason for including the unstoppable but merely pesky ethereal creature seems unlikely, as it just travels along with them pushing them to release the eldritch abomination and being a nuisance if they don't.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-28, 02:14 PM
First question: why is the "Ethereal Choir" spread out over two million square miles when the dead eldritch abomination is pinned under a specific cathedral?

Because they're looking for people to convince to free K'macthia and the legion is not going to be made to by a charm spell.


Second question: wouldn't preventing the release of the great old one include containing these pesky ethereal creatures that keep trying to lure people to the tomb to release the great old one?

If that was an efficient use of their manpower, sure. As of the moment, it's more efficient to wait at the tomb and have forces ready for the big threats, even though it means popping charmed villagers on a regular basis.


And, thus, heading in that direction and letting them know about the pesky ethereal creature would be a service to the "Ethereal Choir", right?

Uh, dude? The Ethereal Choir is the voice creatures.


Third question: in what way would bringing the pesky ethereal creature to the "Ethereal Choir" be depleting the forces at the tomb? I would think that would be the opposite, since you're preventing them from having to send out a task force to find this particular pesky ethereal creature by bringing it straight to them?

Except it isn't enough of a threat to be worth bothering with. Every couple days they have to shoot a villager. So what? They don't exactly care about these people.


Finally, since there's apparently no way to stop this creature, as force walls don't seem to contain it,

When dispersed, it is colossal and too large for a force cage. It need only disperse and the spell fails to contain it. It doesn't even need that if you're foolish enough to use a barred cage, it's a formless being and will just go between the bars.


what was your purpose in introducing the thing?

It's an enemy?


Do you want to force your players into releasing the eldritch abomination into the world?

No, they'd never manage that. That charm is just its greatest ability to disrupt the party, and makes its performance more unique.


And, if so, why didn't you start out with that. Any other possible reason for including the unstoppable but merely pesky ethereal creature seems unlikely, as it just travels along with them pushing them to release the eldritch abomination and being a nuisance if they don't.

It can't be permanently defeated, but if the party disperses it, it'll be somebody else's problem in 9+ days. It's effective enough.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-29, 12:48 AM
Jeremy just kicked me in the ****, as he does. Here's the result.

Formless Falsetto
Medium Aberration, Incorporeal, Celestial (Lesser)
Hit dice: 10d8+0 (45 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Fly 30ft
Armor Class: 14 (+1 dexterity, +3 deflection), flat-footed 13
Base attack/grapple: +7/+3
Attack: None
Full attack: None
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special attacks: Song of the Betrayed, Song of fear, Song of despair, Shocking screech
Special qualities: Ethereal, DR 5, Whispers, Tongues, Invisibility, Regeneration 10, That Which Can Eternal Lie
Abilities: Str --, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 3, Cha 16, Wis 12
Saves: Ref 4, For 3, Will 9
Skills: Perform (Sing) 6
Feats: Alertness, iron will, stealthy
Environment: Otherlands
Organization: Individual
Challenge rating: 12
Advancement: N/A

Ethereal (Ex): The formless falsetto is ethereal and incorporeal. It cannot physically harm corporeal entities, and cannot be physically harmed by them. They may combat incorporeal entities normally, and may be attacked with ghost touch weapons, positive energy, negative energy and force. Magic and energy-based attacks have a 50% chance to affect them.

(So yes, while this creature does have attacks, they only affect other ethereal entities. It may beat up the ghost in your attic, though as hopelessly weak as its attacks are even that isn't likely, but it can't hurt anything corporeal.)

DR 5/--

Whispers (Ex): When within 30ft of a formless falsetto, any creature susceptible to mind-affecting spells hears otherworldly falsetto mutterings in their head, causing them to be come shaken for 5d6 rounds unless they succeed a will save with a DC of 18. If the target is already shaken, they become frightened. A listener who succeeds their saving throw is immune to Whispers for 24 hours. The save DC is charisma-based.

Invisibility (Ex): The formless falsetto is a formless, transparent mass and cannot be seen. I am not going to copy+paste the entire ruleset on visible creatures, you know how invisibility works for ethereal entities.

Regeneration (Ex): The formless falsetto never takes lethal damage from an attack, and regenerates 10 hit points each round. The formless falsetto is immune to death effects, and even a coup de grace or failed save against massive damage will only deal nonlethal damage equal to its maximum hit points (45).

That Which Can Eternal Lie (Ex): The formless falsetto cannot be slain, but reaching a total amount of non-lethal damage equal to twice its maximum hit points (90hp) will force it to dissipate, expanding to colossal size. When dissipated, the formless falsetto's DR rises to 25, but it loses its dexterity and deflection bonus to AC and gains a -8 to AC from its size. The formless falsetto drifts at 5ft/round until it finds wind, and is carried at the speed and in the direction of the wind until it condenses. While dissipated, it only recovers 10 hit points per day, and will not condense again until it recovers to full hit points.

Dispersal: The formless falsetto may disperse to colossal size at will, breaking out of force cages but dealing damage to itself equal to twice its maximum HP (90).

Tongues (Ex): The formless falsetto speaks and understands all languages.

Song of the Betrayed (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a pleading song to a single listener within 30ft to free it from the Tomb of K'Macthia in the Otherlands of western Sohei. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or become charmed for 10 hours. Once charmed, the listener is subject to these pleas as if they were made with the spell "charm person" or "charm monster", and normal rules apply.

Song of Fear (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a chaotic, lurching song that strikes fear into a single listener within 30ft. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or become shaken for 10 minutes and their immunity to Whispers, if present, is revoked for one round. If the target is already shaken, they become frightened. A listener that doesn't speak at least one language cannot understand the lyrics and gains a +4 on their saving throw. This replaces the shaken effect from the formless falsetto's whispers.

Song of Despair (Ex): The formless falsetto may, as a standard action, telepathically sing a sweeping, tragic song that brings a single listener to tears. The listener must succeed a will save with a DC of 18 or be inflicted with crushing despair, as the spell, for 10 minutes. A listener that doesn't speak at least one language cannot understand the lyrics and gains a +4 on their saving throw.

Shocking Screech (Ex): If the formless falsetto is forced to disperse, its last action is to emit an ear-splitting psychic scream that rings in the minds of all listeners within 30ft. All listeners must make a will save with a DC of 18 or receive 1d6 intelligence damage.

Durzan
2017-04-03, 07:59 AM
Jeremy just kicked me in the ****, as he does. Here's the result.

Ha ha ha ha ha.

noob
2017-04-03, 01:45 PM
If he is force caged in the cube version of the spell he can not outgrow the cage unless he use rules different from the ones of nearly all the size increasing spells or if he have enough strength to break forcewalls(with epic checks since the spells says that you have to use break checks against the objects that restrain your growth).(for metamorphosis it is much weirder I do not know how it would work if you did it in a forcecage)
You should probably write that his size changing ability is similar to no other(for example say that lack of space is not a problem for it).
(unless you are like me and always interprets the rules in the weirdest and most favorable to the gm way)

Avianmosquito
2017-04-03, 07:48 PM
If he is force caged in the cube version of the spell he can not outgrow the cage unless he use rules different from the ones of nearly all the size increasing spells or if he have enough strength to break forcewalls(with epic checks since the spells says that you have to use break checks against the objects that restrain your growth).(for metamorphosis it is much weirder I do not know how it would work if you did it in a forcecage)
You should probably write that his size changing ability is similar to no other(for example say that lack of space is not a problem for it).
(unless you are like me and always interprets the rules in the weirdest and most favorable to the gm way)

Even if this didn't work, which I think is why Jeremy added a "yes it does" ability, it would just disperse and wait out the duration of the force cage. Once the force cage runs out, it'll be colossal.

ijon
2017-04-04, 01:46 AM
wall of force can be permanency'd, and its minimum size is 90 square feet

that can easily be used to make a 9'x9' cube, enough to contain it as a medium creature, and some clever baiting (it wouldn't need to be that clever, you're dealing with something with 3 INT), wham blam it's trapped, time to track down the others

two 12th-level wizards could set up the six walls in three rounds as two 13th-level wizards permanency them in six rounds, and while 7500xp for each is a hefty cost I think this is important enough to warrant it

as for keeping it in place, the falsetto itself isn't immune to mind-affecting abilities, so just hit it with charm monster and tell it to stay still for a bit

edit: also I notice that you only specified breaking out of force cages, but let's say you change that to bypass all force effects containing it - no big deal, just make a bigger box, and use some handy dandy thought bottles to recoup the lost XP

edit2: or hell, charm an allip to drop the falsetto's wisdom to 0, or assign a wizard to slap it down with shivering touch once a day, or whatever. point is, it can still be stopped, similarly to how you'd stop other "unkillable" beings.

nikkoli
2017-04-04, 07:30 AM
Wait, you asked "how do you beat this?" then when we hoge poged an answer you gave it a special ability that totally ignores that?

Avianmosquito
2017-04-04, 08:27 AM
Wait, you asked "how do you beat this?" then when we hoge poged an answer you gave it a special ability that totally ignores that?

I didn't ask that. Wrong thread.

nikkoli
2017-04-04, 08:30 AM
Right right, this is the CR thread. An immunity like that that only stops high level stuff would probably boost the CR by 1 from without it. the projected was ~11-12 right? since it can just at will disperse itself and then destroy force cages, and probably force walls, id say that would boost it up to ~12-13.

Avianmosquito
2017-04-04, 08:56 AM
Right right, this is the CR thread. An immunity like that that only stops high level stuff would probably boost the CR by 1 from without it. the projected was ~11-12 right? since it can just at will disperse itself and then destroy force cages, and probably force walls, id say that would boost it up to ~12-13.

Doesn't it help that it half-"kills" itself to do that? Come to think of it, fully "killing" itself would make more sense. It disperses at -45, have it deal 90 self-damage. I'll change that.

nikkoli
2017-04-04, 09:27 AM
Right, but it still doesn't die and go away, at -45 it has to just chill in the wind and reform. 9 days to an immortal idea creature isn't a very long time. What happens if it is reduced to 0 con? Since it has a con score it's alive, and so if it's con score is reduced to 0 it's no longer alive, because regeneration doesn't work without a con score or if dead via non HP damage.
Wait, wouldn't disintegrate just destroy it if it reduced it to 0 hp?

RatElemental
2017-04-04, 12:27 PM
Another point related to the 3 Int, if ray of stupidity exists in your world someone only needs to roll a 2 on the damage roll to put the thing into a coma for a whole day. They only need to hit it twice to definitely knock it out, all with a second level spell.

Avianmosquito
2017-04-04, 03:58 PM
Right, but it still doesn't die and go away, at -45 it has to just chill in the wind and reform. 9 days to an immortal idea creature isn't a very long time. What happens if it is reduced to 0 con? Since it has a con score it's alive, and so if it's con score is reduced to 0 it's no longer alive, because regeneration doesn't work without a con score or if dead via non HP damage.
Wait, wouldn't disintegrate just destroy it if it reduced it to 0 hp?

Ask a tarrasque about those. Or read the listing here.


Another point related to the 3 Int, if ray of stupidity exists in your world someone only needs to roll a 2 on the damage roll to put the thing into a coma for a whole day. They only need to hit it twice to definitely knock it out, all with a second level spell.

50% miss chance and temporary, but yes.

nikkoli
2017-04-04, 05:04 PM
Regeneration (Ex): The formless falsetto never takes lethal damage from an attack, and regenerates 10 hit points each round. The formless falsetto is immune to death effects, and even a coup de grace or failed save against massive damage will only deal nonlethal damage equal to its maximum hit points (45).

Nothing here makes it immune to being killed with con damage.

Regeneration
Creatures with this extraordinary ability recover from wounds quickly and can even regrow or reattach severed body parts. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage, and the creature automatically cures itself of nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the creature’s entry.
Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.
Creatures with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached.
Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.
An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
Bolded is why con 10 con damage would destroy the falceto unless it has the terrasque regeneration clause.
The terrasque on the other hand is immune to ability damage and specifically calls out that it will regenerate from it's disintegrated ashes.

Also I'd put the CR at 12 because of its near indistructibility, number of HD and how it can cause issues for the party.

Avianmosquito
2017-04-04, 05:28 PM
Nothing here makes it immune to being killed with con damage.

Death by running out of constitution is a death effect. So is a coup de gras or massive damage, they're only mentioned because ordinarily celestials ARE vulnerable to those. This thing specifically says it cannot die in the description, too.


Also I'd put the CR at 12 because of its near indistructibility, number of HD and how it can cause issues for the party.

Conveniently, that's the number Jeremy gave it.

nikkoli
2017-04-04, 05:42 PM
Con damage isn't necessarily a death effect. By that logic con damage poison is a death effect so they would be immune to that?

Avianmosquito
2017-04-04, 05:50 PM
Con damage isn't necessarily a death effect. By that logic con damage poison is a death effect so they would be immune to that?

Con damage isn't a death effect, dying from it is.

Oh, here's a good weapon to use on it, added in the Aelsif sourcebook:

The freikugein is a seemingly ordinary musket ball (this may also read "pistol ball"), recognizable only by its blued metal. When fired, a freikugein unneringly hits its target, regardless of their armour class and any existing miss chances, even if the target is incorporeal or has total concealment. The freikugein can only travel a distance equal to a single range, and returns to its user upon reaching this distance, landing harmlessly in their hand or at their feat. The freikugein still requires powder, effectively consuming a single round of ammunition with each shot and gaining the enhancement of the round used.

If grabbed with snatch arrows, the freikugein comes to a complete stop and cannot return to its user. If it hits for 0 damage, it also stops and falls to the ground. A freikugein has 5 hit points and a hardness of 10. If used with the overpenetration feat, the line requirement is removed, allowing it to hit any target. It can even strike same target, though to do that it must make a 15-foot loop. (The overpenetration feat allows you to hit multiple targets with a firearm, normally only if they are in a line and with an increasing attack and damage penalty for each target. It stops if the shot misses or hits for 0 damage.)

There are only seven freikugein in the world. A recurring myth exists, claiming one to be possessed by the dark spirit, demon or evil deity that created them, but the bullets are the work of a gnomish enchanter and it is only possessed by him in that he was buried with it.


Gold star to anybody who can identify where this is from.

nikkoli
2017-04-04, 09:27 PM
I am confused why dieing because you ran out of con is a death effect.
Also, no idea, but that is a rather interesting bullet, its like the Raptor Arrows (?) from MIC I believe.

Avianmosquito
2017-04-05, 12:46 AM
I am confused why dieing because you ran out of con is a death effect.

For the same reason a coup de gras or massive damage is. Either way it doesn't matter since the creature flat-out can't die.


That Which Can Eternal Lie (Ex): The formless falsetto cannot be slain, but reaching a total amount of non-lethal damage equal to twice its maximum hit points (90hp) will force it to dissipate, expanding to colossal size. When dissipated, the formless falsetto's DR rises to 25, but it loses its dexterity and deflection bonus to AC and gains a -8 to AC from its size. The formless falsetto drifts at 5ft/round until it finds wind, and is carried at the speed and in the direction of the wind until it condenses. While dissipated, it only recovers 10 hit points per day, and will not condense again until it recovers to full hit points.

Death just straight-up can't happen to it. End of story.


Also, no idea, but that is a rather interesting bullet, its like the Raptor Arrows (?) from MIC I believe.

It's based off the bullets of the same name from the Freishutz folk tales, inspiration for the opera Der Freischutz by Carl Maria von Weber. Such a thing also premeired in the Hellsing manga and Hellsing Ultimate where a minor villain uses an alarmingly overpowered version of the Freikugein in battle. [Historical and artistic tangent redacted.] These four depictions all factored into mine. I hadn't heard of raptor arrows until you mentioned it.