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View Full Version : I have an awesome group of players! And that's terrible.



The Fury
2017-03-21, 06:36 PM
It's a weird problem to be sure, but I've been so used to having a certain types of players that I'm just not sure with how to deal with other types I wasn't even sure existed. Not to say the players I'm used to were bad, just... flawed. Because of those flaws I'm used to coming up with plans to compensate for them, I expect some players to min-max, I expect some players to ignore NPCs and plot threads, I expect players to abdicate decision making to someone else. I can make monsters tougher if I have a min-maxxer, I can add more plot threads and more NPCs until someone in the party finds them interesting, I can keep deliberately asking the player that doesn't want to make a decision to weigh in.

But when I have a party where everyone is engaged? Willing to follow up on every plot thread? No one is min-maxxing? I really have no idea of what to do. I worry that my usual style is actually confusing for them. Just as an example, two of the three players in my group write fiction and understand conservation of detail so to them having multiple plot threads must mean that I expect them to follow up on all of them. Otherwise, why are they there? The discussions that this group has in character as well... they look at what was presented in such detail, trying to pin down NPC motivations, evaluating which villain presents the greatest threat and such. It makes me think that this group deserves a better story.

Maybe there's not really a solution here and I needed to vent. Anyway, thanks for reading.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-03-21, 06:49 PM
Talk to them? Lay out your DMing style, and ask what they'd like to see you do differently?

Braininthejar2
2017-03-21, 06:56 PM
yea, you need to explain it to them before it becomes a serious issue - I've been in a group that ran into serious problems trying to follow more leads then they had the time to, and failing most of them as the result of spreading their attention. That was frustrating.

Anonymouswizard
2017-03-21, 07:13 PM
There are a couple of solutions, particularly to the 'multiple plot threads' problem. I echo talking to your players, just so that you're all on the same page. This will likely mean you present less plot threads and the players get a choice, but it can vary.

I also suggest reducing the number of plot threads you present to this group to a number you can roughly run in parallel anyway. I've seen everything from one plot thread at a time, to a major campaign plot thread with 'plots of the week' to spice it up, to two or more full time plots running at exactly the same time (which is hard to do, and even harder to do if the players can affect multiple plot threads in a single scene).

(As a side note I dislike the conservation of detail even in stories, most writers don't follow it anywhere near to extremes. The best stories I've read have the occasional comment or situation that could cause another plot thread, but doesn't because it's just not important enough, it just feels more like real life.)

RazorChain
2017-03-21, 10:01 PM
Just let the plot thread run to their conclusion while they are doing other stuff. I always have multiple things going on in my campaign and those things don't just wait until the PC's solve them. Some will escalate or de-escalate and some will be solved by others.

Now stop worrying and learn to love the bomb :smallsmile:

Kitten Champion
2017-03-21, 11:02 PM
I have players who like to get the most out of the prepared material and collectively try to build upon it, which is great really. However, part of my general style is that the world's time moves on regardless of their characters' presence and choosing one direction for their party means there will be consequences for their non-intervention in the others.

This way they understand that their choices have meaning, that the material I didn't use isn't being wasted but rather sublimated into their story after a fashion, and that they can't achieve 100% completion going in no matter what.

Also speeds things up.

mikeejimbo
2017-03-22, 12:01 AM
Some plot threads will advance on their own, differently from if the players had intervened. Some will tie into other threads, and they'll find the connections. And still others... won't go anywhere. (The castle that has been abandoned for a hundred years? Probably still going to be there next week.) I'd suggest using a good mix of these. Show the players they certainly can't - and aren't expected to - take on everything, but that the things they don't do might also have an affect on the world. They'll realize quickly that that's why they're being presented with options - they can pursue the goals they like, but their choices may have consequences. Not even necessarily bad ones. Maybe if they intervene to get the starcrossed lovers together, both of them end up dead, but if they don't, he just marries Rosaline instead and has a perfectly lovely life.

Stealth Marmot
2017-03-22, 07:12 AM
Fake it.

It sounds weird, but the reality is that every DM will be caught in a situation where they don't have a backstory for a plot thread because they didnt expect the players to follow it, or haven't finished it yet and the players went through the material quicker than expected. In those situations, you need to make stuff up on the spot or be deliberately vague. So you will have to fake it until you can figure out those plot points and situations later.

They investigate a suspicious NPC, and you haven't decided what to do with him yet? Have him leave the town mysteriously. The players investigate his house? They don't find anything definitive. Next week, have the NPC come back and have the players find out he has a secret hideout that is nowhere near his house, and inside he (fill in the blank).

It's a skill all DMs need to develop and it only comes with experience in BSing throughout your life like I do. Make placeholders, be vague, be non-committal but indicate you'll get back to it. Return to points they investigated a session or 2 ago or even longer. Deflect, then backtrack later when you have time to write it up.

DMs might put on a good poker face but behind it at all times I assure you, they are thinking "CRAPCRAPCRAPCRAPCRAPCRAPCRAPCRAP I GOT NUTHIN!"

Then they deflect and come to it later and the players are wondering how they can be so genius when in fact....they're BSing.

Beleriphon
2017-03-22, 10:06 AM
A favourite tactic of mine when the players keeping asking questions, or pulling at threads that don't go anywhere is to look them dead in the eye and ask "What do you think it means?" And then just go with that, done judiciously it takes the burden off of you, and it invests the players since they're right!

theasl
2017-03-22, 04:22 PM
A favourite tactic of mine when the players keeping asking questions, or pulling at threads that don't go anywhere is to look them dead in the eye and ask "What do you think it means?" And then just go with that, done judiciously it takes the burden off of you, and it invests the players since they're right!

Err, I'd guess that that's exactly the problem. The players are finding meaning in everything, even without being prompted.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-03-22, 04:58 PM
If your players want to pursue every plot thread then just don't let them. There's no problem in making it so that there just isn't enough time to follow up on everything. Picking and choosing what matters to them is great, and the stuff they didn't choose can get worse and give the feel of a living world.

And if your players speculate about something that's going on that sounds cooler than what you had planned, just steal it.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-03-22, 05:12 PM
Dungeon World actually has some really good advice for organizing the world you can totally steal for other games.

Starting on page 48. https://i.yuki.la/tg/1460761192066.pdf

Zilong
2017-03-22, 05:38 PM
in BSing throughout your life like I do.

Weird, I thought learning to BS was basically the entire point of high school and of most undergrad classes.

Mith
2017-03-22, 05:56 PM
If your players want to pursue every plot thread then just don't let them. There's no problem in making it so that there just isn't enough time to follow up on everything. Picking and choosing what matters to them is great, and the stuff they didn't choose can get worse and give the feel of a living world.

And if your players speculate about something that's going on that sounds cooler than what you had planned, just steal it.

I have learned not to try my hands at deception. The party is better at decieving themselves then I will ever be.

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-22, 06:33 PM
I think RPGs can function with anti-climax. In a game I ran, a man with a dangerous reputation for scheming and political intrigue turned out to be senile...Because communication was difficult, so the information the PC had obtained was a decade or two out of date, and because his sons were perpetuating rumors. In another case, a suspected being of power that was VERY carefully approached turned out to be a mere mortal who started screaming in terror at the sight of the PC.

It can wrap up a plot point meant for fleshing out a setting quickly, but still lead to additional information or a humorous moment. It also shows that not all threads are equal, and a part of the game is knowing what to pursue without punishing players.

By the way, where do your players reside? I need to know for...Reasons. Reasons completely unrelated to kidnapping.

weckar
2017-03-23, 03:59 AM
If confusion about too much detail and options are your main issue, declare a sandbox. That would universally tell them that it should be safe not to go after everything.

Pugwampy
2017-03-24, 04:30 AM
If they go nutz about your details specifics , lower the detail and specifics output .

If they insist on going in a direction you dont really care about . First point em to so and so place and tell em the funs over there dudes .
If they insist , say yes . fake it and give em something boring reminding them the fun was over there .

Other options is if your cool fairy dungeon <extra pink> idea was in say the west but they want to go east put your cool dungeon in the east pretending it was always there .

Your group sounds like a really awesome bunch of folks btw .
You have players what most of us DM,s want . I have no pity for you .

Dappershire
2017-03-24, 05:41 AM
some will be solved by others.

Always fun. PCs following up on a potent portent, following the trail, getting to the cavern entrance....just as some other adventuring party comes waltzing out. Ragged, tired, but laughing, punching each other comradely. "Sorry, all looted. Better luck next time, fellaz. Charbek, you fumbled that last charge, ale is on you...."

Mendicant
2017-03-24, 09:08 AM
PC's speculating about NPC motivations, out loud and in front of you, is a fantastic benefit. They're telling you what they find interesting *and* feeding you your lines at the same time.

If you already have plans for an NPC, feel free to stick with them. If you don't, then actively adopt the best idea you hear discussed 4/5 times, and aggressively flout expectations the 5th time. Some of my nost memorable NPC's started their lives as nonentities who wouldn't even get unique portraits in a CRPG, but a funny inflection or a stray remark and suddenly the players are all over Nameless Party Guest #2 and he gets a battlefield promotion to recurring character or major antagonist.

Beleriphon
2017-03-24, 12:19 PM
PC's speculating about NPC motivations, out loud and in front of you, is a fantastic benefit. They're telling you what they find interesting *and* feeding you your lines at the same time.

If you already have plans for an NPC, feel free to stick with them. If you don't, then actively adopt the best idea you hear discussed 4/5 times, and aggressively flout expectations the 5th time. Some of my nost memorable NPC's started their lives as nonentities who wouldn't even get unique portraits in a CRPG, but a funny inflection or a stray remark and suddenly the players are all over Nameless Party Guest #2 and he gets a battlefield promotion to recurring character or major antagonist.

This was more my point. If the players are latching on to something, they think its interesting. It's instant feedback for the DM really and there is nothing wrong with confirming the players' assumptions most of the time.

Mendicant
2017-03-24, 11:21 PM
For sure. A lot of the time their assumptions are really reasonable inferences from other stuff you've done anyway.

"Wait, I thought Gembrel aristocrats considered axes peasant weaponry! Why's is this "baronet" carrying one? Something's up with this guy, we should tail him."

"...Yes, that is in fact a thing I said in passing two months ago and definitely did not forget just now when I made this guy up on the spot, nosirree. He doesn't see you and ducks into an alcove where he has a terse, whispered conversation with the ambassador. Something's up. "

usorer
2017-03-25, 01:05 PM
Haha, first time to hear this kind of problem. I guess you might end up learning a new GM style. Maybe increase the random elements in the world?