Strength drain vs. Ogre Gauntlets

[Osrogue]

This is a straightforward question, I think. How does a shadow's strength drain interact with an individual wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power?

I can really think of three ways it could work.

The shadows drain the natural strength score of the individual, while their effective strength is 19 due to the Gauntlets. They either die if their normal strength is reduced to 0 despite the Gauntlets making their strength 19, or they die if they remove their Gauntlets before they take a short or long rest. This one makes the most sense to me.

Or the shadows drain the strength from the 19 that comes from the Gauntlets. Once the Gauntlets reach 0 before the character takes a long rest, the character dies. If they take off the drained Gauntlets, is their strength its normal value, or the normal value minus the strength drain? This one makes the least sense to me.

Or, the strength drain doesn't work at all on the individual, because while the character wears the Gauntlets, their strength is 19 and it cannot be lowered by the strength drain effect.

[RSP]

I'd go with option 1, with the character dying (and becoming a Shadow I believe) if their Non-Gauntlet Str becomes 0. Effectively the gauntlets keep their score at 19 while their actual Str is drained. And at 0, they're dead, regardless of the gauntlets.

[skaddix]

I say the gauntlets keep the alive as long as they wear them but they are dead if they walk through an AMF or fail a save against Dispel Magic.

[Arkhios]

It's worthwhile to note that to gain the Gauntlets' benefit, you have to first attune yourself with them, which doesn't happen immediately when you don them.

Once attuned, your Strength Score changes to that of the gauntlets (which would be 19) - unless you already have higher.

A shadow's strength drain would then begin to reduce your new strength down from 19, and you'd die once you reach 0. However, the gauntlets would remain intact, and a new person to attune to them, would again have strength 19.

[coredump]

I'd go with option 1, with the character dying (and becoming a Shadow I believe) if their Non-Gauntlet Str becomes 0. Effectively the gauntlets keep their score at 19 while their actual Str is drained. And at 0, they're dead, regardless of the gauntlets.

I concur with this.

[mgshamster]

I like the idea of the real strength score draining as their magically enhanced score stays at 19. However, because their magically enhanced score stays at 19, they don't die from the strength drain.

Once the true strength score drops to 0, make it so it can never be fixed without some epic quest.

Creates a wonderful roleplay opportunity of, "I can never takes these off, or I die."

That would be a cool story.

[SharkForce]

i'd go with option 1 as well. your strength is decreased, but the gauntlets ignore that - they don't care whether your natural strength is 1, 5, or 18, they boost your strength to 19 regardless. but once you hit 0 on your natural strength, that's the end of it. they'll still set your strength to 19 if you wear them, but it won't prevent you from becoming a shadow.

[Steampunkette]

Arkhios is right on the ball with the official rules as written.

Personally I'm a fan of the whole "REAL strength drains, magic strength remains" angle.

[Biggstick]

Definitely option 1. It's the most fitting while creating an interesting encounter for the wearer of the Gauntlets.

[Biggstick]

It's worthwhile to note that to gain the Gauntlets' benefit, you have to first attune yourself with them, which doesn't happen immediately when you don them.

Once attuned, your Strength Score changes to that of the gauntlets (which would be 19) - unless you already have higher.

A shadow's strength drain would then begin to reduce your new strength down from 19, and you'd die once you reach 0. However, the gauntlets would remain intact, and a new person to attune to them, would again have strength 19.

So I'm curious. If you attune to the Gauntlets and then take them off, do you still have the 19 Strength? Your Strength has been magically changed, wouldn't that magic remain?

If your answer is no, which I assume it will be, then we now have two Strength values that we need to worry about. The Strength we have when wearing the Gauntlets we've attuned to, and the Strength we have when we're not wearing the Gauntlets.

Most magic items are pretty powerful. So powerful in fact that they regularly are the only thing to survive should an entire house go up in flames, being completely unscathed. A Dragon's breath could completely destroy everything in a town, but that Magic Item would remain. Even spells like Disintegrate, which can reduce a creature to a pile of fine gray dust, and causes said creature to only be able to be resurrected by a True Resurrection or Wish spell, can't destroy magic items. With this as a basis, how could a simple Shade affect the magical Strength granted by this item?

I see the Strength being granted by the Gauntlets as something that can't be affected unless you're going through an Anti-Magic zone of some sort. Something would have to be able to completely disable the magic of the item to reduce the capability or power of a magic item. (Obviously opinionated and might not be RAW.)

Another route we could go with this is if the Strength drain works the way you're suggesting, couldn't we just Un-attune (probably not a word, but you understand my meaning) to the Gauntlets and Re-attune to them? That would "reset" our Strength back to 19 wouldn't it? We could become the ultimate Shade Slayer with this strategy!

If your answer is yes, that we can remove the Gauntlets once attuned and retain the Strength bonus, then that is something I've never heard of. I would think after attuning to the Gauntlets and having our Strength magically enhanced, we would hide the Gauntlets and lock them up to prevent their magic from ever being stolen from us.

[Steampunkette]

The attunement lasts until:

The person takes a short rest to attune to a new item and chooses to no longer be attuned to the gauntlets.
The person dies.
The person spends 24 hours more than 100ft away from the gauntlets.
Someone else attunes to the gauntlets.

So if he takes the gauntlets off, his strength stays 19 for a while.

This is all presented on page 136-138 of the DMG where it describes how attunement works.

[Biggstick]

The attunement lasts until:

The person takes a short rest to attune to a new item and chooses to no longer be attuned to the gauntlets.
The person dies.
The person spends 24 hours more than 100ft away from the gauntlets.
Someone else attunes to the gauntlets.

So if he takes the gauntlets off, his strength stays 19 for a while.

This is all presented on page 136-138 of the DMG where it describes how attunement works.

Alright cool, so the person wearing the Gauntlets could choose to no longer be attuned to the Gauntlets by either removing them for 24 hours or having a friend attune to them (these seem the easiest to do in my mind). After "losing" the attunement to them, they can "fix" their Strength loss by re-attuning to the item?

[Arkhios]

Alright cool, so the person wearing the Gauntlets could choose to no longer be attuned to the Gauntlets by either removing them for 24 hours or having a friend attune to them (these seem the easiest to do in my mind). After "losing" the attunement to them, they can "fix" their Strength loss by re-attuning to the item?

There's hardly any reason to fix Strength loss, as unless you died and were turned into shadow, all that drained strength returns in either short or long rest.

[Biggstick]

There's hardly any reason to fix Strength loss, as unless you died and were turned into shadow, all that drained strength returns in either short or long rest.

Ahh, for some reason I thought it required a spell like Lesser/Greater Restoration to clear it off. >.<

Thank you for the clarification!

[Arkhios]

Ahh, for some reason I thought it required a spell like Lesser/Greater Restoration to clear it off. >.<

Thank you for the clarification!

It used to be so in 3.5 at least, when ability damage/drain was a more common thing. Maybe you just misremembered.

Now I think Shadows are among the very few and rare causes of temporarily reducing ability scores.

[BiPolar]

It used to be so in 3.5 at least, when ability damage/drain was a more common thing. Maybe you just misremembered.

Now I think Shadows are among the very few and rare causes of temporarily reducing ability scores.

Tome of beasts changes that :)

[MrStabby]

It's worthwhile to note that to gain the Gauntlets' benefit, you have to first attune yourself with them, which doesn't happen immediately when you don them.

Once attuned, your Strength Score changes to that of the gauntlets (which would be 19) - unless you already have higher.

A shadow's strength drain would then begin to reduce your new strength down from 19, and you'd die once you reach 0. However, the gauntlets would remain intact, and a new person to attune to them, would again have strength 19.

This has come up in our group and was exactly how it played out. For me it was as much about this interpretation bringing the most fun to the table - everyone cared about every hit and there was more tension from this.

[FinnS]

Arkhios is right on the ball with the official rules as written.

I don't agree. The GoOP "sets" your STR to 19. It can't be drained down.
The only question here imo is what happens when your natural STR reaches 0.
Become a Shadow or not.
I would rule the former personally.

[FinnS]

The attunement lasts until:

The person takes a short rest to attune to a new item and chooses to no longer be attuned to the gauntlets.
The person dies.
The person spends 24 hours more than 100ft away from the gauntlets.
Someone else attunes to the gauntlets.

So if he takes the gauntlets off, his strength stays 19 for a while.

This is all presented on page 136-138 of the DMG where it describes how attunement works.

Just because someone is attuned to an item doesn't mean they would still retain their benefits if they took it off.
The second you take off the GoOP, your STR would go back to normal.
Attunement just means you could put them back on and immediately regain the benefits of that item.

It flat out states in the description for GoOP that your STR is 19 while you WEAR them.

[Dappershire]

I know people love to Rule's Lawyer this sorta stuff into the ground, but it seems pretty self evident, not only what is written, but what is meant.

If the Gloves come off, you no longer have the strength. Strength comes from the magic item, not your bond and understanding with the magic item.
And Strength Drain would start Draining you from 19.
The 19 isn't cemented in. And even if it was, it would just be shown as "19-1, 19-2", until "19-19" and POP, goes the adventurer.

[BiPolar]

I know people love to Rule's Lawyer this sorta stuff into the ground, but it seems pretty self evident, not only what is written, but what is meant.

If the Gloves come off, you no longer have the strength. Strength comes from the magic item, not your bond and understanding with the magic item.
And Strength Drain would start Draining you from 19.
The 19 isn't cemented in. And even if it was, it would just be shown as "19-1, 19-2", until "19-19" and POP, goes the adventurer.

I am on the fence with this one and not in a rules-lawery type of way. The language of the DMG does say "your strength score is 19 while you wear these", which implies that is your new score. However, if you take them off, your old strength score returns. It feels like strength drain should affect your ability score and not your magically enhanced ability score. But if it doesn't, is strength drain permanently changing the GoOP? It seems like it should. So if they get drained to a 16 strength, then it goes to reason that they are now a 16 strength GoOP. Why should they 'reset' upon unattunement?

[tieren]

I am on the fence with this one and not in a rules-lawery type of way. The language of the DMG does say "your strength score is 19 while you wear these", which implies that is your new score. However, if you take them off, your old strength score returns. It feels like strength drain should affect your ability score and not your magically enhanced ability score. But if it doesn't, is strength drain permanently changing the GoOP? It seems like it should. So if they get drained to a 16 strength, then it goes to reason that they are now a 16 strength GoOP. Why should they 'reset' upon unattunement?

I don't think you have to make it that complicated.

Treat 19 as your Str score, drain your strength score if you get hit, if you survive (don't get hit 19 times), take a rest and your strength score returns to 19.

It only really becomes an issue if you are drained, and survive, and then somehow lose your gauntlets before the rest.

[BiPolar]

I don't think you have to make it that complicated.

Treat 19 as your Str score, drain your strength score if you get hit, if you survive (don't get hit 19 times), take a rest and your strength score returns to 19.

It only really becomes an issue if you are drained, and survive, and then somehow lose your gauntlets before the rest.

True, but that's kind of hand-wave fix for it. "It shouldn't really be a problem, so let's not make it one". However, it doesn't really answer the underlying process of how it IS working.

If you get your strength reduced on the gauntlets to 1 and then unattune them, does your original strength return?

[Temperjoke]

True, but that's kind of hand-wave fix for it. "It shouldn't really be a problem, so let's not make it one". However, it doesn't really answer the underlying process of how it IS working.

If you get your strength reduced on the gauntlets to 1 and then unattune them, does your original strength return?

I don't think they should be treated like separate scores, like a druid's HP when in Wild Shape. I mean, the gauntlets change your strength to 19, unless it was higher, no matter how much lower it was. That implies to me that the magic compensates for your regular physical weakness, whether temporary or normal. So to me, it makes sense that even if your regular score would have been temporarily dropped to 0, as long as the magic of the gauntlets is in effect on you, you're safe until you can restore your natural strength.

[BiPolar]

I don't think they should be treated like separate scores, like a druid's HP when in Wild Shape. I mean, the gauntlets change your strength to 19, unless it was higher, no matter how much lower it was. That implies to me that the magic compensates for your regular physical weakness, whether temporary or normal. So to me, it makes sense that even if your regular score would have been temporarily dropped to 0, as long as the magic of the gauntlets is in effect on you, you're safe until you can restore your natural strength.

Does that mean the gauntlets have an immediate one-time effect at attunement and then are no longer doing anything?

I guess the way I've always imagined it as that there are two separate scores. You have your strength, and then you have your strength that's provided by the gauntlets. Anything that is damaging your strength is damaging YOUR strength, not the strength of the gauntlets. Sort of like the gauntlets are Iron Man's suit. Damage to the Strength attribute is against Tony Stark. Damage to the suit is damage to the suit. But they are separate things.And the suit is making up/giving more ability to the wearer.

[DivisibleByZero]

Attune to the Gauntlets.
Put them on.
Change the number on your character sheet in the Strength box to reflect the 19 granted by the gauntlets.
If you take them off for whatever reason, your Str returns to its normal numerical value.
Put them back on again, and write down 19 again.
Get hit by a Shadow.
Look at your character sheet and subtract 1 from your Str score.
Your Str is now 18 while you wear the gauntlets until you rest.

This isn't hard, guys.

[BiPolar]

Attune to the Gauntlets.
Put them on.
Change the number on your character sheet in the Strength box to reflect the 19 granted by the gauntlets.
If you take them off for whatever reason, your Str returns to its normal numerical value.
Put them back on again, and write down 19 again.
Get hit by a Shadow.
Look at your character sheet and subtract 1 from your Str score.
Your Str is now 18 while you wear the gauntlets until you rest.

This isn't hard, guys.

Could you then take short rests to unattune/reattune the gauntlets and bypass the Long Rest fix?

[DivisibleByZero]

Could you then take short rests to unattune/reattune the gauntlets and bypass the Long Rest fix?

Not if I'm your DM you can't.

[Temperjoke]

Attune to the Gauntlets.
Put them on.
Change the number on your character sheet in the Strength box to reflect the 19 granted by the gauntlets.
If you take them off for whatever reason, your Str returns to its normal numerical value.
Put them back on again, and write down 19 again.
Get hit by a Shadow.
Look at your character sheet and subtract 1 from your Str score.
Your Str is now 18 while you wear the gauntlets until you rest.

This isn't hard, guys.

Except that the items say your STR score is 19 while wearing them. The item doesn't say that you are still vulnerable to ability score changes while wearing them, so why would your strength decrease at all while you wear them?

[DivisibleByZero]

Except that the items say your STR score is 19 while wearing them. The item doesn't say that you are still vulnerable to ability score changes while wearing them, so why would your strength decrease at all while you wear them?

5e was not designed with 3.5/4e rules lawyer language in mind. It was written in plain English.
If you try to rules lawyer it, you're going to run into problems.
If you take it at its 100% crystal clear intention, there is no problem.

I mean, come on. You know what it is trying to convey....

[BiPolar]

5e was not designed with 3.5/4e rules lawyer language in mind. It was written in plain English.
If you try to rules lawyer it, you're going to run into problems.
If you take it at its 100% crystal clear intention, there is no problem.

I mean, come on. You know what it is trying to convey....

Agreed, this is not the path to question what's happening here :)

But I'm still not sold on the your score/your magically enhanced score. Honestly, I'd be fine with it working either way at DM fiat without much concern.

[Temperjoke]

5e was not designed with 3.5/4e rules lawyer language in mind. It was written in plain English.
If you try to rules lawyer it, you're going to run into problems.
If you take it at its 100% crystal clear intention, there is no problem.

I mean, come on. You know what it is trying to convey....

How am I rules lawyering it? Your natural strength could be 1, and you put on the gauntlets to instantly raise it to 19. You take them off, and it's back to 1. That is what it literally reads to me. It says nothing about other affects changing your strength from 19 while you are wearing the gauntlets.

[DivisibleByZero]

How am I rules lawyering it? Your natural strength could be 1, and you put on the gauntlets to instantly raise it to 19. You take them off, and it's back to 1. That is what it literally reads to me. It says nothing about other affects changing your strength from 19 while you are wearing the gauntlets.

So what you're saying is that having a natural Str of 19 is inferior to having a natural Str of 3 and wearing gauntlets, because the magical gauntlet make you immune to ability damage.
You can't possibly believe that this is the intended function of the gauntlets, can you?

And to answer your question, you're rules lawyering it because you think that something that isn't specifically explained means that it is not something that you need to be concerned with.
It can't happen because it doesn't tell me that it can happen.
That's rules lawyering.

[Doug Lampert]

Attune to the Gauntlets.
Put them on.
Change the number on your character sheet in the Strength box to reflect the 19 granted by the gauntlets.
If you take them off for whatever reason, your Str returns to its normal numerical value.
Put them back on again, and write down 19 again.
Get hit by a Shadow.
Look at your character sheet and subtract 1 from your Str score.
Your Str is now 18 while you wear the gauntlets until you rest.

This isn't hard, guys.

Cool, so in your game stuff that changes my strength uses the gauntlet score as if it were mine, so if I wear gloves and get a strength increase (ASI or manual) then my strength increases from 19, not my dump stat of 8. And presumably since I've changed the score, that's now my natural score and would apply even if I took the gloves off.

Or is it just damage/drain that makes us ignore the plain wording of the item description.

[DanyBallon]

So what you're saying is that having a natural Str of 19 is inferior to having a natural Str of 3 and wearing gauntlets, because the magical gauntlet make you immune to ability damage.
You can't possibly believe that this is the intended function of the gauntlets, can you?

And to answer your question, you're rules lawyering it because you think that something that isn't specifically explained means that it is not something that you need to be concerned with.
It can't happen because it doesn't tell me that it can happen.
That's rules lawyering.

The Gauntlets do not make you immune to ability damage, just that it won't affect your effective strenght as long as you wear the Gauntlets. (note that I'm in the camp of ability drain reduce your real ability score, not the one modified by the Gauntlets, so if your ability is drained to 0 you die, even if the effective score is still 19)

[Temperjoke]

So what you're saying is that having a natural Str of 19 is inferior to having a natural Str of 3 and wearing gauntlets, because the magical gauntlet make you immune to ability damage.
You can't possibly believe that this is the intended function of the gauntlets, can you?

And to answer your question, you're rules lawyering it because you think that something that isn't specifically explained means that it is not something that you need to be concerned with.
It can't happen because it doesn't tell me that it can happen.
That's rules lawyering.

I don't see it as being an intended function, more that it's an unintended benefit. I also don't see it as being totally immune either, your natural strength decreases with each of the shadow's hits, you just don't notice it if you don't take off the gauntlets. So, the person with 1 STR wearing the guantlets, would normally drop to 0 and die if they didn't have the gauntlets. Not knowing about this unintended benefit, they finish off the shadow, then for one reason or another, takes off the gauntlets before they can get a short rest. I would rule that they would immediately die, having suddenly met the conditions to be affected by the shadow's ability, with suitably dramatic language describing that their injuries suddenly flair with necrotic energy or some such thing.

[Doug Lampert]

The Gauntlets do not make you immune to ability damage, just that it won't affect your effective strenght as long as you wear the Gauntlets. (note that I'm in the camp of ability drain reduce your real ability score, not the one modified by the Gauntlets, so if your ability is drained to 0 you die, even if the effective score is still 19)

Yep, this is the method that (a) follows the item description and effect and (b) also allows the shadow to be dangerous, in fact, the shadow is exactly as dangerous as it should be. And there's no funkiness with other interactions.

[DivisibleByZero]

https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/844967061910704128

[Puh Laden]

5e was not designed with 3.5/4e rules lawyer language in mind. It was written in plain English.
If you try to rules lawyer it, you're going to run into problems.
If you take it at its 100% crystal clear intention, there is no problem.

I mean, come on. You know what it is trying to convey....

The gauntlets of ogre power's description says that while you wear them your Strength score is 19 unless it was higher. Not "when you put these on your Strength score becomes 19," but "while you wear them." It's plain English.

RAW your Strength score is 19 while you wear them, and the shadow's ability drains your Strength score not your "natural Strength score" a phrase which I'm certain is undefined in 5e. The shadow therefore can succeed in "draining" your Strength score but it remains at 19. If you take off the gauntlets it's whatever your score was before, because that number was not your Strength score but what your Strength score used to be.

Admittedly I would still house-rule it to the OP's option 1.

[DivisibleByZero]

The gauntlets of ogre power's description says that while you wear them your Strength score is 19 unless it was higher. Not "when you put these on your Strength score becomes 19," but "while you wear them." It's plain English.

RAW your Strength score is 19 while you wear them, and the shadow's ability drains your Strength score not your "natural Strength score" a phrase which I'm certain is undefined in 5e. The shadow therefore can succeed in "draining" your Strength score but it remains at 19. If you take off the gauntlets it's whatever your score was before, because that number was not your Strength score but what your Strength score used to be.

Admittedly I would still house-rule it to the OP's option 1.

See, I don't understand how you guys get this.
I mean, you started off strong:

RAW your Strength score is 19 while you wear them, and the shadow's ability drains your Strength score not your "natural Strength score" a phrase which I'm certain is undefined in 5e.
And then you somehow immediately contradicted where you were going with that:

The shadow therefore can succeed in "draining" your Strength score but it remains at 19.
If you believe that your Str score and your "natural Str score" is a separation that doesn't exist, then how do you go from:

the shadow's ability drains your Strength score not your "natural Strength score"
to:

The shadow therefore can succeed in "draining" your Strength score but it remains at 19.
If your Str score and your "natural Str score" are not two different things, then why is it that you believe that your Str score and your "magical Str score" are indeed two different things?
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Either the two are the same, and if either drops then they both drop, or the two are different, and they can drop individually.
But you can't say that they are both the same and yet only one of them drops. That's contradictory.

[Puh Laden]

See, I don't understand how you guys get this.
I mean, you started off strong:

And then you somehow immediately contradicted where you were going with that:

If you believe that your Str score and your "natural Str score" is a separation that doesn't exist, then how do you go from:

to:

If your Str score and your "natural Str score" are not two different things, then why is it that you believe that your Str score and your "magical Str score" are indeed two different things?
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Either the two are the same, and if either drops then they both drop, or the two are different, and they can drop individually.
But you can't say that they are both the same and yet only one of them drops. That's contradictory.

I wasn't very clear there, but what I was trying to say is that neither your strength score nor your "natural score" as some call it or "previous score" as I call it has their number go down but the act of "draining" succeeds. Admittedly I'm not near my MM and searching the SRD on my phone is annoying so I'm not even sure if that's the language used. But if it is and some other effect were to be triggered upon a drain it would be triggered. That was what I was trying to say.

[DivisibleByZero]

It's a matter of specific vs general.
General: Your Str is 10.
General: Your Str becomes 19 while wearing these gauntlets.
Specific: You lose 1pt of Str when hit by this attack.

19 becomes 18, even with the gauntlets on.

[DanyBallon]

It's a matter of specific vs general.
General: Your Str is 10.
General: Your Str becomes 19 while wearing these gauntlets.
Specific: You lose 1pt of Str when hit by this attack.

19 becomes 18, even with the gauntlets on.

What happen if ou lose 1pt of STR while wearing gauntlets of ogre power and remove the gauntlets afterward? Do your strength drop to 10 or to 9?

[jas61292]

The way I see it, because it is a temporary effect, unlike an ASI, the Str drain should be treated like a condition. Unless something says it removes it, it doesn't, no matter what changes you go through. If you are wearing the gauntlets and have your strength reduced by 3, down to 16. If your original strength was 8, and you take off the gauntlets, your strength is still reduced by 3, down to 5. If you transform into a beast with a strength of 23, your strength is now 20.

The penalty doesn't change just because your score does.

[DivisibleByZero]

What happen if ou lose 1pt of STR while wearing gauntlets of ogre power and remove the gauntlets afterward? Do your strength drop to 10 or to 9?


Either the two are the same, and if either drops then they both drop, or the two are different, and they can drop individually.

I am of the mind that they are the same, so they both drop.
Your Str becomes 18 while wearing, and 9 while not. If you are at 8 or less while wearing them and you take them off, your Str is negative and you immediately die.
That's how I'd do it.


The way I see it, because it is a temporary effect, unlike an ASI, the Str drain should be treated like a condition. Unless something says it removes it, it doesn't, no matter what changes you go through. If you are wearing the gauntlets and have your strength reduced by 3, down to 16. If your original strength was 8, and you take off the gauntlets, your strength is still reduced by 3, down to 5. If you transform into a beast with a strength of 23, your strength is now 20.

The penalty doesn't change just because your score does.

This guy. Right here.
He gets it.

edit:
@ v : Nope

[BiPolar]

What happen if ou lose 1pt of STR while wearing gauntlets of ogre power and remove the gauntlets afterward? Do your strength drop to 10 or to 9?

If going by DBZ, I'd say it's 10. They're not at - 1,it dropped the gauntlets from 19 to 18. It either effects the gauntlets or you, not both.

edit: I may (and probably) have put words in DBZ's mouth that weren't correct. To help clarify I see three possibilities here:

The following is where we start:
Original Strength=X
GoOP Strength=Y
Shadow Drain causes -1

Option A
Your strength is now Y-1

Option B
Your strength is now X-1, but effectively Y

Option C
Your strength is now X-1 AND Y-1

I believe DBZ is actually advocating for Option C (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Personally, I prefer Option B. I like the idea of a powered set of gauntlets giving you an unchangeable score because Magic. But your real score is affected by various effects. Because that's YOUR ability score. The 19 you have with the GoOP is your current score, but it's magically enhanced on top of what your real score is.

[DanyBallon]

Your Str becomes 18 while wearing, and 9 while not. If you are at 8 or less while wearing them and you take them off, your Str is negative and you immediately die.
That's how I'd do it.



It's a valid interpretation. It's the way it worked back in 3.P, but with the way it is described in 5e I prefer my interpretation. Magic items feel more magic this way compared to a +X bonus.

[Puh Laden]

If going by DBZ, I'd say it's 10. They're not at - 1,it dropped the gauntlets from 19 to 18. It either effects the gauntlets or you, not both.

edit: I may (and probably) have put words in DBZ's mouth that weren't correct. To help clarify I see three possibilities here:

The following is where we start:
Original Strength=X
GoOP Strength=Y
Shadow Drain causes -1

Option A
Your strength is now Y-1

Option B
Your strength is now X-1, but effectively Y

Option C
Your strength is now X-1 AND Y-1

I believe DBZ is actually advocating for Option C (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Personally, I prefer Option B. I like the idea of a powered set of gauntlets giving you an unchangeable score because Magic. But your real score is affected by various effects. Because that's YOUR ability score. The 19 you have with the GoOP is your current score, but it's magically enhanced on top of what your real score is.

After a search for SA this seems to be Jeremy Crawford's opinion as well:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/29/level-up-increasing-ability-and-magic-item-that-rise-ability-score/

Edit: This seems to imply that the gauntlets do not actually change your Strength score but effectively changes it, despite the wording in the SRD not specifying that.

But then does the shadow actually change your score or effectively change it?

[DivisibleByZero]

After a search for SA this seems to be Jeremy Crawford's opinion as well:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/29/level-up-increasing-ability-and-magic-item-that-rise-ability-score/

Ability Score Increases that you gain every four levels and Ability Drain/Damage that you suffer are two completely separate things. I understand that you were specifically referring to the "overwrites what's on your sheet" part of it, but that stated to explain the answer to someone that wasn't getting it.
If you try to apply it here, you very well may be taking it out of context to the point that it is no longer applicable.
Apples and Oranges, as they say.

Basically, the example you're citing as confirmations went like this:
Question: (insert here)
Answer version 1: he doesn't get it
Answer version 2: he doesn't get it
Answer version 3: he doesn't get it
Answer version 4: okay, I think he's got it

Hey, look guys! This thing we're discussing, which has nothing to do with the question asked on twitter, has confirmation in answer #4!

Except that answer may very well not be true in this case, because it took so long to get there and may have just been explained that way so that this guy would "get it," and in reality has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.
I'll wait for the answer to the question as I posed it a few hours ago, where there will be no room for error.


https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/844967061910704128

[FinnS]

The Shadow is draining you, not the Gauntlets afaic.

While you wear the Gauntlets, your STR score is 19 is akin to Barkskin setting your AC to 16 no matter what.
You can be affected by AC or DEX reducing spells/abilities all day long but your actual AC will not drop below 16 until Barkskin comes off.

A Shadow can't drain from the Gauntlets, it drains from you.

You have a STR of 13, Gauntlets set it to 19 while you wear them.
Shadow drains from your 13 STR.
Get hit by a Shadow 13 times and you become a Shadow.

That's the way I would and will rule it because it makes the most sense, regardless of what answer Crawford gives on twitter.

[RSP]

I like to think of it this way:

PC has Str 15. PC gets GoOP. PC gains a level, and that new level gives an ASI. PC chooses to take the HAM feat, which raises his Str by 1.

Now, is his strength 20 or 16? The RAW says its 16, but the GoOP grant him a Str of 19 while they're worn.

This shows that his pre-GoOP strength is still an actual number even though his Str changed while wearing the GoOP.

Now just subtract instead of adding when dealing with Shadows and you have your answer.

[coredump]

The attunement lasts until:

The person takes a short rest to attune to a new item and chooses to no longer be attuned to the gauntlets.
The person dies.
The person spends 24 hours more than 100ft away from the gauntlets.
Someone else attunes to the gauntlets.

So if he takes the gauntlets off, his strength stays 19 for a while.

This is all presented on page 136-138 of the DMG where it describes how attunement works.

The DMG very explicitly states that your str is 19 while you "wear" the gauntlets. So once you take them off, what is your str? According to you, being attuned has 'changed' your str....but that doesn't make sense with the rules.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's worthwhile to note that to gain the Gauntlets' benefit, you have to first attune yourself with them, which doesn't happen immediately when you don them.

Once attuned, your Strength Score changes to that of the gauntlets (which would be 19) - unless you already have higher.

A shadow's strength drain would then begin to reduce your new strength down from 19, and you'd die once you reach 0. However, the gauntlets would remain intact, and a new person to attune to them, would again have strength 19.

Once attuned the character would remain attuned even after removing the gauntlets, as that is not one of the 5 methods under which a creatures detunes from a magic item (DMG 138).

More importent than that, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength use the phrasing: "Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is already 19 or higher." (DMG 171)

And here's the relevant Shadow text:

"and the target's Strength score is reduced by 1d4. The target dies if this reduces its Strength to 0. Otherwise the reduction lasts until the target finishes a short or long rest." (MM 269)

So, because of the wording of the gauntlets there simply is no distinction between your "natural" score and the current one, they're effectively the same until the gauntlets are removed.

It would be an order of operations matter (does the drain apply, then the gauntlets or do the gauntlets apply, and then layer drain on top of that?) except...the wording on the gauntlets is an always on thing.

Strength Drain can have no effect, because the magic of the gauntlets is always setting the score to 19, regardless of how much drain is accumulated prior to a rest.
The gauntlets therefore provide a fringe benefit of effective immunity to strength drain.

[RSP]

Once attuned the character would remain attuned even after removing the gauntlets, as that is not one of the 5 methods under which a creatures detunes from a magic item (DMG 138).

More importent than that, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength use the phrasing: "Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is already 19 or higher." (DMG 171)

And here's the relevant Shadow text:

"and the target's Strength score is reduced by 1d4. The target dies if this reduces its Strength to 0. Otherwise the reduction lasts until the target finishes a short or long rest." (MM 269)

So, because of the wording of the gauntlets there simply is no distinction between your "natural" score and the current one, they're effectively the same until the gauntlets are removed.

It would be an order of operations matter (does the drain apply, then the gauntlets or do the gauntlets apply, and then layer drain on top of that?) except...the wording on the gauntlets is an always on thing.

Strength Drain can have no effect, because the magic of the gauntlets is always setting the score to 19, regardless of how much drain is accumulated prior to a rest.
The gauntlets therefore provide a fringe benefit of effective immunity to strength drain.

Wrong. The GoOS is not always setting the score at 19. You're forgetting the last sentence: it does nothing if the wearer's Str is over 19.

Therefore, if there is no distinction between the "natural" score and the 19, then the score can be increased (as the item doesn't say it can't be), as per the normal ASI rules.

So, what happens when the character gains HAM, or just adds +1 with an ASI? If there's no distinction between Str scores, then the character's Str becomes 20, which would mean the GoOS would have "no effect," and the character could then pass the GoOS to someone new, keeping their 20 Str, who could also then increase their Str, and likewise pass the GoOS, so on and so forth.

I understand your reading of the rules, but this can't be the RAI.

[Dappershire]

Ogre strength. As in giving you an Ogre's strength. Are Ogres immune to strength drain? No.
Quit trying soooooo hard to cheese things up and OP your characters.
Some cheese is obvious, the loopholes are huge. This subject though, you're bending over backwards and leaping off a waterfall, to hit this hoop.

Strength = 10.
Gloves on. Strength = 19
Hit by Shadow. Strength = 19 - 1d4
Gloves off. Strength now = 10 - 1d4
Gloves back on. Strength is still = 19 - 1d4.

Re-attuning the Gloves doesn't wipe the damage away like a dry film on the skin. Its necrotic energy. Think of it as a constant effect, diminishing your strength, if that helps. I really don't understand how anyone is seeing this in any other way.
"Well, they cut both my arms off. But since my dismembered limbs are still wearing the Ogre Gloves, I kick them with 19 strength!" You're all silly.


And doesn't a short rest heal necrotic strength loss anyways?

[Arkhios]

Ogre strength. As in giving you an Ogre's strength. Are Ogres immune to strength drain? No.
Quit trying soooooo hard to cheese things up and OP your characters.
Some cheese is obvious, the loopholes are huge. This subject though, you're bending over backwards and leaping off a waterfall, to hit this hoop.

Strength = 10.
Gloves on. Strength = 19
Hit by Shadow. Strength = 19 - 1d4
Gloves off. Strength now = 10 - 1d4
Gloves back on. Strength is still = 19 - 1d4.

Re-attuning the Gloves doesn't wipe the damage away like a dry film on the skin. Its necrotic energy. Think of it as a constant effect, diminishing your strength, if that helps. I really don't understand how anyone is seeing this in any other way.
"Well, they cut both my arms off. But since my dismembered limbs are still wearing the Ogre Gloves, I kick them with 19 strength!" You're all silly.


And doesn't a short rest heal necrotic strength loss anyways?

Yes, like I said earlier, and Steampunkette confirmed. Getting rid of attunement isn't that immediate either. Not getting a short rest before being stripped off of attunement is very unlikely situation.

[FinnS]

Wrong. The GoOS is not always setting the score at 19. You're forgetting the last sentence: it does nothing if the wearer's Str is over 19.

Therefore, if there is no distinction between the "natural" score and the 19, then the score can be increased (as the item doesn't say it can't be), as per the normal ASI rules.

So, what happens when the character gains HAM, or just adds +1 with an ASI? If there's no distinction between Str scores, then the character's Str becomes 20, which would mean the GoOS would have "no effect," and the character could then pass the GoOS to someone new, keeping their 20 Str, who could also then increase their Str, and likewise pass the GoOS, so on and so forth.

I understand your reading of the rules, but this can't be the RAI.

It's not "wrong".
I would contend that if someone, for whatever reason, was wearing GoOP even if they already had 20 STR was hit by a Shadow and was brought down to 18 STR or lower, that the gauntlets would then take over and set their STR to 19.
Any further STR drains would continue to take away from their natural score until they reached 0 at which time they would die regardless of the gauntlets. They would have a 19 STR up till that point though.
There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with this interpretation of RAW, nothing!

Especially when the GoOP description says that their STR will be 19 as long as they wear them.
A Shadow's touch is a withering/weakening/draining of the flesh. That touch should not be able wither/weaken/drain from an inanimate magical object.
That touch will however continue to drain the flesh until it reaches 0 and there is no more flesh at which time the gauntlets will no longer have a body to empower.

That is the closest one can get to RAW in this situation but that's just my opinion and how I would rule it as DM.
There's more than enough wiggle room for another DM to rule it differently and still not be "wrong".
In fact, the only thing I have read in this thread that was 100% wrong was the suggestion that just because one was still attuned to the Gauntlets, that ones STR would remain at 19 even after removing the Gauntlets.
That is most definitely wrong, period.

[RSP]

Let me clarify: the "wrong" statement was specifically referencing this line:


Strength Drain can have no effect, because the magic of the gauntlets is always setting the score to 19, regardless of how much drain is accumulated prior to a rest.

And what is wrong about it, is that wearing the Gauntlets doesn't always make your Str 19, because if it's already over 19, it doesn't do anything at all.

Apologies if that wasn't clear in my response.


It's not "wrong".
I would contend that if someone, for whatever reason, was wearing GoOP even if they already had 20 STR was hit by a Shadow and was brought down to 18 STR or lower, that the gauntlets would then take over and set their STR to 19.
Any further STR drains would continue to take away from their natural score until they reached 0 at which time they would die regardless of the gauntlets. They would have a 19 STR up till that point though.
There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with this interpretation of RAW, nothing!

Especially when the GoOP description says that their STR will be 19 as long as they wear them.
A Shadow's touch is a withering/weakening/draining of the flesh. That touch should not be able wither/weaken/drain from an inanimate magical object.
That touch will however continue to drain the flesh until it reaches 0 and there is no more flesh at which time the gauntlets will no longer have a body to empower.

That is the closest one can get to RAW in this situation but that's just my opinion and how I would rule it as DM.
There's more than enough wiggle room for another DM to rule it differently and still not be "wrong".
In fact, the only thing I have read in this thread that was 100% wrong was the suggestion that just because one was still attuned to the Gauntlets, that ones STR would remain at 19 even after removing the Gauntlets.
That is most definitely wrong, period.

Now I'd say this has some parts wrong as well. Keep in mind, the GoOP have no effect if the wearer has strength 20+. No effect includes "can't be attuned" as, by definition attuning something is an effect (of nothing else, its magic takes up 1/3 of your ability to handle these types of magic).

Therefore, you couldn't attune the GoOP with Str 20+, and they, therefore, wouldn't do anything if you were wearing them and got hit by a Shadow.

[BiPolar]

Now I'd say this has some parts wrong as well. Keep in mind, the GoOP have no effect if the wearer has strength 20+. No effect includes "can't be attuned" as, by definition attuning something is an effect (of nothing else, its magic takes up 1/3 of your ability to handle these types of magic).

Therefore, you couldn't attune the GoOP with Str 20+, and they, therefore, wouldn't do anything if you were wearing them and got hit by a Shadow.

Where do you read that "No effect on you..." is equal to "can not attune them"?

[Durzan]

Questions like this are why 3.5e items provided stat bonuses, not raising them to a specific stat.

[DivisibleByZero]

Questions like this are why 3.5e items provided stat bonuses, not raising them to a specific stat.

That's funny, because back in AD&D2e items raised to a set number, just like this, and Shadows did Str damage, just like this, and there was never any confusion because everyone knew what the intent was and lawyers hardly existed.

It was really simple.
What is your Str right now? 19
What is 19 -1d4? That's your Str now. (it was only 1 at the time rather than 1d4, but the point holds)

[Zanos]

It's worthwhile to note that to gain the Gauntlets' benefit, you have to first attune yourself with them, which doesn't happen immediately when you don them.

Once attuned, your Strength Score changes to that of the gauntlets (which would be 19) - unless you already have higher.

A shadow's strength drain would then begin to reduce your new strength down from 19, and you'd die once you reach 0. However, the gauntlets would remain intact, and a new person to attune to them, would again have strength 19.
I concur.

Questions like this are why 3.5e items provided stat bonuses, not raising them to a specific stat.
No, people still asked this question about magic items and ability damage in 3.5. It usually boiled down to "If I'm wearing a +6 item and my base stat is drained to 0 is it 0 or 6(Base 0 + 6 bonus)?" And the answer was that it's zero. You could probably still find the threads if you looked for them.

[BiPolar]

I concur.


I (obviously) do not :) "Your strength is 19 while you wear these gauntlets" is NOT the same thing as "this magical item changes your actual Ability score to 19." The latter is something that the various Tomes do.

[DivisibleByZero]

I (obviously) do not :) "Your strength is 19 while you wear these gauntlets" is NOT the same thing as "this magical item changes your actual Ability score to 19." The latter is something that the various Tomes do.

Okay, so explain to me where it says that "this Str damage only applies to your actual Str score, and any magical items you wear to increase your Str do not suffer from this damage."
You won't be able to point us to that, because it is not written anywhere, and that side's argument is using legalese in a game not designed to be read in that manner.
Once again, this isn't 3.5 or 4e. Those editions tried to spell everything out is such ridiculous detail that the entire system got bogged down for it and created ridiculous loopholes so that things got even more bogged down. 5e went with a more plain English approach. The days of Lawyering should be gone, but the lawyers insist that those days are still here.

Your Str was whatever it was.
Now your Str is 19.
Now you take Str damage, so what's 19-1d4? That's your new Str until you rest.

[BiPolar]

Okay, so explain to me where it says that "this Str damage only applies to your actual Str score, and any magical items you wear to increase your Str do not suffer from this damage."
You won't be able to point us to that, because it is not written anywhere, and that side's argument is using legalese in a game not designed to be read in that manner.
Once again, this isn't 3.5 or 4e. Those editions tried to spell everything out is such ridiculous detail that the entire system got bogged down for it and created ridiculous loopholes so that things got even more bogged down. 5e went with a more plain English approach. The days of Lawyering should be gone, but the lawyers insist that those days are still here.

Your Str was whatever it was.
Now your Str is 19.
Now you take Str damage, so what's 19-1d4? That's your new Str until you rest.

My thought process, which I've said before and you clearly don't agree with (but I don't think it's necessarily wrong) is as follows:

1. Gauntlets are a magical item that give you a set Strength score (19).
2. They do this in a way that is magically enhancing your own actual ability score. The language of "Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets."
3. This is very different than the Tome items which state "Your X score increases by 2, as does your maximum for that score.'
4. The implication is that you have your Actual Strength Score, but that while you wear the gauntlets your strength is 19.
5. Any reduction to your strength score is to your actual strength. The gauntlets don't say "replace your strength score", just that when you wear them your strength is 19.
6. The Shadow is consuming the strength of the victim. The 19 is not the strength of the victim, but the strength score given by the Gauntlets.

I don't think this is rules-lawyering. I think this is looking at what the gauntlets are actual doing (which is giving you a strength of 19 while you wear them...NOT increasing your ability score to 19) and seeing how that would work with something that affects your actual physical strength ability score. You are being weakened. The gauntlets are propping you up.

Looking at it another way: You are wearing power armor. The Power Armor is doing the heavy lifting. You encounter an effect that weakens YOU. THe power armor is not weakened, just the person inside.

[DivisibleByZero]

Lays out a 6 point step by step explanation, wherein this is happening, but this is not, because the text claims X, but not Y....
And then wonders why I call it rules-lawyering....

[BiPolar]

Lays out a 6 point step by step explanation, wherein this is happening, but this is not, because the text claims X, but not Y....
And then wonders why I call it rules-lawyering....

Do you have another way to step you through the logic?

Can you please step me through YOUR logic? Or do you prefer to just hand wave it and say that anyone who disagrees is rules lawyering?

[DivisibleByZero]

Do you have another way to step you through the logic?

Can you please step me through YOUR logic? Or do you prefer to just hand wave it and say that anyone who disagrees is rules lawyering?

I have already explained it, twice on this page alone.

[Segev]

If you are hit by a Shadow, do you have X Str Damage on you as a persistant effect, or is there an instantaneous "reduce your Str by X" effect?

If it's the former, then your Str is reduced even while wearing the Gauntlets. They set you to 19, but you have X damage, so your Str is now 19-X as long as the X damage is on you.

If it's the latter, then your Str is not reduced while wearing the Gauntlets. The damage reduces your Str, but the Gauntlets set your Str back to 19 as long as you wear them.



To see this more clearly, ask yourself this: If Bob has a native Str of 14 and is wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power to elevate that to Str 19, and he gets hit for 4 Str damage by a Shadow, then takes off the Gauntlets, is his Str 14 or 10?

[MrMcBobb]

Attune to the Gauntlets.
1. Put them on.
2. Change the number on your character sheet in the Strength box to reflect the 19 granted by the gauntlets.
3. If you take them off for whatever reason, your Str returns to its normal numerical value.
4. Put them back on again, and write down 19 again.
5. Get hit by a Shadow.
6. Look at your character sheet and subtract 1 from your Str score.
7. Your Str is now 18 while you wear the gauntlets until you rest.

This isn't hard, guys.

-- Numeration is mine --

How is this different from BiPolar's apparent rules lawyering? The only difference I can see is that you offer no explanation, just a statement of the rules as you see them and didn't put numbers in front of your clearly paragraphed points.

I much prefer the idea of GoOP making your strength 19 all the time with the caveat that if you take them off then your body is withered by the necrotic effects. The power armour explanation seems the most obvious in terms of how an inanimate object would react to strength draining necrotic damage (most constructs are immune to necrotic after all). Obviously at other tables the rules would be different but the version, but that's how I see it.

[RSP]

Where do you read that "No effect on you..." is equal to "can not attune them"?

Attuning something is an effect, if nothing else, it takes up one of your three attunement slots.

It's not something in the book, it's commonsense: if I attune an item, it has an effect on me, if nothing else, in that I can now only attune to two other things.

[RSP]

I have already explained it, twice on this page alone.

But you haven't responded to the fact that if it actually changes the character's score, as you suggest, then that character could ASI that score to 20 and no longer need the Gauntlets which is clearly not the intent of the designers.

[DivisibleByZero]

-- Numeration is mine --

How is this different from BiPolar's apparent rules lawyering?

The difference is that one of them is common sense from A-to-B explanation, only spelled out in detail because some people apparently need it, while the other is citing what rules say what, and what rules don't say, and cross referencing other magical items that have no bearing on the discussion at hand, and so on and so forth.


But you haven't responded to the fact that if it actually changes the character's score, as you suggest, then that character could ASI that score to 20 and no longer need the Gauntlets which is clearly not the intent of the designers.

Dude, seriously. It's so simple. Stop trying to read between the lines when there are no lines to read between.
You know exactly what this item does.


That's funny, because back in AD&D2e items raised to a set number, just like this, and Shadows did Str damage, just like this, and there was never any confusion because everyone knew what the intent was and lawyers hardly existed.

It was really simple.
What is your Str right now? 19
What is 19 -1d4? That's your Str now. (it was only 1 at the time rather than 1d4, but the point holds)


Okay, so explain to me where it says that "this Str damage only applies to your actual Str score, and any magical items you wear to increase your Str do not suffer from this damage."
You won't be able to point us to that, because it is not written anywhere, and that side's argument is using legalese in a game not designed to be read in that manner.
Once again, this isn't 3.5 or 4e. Those editions tried to spell everything out is such ridiculous detail that the entire system got bogged down for it and created ridiculous loopholes so that things got even more bogged down. 5e went with a more plain English approach. The days of Lawyering should be gone, but the lawyers insist that those days are still here.

Your Str was whatever it was.
Now your Str is 19.
Now you take Str damage, so what's 19-1d4? That's your new Str until you rest.

You don't have to make it any more complicated than that.
Your Str was 8 or 10 or 15 or whatever.
Now it's 19
Now you get hit by a Shadow and take 1d4 Str damage, and that makes your Str 19-1d4.
Simple.

You guys are going out of your way to make things more complicated than they really are.

[BiPolar]

Attuning something is an effect, if nothing else, it takes up one of your three attunement slots.

It's not something in the book, it's commonsense: if I attune an item, it has an effect on me, if nothing else, in that I can now only attune to two other things.

Ah, but there is a difference! Not wanting to attune is different than can't attune. And this in fact supports my supposition in that if you had a STR of 20 and had the gauntlets attuned and were subsequently hit with a Strength Drain, your floor is 19.

[RSP]

It's pretty simple: while wearing the GoOP, a character's Str is 19.

Note nothing in this statement means the character's actual Strength score is now 19. It's a basic conditional statement, which means, when the condition is not present, it has no impact on the character.

The character always still has their own Str score: this is what would be raised with ASIs, feats, Str increasing magic items or Manuals. Likewise, this score is what would be lowered by Ability damage.

Just because you're wearing the Gauntlets, doesn't mean the character's ability changed.

This is also easily represented in showing what happens when the Gauntlets are removed. What number would you give the character who removed the Gauntlets?

Would you roll a new Str score? Would you keep it at 19? No. You go with whatever their actual Str score is, and has been, the entire time.

[MrMcBobb]

The difference is that one of them is common sense from A-to-B explanation, only spelled out in detail because some people apparently need it, while the other is citing what rules say what, and what rules don't say, and cross referencing other magical items that have no bearing on the discussion at hand, and so on and so forth.


Except it's not common sense. "Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets" so surely while you're wearing those gauntlets your strength score can not be below 19? Common sense would dictate it can not be lower, as it is stated to be at that score while you wear the gauntlets.

The reason we cite the rules is because that's what they're there for, to cite in cases of disagreement.

They do have a bearing on the discussion because the wording of their rules is similar.

"Your Intelligence score is 19 while you wear this headband. It has no effect on you if your Intelligence is already 19 or higher without it."

"Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is already 19 or higher without them."

They seem like they were created with pretty similar goals in mind, or at least, that's what common sense would dictate.

[Lucadibeppo]

My thought process, which I've said before and you clearly don't agree with (but I don't think it's necessarily wrong) is as follows:

Looking at it another way: You are wearing power armor. The Power Armor is doing the heavy lifting. You encounter an effect that weakens YOU. THe power armor is not weakened, just the person inside.

I like the power armor anology, makes the most sense to me. It feels like it fits the plain language of the 5e rules. The power of the gauntlets does not get drained, they are magical and impervious to the shadow's drain.

In my game I would have the character die if the character's strength score hits zero but I understand and have no argument against the thought the gauntlets protect you from death unless you take them off without resting.

My feeling is the gauntlets could not protect your physical body from the shadow's drain ability.

[DivisibleByZero]

Ok, guys. Seriously.
I don't know why you keep saying that we're being rules lawyers here.
I mean, this text says X but not Y, and it says this but it doesn't say this, so obviously the result is that:
19-1=19
Because c'mon, it's common sense.
I'm for realzies, we're not being lawyers here.
19-1=19

I believe you were saying something about common sense.

[RSP]

Ah, but there is a difference! Not wanting to attune is different than can't attune. And this in fact supports my supposition in that if you had a STR of 20 and had the gauntlets attuned and were subsequently hit with a Strength Drain, your floor is 19.

Except the item specifically states it has no effect of 20 and over Str scores. If it was worded differently, say, "If the character's Str score is over 19, they keep the higher score," then I'd agree with you. But that's not what it says.

[Segev]

You don't have to make it any more complicated than that.
Your Str was 8 or 10 or 15 or whatever.
Now it's 19
Now you get hit by a Shadow and take 1d4 Str damage, and that makes your Str 19-1d4.
Simple.

You guys are going out of your way to make things more complicated than they really are.Okay. I'm wearing the gauntlets, have been smacked by a shadow for 4 str damage. My strength is now 15 while wearing the gauntlets. Without the gauntlets, my strength was 12 before, let's say. (Why the party let me have them when I clearly didn't need the Str is a good question, but not in the scope of this thread.)

Now, I take off the gauntlets.

Is my strength 15, 12, or 8? Why?


The difference is that one of them is common sense from A-to-B explanation, only spelled out in detail because some people apparently need it, while the other is citing what rules say what, and what rules don't say, and cross referencing other magical items that have no bearing on the discussion at hand, and so on and so forth.You do realize that "the difference is one of them is common sense, while the other actually explains where the reasoning comes from" is the same as saying "The difference between saying 2+2=4 because it's common sense and 2+2=4 because if you have two things and add two more of them you get for things is that the first is common sense and the second is pointless mathematical pedantry," right?


Dude, seriously. It's so simple. Stop trying to read between the lines when there are no lines to read between.
You know exactly what this item does.Apparently, people disagree with your "so simple" understanding of "exactly what this item does."

Falling back on "it's common sense; stop being a rules lawyer by actually quoting the rules at me" is not a logical argument. It's essentially attempting to assert your belief about the rules as strict fact, and then actively dismissing any evidence to the contrary.

"Of course that Orc murdered the farmer! It's common sense! Stop bringing up that the farmer was found dead by the man who wanted his cow on the day he came to pick it up after they'd agreed to the sale, in secret, yesterday! And that the orc wasn't even around until this afternoon, and the body was found this morning! And that the orc clearly has an axe, and the farmer was killed by poison that grows on the property of the man who found him! You're just being a lawyer! Everybody hates lawyers who try to muddy common sense with facts! It's so simple! Stop overthinking it! The orc is obviously guilty!"


Ok, guys. Seriously.
I don't know why you keep saying that we're being rules lawyers here.
I mean, this text says X but not Y, and it says this but it doesn't say this, so obviously the result is that:
19-1=19
Because c'mon, it's common sense.
I'm for realzies, we're not being lawyers here.
19-1=19

I believe you were saying something about common sense.
Heavens, yes. Because it's obviously terrible to bring actual facts to a discussion. We have common sense, which is never subjective to the person citing it, and which always is right with no disagreement except from "lawyers" who want to muddy it with measly things like "facts" and "evidence" and the actual rules.

I mean, it's also common sense that a sword does the same damage whether wielded one or two handed. So that "versatile" tag doesn't mean anything. Stop quoting rules about it to me; you're being a lawyer. Common sense is clear! What's that? You want to say that I'm wrong? Well, you can't, because citing the rules is being a lawyer, and that's just wrong. You want to claim common sense says something other than what I asserted? Well, that's silly. THAT isn't common sense. I've already told you what common sense is.

[BiPolar]

Except the item specifically states it has no effect of 20 and over Str scores. If it was worded differently, say, "If the character's Str score is over 19, they keep the higher score," then I'd agree with you. But that's not what it says.

I still assert that it doesn't say you "can't" attune to them like some magic items have requirements for attunement such as player class. You still CAN do it, they just state they have no effect if your strength is 19 or higher. Again, use my power armor analogy. The power armor is providing you with a certain amount of power. If your own is power is equal to our greater, the armor really isn't helping you. But you can still be wearing it.

[Segev]

I still assert that it doesn't say you "can't" attune to them like some magic items have requirements for attunement such as player class. You still CAN do it, they just state they have no effect if your strength is 19 or higher. Again, use my power armor analogy. The power armor is providing you with a certain amount of power. If your own is power is equal to our greater, the armor really isn't helping you. But you can still be wearing it.

"Provide no effect" doesn't mean you can't attune. Just that, even when attuned, they don't do anything for you. Which is what you're saying, I know, but I wanted to phrase my agreement in my own words.

[BiPolar]

"Provide no effect" doesn't mean you can't attune. Just that, even when attuned, they don't do anything for you. Which is what you're saying, I know, but I wanted to phrase my agreement in my own words.

I'm worried, Segev. We're agreeing on two points in this thread I believe. Dogs and cats living together.

[Segev]

I'm worried, Segev. We're agreeing on two points in this thread I believe. Dogs and cats living together.

Don't worry; I'm sure it's just you living up to your name. :smallwink:

[RSP]

"Provide no effect" doesn't mean you can't attune. Just that, even when attuned, they don't do anything for you. Which is what you're saying, I know, but I wanted to phrase my agreement in my own words.

Except "provide no effect" is not the wording of the item in question.

Someone used the analogy of a class-specific item, like say a Rod of the Pact Keeper. It's not that you can attune the item and not have the effect unless you're a Warlock, it's that you can't attune the item without having the Warlock class.

[Segev]

Except "provide no effect" is not the wording of the item in question.

Would you mind repeating the precise wording, please? I can't seem to find it right now.

[FinnS]

Let me clarify: the "wrong" statement was specifically referencing this line:


And what is wrong about it, is that wearing the Gauntlets doesn't always make your Str 19, because if it's already over 19, it doesn't do anything at all.

Apologies if that wasn't clear in my response.



Now I'd say this has some parts wrong as well. Keep in mind, the GoOP have no effect if the wearer has strength 20+. No effect includes "can't be attuned" as, by definition attuning something is an effect (of nothing else, its magic takes up 1/3 of your ability to handle these types of magic).

Therefore, you couldn't attune the GoOP with Str 20+, and they, therefore, wouldn't do anything if you were wearing them and got hit by a Shadow.

Sorry but you are absolutely 100% wrong.
There is absolutely nothing stating that you can not attune to a magic item if it provides no effect.
Want to know why I can say you're 100% wrong and this isn't just my opinion...

HAMMER OF THUNDERBOLTS
Weapon (maul), legendary
You gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made
with this magic weapon.
Giant's Bane (Requires Attunement). You must
be wearing a belt of giant strength (any variety) and
gauntlets of ogre power to attune to this weapon. The
attunement ends if you take off either of those items.
While you are attuned to this weapon and holding it,
your Strength score increases by 4 and can exceed 20,
but not 30. When you roll a 20 on an attack roll made
with this weapon against a giant, the giant must succeed
on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or die

And before someone argues that one only has to wear the Gauntlets and Belt, it was confirmed a long time ago that using the HoTB to its fullest uses all 3 of your attunements.

[RSP]

Ok, guys. Seriously.
I don't know why you keep saying that we're being rules lawyers here.
I mean, this text says X but not Y, and it says this but it doesn't say this, so obviously the result is that:
19-1=19
Because c'mon, it's common sense.
I'm for realzies, we're not being lawyers here.
19-1=19

I believe you were saying something about common sense.

Segev tackled this pretty well.

You, DBZ, are ignoring what the item does, stating it does something else, and asking how people are logically disagreeing with you.

A character's stats don't change because they put on the GoOP. If their Str was 10 prior to the Gauntlets, their actual Str is still 10, and any adjustments to that score, positive or negative, are to that score.

Separately, while wearing the Gauntlets, their Str is 19. Note nothing in the Shadow's ability, nor the Gauntlets, states this score would go down with a successful Str drain by a Shadow.

You can call it "rules lawyering" or whatever derogatory term you like, but it doesn't change the fact that we are just reading the rules and abiding by them.

[BiPolar]

Would you mind repeating the precise wording, please? I can't seem to find it right now.


Wondrous Item, uncommon (requires attunement) Your strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is already 19 or higher

There are no limiting notes in the attunement requirement.

[DivisibleByZero]

Segev tackled this pretty well.

You, DBZ, are ignoring what the item does, stating it does something else, and asking how people are logically disagreeing with you.

A character's stats don't change because they put on the GoOP. If their Str was 10 prior to the Gauntlets, their actual Str is still 10, and any adjustments to that score, positive or negative, are to that score.

Separately, while wearing the Gauntlets, their Str is 19. Note nothing in the Shadow's ability, nor the Gauntlets, states this score would go down with a successful Str drain by a Shadow.

You can call it "rules lawyering" or whatever derogatory term you like, but it doesn't change the fact that we are just reading the rules and abiding by them.

No.
What you're doing is reading things that are not printed and assuming that because it wasn't printed, that it doesn't apply in this situation.
So like I said, you're trying to read between the lines when there is nothing between the lines for you to read.
You're also saying that your Str is both 10 and 19 simultaneously, while claiming that something which affects one does not affect the other.
That's lawyering a'la legalese.
Plain English says your Str is 19. If the Shadow reduces your Str via attack, your Str goes down. Not the Gauntlet's Str, which does not exist. Your Str, which WAS 19 because of the magic, is now lower because of the Shadow.

[FinnS]

No.
What you're doing is reading things that are not printed and assuming that because it wasn't printed, that it doesn't apply in this situation.
So like I said, you're trying to read between the lines when there is nothing between the lines for you to read.
You're also saying that your Str is both 10 and 19 simultaneously, while claiming that something which affects one does not affect the other.
That's lawyering a'la legalese.
Plain English says your Str is 19. If the Shadow reduces your Str via attack, your Str goes down. Not the Gauntlet's Str, which does not exist. Your Str, which WAS 19 because of the magic, is now lower because of the Shadow.

Your STR is 19 as long as you wear the gauntlets.
THAT is plain English.
A Shadow drains you, the CREATURE, not the Gauntlets.
Specifically says Creature and this is an important distinction as it means the STR drain would have no effect on inanimate objects, magically animated objects, Constructs or anything immune to Necrotic damage.

[RSP]

No.
What you're doing is reading things that are not printed and assuming that because it wasn't printed, that it doesn't apply in this situation.
So like I said, you're trying to read between the lines when there is nothing between the lines for you to read.
You're also saying that your Str is both 10 and 19 simultaneously, while claiming that something which affects one does not affect the other.
That's lawyering a'la legalese.
Plain English says your Str is 19. If the Shadow reduces your Str via attack, your Str goes down. Not the Gauntlet's Str, which does not exist. Your Str, which WAS 19 because of the magic, is now lower because of the Shadow.

Nope. The Magic of the Gauntlet is still in effect: which is while wearing them, the character's Str is 19.

You seem to want to ignore that for some reason.

[DanyBallon]

No.
What you're doing is reading things that are not printed and assuming that because it wasn't printed, that it doesn't apply in this situation.
So like I said, you're trying to read between the lines when there is nothing between the lines for you to read.
You're also saying that your Str is both 10 and 19 simultaneously, while claiming that something which affects one does not affect the other.
That's lawyering a'la legalese.
Plain English says your Str is 19. If the Shadow reduces your Str via attack, your Str goes down. Not the Gauntlet's Str, which does not exist. Your Str, which WAS 19 because of the magic, is now lower because of the Shadow.

Not that your interpretation is wrong, but I do not like it as such reasoning will allow a character removing the gauntlet to revert to its original strength as if it was never being affected by the shadow. I prefer an interpretation where we "read between lines" and say that the shadow affect the original strength of the character.

It's just a matter of preference.

[RSP]

Sorry but you are absolutely 100% wrong.
There is absolutely nothing stating that you can not attune to a magic item if it provides no effect.
Want to know why I can say you're 100% wrong and this isn't just my opinion...


And before someone argues that one only has to wear the Gauntlets and Belt, it was confirmed a long time ago that using the HoTB to its fullest uses all 3 of your attunements.

Confirmed by whom? Not saying it's wrong, just want the citation.

Now, I'll wait on that before responding in greater detail, though I will point out, both the GoOP and the Belts do the same thing (that is set your Str at a certain level) so it is actually impossible to gain the benefit of both of these items simultaneously.

[DivisibleByZero]

Not that your interpretation is wrong, but I do not like it as such reasoning will allow a character removing the gauntlet to revert to its original strength as if it was never being affected by the shadow. I prefer an interpretation where we "read between lines" and say that the shadow affect the original strength of the character.

It's just a matter of preference.

No.
If you are wearing the gauntlets and you lose 12 points of Str, then when you take them off, if your Str was 12 or lower, you die and become a Shadow.

Str 10
Put gauntlets on > Str 19
Take 12pts of Str drain from a Shadow
Your Str = X-12 until you rest, where X is variable only because of the gauntlets
If you're wearing the gauntlets, your Str is 7
If you take them off before resolving the Str drain, you die. Period.

[Dr.Samurai]

Pegging down how this works is not rules-lawyery because it can be the difference between life and death in the game. And not only if you are or aren't immune, but also in determining which strength score is getting reduced to zero. If your strength is 10 but with the gauntlets it is 19, you want to know how many hits it will take to kill you.

Attempts to shame people for wanting to figure this out are pathetic.

Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is already 19 or higher.

It seems to me that if you apply the strength drain to the score of 19, you are deactivating the power of the Gauntlets. It says clearly that the gauntlets have no effect if your strength is 19 or higher. But if your strength score is 18 or lower, these gauntlets make it 19. Even if you were to apply the drain to the 19, the gauntlets would make it 19 again. I don't know where "common sense" says it works otherwise.

If my strength is 10, and over the course of 8 levels I bump it up to 14, I still only get a 19 strength from the gauntlets, even though my native strength is changing. Likewise, the shadow is draining my native strength, keeping it below 19, but the gauntlets keep making it 19. It's magic. It doesn't care what the shadow is doing unless the shadow is pumping my strength up to 19 or higher, at which point they cease having an effect. Until then, they have an effect while I wear them, and that is making my strength score a 19.

[DivisibleByZero]

If Ogres were immune to the Str drain of a Shadow, then I would be inclined to agree with that assessment.

[FinnS]

No.
If you are wearing the gauntlets and you lose 12 points of Str, then when you take them off, if your Str was 12 or lower, you die and become a Shadow.

Str 10
Put gauntlets on > Str 19
Take 12pts of Str drain from a Shadow
Your Str = X-12 until you rest, where X is variable only because of the gauntlets
If you're wearing the gauntlets, your Str is 7
If you take them off before resolving the Str drain, you die. Period.

I would rule that once your Natural STR went to 0 you would die regardless of the Gauntlets and that your set STR would continue to be 19 up till that point but that's me.

If you were my DM and ruled it the way you set forth here, I wouldn't argue. That's your call and either way still falls within RAW.

[FinnS]

If Ogres were immune to the Str drain of a Shadow, then I would be inclined to agree with that assessment.

Now, now, that's a terrible analogy and you know it.
Big difference between a Creature's natural STR and a magic item that magically provides you the same STR level of said Creature.

[Dr.Samurai]

An ogre's strength comes from his size, musculature, and physicality and has absolutely nothing to do with magic in any way whatsoever. Ogres are entirely irrelevant to this discussion outside of the fact that the name of the race is used to help signal the effect of the magic item.

[DivisibleByZero]

I have one last thing to say on this matter, and then I'm going to depart from this thread forever.

If these magical gauntlets were somehow intended to set your Str at 19, and nothing could lower it from that score of 19 while you were wearing them, then why didn't they word it like Barkskin?
Rules lawyers, do you have an answer?
I mean, there is very clear, crystal clear in actuality, precedent within the core rules, for how to word an ability if a feature or item sets a minimum, and that precedent is Barkskin.
So why didn't they word it that way?

Could it be, just maybe, just possibly, that you're reading far too much into it, and that it's actually much, much MUCH simpler than all of this nonsense?
If not, explain why the wording differs from that of the Barkskin spell.

Discuss.

[Segev]

No.
What you're doing is reading things that are not printed and assuming that because it wasn't printed, that it doesn't apply in this situation.Please defend this claim. What, specifically, are we "reading...that not printed and assuming that because it wasn't printed, that it doesn't apply in this situation?"

This is quite a different claim than the one you made before, which was that we were "rules lawyering" text that is there and that you were just using common sense.


So like I said, you're trying to read between the lines when there is nothing between the lines for you to read.Again: How are we doing this, specifically? What are we reading "Between the lines" that is not there?


You're also saying that your Str is both 10 and 19 simultaneously, while claiming that something which affects one does not affect the other.That's one possible treatment.

That's lawyering a'la legalese.It really isn't.

Plain English says your Str is 19. If the Shadow reduces your Str via attack, your Str goes down. Not the Gauntlet's Str, which does not exist. Your Str, which [i]WAS 19 because of the magic, is now lower because of the Shadow.Actually, plain English says that, while you wear the gauntlets, your Str is 19. Period.

It would seem to me that you're the one reading between the lines to find "but if you take str damage while wearing them, subtract that damage from the 19 these gauntlets grant you."

[Dr.Samurai]

Let's say you are a level 20 barbarian with a natural strength of 24. You are wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power because you killed some great enemy and keep them as a trophy.

You are attuned to the Gauntlets and are wearing them. But because your Strength score is above at 19 or above (in this case, 24) they have no effect.

NOW!

You're fighting some shadows and two of them hit you, each rolling a 4 on their strength damage. You take 8 damage to your strength, reducing it to 16.

Do the Gauntlets change that to 19? I think the answer is obviously YES.

[BiPolar]

I have one last thing to say on this matter, and then I'm going to depart from this thread forever.

If these magical gauntlets were somehow intended to set your Str at 19, and nothing could lower it from that score of 19 while you were wearing them, then why didn't they word it like Barkskin?
Rules lawyers, do you have an answer?
I mean, there is very clear, crystal clear in actuality, precedent within the core rules, for how to word an ability if a feature or item sets a minimum, and that precedent is Barkskin.
So why didn't they word it that way?

Could it be, just maybe, just possibly, that you're reading far too much into it, and that it's actually much, much MUCH simpler than all of this nonsense?
If not, explain why the wording differs from that of the Barkskin spell.

Discuss.

Let me throw this final discussion grenade over the wall and use a technique that I previously accused someone else of using.

Sure. Yeah. I'll get right on discussing that.

[RSP]

I have one last thing to say on this matter, and then I'm going to depart from this thread forever.

If these magical gauntlets were somehow intended to set your Str at 19, and nothing could lower it from that score of 19 while you were wearing them, then why didn't they word it like Barkskin?
Rules lawyers, do you have an answer?
I mean, there is very clear, crystal clear in actuality, precedent within the core rules, for how to word an ability if a feature or item sets a minimum, and that precedent is Barkskin.
So why didn't they word it that way?

Could it be, just maybe, just possibly, that you're reading far too much into it, and that it's actually much, much MUCH simpler than all of this nonsense?
If not, explain why the wording differs from that of the Barkskin spell.

Discuss.

Because they're different abilities, written quite possibly by different people and compiled together.

Just because one Ability states something, doesn't mean that it applies to all abilities.

GoOP states what it does, regardless of what any other Ability states: whether you're referencing the Shadow ability or Barkskin.

Too bad you'll never read this though...

[DivisibleByZero]

Because they're different abilities, written quite possibly by different people and compiled together.

Just because one Ability states something, doesn't mean that it applies to all abilities.

GoOP states what it does, regardless of what any other Ability states: whether you're referencing the Shadow Ability or Barkskin.

And yet everyone keeps tossing out the different wording from different abilities to suit their own descriptions.
So these items and abilties apply, because I want to use them for my points, but these ones over here do not apply, because my opponent wants to use them for his points.

Nice try. I'm not buying what you're selling.

[Dr.Samurai]

Let's say you are a level 20 barbarian with a natural strength of 24. You are wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power because you killed some great enemy and keep them as a trophy.

You are attuned to the Gauntlets and are wearing them. But because your Strength score is above at 19 or above (in this case, 24) they have no effect.

NOW!

You're fighting some shadows and two of them hit you, each rolling a 4 on their strength damage. You take 8 damage to your strength, reducing it to 16.

Do the Gauntlets change that to 19? I think the answer is obviously YES.
Thinking on this some more... what you're saying DBZ is to apply the penalty to both scores.

In the example I give above, the natural strength score would go down from 24 to 16.

This would activate the Gloves, which would make the strength score 19. But you're saying the gloves' score gets the penalty too. Would we then apply the -8 strength to the 19, resulting in a score of 11? Or would the gloves not activate at all? Because... reasons? How does this work according to you?

[Segev]

I have one last thing to say on this matter, and then I'm going to depart from this thread forever.Pity. I was hoping you could address my requests for citation of your claims.


If these magical gauntlets were somehow intended to set your Str at 19, and nothing could lower it from that score of 19 while you were wearing them, then why didn't they word it like Barkskin?
Rules lawyers, do you have an answer?
I mean, there is very clear, crystal clear in actuality, precedent within the core rules, for how to word an ability if a feature or item sets a minimum, and that precedent is Barkskin.
So why didn't they word it that way?

Could it be, just maybe, just possibly, that you're reading far too much into it?
If not, explain why the wording differs from that of the Barkskin spell.

Discuss.
It could be as you suggest, but that is reading well between the lines. And 5e is woefully inconsistent in its wordings. The wording of barkskin is there to establish a new minimum. The wording of the Gauntlets of Ogre Power is there to establish a set value.

They amount to the same thing.

In the end, it requires ignoring plain English, or "reading between the lines," to decide that "While you wear the gauntlets, your Str is 19" means "unless you take Str damage."


Just to really close the loop on this, if you're wearing these gauntlets and you gain a level that gives you a +2 to a stat of your choice, and you put that +2 into Str, what is your new Str?

If it is not 21 (or, well, 20, since APIs can't raise you above that), why is taking 4 Str damage while wearing them going to lower your Str to 15?

Either 19 is a fixed value that cannot be changed, or it is a new base value which can be.

If it cannot be changed, the API applies to your real, un-Gauntleted strength. As long as your real Str remains less than 19, the gauntlets set you to 19. Likewise, any Str damage you take lowers your Str, but since your Str is below 19, the Gauntlets kick in to set you to 19.

If it is a new base stat, then it works as you say for Str damage, but adding APIs while wearing them should also let you push your Str to 20. At which point the Gauntlets don't reset you to 19, because they don't do anything for you if your str is 20. Which it now is. This is actually somewhat degenerate as a state, because it raises a question as to whether removing the Gauntlets should lower your Str to what it was before, to what it was before +1 or +2, or what. Also, if them "not doing anything for you" translates to dropping you to your old Str, which makes your Str below 19, which makes them kick in, which ... cycles ad neaseum.

[JBPuffin]

So, I skipped two pages after the DivisibleByZero debacle began...holy cow, this disintegrated quickly. DBZ, thank you for stepping out.

I'm seeing the shadow's drain coming off natural strength, which Gauntlets change temporarily so they'll sustain you as long as you wear them (meaning a Shadow really ought to be trying to disarm you of them...except for the attuning thing, which I agree with as well). AMF kills you, though...could the Shadow wear the gloves? That'd make things so much worse, but their incorporeal nature suggests that's unlikely.

The attuning rule does suggest that a returning weapon you had to attune to wouldn't need much rule-breaking to remain attuned while it's out of your hands, which is nifty. Anyone up for a Returning Throwing Shield? :smallwink:

[RSP]

And yet everyone keeps tossing out the different wording from different abilities to suit their own descriptions.
So these items and abilties apply, because I want to use them for my points, but these ones over here do not apply, because my opponent wants to use them for his points.

Nice try. I'm not buying what you're selling.

I thought you were gone from this thread forever? Liar.

I'm not including any Ability other than what is stated in GoOP, which you constantly ignore, which is: "Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets."

You get hit by a Shadow and take 4 Str damage. Are you wearing the Gauntlets? Yes: well then your Str score is 19.

[DanyBallon]

No.
If you are wearing the gauntlets and you lose 12 points of Str, then when you take them off, if your Str was 12 or lower, you die and become a Shadow.

Str 10
Put gauntlets on > Str 19
Take 12pts of Str drain from a Shadow
Your Str = X-12 until you rest, where X is variable only because of the gauntlets
If you're wearing the gauntlets, your Str is 7
If you take them off before resolving the Str drain, you die. Period.

I've hard time following you, in one post you say that there is only one strength score (the one when wearing the gauntlet), then in an other you consider to different strength score... I there was only a single score, the drain would reduce your strength starting from 19 (the new score you get when wearing the gauntlet) as it is your current score. If you remove the gauntlets, your new current score is the score you originally had prior to put the gauntlets on as this is your new current score and the damage was already applied.

On the other hand, if you consider that there is an original score and a modified one, you can rule that the damage affects both or only the original score. I prefer the later. But nothing in the text favors one over the other. Only the ruling of Crawford on the Headband of Intellect gives us an indication of RAI.

[RSP]

Only the ruling of Crawford on the Headband of Intellect gives us an indication of RAI.

For reference:

Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford

@jakejnelson The ability increase ignores the headband. It is increasing the score on your character sheet.

Clearly the idea is that the static 19 isn't the Character's new score (that is, what's listed on the PC's character sheet).

If ASI's don't effect the static score, why would you assume negatives do?

[DivisibleByZero]

That twitter thread has already been discussed in this thread. Bringing it up again isn't helping because it was no help in the first place.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21841654&postcount=49



After a search for SA this seems to be Jeremy Crawford's opinion as well:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/29/level-up-increasing-ability-and-magic-item-that-rise-ability-score/

Ability Score Increases that you gain every four levels and Ability Drain/Damage that you suffer are two completely separate things. I understand that you were specifically referring to the "overwrites what's on your sheet" part of it, but that stated to explain the answer to someone that wasn't getting it.
If you try to apply it here, you very well may be taking it out of context to the point that it is no longer applicable.
Apples and Oranges, as they say.

Basically, the example you're citing as confirmations went like this:
Question: (insert here)
Answer version 1: he doesn't get it
Answer version 2: he doesn't get it
Answer version 3: he doesn't get it
Answer version 4: okay, I think he's got it

Hey, look guys! This thing we're discussing, which has nothing to do with the question asked on twitter, has confirmation in answer #4!

Except that answer may very well not be true in this case, because it took so long to get there and may have just been explained that way so that this guy would "get it," and in reality has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.
I'll wait for the answer to the question as I posed it a few hours ago, where there will be no room for error.


https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/844967061910704128

[Segev]

Ultimately, the plain English reading still is, "While wearing the Gauntlets, your Strength is 19."

Consequences of this being damageable (and how consistency requires that interact with ASIs) have been discussed, as have consequences of this being read simply as truth (which involves your Str still being 19 even if you take Str damage, because you're still wearing the Gauntlets).

[DivisibleByZero]

Ultimately, the plain English reading still is, "While wearing the Gauntlets, your Strength is 19."

Consequences of this being damageable (and how consistency requires that interact with ASIs) have been discussed, as have consequences of this being read simply as truth (which involves your Str still being 19 even if you take Str damage, because you're still wearing the Gauntlets).

Then explain the Barkskin discrepancy.
And don't tell me that there isn't one or that it isn't relevant, because you're using ASIs, which have zero to do with ability drain, to bolster your argument. So precedent about setting a minimum score is certainly relevant, even more so than ASIs.

[Dr.Samurai]

Then explain the Barkskin discrepancy.
And don't tell me that there isn't one or that it isn't relevant, because you're using ASIs, which have zero to do with ability drain, to bolster your argument. So precedent about setting a minimum score is certainly relevant, even more so than ASIs.
DBZ, we have the language clearly on our side. It's plain English. While wearing the gauntlets, your strength score is 19. This effect ends only if your regular strength rises to 19 or higher. Otherwise, the effect is always on and makes your strength 19.

That's it. You have to argue that point.

The only reason ASIs get brought in is because you are arguing that the magic score gets adjusted as if it were a regular ability score. But we don't need to bring in ASIs.

Frankly, for someone accusing others of being lawyers, I'm surprised you're bringing up "precedents".

[Segev]

Then explain the Barkskin discrepancy.
And don't tell me that there isn't one or that it isn't relevant, because you're using ASIs, which have zero to do with ability drain, to bolster your argument. So precedent about setting a minimum score is certainly relevant, even more so than ASIs.

Show me how barkskin interacts with Str.

It doesn't, plainly.

You're bringing it up because it has an explicit clause where the Gauntlets do not, for a similar effect on two unrelated game numbers.

ASIs are relevant because they have an impact on the exact same game number as the Shadow's damage: Strength. Treating changes to Strength consistently is important.

Failure to include a redundant clause in one case when the clause was included in another, unrelated case is not indicative that the redundant clause's lack means that the plain English reading of the rule lacking the redundant clause has some unwritten rule applied to it.


I have now demonstrated why ASIs are relevant when discussing damage to a stat that is set by a magic item, and why the argument that barkskin saying AC can't be reduced below 16 doesn't mean that Gauntlets of Ogre Strength stating that your Str is 19 while you wear them CAN be changed; they're unrelated except in that both set a value.

The fact that both are treated the same despite one saying "cannot be below 16" and the other saying "is 19, but has no effect if your strength is already 19 or higher" is not inconsistent logically nor in plain English reading of the two effects.

[RSP]

Then explain the Barkskin discrepancy.
And don't tell me that there isn't one or that it isn't relevant, because you're using ASIs, which have zero to do with ability drain, to bolster your argument. So precedent about setting a minimum score is certainly relevant, even more so than ASIs.

Nothing to explain as there is no discrepancy. Barkskin states what it does, which is to set a minimum AC of 16.

GoOP doesn't set a minimum, it sets an exact number. It also specifically states if the character's Str score is higher than that, it doesn't do anything.

So you could have an AC of 13, cast Barkskin and have an AC of 16. You could then Shield and have an AC of 18 (13+5) for a limited amount of time, and when that time expires, go back to AC 16 from the Barkskin.

This is a completely different effect from GoOP, hence, different rules.

Anything else unrelated to the current discussion you want explained? Like how come you need cover to hide, or something like that?

[DivisibleByZero]

19-1=19
Got it.

[Dr.Samurai]

19-1=19
Got it.
You have no argument.
Got it.

Also, I think, according to his sig, I've been put on his ignore list? :smalleek:

[RSP]

19-1=19
Got it.

Is that the extent of your response? Basically that D&D 5e rules, when put into poorly expressed math equations, can be weird?

Guess you got all of us.

Other than that, hopefully we've answered the OP's question of how the two effects: GoOP and a Shadow's ability drain, would play out.

[Syll]

The shadows drain the natural strength score of the individual, while their effective strength is 19 due to the Gauntlets. They either die if their normal strength is reduced to 0 despite the Gauntlets making their strength 19, or they die if they remove their Gauntlets before they take a short or long rest.


This seems like the most logical interpretation to me.

[shadow_archmagi]

I like the idea of the gauntlets functioning like an exoskeleton- Giving the user the same amount of power regardless of their body. To this end, I'd definitely go with the version where you survive, but must wear the gloves at all times. Clearly the better story.

[Squiddish]

The ogre gauntlets don't alter your strength, they overwrite it with a constant.
In other words, STR-1=Error, invalid operation

As for the OP, I'm partial to the "you're alive as long as you wear the gauntlets"

[Vogonjeltz]

And what is wrong about it, is that wearing the Gauntlets doesn't always make your Str 19, because if it's already over 19, it doesn't do anything at all.

Apologies if that wasn't clear in my response.

No worries!

That clause is always active. The gauntlets are always checking to see if Str is <19 and, if so, setting it to 19. All that phrase does is prevent Str from dipping below 19 without restricting its increase. Sorry if that wasn't clear from the way I stated it previously.


So, what happens when the character gains HAM, or just adds +1 with an ASI? If there's no distinction between Str scores, then the character's Str becomes 20, which would mean the GoOS would have "no effect," and the character could then pass the GoOS to someone new, keeping their 20 Str, who could also then increase their Str, and likewise pass the GoOS, so on and so forth.

If their Strength exceeds 19 with the feat/ASI then the gauntlets don't decrease it.

If the Strength is below 19, the Gauntlets set it to 19.

The point is, in no case can anything change the score to be less than 19.


Any further STR drains would continue to take away from their natural score until they reached 0 at which time they would die regardless of the gauntlets.

For all intents and purposes there's no such thing as the "natural" strength score, just the Strength score, if the score is over 19, the guantlets do nothing, if they (at any time) reduce below 19, the gauntlets take hold setting the score to 19.

So, no matter how much drain is accumulated, the score is then set to 19. If they are removed, score reverts, at which point drain might kill, but the items themselves don't make a distinction between score without gauntlets and score with guantlets as being natural or enhanced, they just reference the score being a particular way while the gauntlets are worn.


Therefore, you couldn't attune the GoOP with Str 20+, and they, therefore, wouldn't do anything if you were wearing them and got hit by a Shadow.

You can attune, it just wouldn't do anything until something reduced Str to 18 or less.


Okay. I'm wearing the gauntlets, have been smacked by a shadow for 4 str damage. My strength is now 15 while wearing the gauntlets. Without the gauntlets, my strength was 12 before, let's say. (Why the party let me have them when I clearly didn't need the Str is a good question, but not in the scope of this thread.)

Now, I take off the gauntlets.

Is my strength 15, 12, or 8? Why?

Moreover, let's say your Strength was 12, get hit for 4, ok it's 8....now you put on Gauntlets. It should be 19, is the claim that it's only 15? That doesn't make any sense.

This says, to me at least, that the gauntlets make you magically as strong as an Ogre no matter what other effects might be applied to the character. In the same way, the Headband of Intellect would protect against Feeblemind (for intelligence at least).


Plain English says your Str is 19. If the Shadow reduces your Str via attack, your Str goes down. Not the Gauntlet's Str, which does not exist. Your Str, which WAS 19 because of the magic, is now lower because of the Shadow.

They can't be lower, by the wording of the gauntlets the strength is 19. If Shadow would reduce, that reduction gets ignored while those gauntlets are on.

[KorvinStarmast]

You guys are going out of your way to make things more complicated than they really are. It's the GiTP way, and (in my experience) the 3.x way. (Part of why 3.x was sent packing at second hand books ...).

Let's say you are a level 20 barbarian with a natural strength of 24. You are wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power because you killed some great enemy and keep them as a trophy.

You are attuned to the Gauntlets and are wearing them. But because your Strength score is above at 19 or above (in this case, 24) they have no effect.

NOW!

You're fighting some shadows and two of them hit you, each rolling a 4 on their strength damage. You take 8 damage to your strength, reducing it to 16.

Do the Gauntlets change that to 19? I think the answer is obviously YES.
The answer is not available until you answer me this: Did You Attune The Gauntlets? (Please read DMG page 171). If you wear them but don't attune them then they behave like cool leather gaunts: great trophy, no magic.

As an aside: If you have a 24 Str and You attune those gauntlets, at level 20, your character has bigger problems (like being a stereotype stupid barbarian) since there are only 3 attunables on you and at that level you are likely to have come across quite a few. Then again, if you only have two others, maybe you attune these ... because that's the magic item you have. So, there you are, 20th level Barb, fighting Shadows.
Really? This is a problem for you? (And just out of curiosity, what's you cleric doing? Undead, CR 1/2, he's banished/destroyed them with a wave of his hand)

That said "I like to play my barbarians stupid" is a valid approach to the game. Seen it done in previous editions, and some neat RP can ensue.

[Dr.Samurai]

The answer is not available until you answer me this: Did You Attune The Gauntlets? (Please read DMG page 171).
The answer is right there in the post you quoted. (Please read the post you quoted.)

As an aside: If you have a 24 Str and You attune those gauntlets, at level 20, your character has bigger problems (like being a stereotype stupid barbarian) since there are only 3 attunables on you and at that level you are likely to have come across quite a few. Then again, if you only have two others, maybe you attune these ... because that's the magic item you have. So, there you are, 20th level Barb, fighting Shadows.
Really? This is a problem for you? (And just out of curiosity, what's you cleric doing? Undead, CR 1/2, he's banished/destroyed them with a wave of his hand)

What exactly was unclear? Your native strength is 24. The Gauntlets are currently having no effect. Shadows reduce your native strength to 16.

Do the Gauntlets take effect?
If yes, is your score 19? Or is it 11? Or is it 16? Please explain why.
If no, why don't they take effect?

[RSP]

Just saw this on SA and thought it relevant (though it looks like the primary debate is over):

Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford
Here's a simpler way of saying the same thing: one effect doesn't turn off another unless a rule says it does. #DnD

[Zanos]

Just saw this on SA and thought it relevant (though it looks like the primary debate is over):

Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford
Here's a simpler way of saying the same thing: one effect doesn't turn off another unless a rule says it does. #DnD
That would seem to imply that the gauntlets don't "turn off" the strength drain, unless I'm misreading.

[Dr.Samurai]

Rather, the strength drain doesn't turn off the gauntlets. As long as your strength is under 19, the gauntlets set your strength to 19.

[Segev]

19-1=19
Got it.

Nope.

while(Str < 19)
{set(Str=19);}

So, when Str--, now Str==18.

18<19, so set(Str=19), per the While loop.


(Yes, this is atrocious programming pseudocode, but I hope it gets the point across.)

[RSP]

Rather, the strength drain doesn't turn off the gauntlets. As long as your strength is under 19, the gauntlets set your strength to 19.

That's what I was going with, though, for the record, I'm in the actual Str still gets effected with a result of 0=dead. Until 0, the character would maintain the effective Str of 19.

[Segev]

That's what I was going with, though, for the record, I'm in the actual Str still gets effected with a result of 0=dead. Until 0, the character would maintain the effective Str of 19.

Why?

He has Str 19; why is he dead?

[RSP]

His character sheet says 12. When the Shadow attacks and does X damage, it comes off the character sheet score, same as the ASI would raise the character sheet score (per Crawford's tweet). And once the negatives add up to no character sheet Str remaining (that is, 0 Str), the Shadow's Ability tells us what happens: the character dies.

Just like the Shadow's ability doesn't negate the Gauntlets' magic, the Gauntlets wouldn't keep a 0 Str character alive, because it doesn't specifically say it would counter the Shadow's Ability damage.

[Beelzebubba]

Nobody asked me, but I'd rule that the gauntlets are stated to say 'they make it 19, and only 19, no matter what it was before', so I interpret that to mean 'they make it 19, and only 19, not matter what else is going on now' too.

So, while you're wearing them, your Strength stays 19 for combat purposes. But, your real bodily strength is getting drained. When that hits 0, you die.

As a DM I'd narrate it as 'you feel *horrible* and hollow and weak and feel your life ebbing away but the gauntlets keep things going beyond your volition'.

--

But, since there is some ambiguity, if I were in a game and the DM ruled otherwise, I'd disagree, but I'd be cool with it. There is a bit of ambiguity, so this stuff will happen.

However, a good chunk of D&D is social, so it's an opportunity to practice social skills in a way that maintains friendships even when you may disagree. So being gracious in these rule discussions is a real life skill that some people could learn.

Ahem.

[Vogonjeltz]

His character sheet says 12. When the Shadow attacks and does X damage, it comes off the character sheet score, same as the ASI would raise the character sheet score (per Crawford's tweet). And once the negatives add up to no character sheet Str remaining (that is, 0 Str), the Shadow's Ability tells us what happens: the character dies.

Just like the Shadow's ability doesn't negate the Gauntlets' magic, the Gauntlets wouldn't keep a 0 Str character alive, because it doesn't specifically say it would counter the Shadow's Ability damage.

No such distinction is made, while wearing the gauntlets your strength score is 19. That means your real strength score is immutably 19 while wearing them. Take them off and it's another thing entirely.

[Pex]

It's the GiTP way, and (in my experience) the 3.x way. (Part of why 3.x was sent packing at second hand books ...).


Foul.

Inappropriate edition bashing of irrelevancy. There was no need for this.

[pwykersotz]

When you got into a fight with a shadow back in the day and the DM puts a time limit on your attunement to your Gauntlets of Strength:

https://archive-media.nyafuu.org/vp/image/1474/39/1474399766823.gif

[RSP]

No such distinction is made, while wearing the gauntlets your strength score is 19. That means your real strength score is immutably 19 while wearing them. Take them off and it's another thing entirely.

That's why I used the Crawford ruling:

Aug 30, 2015
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson If you increase your Intelligence to 19 or higher while wearing a headband of intellect, the item ceases to affect you.

Aug 30, 2015
Jake Nelson‏ @jakejnelson
@JeremyECrawford But if I have the headband on, and I put a point in Intelligence, does it go to 20 or stay at 19?

in reply to @jakejnelson
@jakejnelson The headband has no effect on the score on your character sheet. The item effectively overwrites a score lower than 19.
12:51 PM · Aug 30, 2015

Aug 30, 2015
Jake Nelson‏ @jakejnelson
@JeremyECrawford So the score would become 20?

Aug 30, 2015
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The ability increase ignores the headband. It is increasing the score on your character sheet.


So the distinction is made, that is, adjustments add or subtract from the character sheet score (the non-Gauntlet score).

[FinnS]

Why?

He has Str 19; why is he dead?

Look, there's no right or wrong answer here. We can (and have) go round and round on this all day and have no end in sight as almost every opinion presented in this thread still falls within RAW.
It's going to be up to your DM to rule how it will work at his/her table.

As far as your question here, as a DM, I would rule that once your natural STR/body reaches 0, you are dead and there's no longer something for the Gauntlets to empower.

[Segev]

Look, there's no right or wrong answer here. We can (and have) go round and round on this all day and have no end in sight as almost every opinion presented in this thread still falls within RAW.
It's going to be up to your DM to rule how it will work at his/her table.

As far as your question here, as a DM, I would rule that once your natural STR/body reaches 0, you are dead and there's no longer something for the Gauntlets to empower.

Fair enough.

[Sigreid]

I'm of the camp that items like this set a minimum. So, when your natural strength is drained to zero you'll still have 19 str, but you can't take the gauntlets off until you get your strength restored to at least on or you will die. I'm also of the opinion that even when the item is attuned, it only gives benefit when it is worn. Yes, this also means that a headband of intellect is a godsend for the 8 int fighter confronted by intellect devourers.

[Arkhios]

I'll have to chime back and point out that 5e was designed to be simple and straightforward. To me, that implies that the intention of items like GoOP is crystal clear: There is no sp... err, extra "layer" of strength. Without gauntlets you have your natural strength, whatever it is. With gauntlets your strength is 19 (if natural is less). Period.

Strength damage carries over to your natural IF you somehow manage to get yourself unattuned before next short rest. Otherwise, you die if your strength drops to 0 from 19.

Why try to make it any more complex than that? Keep it simple and play on.

[Pex]

I'll have to chime back and point out that 5e was designed to be simple and straightforward. To me, that implies that the intention of items like GoOP is crystal clear: There is no sp... err, extra "layer" of strength. Without gauntlets you have your natural strength, whatever it is. With gauntlets your strength is 19 (if natural is less). Period.

Strength damage carries over to your natural IF you somehow manage to get yourself unattuned before next short rest. Otherwise, you die if your strength drops to 0 from 19.

Why try to make it any more complex than that? Keep it simple and play on.

Because some DMs have a knee-jerk reaction of worrying players get away with something unearned. A magic item circumventing a monster ability feels like cheating. It's not, but when the DM is denied something, in this case the ability to drain away strength as a mortal threat to a PC, he feels a loss of control. It's not about wanting to kill the PC but the annoyance of the autolose to the player.

[Arkhios]

Because some DMs have a knee-jerk reaction of worrying players get away with something unearned. A magic item circumventing a monster ability feels like cheating. It's not, but when the DM is denied something, in this case the ability to drain away strength as a mortal threat to a PC, he feels a loss of control. It's not about wanting to kill the PC but the annoyance of the autolose to the player.

Well, I can understand that. Kind of. But since magic items cannot be bought (RAW) unless (or even when) a DM chose to allow it, it's up to DM if he or she wants to reward his or her players with such items. It's all on the DM if he or she feels cheated. Why on earth reward cheat items if you don't like being cheated? :smallwink:

[DivisibleByZero]

Why try to make it any more complex than that? Keep it simple and play on.

Because that leave us with:
19-1=19
Which is not the simplest answer.

Keeping it simple, 19-1=18

[Arkhios]

Because that leave us with:
19-1=19
Which is not the simplest answer.

Keeping it simple, 19-1=18

What the **** have you people been eating? I want some! :smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Samurai]

Because that leave us with:
19-1=19
Which is not the simplest answer.

Keeping it simple, 19-1=18
In your example "keeping it simple" equates to "ignore other components".

Here is how it *actually* works, and it is still "simple". I guarantee everyone will be able to follow it:

19 - 1 = 18
18 < 19
Gauntlets make Strength 19

Done. So simple. So RAW. Indisputable even.

[Keltest]

Why?

He has Str 19; why is he dead?

Because the physical matter that makes up his being has been drained to the point of being unable to sustain his life, irrespective of what the magic does or does not allow him to lift.

At least, that's how I run it. You aren't feeling any negative effects because the gauntlets compensate for it, but the damage is still there, will accumulate, and will kill you eventually if left untreated.

[Coffee_Dragon]

DMs have a knee-jerk reaction of worrying
when the DM is denied something
he feels a loss of control.

Foul.

Inappropriate amateur psychology of irrelevancy. There was no need for this.

[tKUUNK]

Once the true strength score drops to 0, make it so it can never be fixed without some epic quest.

Creates a wonderful roleplay opportunity of, "I can never takes these off, or I die."

side quest, go! I like this idea.

[Arkhios]

In your example "keeping it simple" equates to "ignore other components".

Here is how it *actually* works, and it is still "simple". I guarantee everyone will be able to follow it:

19 - 1 = 18
18 < 19
Gauntlets make Strength 19

Done. So simple. So RAW. Indisputable even.

Exactly what "other components" are ignored?


GAUNTLETS OF OGRE POWER
Wondrous item, uncommon (requires attunement)
Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is already 19 or higher.

The way you think it works would be worth a legendary item, but definitely not an item of uncommon rarity.

In my honest opinion, your interpretation seems awful lot like wishful thinking and an attempt to "cheat the rules".

[Keltest]

Exactly what "other components" are ignored?



The way you think it works would be worth a legendary item, but definitely not an item of uncommon rarity.

In my sincerely honest opinion, your interpretation seems awful lot like wishful thinking and an attempt to "cheat the rules".

He's ignoring the part where the Gauntlets set your strength to 19 if it isn't 19. Its a continual magic benefit of the gauntlets that your strength is at least 19.

"Your strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets."

There isn't a lot of room for ambiguity there. Anything that would adversely affect your strength cannot bring it below 19 while you wear the gauntlets, because they bring it right back up to 19.

[DivisibleByZero]

He's ignoring the part where the Gauntlets set your strength to 19 if it isn't 19. Its a continual magic benefit of the gauntlets that your strength is at least 19.

"Your strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets."

There isn't a lot of room for ambiguity there. Anything that would adversely affect your strength cannot bring it below 19 while you wear the gauntlets, because they bring it right back up to 19.

In ignoring that because.... Well... because it doesn't say that anywhere and you are all reading something that isn't printed.
The simplest answer is that 19-1=18

[Keltest]

In ignoring that because.... Well... because it doesn't say that anywhere and you are all reading something that isn't printed.
The simplest answer is that 19-1=18

It doenst... That is the literal text from the item description in the DMG. I just went and looked it up. The description is an absolute statement with no conditions, caveats or exceptions attached, save that it will not affect you if your str is already 19 or higher.

You can disagree that it should be that, or that its misclassified in power, or that they should have named it after a dragon, or a mountain, or whatever else you want, but the text is right there, and flat out says that as long as you are wearing the gauntlets and your strength score is normally less than 19, then your strength is set to 19, no ifs ands or buts about it.

[Dr.Samurai]

Exactly what "other components" are ignored?
The effect of the magic item of course.

The way you think it works would be worth a legendary item, but definitely not an item of uncommon rarity.
I'm not familiar enough with 5e balance to say one way or another. It is irrelevant to me in refuting the notion that the most simple and common sense answer is that the gloves simply stop working when you suffer strength drain.

In my honest opinion, your interpretation seems awful lot like wishful thinking and an attempt to "cheat the rules".
Yeah, that's fine Arkhios. I don't like magic items that boost my ability scores because I don't like the idea of depending on a magic item for something integral to my character concept. So I highly doubt I will ever have an opportunity to "cheat the rules" as you say. Motives, whether yours or mine, don't really factor into this for me. I'm just reading what the item does. It makes your Strength 19 unless your normal strength is 19 or higher.

DBZ has refused to explain how his simple solution would work in the scenario I presented with the barbarian. So did KorvinStarmast. Because it isn't true that that is the most simple answer. It is only simple insofar as you ignore everything else. It's a "throw your hands in the air and yell this is how we're doing it" type of answer. Which is fine. So long as you don't pretend it's simple and straightforward and common sense.

[RSP]

In ignoring that because.... Well... because it doesn't say that anywhere and you are all reading something that isn't printed.
The simplest answer is that 19-1=18

Yeah bolding something doesn't, apparently, make it true.

You're completely ignoring the text of what the item does, and two official rulings.

By all means, houserule and homebrew as you feel you need, DBZ, but there's no reason to try and argue that it's RAW, when we've clearly shown the rules and designer's intent.

[DivisibleByZero]

but the text is right there, and flat out says that as long as you are wearing the gauntlets and your strength score is normally less than 19, then your strength is set to 19, no ifs ands or buts about it.
But it doesn't say that Str drain doesn't apply. That's how some of you are interpreting it, but it doesn't say that.


DBZ has refused to explain how his simple solution would work in the scenario I presented with the barbarian. So did KorvinStarmast. Because it isn't true that that is the most simple answer. It is only simple insofar as you ignore everything else. It's a "throw your hands in the air and yell this is how we're doing it" type of answer. Which is fine. So long as you don't pretend it's simple and straightforward and common sense.
I have no idea what barbarian thing you're referring to, which is why I haven't responded to it. Care to ask again?


You're completely ignoring the text of what the item does, and two official rulings.

By all means, houserule and homebrew as you feel you need, DBZ, but there's no reason to try and argue that it's RAW, when we've clearly shown the rules and designer's intent.
Two official rulings? About what? Because they weren't about Magical Str and ability drain/damage.
The fact is that you have zero official rulings and zero evidence what RAI is. So at this point every DM is working off of fiat and no one is technically wrong.
Get off your high horse.

[Segev]

"While wearing these gauntlets, your Str is 19."

"It doesn't say anywhere that if your Str is reduced below 19, it stays at 19!"

The second sentence is false. If your Str is reduced, but you're wearing the gauntlets, the gauntlets still say that your Str is 19.

It's really no more complicated than that. Are you wearing the gauntlets? Would your Str without them be less than 19? If "yes" to both of these, then your Str is 19.

Did something reduce your Str? Would that put you below 19 Str? Are you wearing the gauntlets? If "yes" to all three of these, then your Str is 19.

Let's say you have a native Str of 20, and are wearing the Gauntlets (for some reason). Because your Str is greater than or equal to 19, the Gauntlets do nothing; you have a Str of 20. A shadow hits you for 2 Str damage. This reduces your Str 20 to 18. Because your Str is less than 19, the Gauntlets make your Str 19. That shadow hits you again, this time for 4 Str damage. As you have Str 19, this would reduce you to 15 Str. As this would make your Str less than 19, the Gauntlets make your Str 19.

This assumes, of course, that "damage" isn't something you accumulate; it just does an instantaneous reduction in your damaged ability score. If, on the other hand, you actually "accumulate" damage, then the process is:

You have native 20 Str, but are wearing the Gauntlets anyway. Because your Str is greater than or equal to 19, the Gauntlets do nothing; you have a Str of 20. A shadow hits you for 2 Str damage. As you now have 2 Str damage, your Str would be 20-2, or 18. But the Gauntlets see that you're at less than 19 Str, so they set you to 19 Str while you wear them. If that shadow hits you again for 4 Str damage, you now have a total of 6 Str damage. Your Str would be 20-6=14, but that puts your Str below 19, so the Gauntlets set you to 19 Str.

Under the second model, the damage as a persistent effect means that removing the Gauntlets would set you to 20-(damage). Under the first model, removing the Gauntlets would leave you at 19 Str until you healed back up to your maximum of 20 (or you took additional damage).

[BurgerBeast]

I'm in the camp that says that if you are drained of strength, your functional score remains at 19 until your actual score reaches 0, at which point you die.

This appears to put me in the same camp as Segev and Arkhios, and in opposition to DBZ. However, there is something I read that highlights what appears to be an obvious discrepancy to me, and it's this:


I'll have to chime back and point out that 5e was designed to be simple and straightforward. To me, that implies that the intention of items like GoOP is crystal clear: There is no sp... err, extra "layer" of strength. Without gauntlets you have your natural strength, whatever it is. With gauntlets your strength is 19 (if natural is less). Period.

Strength damage carries over to your natural IF you somehow manage to get yourself unattuned before next short rest. Otherwise, you die if your strength drops to 0 from 19.

Why try to make it any more complex than that? Keep it simple and play on.

While I think I know what you mean and I agree with you, you've explained it in a way that only makes DBZ's point more apparent.

There either is an extra layer or there isn't. If there is, then there is a real score and a gauntlet score of 19. If there isn't, there's only the 19. So your logic, here, doesn't hold.

I accept that there are two "layers." You can argue over whether that is more complicated than one layer, but "simple and straightforward" doesn't have to mean that one score is simpler than two. Two can be simpler because one leads to more complications. Aside from that, accuracy can trump simplicity.

If you take the stance that there is really only one score because that's simpler, then the 19-1=18 challenge is an appropriate challenge to your stance. If you take the view that there are, in fact, still two meaningful strength scores, then the 19-1=18 stance is easily refuted because 19-1 never occurs. Str-1 occurs.

Edit:

So there is a serious semantic problem here over the question: "Is your strength 19?"

Let's say you're playing a rogue with 12 strength, but you have gauntlets on. I would have thought the answer should be:

"Yes"

But I'm not of that opinion any more. Now I'd say:

"No. My strength is 12. As long as I wear the gauntlets it's functionally 19."

[Segev]

I don't think there are two "layers."

The question, to me, is whether you track "amount of damage you currently have," or simply apply damage instantaneously and track "current v. maximum value."

The way most people tend to track damage is simply current/maximum, and in most cases this is exactly equivalent to tracking "damage taken" and applying it as a penalty to the maximum value. But when you have something that says, "If your value is below Y, set it to Y," it creates an actual difference between the two versions.

If you track it as "current/maximum," then the guy who has the gauntlets on has Str damage "healed" instantly up to 19. If you track it as "accumulated damage," then the guy who has the gauntlets on still has all that damage, but when (maximum-damage)<19, the gauntlets keep him at 19 as long as he's wearing them.

If you track it as current/maximum, and his maximum is less than 19, then do all the Str damage you like to him while he's wearing the gauntlets; they keep resetting him to 19. When he takes them off, he's at his normal maximum (which is less than 19). If his normal maximum is greater than 19, the gauntlets do nothing for him when he's above 19. But if you damage him to below 19, the gauntlets kick in. When he takes them off, he's still at 19, because the Str damage he had taken earlier to get down to there wasn't undone. He has to heal that normally.

If you track it as "accumulated damage," however, the formula to calculate his Str while wearing the gauntlets is: max((maximum-damage),19). When he takes off the gauntlets, the formula becomes: (maximum-damage).

The "accumulated damage" version would mean somebody who'd taken damage>=maximum can't take off the gauntlets without dying and becoming a shadow. The "current/maximum" version would mean that taking off the gauntlets leaves him at min(maximum,19).


So there is a serious semantic problem here over the question: "Is your strength 19?"

Let's say you're playing a rogue with 12 strength, but you have gauntlets on. I would have thought the answer should be:

"Yes"

But I'm not of that opinion any more. Now I'd say:

"No. My strength is 12. As long as I wear the gauntlets it's functionally 19."
I completely disagree. The gauntlets flat-out say your Str is 19. Not "effective Str" or any euphamism for the same notion. While you wear them, unless your Str was 19 or greater already, your Str becomes 19.

Which is why the question of whether you accumulate Str damage, or simply track current Str vs maximum Str, with "current" instantly modified when you take Str damage.

[DivisibleByZero]

My biggest problem is the fact that anyone (and I do mean anyone) can possibly claim that 19-1=19 is the "simplest" answer.

[BurgerBeast]

I completely disagree. The gauntlets flat-out say your Str is 19. Not "effective Str" or any euphamism for the same notion. While you wear them, unless your Str was 19 or greater already, your Str becomes 19.

Which is why the question of whether you accumulate Str damage, or simply track current Str vs maximum Str, with "current" instantly modified when you take Str damage.

Okay, so I was mistaken in how we view the spell's function as well. Apologies for the misrepresentation.

Here's my point then. If you think the strength score is replaced, then we can cross out the 12, and replace it with 19. When the character takes the gauntlets off, how do you know what he character's strength is? You had to be tracking the 12 in order to know to return to it.

In terms of computer science, you need a natural strength variable and a functional strength variable.

If you only have a strength variable, then as soon as you put the gauntlets on, and Str := 19, then the previous value of 12 is gone, overwritten by the program. When the gauntlets come off, there is no place to look to find the correct strength.

Additionally, if strength is actually set to 19 by the gauntlets, then ASIs which increase strength need a strength score to apply to. If there is no record of the 12, then the ASI must add to the 19.

Where have I gone wrong, here?

[Arkhios]

My biggest problem is the fact that anyone (and I do mean anyone) can possibly claim that 19-1=19 is the "simplest" answer.

Mine as well. This would, in the same "simple" way imply that the character wearing the gauntlets is "immune" to strength damage/drain/reduction below 19, which is something the item doesn't say.
I stay by my ruling that by the rule of omission, the damage/drain/reduction must still apply and it does, from 19.

I really hope that they would give a clear answer to this (and many other) question, instead of giving something vague, leaving it to the reader to decipher.

[RSP]

But it doesn't say that Str drain doesn't apply. That's how some of you are interpreting it, but it doesn't say that.


I have no idea what barbarian thing you're referring to, which is why I haven't responded to it. Care to ask again?


Two official rulings? About what? Because they weren't about Magical Str and ability drain/damage.
The fact is that you have zero official rulings and zero evidence what RAI is. So at this point every DM is working off of fiat and no one is technically wrong.
Get off your high horse.

Let me hold your hand and walk you through this, point by point as you seem to want to ignore most of what's been stated on this thread.

Here's what the Gauntlets of Ogre Power states in its text:

"Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is already 19 or higher."

As been pointed out before, it flat out states the character's Str is 19 while wearing the Gauntlets.

But can that number be lowered by a Shadow's attack? Let's look at Crawford's tweet about abilities countering other abilities:

"Here's a simpler way of saying the same thing: one effect doesn't turn off another unless a rule says it does. #DnD https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/832264617569038336 …"

So does a Shadow's attack lower the Str set by the Gauntlets? No, because the character, even after taking the ability damage from the Shadow's attack, is still wearing the Gauntlets, which state the wearer has 19 Str while the Gauntlets are worn, and the Shadow's ability doesn't state that it counters set Str scores.

So now we get to the designer's intent, and Crawford's other tweet, previously quoted (and ignored by DBZ):

@JeremyECrawford What happens if you level up and put a point in an ability score while wearing an item which sets that score to 19?

in reply to @jakejnelson
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The answer depends on the specific item you're wearing.
12:37 PM · Aug 30, 2015

Aug 30, 2015
Jake Nelson‏ @jakejnelson
@JeremyECrawford Headband of Intellect, for example.

Jake Nelson @jakejnelson
@JeremyECrawford But if I have the headband on, and I put a point in Intelligence, does it go to 20 or stay at 19?

Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The headband has no effect on the score on your character sheet. The item effectively overwrites a score lower than 19.

Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The ability increase ignores the headband. It is increasing the score on your character sheet.


Okay now is where DBZ states "Ah ha! That's in reference to the Headband of Intellect and has no bearing on how the Gauntlets of Ogre Power work!"

So let's look at the text of HoI:

"Your Intelligence score is 19 while you wear this headband. It has no effect on you if your Intelligence is already 19 or higher without it."

Basically the same exact wording except substitute Intelligence for Strength and Headband (singular) for Gauntlets (plural).

Add this up and what do you get:

You never change the Ability score on the character sheet when wearing an item like the GoOP or the HoI, but while wearing them, the item "effectively overwrites" the Ability score.

And, now we get to the intent part, if ASI's and the like that increase the Ability score don't effect the "overwrite" score, that is as Crawford put it "the Ability increase ignores the Headband," then we can carry that over to decreases: essentially the Ability decrease ignores the Headband or Gauntlets.

All that summed up: ability decreases and increase effect the scores on the character sheet but ignore the set 19 from items like the GoOP and HoI.

[Sigreid]

My biggest problem is the fact that anyone (and I do mean anyone) can possibly claim that 19-1=19 is the "simplest" answer.

I'll take a crack at it. It's more of the simplest answer being that the shadow's drain living vitality (strength) and the gauntlets, not being alive, don't have any living vitality being drained. The person wearing the gauntlets is still having their underlying vitality drained, but are being magically sustained.

So, the simple answer is the strength granted by the gauntlets is simply not a valid target for the shadow's strength drain, which is draining off life energy.

That being said, this debate is only useful for helping people decide how they will run it at their table. No reason anyone should change how their group does it if their group is content with their current system.

Edit: To use a scifi example. Space marine bob has a strength of 16. Space marine bob usually wears a suit of power armor with a strength of 20 when in battle. Space marine bob catches a sever bug that reduces his strength to 10 due to muscle weakness. Battle happens and space marine bob puts on his power armor. The armor still has a strength of 20 as it has not contracted the illness.

[RSP]

My biggest problem is the fact that anyone (and I do mean anyone) can possibly claim that 19-1=19 is the "simplest" answer.

Claim this all you want but the rules of the game are the rules of the game.

The simplest way to resolve combat? Just state which side wins. However, since we're talking about 5e we follow the rules for combat outlined in the PHB.

Are these rules simpler than just saying "the PCs win?" Nope but they're the rules we're playing with.

[BurgerBeast]

Mine as well. This would, in the same "simple" way imply that the character wearing the gauntlets is "immune" to strength damage/drain/reduction below 19, which is something the item doesn't say.
I stay by my ruling that by the rule of omission, the damage/drain/reduction must still apply and it does, from 19.

I really hope that they would give a clear answer to this (and many other) question, instead of giving something vague, leaving it to the reader to decipher.

(emphasis added)

I agree with it all except for "from 19." The shadow doesn't drain the gauntlets. It drains the character. The strength is drained from the character's strength score.


Let me hold your hand and walk you through this, point by point...


Not sure to whom this was directed, but I agree 100%. My view seems to make the most sense to me, and seems to be completely in line with Crawford's understanding (in this case, and not that I personally place any stock in whether Crawford agrees with me).

In my view you can die while wearing the gauntlets. This happens if your actual strength score (the one written on your sheet) is completely drained away (to zero) by a shadow.

[pwykersotz]

I'll take a crack at it. It's more of the simplest answer being that the shadow's drain living vitality (strength) and the gauntlets, not being alive, don't have any living vitality being drained. The person wearing the gauntlets is still having their underlying vitality drained, but are being magically sustained.

So, the simple answer is the strength granted by the gauntlets is simply not a valid target for the shadow's strength drain, which is draining off life energy.

That being said, this debate is only useful for helping people decide how they will run it at their table. No reason anyone should change how their group does it if their group is content with their current system.

Edit: To use a scifi example. Space marine bob has a strength of 16. Space marine bob usually wears a suit of power armor with a strength of 20 when in battle. Space marine bob catches a sever bug that reduces his strength to 10 due to muscle weakness. Battle happens and space marine bob puts on his power armor. The armor still has a strength of 20 as it has not contracted the illness.

I like your example. That's all I wanted to say. :smallsmile:

[DivisibleByZero]

Let me hold your hand and walk you through this, point by point as you seem to want to ignore most of what's been stated on this thread.

Here's what the Gauntlets of Ogre Power states in its text:

"Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is already 19 or higher."

As been pointed out before, it flat out states the character's Str is 19 while wearing the Gauntlets.

But can that number be lowered by a Shadow's attack? Let's look at Crawford's tweet about abilities countering other abilities:

"Here's a simpler way of saying the same thing: one effect doesn't turn off another unless a rule says it does. #DnD https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/832264617569038336 …"

So does a Shadow's attack lower the Str set by the Gauntlets? No, because the character, even after taking the ability damage from the Shadow's attack, is still wearing the Gauntlets, which state the wearer has 19 Str while the Gauntlets are worn, and the Shadow's ability doesn't state that it counters set Str scores.

So now we get to the designer's intent, and Crawford's other tweet, previously quoted (and ignored by DBZ):

@JeremyECrawford What happens if you level up and put a point in an ability score while wearing an item which sets that score to 19?

in reply to @jakejnelson
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The answer depends on the specific item you're wearing.
12:37 PM · Aug 30, 2015

Aug 30, 2015
Jake Nelson‏ @jakejnelson
@JeremyECrawford Headband of Intellect, for example.

Jake Nelson @jakejnelson
@JeremyECrawford But if I have the headband on, and I put a point in Intelligence, does it go to 20 or stay at 19?

Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The headband has no effect on the score on your character sheet. The item effectively overwrites a score lower than 19.

Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The ability increase ignores the headband. It is increasing the score on your character sheet.


Okay now is where DBZ states "Ah ha! That's in reference to the Headband of Intellect and has no bearing on how the Gauntlets of Ogre Power work!"

So let's look at the text of HoI:

"Your Intelligence score is 19 while you wear this headband. It has no effect on you if your Intelligence is already 19 or higher without it."

Basically the same exact wording except substitute Intelligence for Strength and Headband (singular) for Gauntlets (plural).

Add this up and what do you get:

You never change the Ability score on the character sheet when wearing an item like the GoOP or the HoI, but while wearing them, the item "effectively overwrites" the Ability score.

And, now we get to the intent part, if ASI's and the like that increase the Ability score don't effect the "overwrite" score, that is as Crawford put it "the Ability increase ignores the Headband," then we can carry that over to decreases: essentially the Ability decrease ignores the Headband or Gauntlets.

All that summed up: ability decreases and increase effect the scores on the character sheet but ignore the set 19 from items like the GoOP and HoI.

No one ever disagreed that adding a +1 (or +2) to an ability score through spending an ASI increased the base score.
It is completely irrelevant to what happens in the case of temporary ability damage/drain.
So once again, I ask you, what is this "official ruling" that you keep referring to with regards to ability damage/drain and a magical item that sets a certain score?

As I have tried to tell you repeatedly, that went like this:

Question: (insert here)
Answer: explanation #1
-- he didn't get it
Answer: explanation #2, which were different words
-- he didn't get it
Answer: explanation #3, which were different words still
-- he didn't get it
Answer: explanation #4, which were different words yet again
-- Oh, wait, I think he gets it!

Answder #4 is what you're trying to use as evidence, but that was not tyhe answer originally given, nor given the second time, and so on and so forth.
You cannot place any weight behind that as official ruling, because it took so long to get there that he may have just said it so that the person asking the question finally understood the concept.
Context matters, and in this case the context is that this very well may not be a RAW answer any longer.

[Arkhios]

Let me hold your hand and walk you through this, point by point as you seem to want to ignore most of what's been stated on this thread.

Here's what the Gauntlets of Ogre Power states in its text:

"Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is already 19 or higher."

As been pointed out before, it flat out states the character's Str is 19 while wearing the Gauntlets.

But can that number be lowered by a Shadow's attack? Let's look at Crawford's tweet about abilities countering other abilities:

"Here's a simpler way of saying the same thing: one effect doesn't turn off another unless a rule says it does. #DnD https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/832264617569038336 …"

So does a Shadow's attack lower the Str set by the Gauntlets? No, because the character, even after taking the ability damage from the Shadow's attack, is still wearing the Gauntlets, which state the wearer has 19 Str while the Gauntlets are worn, and the Shadow's ability doesn't state that it counters set Str scores.

So now we get to the designer's intent, and Crawford's other tweet, previously quoted (and ignored by DBZ):

@JeremyECrawford What happens if you level up and put a point in an ability score while wearing an item which sets that score to 19?

in reply to @jakejnelson
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The answer depends on the specific item you're wearing.
12:37 PM · Aug 30, 2015

Aug 30, 2015
Jake Nelson‏ @jakejnelson
@JeremyECrawford Headband of Intellect, for example.

Jake Nelson @jakejnelson
@JeremyECrawford But if I have the headband on, and I put a point in Intelligence, does it go to 20 or stay at 19?

Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The headband has no effect on the score on your character sheet. The item effectively overwrites a score lower than 19.

Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The ability increase ignores the headband. It is increasing the score on your character sheet.


Okay now is where DBZ states "Ah ha! That's in reference to the Headband of Intellect and has no bearing on how the Gauntlets of Ogre Power work!"

So let's look at the text of HoI:

"Your Intelligence score is 19 while you wear this headband. It has no effect on you if your Intelligence is already 19 or higher without it."

Basically the same exact wording except substitute Intelligence for Strength and Headband (singular) for Gauntlets (plural).

Add this up and what do you get:

You never change the Ability score on the character sheet when wearing an item like the GoOP or the HoI, but while wearing them, the item "effectively overwrites" the Ability score.

And, now we get to the intent part, if ASI's and the like that increase the Ability score don't effect the "overwrite" score, that is as Crawford put it "the Ability increase ignores the Headband," then we can carry that over to decreases: essentially the Ability decrease ignores the Headband or Gauntlets.

All that summed up: ability decreases and increase effect the scores on the character sheet but ignore the set 19 from items like the GoOP and HoI.

Huh. Ok. That's good enough for me, because, unlike some people (apparently), I actually respect a Designer's word when it comes to questions about rules.

That still doesn't answer, that if the item's set score is ignored by decreasing and increasing effects, can you die from shadow's drain? Or does the item keep you alive? I'm not quite sure which way it is.

[Keltest]

My biggest problem is the fact that anyone (and I do mean anyone) can possibly claim that 19-1=19 is the "simplest" answer.

Your problem might be coming about because that isn't what is being said.

[pwykersotz]

That still doesn't answer, that if the item's set score is ignored by decreasing and increasing effects, can you die from shadow's drain? Or does the item keep you alive? I'm not quite sure which way it is.

The best answer (my favorite answer) to this was already given on the first page.


I like the idea of the real strength score draining as their magically enhanced score stays at 19. However, because their magically enhanced score stays at 19, they don't die from the strength drain.

Once the true strength score drops to 0, make it so it can never be fixed without some epic quest.

Creates a wonderful roleplay opportunity of, "I can never takes these off, or I die."

That would be a cool story.

I mentioned this thread to one of my players and his eyes practically lit up. He asked me if thereafter the Gauntlets would become cursed, draining the true strength of the bearer to 0 while they continue to provide the magical 19 strength. Apparently my players are masochists. :smalltongue:

[Arkhios]

The best answer (my favorite answer) to this was already given on the first page.



I mentioned this thread to one of my players and his eyes practically lit up. He asked me if thereafter the Gauntlets would become cursed, draining the true strength of the bearer to 0 while they continue to provide the magical 19 strength. Apparently my players are masochists. :smalltongue:

I suppose, given the tweet shedding light on this matter, that is plausible enough and sparks imagination. But I'd still like to see an official and straightforward answer from Crawford.

[DivisibleByZero]

Your problem might be coming about because that isn't what is being said.

That is exactly what's being said. They just toss a bunch of computer code into the middle to make it true, and then claim that it's the simplest answer.

What's your Str?
-- 19
The Shadow drains 1 point of Str from you. What's your Str now?
-- still 19

[BurgerBeast]

Huh. Ok. That's good enough for me, because, unlike some people (apparently), I actually respect a Designer's word when it comes to questions about rules.

That still doesn't answer, that if the item's set score is ignored by decreasing and increasing effects, can you die from shadow's drain? Or does the item keep you alive? I'm not quite sure which way it is.

Here's what I think. And I understand there is room for interpretation, but I think it makes the most sense.

You can die.

The shadow's ability says:
Strength Drain. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 9 (2d6 + 2) necrotic damage, and the target's Strength score is reduced by 1d4. The target dies if this reduces its Strength to 0. Otherwise, the reduction lasts until the target finishes a short or long rest.
If a non-evil humanoid dies from this attack, a new shadow rises from the corpse 1d4 hours later.

The important parts here, in my opinion are that it says "the target dies if this reduces its Strength score to 0."

Well, the Strength score is reduced to zero. If you concede that the score was reduced from 12 to 10 and is now 10 (on a previous attack that reduced strength by 2), then you must also concede that it is now reduced to zero (by successive attacks). That is the condition that leads to death.

So, in my opinion, the character's strength score is zero, and he is dead. He is also still wearing the gauntlets which set his functional strength to 19, but his strength is 0 and he's dead.

[Dr.Samurai]

I have no idea what barbarian thing you're referring to, which is why I haven't responded to it. Care to ask again?

- Level 20 Barbarian with a natural 24 strength (started with 16, boosted with ASIs, then maxed with class feature).
- Attuned to and wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Currently, because his strength is above 19, they have no effect, as per their description.
- Hit by two shadows for 8 strength damage. His Strength goes from 24 to 16.

Now the question/s:

Do the Gauntlets activate when his Strength drops below 19?
If no, why not?
If yes, does his strength change to 19, 16, or 11? Please explain why you chose the number you did.

No one ever disagreed that adding a +1 (or +2) to an ability score through spending an ASI increased the base score.
It is completely irrelevant to what happens in the case of temporary ability damage/drain.

You yourself mention context but then kind of ignore it here. It's not the direct comparison between ASI and ability drain. It's what Crawford says to support his answers. The magic item overwrites the score. One ability doesn't turn another ability off. It's helpful to see how the developers are explaining how magic items are interacting with the powers of monsters.

My biggest problem is the fact that anyone (and I do mean anyone) can possibly claim that 19-1=19 is the "simplest" answer.
No it's not. You're just being incredibly disingenuous here. You're pretending like this is a math simulation and not a fantasy game with magic items and supernatural monsters. It's like asking how much fire damage a fire immune monster takes, and you're like "My biggest problem is how anyone can possibly claim that 100hp - 27 fire damage = 100hp. Amirite?!?!?! I mean... the dragon has 100hp, and you have to subtract 27 fire damage, but somehow, just somehow, these guys are claiming he still has 100hp. Like, 100-27=100. I mean, in what universe does that make sense??!?!!?!?!?"

I know, I know, you're going to try and dodge the point by claiming that the gauntlets don't grant immunity. That is beside the point. I'm simply reducing the example to a simple equation as you are to demonstrate how it doesn't make sense outside the context of the game. You know very well that no one is trying to say 2+2=5. You know that we're saying the magic of the gauntlets intervene in this damage equation. Debate honestly.

[Keltest]

That is exactly what's being said. They just toss a bunch of computer code into the middle to make it true, and then claim that it's the simplest answer.

What's your Str?
-- 19
The Shadow drains 1 point of Str from you. What's your Str now?
-- still 19

Well yes. Because the gauntlets explicitly say as much. Where is the confusion? Which step in the code is giving you the trouble? Being str drained would put your str below 19, therefore the gauntlets raise it to 19 again. Would you prefer we phrase it as "they counteract any str damage that would take it below 19"? instead?

[BurgerBeast]

Well yes. Because the gauntlets explicitly say as much. Where is the confusion? Which step in the code is giving you the trouble? Being str drained would put your str below 19, therefore the gauntlets raise it to 19 again. Would you prefer we phrase it as "they counteract any str damage that would take it below 19"? instead?

The confusion is purely semantic and comes down to which "strength" we're talking about, because DBZ is correct in pointing out that something had to be drained.

So it should be:

What's your Str?
-- 19
The Shadow drains 1 point of Str from you. What's your Str now?
-- 18, but the gauntlets make it 19

Or something like:

What's your Str?
-- 16 (but the gauntlets make it 19)
The Shadow drains 1 point of Str from you. What's your Str now?
-- 15 (but the gauntlets make it 19)

[pwykersotz]

So, in my opinion, the character's strength score is zero, and he is dead. He is also still wearing the gauntlets which set his functional strength to 19, but his strength is 0 and he's dead.

This is undoubtedly a more "correct" interpretation than not dying but needing an epic quest to resolve the issue. I just find it less interesting. And apparently my players want to one-up me, as I mentioned above.

I would heartily recommend this interpretation to anyone who didn't want to derail an existing campaign structure over a rather unique occurrence.

[Dr.Samurai]

The confusion is purely semantic and comes down to which "strength" we're talking about, because DBZ is correct in pointing out that something had to be drained.
That's not what DBZ is arguing though and no one is saying that nothing is being drained. The entire argument based on the gauntlets' effect is that if your strength is drained and below 19 the gauntlets make it 19 again. They never stop working. That's in line with Crawford's quote on a similar topic.

If it's below 19 normally, the gauntlets make it 19.

If it gets drained below 19 magically, the gauntlets make it 19.

He is pretending this is more complicated than it really is.

[DivisibleByZero]

You yourself mention context but then kind of ignore it here. It's not the direct comparison between ASI and ability drain. It's what Crawford says to support his answers. The magic item overwrites the score. One ability doesn't turn another ability off. It's helpful to see how the developers are explaining how magic items are interacting with the powers of monsters.

This is why I ignored it.
Because I have explained numerous times that the tweets in question cannot be held with any weight because of the hoops that were jumped through before the tweet in question was actually typed.

Question --
Answer 1, he doesn't get it
Answer 2, using different words, he doesn't get it.
Answer 3, using different words yet again, he still doesn't get it
Answer 4, using different words still, this time he might actually get it.

Answer 4 was not answer 1, not answer 2, nor answer 3. It may very well have been explained that way just so that the person asking the question finally followed what was being said.

I have said this multiple times, and no one is willing to argue against that line of thought, and yet people still cling to the tweet like gospel.
That's what's disingenuous.

[BurgerBeast]

Question --
Answer 1, he doesn't get it
Answer 2, using different words, he doesn't get it.
Answer 3, using different words yet again, he still doesn't get it
Answer 4, using different words still, this time he might actually get it.

Can you clarify what you're representing, here?

Is this meant to be the answers given by Crawford, showing that he doesn't understand the tweeted questions?

[DivisibleByZero]

Can you clarify what you're representing, here?

Is this meant to be the answers given by Crawford, showing that he doesn't understand the tweeted questions?

No, this is representative of the string of tweets that led to someone claiming there was an "official ruling" on the matter.

[BurgerBeast]

No, this is representative of the string of tweets that led to someone claiming there was an "official ruling" on the matter.

So who is giving the answers 1, 2, 3, and 4? And who is the "he" who doesn't get it?

edit: Thanks for adding the source quote. So who is the "he" who doesn't understand? Crawford or the asker?

[DivisibleByZero]

So who is giving the answers 1, 2, 3, and 4? And who is the "he" who doesn't get it?

edit: Thanks for adding the source quote. So who is the "he" who doesn't understand? Crawford or the asker?

It doen't matter. It's irrelevant.
Because a discussion about what happens when you use an ASI to increase a score while wearing an HoI has ne bearing on what happens with drain.
The problem is that people are taking the "overwrite" part literally, when JC said it was "effectively" doing so.
That isn't gospel. And it isn't evidence for this discussion one way or another, because it has no bearing in the first place.

ASI and Drain/Damage are two different things.
There is no "official ruling," as has been claimed.

edit: @V: Yeah my copy/paste went wonky, but they've been linked here numerous times.

[BurgerBeast]

Okay, well it looks like you edited it to add in the source quote, and then re-edited to remove it, but in any case, I think those tweets have relevance to this discussion. I think those tweets are so relevant, in fact, that they are sufficient to answer the question.

If you want to take it step by step, I'm willing to try.

[Segev]

My biggest problem is the fact that anyone (and I do mean anyone) can possibly claim that 19-1=19 is the "simplest" answer.That is either a grossly ignorant or deliberate mischaracterization of the position being espoused. It is therefore a straw man.

Let's examine your later post, which at least attempts to justify lumping what's actually being said in with your straw man:


That is exactly what's being said. They just toss a bunch of computer code into the middle to make it true, and then claim that it's the simplest answer.

What's your Str?
-- 19
The Shadow drains 1 point of Str from you. What's your Str now?
-- still 19

The "toss in a bunch of computer code" dismissal is as silly as if I just dismissed "19-1=19" as you "tossing in a bunch of math."

You are ignoring a required step. That step being: if your Str is less than 19, but you are wearing the Gauntlets, your Str is 19.

Repeatedly pretending that step isn't there and then snidely implying that people can't understand basic math because without that step your answer would be right doesn't make your answer right.

Your argument is, essentially, "Characters whose heads are underwater start to drown. Bob's feet are glued to the bottom of a river. Therefore, Bob is drowning. I can't believe people want to say Bob isn't drowning!" while ignoring that Bob is actually standing in a river that only comes up to his knees.

While you are wearing the gauntlets, your strength is either 19, or it is greater than 19. If anything would make your strength less than 19, the gauntlets make it 19. Period. This isn't "19-1=19." It's "19-1=18, but 18<19, so while wearing the Gauntlets, your Str is 19."

Continued efforts to pretend that this argument is "19-1=18" will be viewed as deliberate intellectual dishonesty, unless and until you can prove that the above argument IS equivalent to that straw man argument.



Okay, so I was mistaken in how we view the spell's function as well. Apologies for the misrepresentation.That's alright; it was an honest attempt at understanding my position.


Here's my point then. If you think the strength score is replaced, then we can cross out the 12, and replace it with 19. When the character takes the gauntlets off, how do you know what he character's strength is? You had to be tracking the 12 in order to know to return to it.

In terms of computer science, you need a natural strength variable and a functional strength variable.

If you only have a strength variable, then as soon as you put the gauntlets on, and Str := 19, then the previous value of 12 is gone, overwritten by the program. When the gauntlets come off, there is no place to look to find the correct strength.

Additionally, if strength is actually set to 19 by the gauntlets, then ASIs which increase strength need a strength score to apply to. If there is no record of the 12, then the ASI must add to the 19.

Where have I gone wrong, here?
I don't see it as two "layers" of strength, is all. I see it as you having, still, a natural str of 12, but your str IS 19 when wearing the gauntlets. It isn't "12, underneath the gauntlets," but rather 19, with 12 being what it WOULD be if you took them off.

If you like the "current/maximum" representation, then you have 19/12 strength. The gauntlets are pushing you well over your maximum Str. Just like temporary hit points can put you at 15/10 hp.

[DivisibleByZero]

If you want to take it step by step, I'm willing to try.

Step by step is simple.
Step 1: Query:
Question: Can something regarding an ASI increase which used the word "effectively" to prove a point be used as solid evidence for what happens with abiltiy damage/drain?
Answer: No

Step 2: ignore that string of tweets as irrelevant.
I mean, I could find a tweet saying that Monks get their mod to damage while using martial arts. Can I use that as evidence here? No, it's irrelevant, they're two different topics.

Step 3: What's your Str? What's your Str -1?

[RSP]

Huh. Ok. That's good enough for me, because, unlike some people (apparently), I actually respect a Designer's word when it comes to questions about rules.

That still doesn't answer, that if the item's set score is ignored by decreasing and increasing effects, can you die from shadow's drain? Or does the item keep you alive? I'm not quite sure which way it is.

Yeah with no official answer, I go with "yes, when the character sheet score reaches 0," because that's what the Shadow Ability says what happens

[Segev]

Step 3: What's your Str?If I am attuned to a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, and I am wearing them, my Str is the higher of two numbers: 19, and whatever my Str would be without the Gauntlets.


What's your Str -1?Wrong question. Obviously, my Str-1, if my Str is 19, is 18. However. I don't have a Str score equal to my Str-1. I have a Str score that is equal to my Str score. Your question is meaningless unless you're trying to argue that Str=Str-1. Which is a false equation.

The correct question is: What is your Str after you take 1 point of Str damage?

This answer is not "My Str-1," even without the gauntlets. If I have a Str of 10, and take 1 point of str damage, my Str is 9. This is not my Str-1, because my Str-1 would be 8, since my Str is 9.


If I am wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power, my Str is defined to be the maximum value of two numbers: whatever my Str would be without them, or 19. If I take 1 point of Str damage, we apply the damage to my Str score, and see if that new Str value is less than 19. If it is, the Gauntlets set my Str to 19. If it is not, the Gauntlets still have no effect.

[BurgerBeast]

Step by step is simple.
Step 1: Query:
Question: Can something regarding an ASI increase which used the word "effectively" to prove a point be used as solid evidence for what happens with abiltiy damage/drain?
Answer: No

I disagree. We're talking about this:


Jeremy Crawford The headband has no effect on the score on your character sheet. The item effectively overwrites a score lower than 19.

So, first of all, we can take "The headband has no effect on the score on your character sheet." as solid evidence.

Secondly, you might wish to completely dismiss "The item effectively overwrites a score lower than 19," but I would say that's not quite true. For example, it's clear that, to JC, this would be the same as if the headband had "no effect on the score on your character sheet." That appears to be what he means by "effectively."

So the problems are that (1) you can't really dismiss the effectively comment, in my view. And that (2) even if you could dismiss them, the first sentence can be taken as solid evidence. So there is solid evidence to be found in the tweet, in either case.

[pwykersotz]

Step by step is simple.
Step 1: Query:
Question: Can something regarding an ASI increase which used the word "effectively" to prove a point be used as solid evidence for what happens with abiltiy damage/drain?
Answer: No

Step 2: ignore that string of tweets as irrelevant.
I mean, I could find a tweet saying that Monks get their mod to damage while using martial arts. Can I use that as evidence here? No, it's irrelevant, they're two different topics.

Step 3: What's your Str? What's your Str -1?

Followup question regarding in-game semantics:
What happens if you remove the gauntlets? Or if you put them back on? Or if your strength is drained and then you put on the gauntlets? Do all of these paradigms (particularly that last one) make sufficient sense with the 'simple subtraction method?

Because by your interpretation, a person who had been attacked by a shadow and had a point of strength drained would put on the gauntlets and then have strength raised to 18. Unless you wanted to be inconsistent about the rulings, or make it so that the gauntlets effectively restore strength when worn. Both of which are more complex than the proposed alternative.

Not that I agree that "simple is better", especially when the supposedly more complex option is also simple. But I also think that your way could be an interesting way to run, provided some of the kinks are ironed out.

[BurgerBeast]

If I am attuned to a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, and I am wearing them, my Str is the higher of two numbers: 19, and whatever my Str would be without the Gauntlets.

And this is why I say the difference is important. If you are talking about your effective strength, then I agree. But there is no good reason for "Str" to refer to the 19 any more than it refers to the 12 written on your sheet.


If I am wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power, my Str is defined to be the maximum value of two numbers: whatever my Str would be without them, or 19. If I take 1 point of Str damage, we apply the damage to my Str score, and see if that new Str value is less than 19. If it is, the Gauntlets set my Str to 19. If it is not, the Gauntlets still have no effect.

So, again, this is what you are saying "Str" means in this case. But ultimately what "Str" means comes down to what the person asking the question meant. So you'd have t clarify this with the person asking the question. This is because there is a logical and conceptual difference between the strength score write o the sheet and the 19 provided by the gauntlets. Call them what you want, but they're two different concepts with associated consequences.

[Dr.Samurai]

DBZ, I reposted the scenario with the barbarian. Can I get you to give me your thoughts on it? I feel like it would determine how exactly the gauntlets are working.

[Keltest]

And this is why I say the difference is important. If you are talking about your effective strength, then I agree. But there is no good reason for "Str" to refer to the 19 any more than it refers to the 12 written on your sheet.



So, again, this is what you are saying "Str" means in this case. But ultimately what "Str" means comes down to what the person asking the question meant. So you'd have t clarify this with the person asking the question. This is because there is a logical and conceptual difference between the strength score write o the sheet and the 19 provided by the gauntlets. Call them what you want, but they're two different concepts with associated consequences.

Well that's the question, isn't it? Does that str value written on your sheet have any meaning at all while wearing the gauntlets? Personally I would go with "yes", but I don't think the rules have an actual answer.

[Segev]

And this is why I say the difference is important. If you are talking about your effective strength, then I agree. But there is no good reason for "Str" to refer to the 19 any more than it refers to the 12 written on your sheet.



So, again, this is what you are saying "Str" means in this case. But ultimately what "Str" means comes down to what the person asking the question meant. So you'd have t clarify this with the person asking the question. This is because there is a logical and conceptual difference between the strength score write o the sheet and the 19 provided by the gauntlets. Call them what you want, but they're two different concepts with associated consequences.

Sure. But my point is that 19 isn't an "effective" Str. It is your Str while you wear them. You do have to keep note of what your Str is if you remove them.

There aren't "two layers," here. There is a Str score. There is also a number that your Str becomes if you stop wearing the Gauntlets. But it's not your Str score while you wear them. It's just a number that your Str score becomes when you stop wearing them.


If you have a Str of 20, then there still aren't two layers. You have a Str of 20. You also have a number, 19, which your Str would become thanks to the Gauntlets if your Str ever were below 19. But you don't have a "second layer" of 19 Str. You have a Str of 20. And a number which your Str will become (19) should your Str ever fall below 19.


Well that's the question, isn't it? Does that str value written on your sheet have any meaning at all while wearing the gauntlets? Personally I would go with "yes", but I don't think the rules have an actual answer.

The only meaning the Str value you had before you put on the Gauntlets has is that it is the number to which you compare "19" to determine if your Str is 19, or that other number. That, and that it's the number to which your Str will be set if you remove the Gauntlets.

[Dr.Samurai]

Right. There is a score to have written down in case the gauntlets ever come off, but the gauntlets *make* your score 19. That *is* your strength score. That's it.

[pwykersotz]

Right. There is a score to have written down in case the gauntlets ever come off, but the gauntlets *make* your score 19. That *is* your strength score. That's it.

Which is uninteresting for the sake of the narrative, but certainly an efficient way to run it. It's not like there are multitudes of enemies with ability drain.

[Dr.Samurai]

Which is uninteresting for the sake of the narrative, but certainly an efficient way to run it. It's not like there are multitudes of enemies with ability drain.
I think it is true that this is one of those cases that probably doesn't come up very often, but when it does I can see the potential for the DM and the player to get into an argument similar to the one being had here.

[pwykersotz]

I think it is true that this is one of those cases that probably doesn't come up very often, but when it does I can see the potential for the DM and the player to get into an argument similar to the one being had here.

I was actually pointing out that since there are few enemies with the power to do this, it's not particularly overpowered to grant immunity to the drain. I do think there is merit to the conversation, even if it is a corner case. Plus, I just enjoy corner case discussion.

[RSP]

Not sure to whom this was directed, but I agree 100%.

Apologies Burger, it was directed at DBZ, in response to his shouting and completely ignoring valid points, as shown here:


In ignoring that because.... Well... because it doesn't say that anywhere and you are all reading something that isn't printed.
The simplest answer is that 19-1=18

[DivisibleByZero]

DBZ, I reposted the scenario with the barbarian. Can I get you to give me your thoughts on it? I feel like it would determine how exactly the gauntlets are working.

I have done so. I already quoted (part) and answered.
My answer was the same that it has been.
I ignored your post because it assumes the "overwriting" as gospel, when the ever important word "effectively" is completely ignored.

Look, you guys can run it how you want, with that 19 being immutable and immune to Str drain. Go for it.
I'm going to run it how I want, with that 19 not being immutable but rather setting a temporary score. While the gauntlets are worn, you treat your Str score as if it were 19. If an effect would then temporarily lower that score (not raise it, because it says they don't work if it's higher, but lower it, sure) then that's what happens.

You guys claim that one effect doesn't turn off another one, but the reverse holds true as well.
You claim that Drain doesn't lower it because it's set at 19, and that the Drain doesn't turn off the magic.
I go with the opposite, and claim that the magic doesn't turn off the drain.

Until there is an official ruling (one that has specifically to do with drain, and not ASIs) then we're both within our rights to rule however we'd like.
But don't claim that the RAW is with you, because it could go either way.
Don't claim that the RAI is with you, because it could go either way.
Don't claim that the "official ruling" is with you, because there hasn't been one and the one being used as evidence is in regards to a permanent increase, not a temporary decrease. Two very different things. And the word "effectively" basically makes that tweet useless here as gospel.
And for all those talking about simplicity, the simplest solution is the one that I use, where 19-1=18

[Syll]

You guys claim that one effect doesn't turn off another one, but the reverse holds true as well.
You claim that Drain doesn't lower it because it's set at 19, and that the Drain doesn't turn off the magic.
I go with the opposite, and claim that the magic doesn't turn off the drain.

From the stance of str drain reducing 'true score', but gauntlets granting an 'effective score', and death following 'true score' falling to 0, it is actually allowing BOTH effects to take effect, vice your stance of one effect overriding another (without supplying precedence for this)





Don't claim that the "official ruling" is with you, because there hasn't been one and the one being used as evidence is in regards to a permanent increase, not a temporary decrease. Two very different things. And the word "effectively" basically makes that tweet useless here as gospel.

It's actually about as 'gospel' as possible in the literal sense; Look how many denominations there are of (for example) Christianity. They can't agree on what the 'gospel truth' is either.






And for all those talking about simplicity, the simplest solution is the one that I use, where 19-1=18
It's not about simplicity. It's about what is logical. In the absence of RAW or precedence, allowing both effects to function makes more sense than arbitrarily deciding one overrides another.

[Pex]

Well, I can understand that. Kind of. But since magic items cannot be bought (RAW) unless (or even when) a DM chose to allow it, it's up to DM if he or she wants to reward his or her players with such items. It's all on the DM if he or she feels cheated. Why on earth reward cheat items if you don't like being cheated? :smallwink:

Ergo why did you think a lot of people crow about 5E being a non-magic item game (It's not.) and highly encourage others don't use them either.
:smallyuk:


Foul.

Inappropriate amateur psychology of irrelevancy. There was no need for this.

Tee hee :smallbiggrin:

[RSP]

It doen't matter. It's irrelevant.
Because a discussion about what happens when you use an ASI to increase a score while wearing an HoI has ne bearing on what happens with drain.
The problem is that people are taking the "overwrite" part literally, when JC said it was "effectively" doing so.
That isn't gospel. And it isn't evidence for this discussion one way or another, because it has no bearing in the first place.

ASI and Drain/Damage are two different things.
There is no "official ruling," as has been claimed.

edit: @V: Yeah my copy/paste went wonky, but they've been linked here numerous times.

I find it humorous you disregard Crawford's tweets as irrelevant after trying to argue Barkskin was relevant to your argument.

If you want to disregard them, go ahead, but obviously the majority of other people think they are, in fact, relevant.

If you think the text of Barkskin is more relevant to how we should figure out the interaction between a Shadow's drain and GoOP, than quotes from the designer on how Ability score changes effect a character wearing an item that sets an Ability score at 19, I don't think we can help you.

[BurgerBeast]

Sure. But my point is that 19 isn't an "effective" Str. It is your Str while you wear them. You do have to keep note of what your Str is if you remove them.

There aren't "two layers," here. There is a Str score. There is also a number that your Str becomes if you stop wearing the Gauntlets. But it's not your Str score while you wear them. It's just a number that your Str score becomes when you stop wearing them.


If you have a Str of 20, then there still aren't two layers. You have a Str of 20. You also have a number, 19, which your Str would become thanks to the Gauntlets if your Str ever were below 19. But you don't have a "second layer" of 19 Str. You have a Str of 20. And a number which your Str will become (19) should your Str ever fall below 19.

Then this presents the problem. If your strength "is" 19, then when something, such as ASI, increases your strength, well... if your strength "is" 19, then it's the 19 that it increases. This appears to be a problem.

[Vogonjeltz]

That's why I used the Crawford ruling:

Aug 30, 2015
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson If you increase your Intelligence to 19 or higher while wearing a headband of intellect, the item ceases to affect you.

Aug 30, 2015
Jake Nelson‏ @jakejnelson
@JeremyECrawford But if I have the headband on, and I put a point in Intelligence, does it go to 20 or stay at 19?

in reply to @jakejnelson
@jakejnelson The headband has no effect on the score on your character sheet. The item effectively overwrites a score lower than 19.
12:51 PM · Aug 30, 2015

Aug 30, 2015
Jake Nelson‏ @jakejnelson
@JeremyECrawford So the score would become 20?

Aug 30, 2015
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@jakejnelson The ability increase ignores the headband. It is increasing the score on your character sheet.


So the distinction is made, that is, adjustments add or subtract from the character sheet score (the non-Gauntlet score).

Exactly, insofar as the game is concerned your score is 19 unless any combination of effects would take it to 20+. Otherwise it's just 19.

Shadows are incapable of bringing the score below 19.

[Segev]

Then this presents the problem. If your strength "is" 19, then when something, such as ASI, increases your strength, well... if your strength "is" 19, then it's the 19 that it increases. This appears to be a problem.

Specifically ruled against. It raises, according to the ruling, the number your Str is without the gauntlet.

That said, I don't find this to be a particularly difficult conundrum to rule past, even without the tweet.

[Vogonjeltz]

Specifically ruled against. It raises, according to the ruling, the number your Str is without the gauntlet.

That said, I don't find this to be a particularly difficult conundrum to rule past, even without the tweet.

Even if we pretended it didn't, and say it goes to whatever the stat is, it would raise it above, revert to below, be too low for 19 and become 19

[Segev]

Even if we pretended it didn't, and say it goes to whatever the stat is, it would raise it above, revert to below, be too low for 19 and become 19

Oh, sure. The specific concern he was raising is that an ASI, if applied to "your strength score" while you wear the gauntlets, would raise your Str from 19 to 20 if the gauntlets make 19 your strength for all purposes, including ASIs.

[BurgerBeast]

Specifically ruled against. It raises, according to the ruling, the number your Str is without the gauntlet.

That said, I don't find this to be a particularly difficult conundrum to rule past, even without the tweet.

It's interesting to me that you interpret Crawford's comments to effectively overrule or override the rules. I see Crawford's comments as his interpretation of the rules (and not changes to the rules). I don't personally see your position as tenable. It seems contrived.

This is even more true in the context of Crawford's other comments. For example the comment about the gauntlets not changing "the score on the sheet."

If the strength score is 19 then what do you call the number on the sheet (the 12, for example) written inside the strength box?

[Segev]

It's interesting to me that you interpret Crawford's comments to effectively overrule or override the rules. I see Crawford's comments as his interpretation of the rules (and not changes to the rules). I don't personally see your position as tenable. It seems contrived.

This is even more true in the context of Crawford's other comments. For example the comment about the gauntlets not changing "the score on the sheet."

If the strength score is 19 then what do you call the number on the sheet (the 12, for example) written inside the strength box?

Honestly, I do'nt really consider his comments as overriding. I do, however, think it a sensible way to handle it in this case.

The... most logical way to do it would be to have the ASI increase your Str to 20, but then the gauntlets stop having effect, and your alternate number kicks in. Which is whatever it was before you put on the gauntlets. Which is lower than 19 so the gauntlets make your Str 19 again. Which then wastes your ASI unless you count it as adding to that other number rather than being wasted.

[Dr.Samurai]

I have done so. I already quoted (part) and answered.
My answer was the same that it has been.
I'm not seeing where you answered it actually. I see you quoted a different part of my post and responded to that, but not to the scenario I posited.

I ignored your post because it assumes the "overwriting" as gospel, when the ever important word "effectively" is completely ignored.
I just can't begin to understand where you got that impression. My opinion is simply based on the effect of Gauntlets of Ogre Power. That's it. Based on that one line of text, and the text on the Shadow's damage, I conclude that the drain would occur and the gauntlets would make the strength 19. Crawford's tweet helps to give some guidance, but the only reason I mentioned it (eventually) is because you were dismissing all parts of it because the answer was clarified a few times. But I don't need Crawford's remarks to draw my conclusion. But in my scenario, I'm specifically not making any assumptions. I'm asking how you would see it working.

You guys claim that one effect doesn't turn off another one, but the reverse holds true as well.
You claim that Drain doesn't lower it because it's set at 19, and that the Drain doesn't turn off the magic.
I go with the opposite, and claim that the magic doesn't turn off the drain.
I know we're going in circles here but you keep misrepresenting the argument. We are saying that the gauntlets keep working, so even if you are getting drained, it will still set your strength to 19. We're not saying the gauntlets "turn off" the strength drain.

[DivisibleByZero]

Yes.
That.... would be the most.... logical.
:confused:

[BurgerBeast]

I think my solution is most logical (hah! no surprise there, I guess), and it's best represented by Rsp29a's comments.


Well that's the question, isn't it? Does that str value written on your sheet have any meaning at all while wearing the gauntlets? Personally I would go with "yes", but I don't think the rules have an actual answer.

Well, I think it (the Str score on the sheet) has a very simple meaning: it's the real strength of the character. I mean, if Joe (Str 12) and Sally (Str 15) are both wearing gauntlets, then they both have strength 19. But they also both have real strength scores of 12 and 15, respectively. Another way to say this is that 19 is not their real strength score. It's just the score provided by the gauntlets. The gauntlets do not change their real strength scores. This is evidenced by the fact that, even for those who claim that 19 is the real strength score, when the gauntlets come off, we all agree that the strength scores revert to 12 and 15. So those scores haven't gone away. They are still somewhere, so to speak.

Now, the semantic distinction here, most obviously advocated by Segev, comes down, in this case, to disputing what is meant by "real." Because, in one manner of speaking, 19 is the real score, but in another, 12 or 15 is the real score. So this is, as a matter of fact, a semantic difference, and by realizing that, the conversation can (at least in theory) progress along both lines.


Apologies Burger, it was directed at DBZ, in response to his shouting and completely ignoring valid points, as shown here:

No need to apologize. You were very clear.


Honestly, I do'nt really consider his comments as overriding. I do, however, think it a sensible way to handle it in this case.

The... most logical way to do it would be to have the ASI increase your Str to 20, but then the gauntlets stop having effect, and your alternate number kicks in. Which is whatever it was before you put on the gauntlets. Which is lower than 19 so the gauntlets make your Str 19 again. Which then wastes your ASI unless you count it as adding to that other number rather than being wasted.

So, it appears to me that this is the reductio ad absurdum that should cause you to abandon your stance. I would expect you to take another look at what you've written above, see that it is unnecessarily convoluted and leads to illogical results, and then consider what would happen if you considered "strength score" to actually refer to the number on the character sheet. This view seems to support all sides (except perhaps the view that some are ascribing to DBZ), and still leaves some room for interpretation.

If Bob has 12 strength, but is wearing gauntlets to make his strength 19, then when Bob's strength increases, there is no good reason to say that the 19 increases. After all, the 19, whether you consider it the true strength score or not, is not a true measure of Bob's strength. This is evidenced by what happens when he takes the gauntlets off. So any increase to Bob's strength must be an increase to the 12, not the 19. The 19 is a magical effect. It is not Bob's strength.

@DBZ: You never replied to my last response to you. I'm not sure if you missed it or chose not to. Just putting it out there.

[DivisibleByZero]

@DBZ: You never replied to my last response to you. I'm not sure if you missed it or chose not to. Just putting it out there.

That's because we're just talking in circles at this point.
You think that the results of an ASI placement on an HoI wearing character is relevant to a discussion about ability damage/drain on a character wearing GoOP.
I do not.
One is a permanent increase.
One is a temporary decrease.
That the two might have different rulings should not come as such a tragic surprise to people.
I'm agreeing to disagree rather than continuing to talk in circles.

[BurgerBeast]

That's because we're just talking in circles at this point.
You think that the results of an ASI placement on an HoI wearing character is relevant to a discussion about ability damage/drain on a character wearing GoOP.
I do not.
One is a permanent increase.
One is a temporary decrease.
That the two might have different rulings should not come as such a tragic surprise to people.
I'm agreeing to disagree rather than continuing to talk in circles.

Well, I'm sure that there is not only relevance, but if we talked about it we would come to agreement. I think part of the reason you don't expect us to agree is because you're incorrectly characterizing the degree to which I think it is relevant.

For instance, I think we'd find common ground in agreeing that GoOS affect strength in the same way that a HoI affects intelligence. This could serve as a starting point from which to move forward, slowly.

If you're not interested, that's fine. I do, however, think it's not correct to say that I am drawing the comparison in the way that you've claimed. By this I mean that I do not think that ability drain and ASIs are the same thing.

edit: also, for the record, you and I haven't talked in one circle, yet, let alone circles.

[DivisibleByZero]

Well, I'm sure that there is not only relevance, but if we talked about it we would come to agreement. I think part of the reason you don't expect us to agree is because you're incorrectly characterizing the degree to which I think it is relevant.

For instance, I think we'd find common ground in agreeing that GoOS affect strength in the same way that a HoI affects intelligence. This could serve as a starting point from which to move forward, slowly.

If you're not interested, that's fine. I do, however, think it's not correct to say that I am drawing the comparison in the way that you've claimed. By this I mean that I do not think that ability drain and ASIs are the same thing.

edit: also, for the record, you and I haven't talked in one circle, yet, let alone circles.

You and I personally? No. But I've been asked and have answered this same question multiple times here. It certainly is circular.

GoOS and HoI work the same way, yes.
Ability Drain/Damage do not work the same way. So a ruling about one, and especially one which uses the word "effectively" after attempting to answer a question for the third time, has zero bearing on the other.

[MrMcBobb]

EVERYONE ABANDON THREAD!

DBZ is right apparently.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/846197643533443072

I stand by our power armour argument though and have decided that JECrawford is wrong, because I'm CN and don't care for no rules! :smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Samurai]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

[DivisibleByZero]

K.i.s.s.
19-1=18

[RSP]

You and I personally? No. But I've been asked and have answered this same question multiple times here. It certainly is circular.

GoOS and HoI work the same way, yes.
Ability Drain/Damage do not work the same way. So a ruling about one, and especially one which uses the word "effectively" after attempting to answer a question for the third time, has zero bearing on the other.

So a ruling about how to deal with changes to an ability score while wearing an item that sets the Ability score to 19, has no bearing on a question asking how to deal with changes to an Ability score while wearing an item that sets an ability score to 19?

That's logical.

And because Crawford used the word "effectively" it somehow has less meaning than any other ruling he's made?

Makes sense.

Also note: Crawford's ruling doesn't differentiate between temporary and permanent changes, they work the same.

So basically, you're saying subtraction works with a completely different set of rules than addition, beyond the simple one is plus and the other is minus? That removing points from an Ability score is so drastically different than adding points to an Ability score, that a ruling about one can not have any significance on the ruling of the other?

Or are you saying, contrary to how the effect is worded and how the rules of 5e work, that when a Shadow's Ability drain hits, it actually tallies up negatives rather than subtracting positives?

That is, if a Shadow hits someone for 1 point of Str damage they now have a stand alone -1 to Str, rather than just subtracting 1 point of Str. If they get hit again for 2 points of Str damage they now have a combined -3 to Str, rather than just subtracting the additional 2 points. (Note: you would never have 0 in this situation. The wording of the Ability would be something like "If the total negative modifiers to Strength equals the target's Strength score, they die and return as a Shadow in 1d4 hours.")

If so you're looking at the equation (S=Strength score):

S+(-3)

As opposed to:

S-1-2

If looking at it this way, you've added a completely different way of calculating in 5e. If you do this with Ability damage, do you likewise do it with HP damage? So instead of a character with 50 HP who gets hit for 10 now having 40 HP, they now have 50+(-10)? And if hit again for 5 more damage, you track it as 50+(-15), rather than 35?

How do you then deal with healing abilities like Cure Wounds? Do you take the current 35 HP and add what was healed (let's say 8 HP healed), for a total of 43? Or do you mark your character sheet as 50+(-15)+8? Because nothing in the rules of healing or wording of the spells/abilities say anything about "decreasing the negatives."

This doesn't make any sense, and I know you don't do that. Why then are you choosing, for no reason given in the Ability text, to do this with Ability damage, which is described and rolled just like HP damage?

So you, who holds so fast to what is "simplest:" is it simpler to just subtract Ability damage from the character's score as written on their sheet, or is it simpler to change the way 5e deals with any type of damage (HP or Ability) and start keeping track of negative totals rather than just subtracting the number from the score?

Which is simpler:
43 HP
or
50+(-15)+8 HP

[DivisibleByZero]

Also note: Crawford's ruling doesn't differentiate between temporary and permanent changes, they work the same.

No, they do not.

calebrus44‏ @calebrus44 17h17 hours ago
@JeremyECrawford Still looking for an answer: Str 10; Ogre gauntlets Str 19; Hit by Shadow for 1pt Str damage; What's my Str?

Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@calebrus44 18

19-1=18
There's your official ruling. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/846197643533443072)

[Arkhios]

No, they do not.

calebrus44‏ @calebrus44 17h17 hours ago
@JeremyECrawford Still looking for an answer: Str 10; Ogre gauntlets Str 19; Hit by Shadow for 1pt Str damage; What's my Str?

Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford
@calebrus44 18

19-1=18
There's your official ruling. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/846197643533443072)

Thank you!

[RSP]

There it is, though I've asked Crawford for clarity between the two rulings (this one verse his Headband ruling) and if it's different subtracting vs addition, what. Will see if he responds to that question.

If so I'll post.

But we now have an official answer, curtesy of DBZ.

[Zanos]

EVERYONE ABANDON THREAD!

DBZ is right apparently.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/846197643533443072

I stand by our power armour argument though and have decided that JECrawford is wrong, because I'm CN and don't care for no rules! :smallbiggrin:
Vindication, etc.

[Segev]

So, it appears to me that this is the reductio ad absurdum that should cause you to abandon your stance. I would expect you to take another look at what you've written above, see that it is unnecessarily convoluted and leads to illogical results, and then consider what would happen if you considered "strength score" to actually refer to the number on the character sheet. This view seems to support all sides (except perhaps the view that some are ascribing to DBZ), and still leaves some room for interpretation.

If Bob has 12 strength, but is wearing gauntlets to make his strength 19, then when Bob's strength increases, there is no good reason to say that the 19 increases. After all, the 19, whether you consider it the true strength score or not, is not a true measure of Bob's strength. This is evidenced by what happens when he takes the gauntlets off. So any increase to Bob's strength must be an increase to the 12, not the 19. The 19 is a magical effect. It is not Bob's strength.
Except that the "absurd" result isn't that absurd; it's just not desirable and clearly not RAI. It is also an extremely corner case. It assumes that not only are you wearing the gauntlets when you apply the ASI, but that you're applying the ASI to a stat that will have absolutely no benefit from it (unless you're planning on taking off the gauntlets when str will matter).

I'm not going to say that both of those are impossible, but I will say that the latter is a corner case and the former is just foolish behavior.

Now, your last paragraph that I've quoted is an argument that the ASI applies to the number that would be Bob's str if he weren't wearing the gauntlets. It is, in fact, how I'd handle it if I were a DM overseeing this operation.

Nothing here, however, convinces me that "Bob's 'real Strength' is 12" is actually what's going on. The rules quite clearly state that, while he's wearing the gauntlets, his strength is 19.

That a tiny corner case requires us to apply the ASI not to his strength but to the number his strength would be if he took off the gauntlets in order to avoid convoluted algorithmic bugs doesn't make the rules suddenly not say that his strength is 19 while he wears the gauntlets.

Frankly, reductio ad absurdum only works, when examining algorithms and rules, to point out flaws in the rules. It doesn't point out flaws in the interpretation unless there is an equally valid interpretation that results in significantly less absurd results. The overly complicated "two-layers" theory results in far more bookkeeping and doesn't really resolve any problems other than that unlikely corner case which relies on the player both making a strange choice AND doing something foolish in the process.

And even then, I could re-consider the convoluted nonsense such that, upon the 19 ceasing to have effect, the ASI applies to the resumed Str score of 12, making it a 13, and then the gauntlets turn back on. Convoluted, but resulting in an expected result.

[jas61292]

To me, what the "always 19" side is getting wrong is thinking that this is somehow different from a normal score. When I roll ability scores, and I get a 12 for strength, my score is "always 12" just as much as it would be "always 19" if I had the gauntlets.

What do I mean by this? Well, when I take strength drain, say, 3 points, my strength is now 9. Yet my real strength is still always 12. The game doesn't forget this. When I take a rest, I don't reroll my strength. Because the rules of the game have my strength set to be 12. The drain just temporarily adjusts this.

The gauntlets set my strength to 19. And yes, for all intents and purposes, my score becomes 19. But that doesn't make it any more "always 19" than it was previously always 12. It just sets a new "real" score that, in the end, you will always come back to when your strength reverts to normal.

[DivisibleByZero]

To me, what the "always 19" side is getting wrong is thinking that this is somehow different from a normal score. When I roll ability scores, and I get a 12 for strength, my score is "always 12" just as much as it would be "always 19" if I had the gauntlets.

What do I mean by this? Well, when I take strength drain, say, 3 points, my strength is now 9. Yet my real strength is still always 12. The game doesn't forget this. When I take a rest, I don't reroll my strength. Because the rules of the game have my strength set to be 12. The drain just temporarily adjusts this.

The gauntlets set my strength to 19. And yes, for all intents and purposes, my score becomes 19. But that doesn't make it any more "always 19" than it was previously always 12. It just sets a new "real" score that, in the end, you will always come back to when your strength reverts to normal.

This guy. Right here. He gets it.
Correction. He still gets it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21841256&postcount=45)

[Segev]

The issue is that nothing in your base ability scores say, "While X is so, your score is Y."

They say that your score is Y. Rules on damaging ability scores allow this to be changed.

Those same rules allow your Str to be damaged when it's 19 due to the gauntlets.....but the gauntlets kick back in, note that your str is less than 19 and that you're wearing them, and reset it to 19.

[DivisibleByZero]

The issue is that nothing in your base ability scores say, "While X is so, your score is Y."

They say that your score is Y. Rules on damaging ability scores allow this to be changed.

Those same rules allow your Str to be damaged when it's 19 due to the gauntlets.....but the gauntlets kick back in, note that your str is less than 19 and that you're wearing them, and reset it to 19.

No it doesn't "kick back in" and reset to 19. JC says it doesn't.

[Dr.Samurai]

To me, what the "always 19" side is getting wrong is thinking that this is somehow different from a normal score.
It *is* different from a normal score. It's the effect of a magical item. The difference in opinion here is on what that magical effect is doing.

Crawford's remarks are in line with what we're saying. Yes, it becomes 18. But since you're attuned to the gauntlets and wearing them, it becomes 19.

[DivisibleByZero]

It *is* different from a normal score. It's the effect of a magical item. The difference in opinion here is on what that magical effect is doing.

Crawford's remarks are in line with what we're saying. Yes, it becomes 18. But since you're attuned to the gauntlets and wearing them, it becomes 19.

No.
It doesn't.

There was a second portion of that question (https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/846070317940396032), which read (paraphrased):
Would my Str be 9, 10, 18, 19, or some combination of two of those simultaneously?

His answer: 18

JC answered the question in the first tweet, but if you read both of them you understand what he said.

Question:
Str 10; Ogre gauntlets Str 19; Hit by Shadow for 1pt Str damage; What's my Str? Is it 9, 10, 18, 19, or a combination of two of those simultaneously?
Answer:
18

If it reset to 19, he would have said 19, as that was one of the choices.
He didn't say 19.
There is no reset. Your Str is not 19. 19-1=18
Your Str is 18, just like I said. Just like JC said.

House rule it all you want to, but after 8 pages of what was basically my solitary voice arguing with the masses and being called names, I have been proven correct.

[jas61292]

The issue is that nothing in your base ability scores say, "While X is so, your score is Y."

They say that your score is Y. Rules on damaging ability scores allow this to be changed.

Those same rules allow your Str to be damaged when it's 19 due to the gauntlets.....but the gauntlets kick back in, note that your str is less than 19 and that you're wearing them, and reset it to 19.

Nowhere does it say it "kicks back in" any more than my normal score "kicks back in." If my normal score is 12, the rules set my score to twelve. And the game remembers that my score is 12 no matter what happens, unless I do something to permanently change it, such as an ASI.

But the fact that the game knows my score is 12 doesn't mean this overrides non permanent changes. When I take 3 points of strength drain, I don't get to go "well, I rolled a 12 during character creation, and thus the rules say my score is 12, so even though the drain would make it 9, it then reverts to 12." Is no different with the gauntlets. Yes the rules set your score to 19. This is your score and no one is denying that. But when you take drain, it goes down just like it normally does, because the rule setting it to 19 is no more powerful than the rules setting your base to 12.

Or, how about I put it like this: specific beats general. The gauntlets are more specific than the base rules on ability scores, but ultimately they just set a new general case. A shadow's strength drain is a more specific effect, claiming that the strength score, whatever it is, is reduced.

[Segev]

No it doesn't "kick back in" and reset to 19. JC says it doesn't.

Okay, sounds like RAI is that the gauntlet-granted 19 isn't really a "while" statement. That isn't what the rules say, but I don't care that much so I won't argue it too strenuously.

I do now wonder: Let's say I have an attuned pair of Gauntlets, and I'm wearing them. This makes my Str 19. Without them, my Str is 10. A shadow hits me for 1 point of Str damage. I am now at 18.

What is my Str if I take off the Gauntlets? 9, or 10? Or 18? (I assume not 18.)

I take off the Gauntlets, and while they're off, a shadow hits me for another 1 point of Str damage. Hastily, I put the gauntlets back on. What is my strength? 17, 18, or 19?

[DivisibleByZero]

Or, how about I put it like this: specific beats general. The gauntlets are more specific than the base rules on ability scores, but ultimately they just set a new general case. A shadow's strength drain is a more specific effect, claiming that the strength score, whatever it is, is reduced.

I tried that explanation like 6 pages ago or something.


Okay, sounds like RAI is that the gauntlet-granted 19 isn't really a "while" statement. That isn't what the rules say, but I don't care that much so I won't argue it too strenuously.

I do now wonder: Let's say I have an attuned pair of Gauntlets, and I'm wearing them. This makes my Str 19. Without them, my Str is 10. A shadow hits me for 1 point of Str damage. I am now at 18.

What is my Str if I take off the Gauntlets? 9, or 10? Or 18? (I assume not 18.)

I take off the Gauntlets, and while they're off, a shadow hits me for another 1 point of Str damage. Hastily, I put the gauntlets back on. What is my strength? 17, 18, or 19?

a) You have 1pt of Str damage
19-1=18

b) You still have 1pt of Str damage
10-1=9

c) Hit again, you now have 2pts of Str damage, 10-2=8

d) You put them back on, you still have 2pts of Str damage
19-2=17

Do you see how simple this is?
Not that it matters, because why would you take them off in the middle of combat? Or at all for that matter? But whatever.

[jas61292]

Let's say I'm wearing the gauntlets, get hit by the shadow. My pre-gauntlet strength is 16. I've got 19 because of the gauntlets. I take one point of strength damage. My strength is now 18. I then take the gauntlets off. Is my strength now 15 or is it still 16?

My hand was really itchy, just had to take them off.

15.

The effect says that your strength is reduced by 1d4 until you rest. It does not say it sets itself equal to a score 1d4 les than your current score. So, until you rest, your score is 1d4 less than it would otherwise be. This is a continuous effect that does not go away until you rest. So, to find your score, you take what it would otherwise be, and apply whatever penalty you are suffering from.

This is also another point against the "always 19" crowd. The drain does not go away until you rest. And since the gauntlets do not remove the drain, it still always applies. Meaning that, even if, in theory, it did reset a score drained to 17 back up to 19, at that point, the penalty is not being applied, and since it had not gone away, you must reapply it. This would of course cause an infinite loop, crashing your D&D game. But of course, that is not how it works, because, by the rules, the more specific effect, the ability drain, wins out.

[DivisibleByZero]

Correction.
JC has changed his answer.

https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/846070317940396032
edited/reordered to reflect proper flow

calebrus44‏ @calebrus44 21h21 hours ago
@JeremyECrawford Still looking for an answer: Str 10; Ogre gauntlets Str 19; Hit by Shadow for 1pt Str damage; What's my Str?
calebrus44‏ @calebrus44 21h21 hours ago
@JeremyECrawford Is it 9, 10, 18, 19, or a combination of two of those simultaneously?

Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford 12h12 hours ago
@calebrus44 18
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford 8m8 minutes ago
@calebrus44 I'll give you a re-answer. Read your question too fast over the weekend.
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford 2m2 minutes ago
@calebrus44 It's 19 with the item and 9 without.

And then he tweeted one of his own:

Jeremy Crawford‏
@JeremyECrawford
Jeremy Crawford Retweeted calebrus44
If an ability score is replaced by a magic item while you wear it, a score reduction affects your score, not the score from the item. #DnD

[Temperjoke]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/846382901147004929

"If an ability score is replaced by a magic item while you wear it, a score reduction affects your score, not the score from the item."

[Lucadibeppo]

So the power armor anology wins?

[Dr.Samurai]

That makes more sense to me intuitively.

[BiPolar]

Correction.
JC has changed his answer.

https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/846070317940396032
edited/reordered to reflect proper flow

calebrus44‏ @calebrus44 21h21 hours ago
@JeremyECrawford Still looking for an answer: Str 10; Ogre gauntlets Str 19; Hit by Shadow for 1pt Str damage; What's my Str?
calebrus44‏ @calebrus44 21h21 hours ago
@JeremyECrawford Is it 9, 10, 18, 19, or a combination of two of those simultaneously?

Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford 12h12 hours ago
@calebrus44 18
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford 8m8 minutes ago
@calebrus44 I'll give you a re-answer. Read your question too fast over the weekend.
Jeremy Crawford‏ @JeremyECrawford 2m2 minutes ago
@calebrus44 It's 19 with the item and 9 without.

And then he tweeted one of his own:

Jeremy Crawford‏
@JeremyECrawford
Jeremy Crawford Retweeted calebrus44
If an ability score is replaced by a magic item while you wear it, a score reduction affects your score, not the score from the item. #DnD

What? No Mea Culpa? K.I.S.S.?

Sorry, couldn't help myself. As has been said before, there clearly are two ways of reading this and both do seem acceptable. While I agree with JC in this instance if the table played it as DBZ sees it, then that would be a reasonable decision.

[Lucadibeppo]

So while wearing the gauntlets, you can die from the strength drain, you just will have a 19 effective strength until you fall.

[BiPolar]

So while wearing the gauntlets, you can die from the strength drain, you just will have a 19 effective strength until you fall.

Yes, which also works the power armor analogy. Power Armor doesn't work if you're a corpse :)

[Temperjoke]

Yes, which also works the power armor analogy. Power Armor doesn't work if you're a corpse :)

Depends on if the AI in your power armor can take over all operations while holding your corpse inside.

[Segev]

I tried that explanation like 6 pages ago or something.



a) You have 1pt of Str damage
19-1=18

b) You still have 1pt of Str damage
10-1=9

c) Hit again, you now have 2pts of Str damage, 10-2=8

d) You put them back on, you still have 2pts of Str damage
19-2=17

Do you see how simple this is?
Not that it matters, because why would you take them off in the middle of combat? Or at all for that matter? But whatever.
You know, if you'd actually read and responded to both of the "how it could work" items I brought up much earlier, you'd see that you're re-stating one of the two ways I expressly said it could.

You are espousing "damage" as a variable which is, itself, accumulated, rather than marking a current/maximum value.

[Lucadibeppo]

Depends on if the AI in your power armor can take over all operations while holding your corpse inside.

Or the golem you modified so that you sit in it's chest cavity is still bashing the mobs with your​ corpse flopping about inside.

[Keltest]

I feel vindicated.

[jaappleton]

Crawford just clarified this via Twitter. It takes off YOUR score, not the score adjusted by the item.