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Anderlith
2017-03-21, 11:07 PM
So Im designing my own mythos/setting, it consists of a planet, surrounnded by seven moons, one of which acts like a sun. The moons are the other planes in my cosmology. I have a handful of gods, all called Lords & Ladies of their respective purview, that way every culture/language can have a different na,e & outlook on the god.

They are
Lord of Night
Lord of Stone
Lord of the Tempest
Lord of Sunlight
Lord of Battle
Lord of Masks
Lord of the Sands
Lord Ascendant
Lady of the Fields
Lady of Letters
Lady of Waters
Lady of Flame
Lady of Winters
Lady of Shadows
Silver Lady
Beastmother
Yet to be decided lord of devils or demons
Yes to be decided lady of devils or demons

So my idea is that the Lord of Night represents inevidability, & entropy, he is a Hades like character & is the oldest god. He ruled the Vastness, then some other gods came. The last god to come was the Lord of Sunlight who showed up & brought light to the world, & became the chief deity. I want it to be that he didnt fight the Lord of Night for rulership, the Lord of Night simply didnt care & let the Lord of Sunlight take over. My biggest problem is coming up with origins for demons & devils, id like to have a bit of corruption but I dont know how to go about it. Also, most god myths have the pantheon battling something else & deposing of them (titans, vanir, etc). I dont know what i could put in without bloating the setting (I already fear my players not understaning my new gods) im at a loss to generate origins for some of them & finding a place for demons, devils & such, also need a reason for the Lord of Sunlight to appear. Do you guys have any suggestions?

(Im willing to answer any setting questions if you need more info)

2D8HP
2017-03-21, 11:25 PM
Go Greek... sort of.

Earth and Chaos begat monsters and gods.

The Gods are those who took over, Devils and Demons are their disinherited cousins.

NichG
2017-03-22, 06:11 AM
I think the answer has to start from asking what makes the gods necessary to the setting in the first place, and then asking in turn what kinds of things might be opposed to those necessary things getting done.

For example, a common theme is that the gods are basically glorified pioneers who built a homestead in the midst of the void/chaos/un-being/the dark/what have you, in turn allowing things like 'mortals' to exist without being immediately snuffed out. Which in turn suggests that there might be things which the gods displaced in building their little settlement, which might want the land/conceptual allocation of reality back for their own uses. Therefore, demons.

Another theme has to do with the tension between the existence of beings much more powerful than people, but which must make some sort of compromise so that people are actually meaningful - free will, sin, what have you. Demons/evil/etc then represents the inevitable price of the compromise with their own omnipotence that gods must make in order for mortals to actually have a part to play at all.

Another theme is a dualistic us-vs-them from the beginning of time. There are titans/frost giants/demons/whatever which oppose and have always opposed the gods/forces of light/etc, and those whole day-to-day existence of the mortal world is constantly on the knife edge of a cosmic detente.

Another theme has to do with betrayal - there was a system in place ('perfect', 'good enough', 'actually quite bad' depending on your point of view). But then of course there was that one god that just had to be a critic.

Anonymouswizard
2017-03-22, 09:43 AM
It really depends on your setting's metaphysics, what the gods are, and how everything works. Demons could just be minor gods/spirits with magical power but not too powerful.

The real question is where do demons fit in? Do you need demons? I have a setting* with none, they aren't really needed (although the existence of gods is also up in the air in that setting), and other settings where they're the main supernatural element. Very rarely do I definitively know how everything interacts, only what people believe, and tend to leave 'demon' and 'devil' as in-setting tends. Nobody thinks of themselves as evil, even gods.

Therefore I suggest you ask yourself what the mortals in your setting hate and fear. The servants of the gods that represent that are called demons in the setting.

There are other ways to do it, including 'demons and devils are servants of the objective evil', but the above works well.

* Many settings if you count my Science Fiction ones, but I'm focusing on fantasy here.

Thinker
2017-03-22, 01:41 PM
I think the answer has to start from asking what makes the gods necessary to the setting in the first place, and then asking in turn what kinds of things might be opposed to those necessary things getting done.

For example, a common theme is that the gods are basically glorified pioneers who built a homestead in the midst of the void/chaos/un-being/the dark/what have you, in turn allowing things like 'mortals' to exist without being immediately snuffed out. Which in turn suggests that there might be things which the gods displaced in building their little settlement, which might want the land/conceptual allocation of reality back for their own uses. Therefore, demons.

Another theme has to do with the tension between the existence of beings much more powerful than people, but which must make some sort of compromise so that people are actually meaningful - free will, sin, what have you. Demons/evil/etc then represents the inevitable price of the compromise with their own omnipotence that gods must make in order for mortals to actually have a part to play at all.

Another theme is a dualistic us-vs-them from the beginning of time. There are titans/frost giants/demons/whatever which oppose and have always opposed the gods/forces of light/etc, and those whole day-to-day existence of the mortal world is constantly on the knife edge of a cosmic detente.

Another theme has to do with betrayal - there was a system in place ('perfect', 'good enough', 'actually quite bad' depending on your point of view). But then of course there was that one god that just had to be a critic.

This is an excellent list. I would add the theme of the alien. Not necessarily malevolent or benevolent, but something beyond our understanding. Many stories about fey, angels, and what have you are stories about beings that have a different morality and outlook on life. With this model, demons wouldn't necessarily be opposed to gods or humans, but would have their own objectives and their own morality that would make them occasional allies or enemies.

Thinking more about it, there's also the idea of competing races. In one religion, djinn were created alongside humans and tend to oppose humans, though not necessarily other divine beings. With this view, demons could be a construct of the gods that are opposed to humans because humans are favored or because humans and djinn often have opposing goals. In this case, the gods might not want to be drawn into conflict between their creations (and you could use this for any number of other foes - Why don't the gods help against the orcs? Because the gods made the orcs, too!). This also leaves open the possibility of later introducing something from beyond the gods' influence that the gods might actively oppose - outsiders from another universe, another pantheon, or another generation of deities intent on usurping authority.

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-22, 02:49 PM
1) Always blame the mortals! They go around, with all of their sinning and then are surprised when demons appear. Well, good job breaking it, mortal! Devils can be people who conquered their own sinful minds by becoming their own demons.

If mortals are the origin of both demons and devils, it doesn't mean that the gods messed up and created them. The gods are blameless, faultless and will guide mortals onto the path of NOT MAKING MORE DEMONS FFS.

2) As for titans/vanir...Why not the Lord of Battles making them? I mean, he needs SOMETHING to battle. Titans and Jotun (and some Vanir, like Freyr's father whose name escapes me at the moment) were tied to nature and the elements. So he made opponents out of mountains and stuff, giving him an army of demigods to do battle with. Or he just popped them out of himself, because gods can do parthenogenesis. Or he made himself a woman just to get pregnant, he's just that determined to get something to fight. Continuing the whole theme of 'stealing from the real world' you could have it that as these demigods got more worship or recognition or even won battles against demons, they got stronger.

If you wish to make the distinction more complex, have it so some of them married the gods themselves. It could be that as they got stronger they were rewarded with a god's hand in marriage. Or they used the laws of the gods against them, such as when Skaldi came by Odin's hall to discuss some matters. Or another god step in and suggest marriage as a way to end wars that were too destructive or to gain more allies from the gods SOMEONE just had to make. They could have daughters and sons that represent aspects of their own domain, so you don't have to think of new domains. Such as the Lord of Stone having a daughter associated with a particular type of gemstone for instance.

I also suggest mixing up the genders a bit. Except for the Lady of Water and Fire, things are a bit...Stereotypical. Unless you think the setting will be improved by this (a strong emphasis on the gods being traditional or the like), consider mixing it up a bit.

EvilCookie
2017-03-22, 04:03 PM
I want it to be that he didnt fight the Lord of Night for rulership, the Lord of Night simply didnt care & let the Lord of Sunlight take over. My biggest problem is coming up with origins for demons & devils, id like to have a bit of corruption but I dont know how to go about it.

Perhaps this could even be the answer.
Demons and devils could be servants of the Lord of Sunlight and the Lord of Night that decided to fight. They saw the threat of the other deity and decided to combat the acceptance of the influence of the "evil" opposite deity.

Anderlith
2017-03-22, 04:24 PM
I think the answer has to start from asking what makes the gods necessary to the setting in the first place, and then asking in turn what kinds of things might be opposed to those necessary things getting done.

For example, a common theme is that the gods are basically glorified pioneers who built a homestead in the midst of the void/chaos/un-being/the dark/what have you, in turn allowing things like 'mortals' to exist without being immediately snuffed out. Which in turn suggests that there might be things which the gods displaced in building their little settlement, which might want the land/conceptual allocation of reality back for their own uses. Therefore, demons.

Another theme has to do with the tension between the existence of beings much more powerful than people, but which must make some sort of compromise so that people are actually meaningful - free will, sin, what have you. Demons/evil/etc then represents the inevitable price of the compromise with their own omnipotence that gods must make in order for mortals to actually have a part to play at all.

Another theme is a dualistic us-vs-them from the beginning of time. There are titans/frost giants/demons/whatever which oppose and have always opposed the gods/forces of light/etc, and those whole day-to-day existence of the mortal world is constantly on the knife edge of a cosmic detente.

Another theme has to do with betrayal - there was a system in place ('perfect', 'good enough', 'actually quite bad' depending on your point of view). But then of course there was that one god that just had to be a critic.

In my setting the Lords & Ladies are manifestations/impowered "mortals" that embody a dynamic concept of the world. That's why they dont have offical names. The Lord of Battle exists because war & conquest & champions & tactitians exist. Whether he was the first real warrior in history & thus became powerful in that aspect, or was made wholecloth from the aether & taught war to mankind is up to players & cultures to decide. It could even be both. I'm trying to make my myths hazy yet give the gods a job to do outside just existing, stewarding existance through their purview. As in, the Lord of Sunlight would die if something happened to the sun (Brightmoon) In my setting there used to be a Lord of the Wilds, & humans & plants & animal in his purview got along. Then he was murdered by the Beastmother, who absorbed his aspect & now animals & mankind don't have that same connection. Its also why rangers/druids are slightly different than clerics.

It really depends on your setting's metaphysics, what the gods are, and how everything works. Demons could just be minor gods/spirits with magical power but not too powerful.

The real question is where do demons fit in? Do you need demons? I have a setting* with none, they aren't really needed (although the existence of gods is also up in the air in that setting), and other settings where they're the main supernatural element. Very rarely do I definitively know how everything interacts, only what people believe, and tend to leave 'demon' and 'devil' as in-setting tends. Nobody thinks of themselves as evil, even gods.

Therefore I suggest you ask yourself what the mortals in your setting hate and fear. The servants of the gods that represent that are called demons in the setting.

There are other ways to do it, including 'demons and devils are servants of the objective evil', but the above works well.

* Many settings if you count my Science Fiction ones, but I'm focusing on fantasy here.

The reason for including demons & devils is that i want to include everything from the monster manuals & character options as i can or with minimal refluffing. I also feel that i need a corruption aspect, a godlike being that fell, or was twisted & now does the same to others




Snip

This also leaves open the possibility of later introducing something from beyond the gods' influence that the gods might actively oppose - outsiders from another universe, another pantheon, or another generation of deities intent on usurping authority.
So in my world humans & dragons have been around since the begining, the gods made chosen races by changing humans or perhaps forming from wholecloth, but structured after humans.
Sun Elves are from Lord of Sunlight
Sea Elves from Lady of Waters
Orcs are from the Beastmother
Giants & somewhat dwarves are from Lord of Stone, etc

Talking about including alien outsiders to the pantheon,
That is why i am considering having Titans/cthulhu creatures, perhaps they were titanic old ones that ruled before the gods came. If they are ageless horrible powerful things, then the Lord of Night comes, who embodies entropy, it might drive them off or create a bubble, in which humanity it sheltered.



Snip


Some of the gods are sons & daughters of others. The Lord of Sunlight is the father of the Lady of Flame & the Lord of the Tempest, Lady of Letters is the daughter of the two psychopomps, Lord of the Sands, & Silver Lady. The Lord of Stone & the Lady of the Fields are brother/sister, etc. I don't really feel the need to genderswap any of the gods simply to shake things up. The sun in most cultures is masculine, & farmland/earth is feminine, I don't feel the need to go "surprise the chief deity of killing folks is a girl, & the god of childbirth is a dude" not that it wouldn't make things interesting, but unless i feel a need for something to be different there is no reason to make it different for differents sake. Also the Lady of Flame is kinda based of Bridgette & Calypso/ the Lady of the Lake, so they aren't that unique.

NichG
2017-03-22, 09:48 PM
In my setting the Lords & Ladies are manifestations/impowered "mortals" that embody a dynamic concept of the world. That's why they dont have offical names. The Lord of Battle exists because war & conquest & champions & tactitians exist. Whether he was the first real warrior in history & thus became powerful in that aspect, or was made wholecloth from the aether & taught war to mankind is up to players & cultures to decide. It could even be both. I'm trying to make my myths hazy yet give the gods a job to do outside just existing, stewarding existance through their purview. As in, the Lord of Sunlight would die if something happened to the sun (Brightmoon) In my setting there used to be a Lord of the Wilds, & humans & plants & animal in his purview got along. Then he was murdered by the Beastmother, who absorbed his aspect & now animals & mankind don't have that same connection. Its also why rangers/druids are slightly different than clerics.

Demons and devils could be the result of a mortal starting to become an embodiment of something, but then that thing 'dying' halfway through - either from the mortal physically dying during the process, or by the mortal reflexively using the power of the embodiment to actually attempt to end the concept (committing conceptual suicide, as it were). For example, the mantle of the Lord of Battle falls on a warrior poet who is the world's greatest warrior, but who lived his life fighting in order to end war. Upon becoming the embodiment of battle, his desire for all war to end becomes an actual action he can take, and 'Battle' as a concept briefly causes itself to cease to exist, thus paradoxically removing the power to do so. So the mortal gets stuck in a halfway state - no longer mortal, but bound to a gradually decomposing half-formed divinity.

It's probably uncommon for big things like Battle or Sun, but presumably all the time there are new concepts being invented all over the world, and maybe only a handful make it over the hump to actually become proper Lords and Ladies. The rest get stuck in that halfway state - mortal enough that the death of the concept didn't kill them, but divine enough that they can't break free of the conceptual world. Presumably the Lords & Ladies could kill the half-formed creatures and absorb that power, but it may be associations they don't want (I mean, who wants to be god of the Sun, Valor, and Self-Heating Instant Noodle Cups)

Anderlith
2017-03-22, 10:06 PM
Demons and devils could be the result of a mortal starting to become an embodiment of something, but then that thing 'dying' halfway through - either from the mortal physically dying during the process, or by the mortal reflexively using the power of the embodiment to actually attempt to end the concept (committing conceptual suicide, as it were). For example, the mantle of the Lord of Battle falls on a warrior poet who is the world's greatest warrior, but who lived his life fighting in order to end war. Upon becoming the embodiment of battle, his desire for all war to end becomes an actual action he can take, and 'Battle' as a concept briefly causes itself to cease to exist, thus paradoxically removing the power to do so. So the mortal gets stuck in a halfway state - no longer mortal, but bound to a gradually decomposing half-formed divinity.

It's probably uncommon for big things like Battle or Sun, but presumably all the time there are new concepts being invented all over the world, and maybe only a handful make it over the hump to actually become proper Lords and Ladies. The rest get stuck in that halfway state - mortal enough that the death of the concept didn't kill them, but divine enough that they can't break free of the conceptual world. Presumably the Lords & Ladies could kill the half-formed creatures and absorb that power, but it may be associations they don't want (I mean, who wants to be god of the Sun, Valor, and Self-Heating Instant Noodle Cups)

This is how adventurers are made/explained, thouh without stagnating into a half formed state, more like a nasent power that just doesn't get activated enough to get to godhood. It actually & helps let me have demigodlike beings without a bunch of god kids. The Lord Ascendant is even an artificer who kept upgrading himself until he mathimagically turned himself into a god.

The thing is that there aren't many concepts left to personify, that aren't part of another deity. The Lord Ascendant was the last being the embodiment of self metamorphism & human ingenuity/bad@ssery

Yora
2017-03-23, 03:57 AM
The first rule of good worldbuilding (or at least a rule very high on that list) is to not include elements in your setting because other people have them in theirs but you don't see what purpose they could fulfil in yours. That's one of the main ways settings get bland and you get a buildup of information that nobody needs to know.

First think of what elements you want to have in your setting and then start working on a way to put them toghether.

Millstone85
2017-03-23, 01:03 PM
So my idea is that the Lord of Night represents inevidability, & entropy, he is a Hades like character & is the oldest god. He ruled the Vastness, then some other gods came. The last god to come was the Lord of Sunlight who showed up & brought light to the world, & became the chief deity. I want it to be that he didnt fight the Lord of Night for rulership, the Lord of Night simply didnt care & let the Lord of Sunlight take over. My biggest problem is coming up with origins for demons & devils, id like to have a bit of corruption but I dont know how to go about it.Here is my offer.

The Lord of Night has already witnessed this scenario countless times. It is never exactly the same gods and world, but everything eventually fades back into the oblivion of the Vastness. Only the Vastness itself, and the Lord of Night as its ruler, are forever.

Some gods manage to stay around for more than one iteration of this cycle of creation. And because no world ever goes gentle into that good night, these gods bear the mark of a decadence the current world can not yet conceive of. Here is your corruption.

As for what makes them devils or demons...

Devils mean to enjoy the world while it lasts. They do not really have any grand scheme of evil, they just are a loathsome bunch.

Demons spread destruction wherever they go, in the hope of becoming the new embodiment of entropy and usurp the Lord of Night.


Also, most god myths have the pantheon battling something else & deposing of them (titans, vanir, etc). I dont know what i could put in without bloating the settingMe neither, at least with what I just described.

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-23, 01:54 PM
If one goes with the idea of previous worlds having emerged, demons/titans/jotun/vanir/asuras/Parmesan monsters could be the last echoes of gods that died eons ago, too powerful to ever truly die. They could even be remnants of various personality traits of faded gods, unaware they are no longer full beings and unable to understand why they are obsessed with old domains or people who remind them of loyal priests or even other demons born of the same god.

The Lord of Night could be glad to have a world emerge because then the haunted screams of a thousand beings who don't even realize they have died centuries ago can go bother someone else for a bit, through he knows that it will only result in the screams getting louder in the end.