Spell Help (Undead Lieutenant)

[BananaNomNom]

Now, in the spell compendium there is a spell called Undead Lieutenant. its description is this:

You empower the subject undead with the authority of command over undead in your control. The targeted undead must have Intelligence 5 or higher. Undead under your control obey the target undead as if it were you. You can give orders to the undead normally, superseding the orders of the subject of this spell. The number of undead you can control is increased by an amount equal to your caster level as long as the undead lieutenant is active. If the target undead creature is destroyed, the spell ends.
You can have only one undead lieutenant at any time.

So, which one below is the correct interpretation.

1. 10th level caster, HD cap + 10

2. 10th level caster, HD cap X 2

[Venger]

2.

if your cl were 11, you would be able to command 11 extra hd of undead.

[BananaNomNom]

2.

if your cl were 11, you would be able to command 11 extra hd of undead.

Bad example so does it double your hit die cap or does it just add you cl to the pool?

[Venger]

Bad example so does it double your hit die cap or does it just add you cl to the pool?

You can normally have 4 x your CL worth of HD in undead obtained through animate dead.

if your CL is 10, you can normally have 40.

if you cast undead lieutenant, you gain your cl, which is 10, in extra undead for a total of 50.

if you are a cleric, or have other methods of rebuking undead, you can also have your effective cleric level in commanded undead in your pool. this is not affected by undead lieutenant.

[OldTrees1]

The number of undead you can control is increased by an amount equal to your caster level as long as the undead lieutenant is active. You can have only one undead lieutenant at any time.

So, which one below is the correct interpretation.

1. 10th level caster, HD cap + 10

2. 10th level caster, HD cap X 2

Bolded for emphasis

It is case #1, your Animate Dead pool increases by +caster level HD(aka +10 if your caster level is 10).

Given that animate dead already grants 4 x caster level in HD and is the weakest command pool, Undead Lieutenant is not used for the pool increasing feature.

[Segev]

Given that animate dead already grants 4 x caster level in HD and is the weakest command pool, Undead Lieutenant is not used for the pool increasing feature.

I don't follow this statement. Why is it the "weakest command pool" (and compared to what other pools), and why would this mean undead lieutenant "is not used for the pool increasing feature?"

I mean, going up to 5x CL isn't nothing.

[frogglesmash]

The spell just says "the number of undead you can control is increased by an amount equal to your caster level." It doesn't say an "amount of HD=to your caster level," and it doesn't specify which control pool is increased. I'm not 100% sure what this means as far as RAW is concerned, but I suspect it could end up being a tad more powerful than intended.

[OldTrees1]

I don't follow this statement. Why is it the "weakest command pool" (and compared to what other pools), and why would this mean undead lieutenant "is not used for the pool increasing feature?"

I mean, going up to 5x CL isn't nothing.

Necromancers in 3.5 of various classes, and the OP's preferred class in particular, have access to 3 main command pools:

Rebuke Undead pool: The smallest pool to be sure, but hold higher quality undead
Command Undead(spell) pool: The largest pool, but only holds mindless undead
Animate Dead pool: Has about the same order of magnitude as the rebuke pool but the quality is barely better than the Command Undead(spell) pool

Hence Animate Dead is the weakest command pool.

1 casting of Undead Lieutenant grants 1xCL HD of undead. 1 casting of Command Undead easily eclipses that. So if Undead Lieutenant has a use, it is not the extra HD. Rather Undead Lieutenant has a 2nd effect (having your undead obey this one).

PS: Going up to 5CL HD is +20HD or +40HD if I am being generous. That is 1-2 20HD skeletons. That does not sound impressive to me.

[Venger]

command undead works on intelligent undead, they just get a save.

[OldTrees1]

command undead works on intelligent undead, they just get a save.

True, but that usage is not as comparable to the other pools so I usually leave it out.

[Zanos]

Rebuke Undead can only control stuff if your turning level is double it's hit dice, and a lot of undead have turn resistance. Unless you're making a spawn factory or cheesing your rebuking level incredibly high, it isn't that great. I'll take the 4 HD=CL giant skeletons instead, thanks.

Undead lieutenant is a bit mediocre. It's good with undead eyes though, as with those together you can command your undead despite not being where they are at all with two low level spells.

I wonder, can you chain spell undead lieutenant?

[OldTrees1]

I wonder, can you chain spell undead lieutenant?
Unfortunately part of the spell's description (see opening post) explicitly limits you to one at a time.

However in a high optimization game would spell clocks of undead lieutenant + undead eyes work as a substitute?

[Venger]

Rebuke Undead can only control stuff if your turning level is double it's hit dice, and a lot of undead have turn resistance. Unless you're making a spawn factory or cheesing your rebuking level incredibly high, it isn't that great. I'll take the 4 HD=CL giant skeletons instead, thanks.

Undead lieutenant is a bit mediocre. It's good with undead eyes though, as with those together you can command your undead despite not being where they are at all with two low level spells.

I wonder, can you chain spell undead lieutenant?

it is a valid target for chain spell, so yes.

you can't cast undead eyes on an undead lieutenant though, since it's mindless only and lieutenants have to have an int of 5+

never heard of that spell before, so thanks for that.

[OldTrees1]

it is a valid target for chain spell, so yes.

you can't cast undead eyes on an undead lieutenant though, since it's mindless only and lieutenants have to have an int of 5+

never heard of that spell before, so thanks for that.

You can have a mindless skeleton stand next to your undead lieutenant.

[Zombimode]

Rebuke Undead can only control stuff if your turning level is double it's hit dice, and a lot of undead have turn resistance. Unless you're making a spawn factory or cheesing your rebuking level incredibly high, it isn't that great. I'll take the 4 HD=CL giant skeletons instead, thanks.

Rebuke Undead gets you Access to Undead you've created via (Greater) Create Undead which has the potential to provide vastly superior undead minions to Animate Dead.

[weckar]

Can your UL have an UL? :smallconfused:

[Khedrac]

Can your UL have an UL? :smallconfused:

It can - but that would not alter the amount of undead that you control. If you read the spell description the UL does not command the undead on your behalf, it merely adds to the number that you command, so its lieutenant adds to the number it can command (if it can) - something that it is not doing.

Now, in theory you can command undead that you command to command other undead, and this should work, but such undead are not commanded by you, you cannot give them instructions directly and a poorly worded command could cause them to attack you...

[Segev]

Necromancers in 3.5 of various classes, and the OP's preferred class in particular, have access to 3 main command pools:

Rebuke Undead pool: The smallest pool to be sure, but hold higher quality undead
Command Undead(spell) pool: The largest pool, but only holds mindless undead
Animate Dead pool: Has about the same order of magnitude as the rebuke pool but the quality is barely better than the Command Undead(spell) pool

Hence Animate Dead is the weakest command pool.Okay, that I follow.

I don't think anything in undead lieutenant prevents it from also commanding undead you control via Rebuke Undead, nor from adding your CL to that pool.

The command undead spell doesn't really give you a "pool" in the same sense, because it's one undead per casting. I wouldn't expect undead lieutenant to expand this.


1 casting of Undead Lieutenant grants 1xCL HD of undead. 1 casting of Command Undead easily eclipses that. So if Undead Lieutenant has a use, it is not the extra HD. Rather Undead Lieutenant has a 2nd effect (having your undead obey this one).

PS: Going up to 5CL HD is +20HD or +40HD if I am being generous. That is 1-2 20HD skeletons. That does not sound impressive to me.The use of undead lieutenant is in expanding your pool of lower-HD undead with a single spell. While it is generally superior to have smaller numbers of high-HD skeletons or zombies, there is a place for the battalion of skeletal archers. One casting of undead lieutenant can add 5 humanoid skeletons to your pool. One casting of command undead could only add one.

But now that I understand that you're comparing command undead and undead lieutenant used on single targets, I see what you mean. And, given the general preference for high-HD mindless minions, I definitely understand why undead lieutenant would be "eclipsed." (Personally, I'm a fan of extended chain command undead, preferably brought back down to a 2nd level slot by a kindergarten of slaymates.



command undead works on intelligent undead, they just get a save.True, but that usage is not as comparable to the other pools so I usually leave it out.Of more concern to me is that intelligent undead are, essentially, merely charmed, and thus control is not guaranteed.




Can your UL have an UL? :smallconfused:It can - but that would not alter the amount of undead that you control. If you read the spell description the UL does not command the undead on your behalf, it merely adds to the number that you command, so its lieutenant adds to the number it can command (if it can) - something that it is not doing.

Now, in theory you can command undead that you command to command other undead, and this should work, but such undead are not commanded by you, you cannot give them instructions directly and a poorly worded command could cause them to attack you...The better way to achieve such command hierarchies is to use spellstitching to give your undead the animate dead spell.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Rebuke Undead pool: The smallest pool to be sure, but hold higher quality undead
Command Undead(spell) pool: The largest pool, but only holds mindless undead
Animate Dead pool: Has about the same order of magnitude as the rebuke pool but the quality is barely better than the Command Undead(spell) pool

Hence Animate Dead is the weakest command pool.

1 casting of Undead Lieutenant grants 1xCL HD of undead. 1 casting of Command Undead easily eclipses that. So if Undead Lieutenant has a use, it is not the extra HD. Rather Undead Lieutenant has a 2nd effect (having your undead obey this one).

PS: Going up to 5CL HD is +20HD or +40HD if I am being generous. That is 1-2 20HD skeletons. That does not sound impressive to me.
Rebuke/Command maximum is HD = your turn level, with no single minion having more than 1/2 your HD.
Command Undead (spell) has no limit besides how many Command Undead spells you can cast before the first ends.
Animate Dead has a limit of 4HD/CL before increases, so it's a lot larger than the rebuke pool even before the increases you can get, and CL is easy to boost. It's just limited to zombies and skeletons.

Personally i'd say Command Undead is the weakest because it can be dispelled, and any hostile action by you or your allies breaks it. The only benefit over Animate Dead is that it's free.

And the increased limit is hardly useless. True, it's not really why you cast the spell and the 24 hour duration means you can't use it to add to your permanent army.
It's still there if you animate some enemies during your fights though. As a side benefit for a 3rd level spell that has no expensive cost that's decent enough.


Rebuke Undead can only control stuff if your turning level is double it's hit dice, and a lot of undead have turn resistance. Unless you're making a spawn factory or cheesing your rebuking level incredibly high, it isn't that great. I'll take the 4 HD=CL giant skeletons instead, thanks.
Rebuke and Animate Undead have different purposes. You use Animate for meatshields, but they tend to have high HD for their CR so they're not good rebuke targets.
Rebuke is more useful for specialized monsters (like a Slaymate or Shadow/Wraith/Allip) or spellcasters you've animated with a template like Spectral Mage or Bonesinger that lets them keep their casting.
Having a free bard or sorcerer under your control is useful even if they have only half your HD, and boosting turning level is pretty easy and not that expensive.

For warriors and clerics you can use Animate Dread Warrior instead, which comes with automatic control. It has some hefty penalties to Int and Cha though so it's not a good method to get arcane casters in your army. Rebuke is perfect for that.

Undead lieutenant is a bit mediocre. It's good with undead eyes though, as with those together you can command your undead despite not being where they are at all with two low level spells.
It's a 3rd level spell. I don't know what you're expecting.
Having a minion to take care of commanding your mook army while you spend your time on actual spellcaster things is useful enough imo.

[Zanos]

Rebuke and Animate Undead have different purposes. You use Animate for meatshields, but they tend to have high HD for their CR so they're not good rebuke targets.
Rebuke is more useful for specialized monsters (like a Slaymate or Shadow/Wraith/Allip) or spellcasters you've animated with a template like Spectral Mage or Bonesinger that lets them keep their casting.
Having a free bard or sorcerer under your control is useful even if they have only half your HD, and boosting turning level is pretty easy and not that expensive.
Sure. But that doesn't make rebuke just better, it makes it different. Creatures with half your HD are going to be used for their unique abilities in supporting roles rather that primary combatants. I'd call it supplementary. A necromancer with just animate dead can be pretty competent at minionmancy. A necromancer with just rebuke undead(if there even are any) is going to have some trouble with their undead contributing to encounters. Outside of spawn chaining and such.


For warriors and clerics you can use Animate Dread Warrior instead, which comes with automatic control. It has some hefty penalties to Int and Cha though so it's not a good method to get arcane casters in your army. Rebuke is perfect for that.
250XP per HD for animate dread warrior is pretty hefty. The spell is still good, but it ain't cheap. I'd rather have a skeleton of some nasty monster for pennies then pay a couple thousand XP for a fighter. Awaken can get you skeletons feats for a much lower price if that matters. Pocket clerics or a warblade is pretty good, though.


It's a 3rd level spell. I don't know what you're expecting.
Having a minion to take care of commanding your mook army while you spend your time on actual spellcaster things is useful enough imo.
Well, good 3rd level spells are haste, slow, and fly. Undead Lieutenant is a pretty good example of an okay spell. It has a niche use for certain builds.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sure. But that doesn't make rebuke just better, it makes it different. Creatures with half your HD are going to be used for their unique abilities in supporting roles rather that primary combatants. I'd call it supplementary. A necromancer with just animate dead can be pretty competent at minionmancy. A necromancer with just rebuke undead(if there even are any) is going to have some trouble with their undead contributing to encounters. Outside of spawn chaining and such.
Even a low level caster can be useful. And incorporeal undead are viable against things with much higher CR than they are even without spawn-chaining.
If you're not investing anything you can't really expect too much imo. And it's not too hard to double your rebuke level without breaking WBL, so that's possibly 2 caster minions with your HD or more.

If your DM ever does the "evil adventuring group" bit as an encounter that's an ideal situation for rebuking. Or anything with good class levels and no racial HD really. Those are useless for Animate Dead anyway.


250XP per HD for animate dread warrior is pretty hefty. The spell is still good, but it ain't cheap. I'd rather have a skeleton of some nasty monster for pennies then pay a couple thousand XP for a fighter. Awaken can get you skeletons feats for a much lower price if that matters. Pocket clerics or a warblade is pretty good, though.
It's essentially a permanent second character if you pick your targets smartly. It has to have some cost to it, and 250XP/HD isn't that much for a permanent minion that's on par with another PC.
XP is a river anyway, so the only thing the XP cost does is prevent you from spamming it to animate every viable target you stumble across. Since it has no other limits that's kind of necessary.

And yeah, you use it on a Warblade or something similar or a wis-based caster for maximum effect. It's for elite troops. Animate Dead takes care of mooks well enough.

[ErebusVonMori]

The Undead Lieutenant says number of undead, not number of hit dice, nor does it specify which pool or method it counts as, so would the correct interpretation be that it allows control over your CL of individual undead entities, regardless of their level, using whatever method you can use.

[Segev]

The Undead Lieutenant says number of undead, not number of hit dice, nor does it specify which pool or method it counts as, so would the correct interpretation be that it allows control over your CL of individual undead entities, regardless of their level, using whatever method you can use.

That is a good point. There is not, to my knowledge, any control pool defined by the number of undead it lets you have. (Command undead is the closest, as it controls one per casting.) No mechanism is given for transferring undead from a HD-based pool to this "body count"-based pool, however. Perhaps the most correct reading is that the undead lieutenant allows you to shunt any that "fall out" of other pools into its granted pool. So if you animate a new skeleton, you can have a zombie that would be freed become part of the list of undead controlled via undead lieutenant's expansion of your pool.

[Venger]

The Undead Lieutenant says number of undead, not number of hit dice, nor does it specify which pool or method it counts as, so would the correct interpretation be that it allows control over your CL of individual undead entities, regardless of their level, using whatever method you can use.

You are correct, but I can't imagine that flying at any PO table.

[ErebusVonMori]

The real question is how deliberate that was, and I don't see how it couldn't be as every other undead spell specifies HD not individual undead. As to how to adjudicate what goes in the pool, I'd say fairest way is you have to declare it as part of the Undead Lieutenant pool either upon casting, or upon taking control of it, with excess entities dropping out of the pool normally.

The most abusive way from the player POV would be to automatically include your highest HD undead, and for the DM vice versa.

This also means that never again must I be allowed to assign my own undead legion, cause the possibility for abuse is huge, meet my lv 18 necropolitan wizard, cleric and druid, my wraith assassin and ninja, and my evolved lich dread necromancer. And I will be stunned the day I meet the DM that lets me get away with that.

[Venger]

The real question is how deliberate that was, and I don't see how it couldn't be as every other undead spell specifies HD not individual undead. As to how to adjudicate what goes in the pool, I'd say fairest way is you have to declare it as part of the Undead Lieutenant pool either upon casting, or upon taking control of it, with excess entities dropping out of the pool normally.

The most abusive way from the player POV would be to automatically include your highest HD undead, and for the DM vice versa.

Right. Since it can allow in any number of HD worth of undead, I don't think it's likely that's going to be allowed at most people's tables, even though I agree that is what the rules say.

I think you give the copyeditors too much credit with how careless they are. This spell is an update/reprint of one from MoF, which doesn't mention HD at all, so they probably just forgot.

[ErebusVonMori]

There is one factor to consider for it being allowed, a lot of really powerful undead will be intelligent and have class levels, which means if they break free, especially if they have ways to dispel it on other undead, aspiring necromantic overlords may find themselves at the mercy of their own minions.


And once the game starts you would have to actually take control of these undead, liches aren't known for being weak willed.

[Venger]

There is one factor to consider for it being allowed, a lot of really powerful undead will be intelligent and have class levels, which means if they break free, especially if they have ways to dispel it on other undead, aspiring necromantic overlords may find themselves at the mercy of their own minions.


And once the game starts you would have to actually take control of these undead, liches aren't known for being weak willed.

Wait, so you're saying the caster
1) controls an intelligent undead such as a nightcrawler (e.g. by command undead and he rolls a 1 or something)
2) cedes control of the lich to the undead lieutenant since he has a lot of HD
3) leaves a gap in his orders so the nightcrawler is able to use its gdm
4) leaves the nightcrawler and the lieutenant unattended

or am I misunderstanding?

[Khedrac]

2) cedes control of the lich to the undead lieutenant since he has a lot of HD
This step need redefining as the spell does not permit the lieutenant to control any undead. Think of the Lieutenant more as an aide who does the bookkeeping allowing you to control more undead than your could otherwise.

Of course, if the spell gets dispelled then the extra undea are no longer controlled by you...

[ErebusVonMori]

No, I'm referring to the fact that intelligent undead will eventually shrug off most controls if they're powerful, so attempts to abuse Undead Lieutenant could backfire horribly as it has no HD limit.

[Zanos]

Oh, that does remind me that animate dead does have one advantage over command undead as far as control pools go. It can't be dispelled or suppressed by antimagic or dead magic, which are the areas where a necromancer is most going to need his minions.

[ErebusVonMori]

One day I really need to put together a list of all available undead control pools. e.g General of Undead (all versions), Nightsticks, etc

[noob]

There is a whole lot of them especially if you count magic items(there is always an obscure magic item controlling undead in yet another obscure pool)

[Segev]

A command-activated item of a 2nd level spell, unlimited uses, is 10,800 gp. A crown that casts command undead at will will give you an enormous number of undead you could control, if you're willing to keep track of how often you need to refresh the control.

[ErebusVonMori]

Yeah, easiest way to tell a necromancer when searching their stuff is all the spreadsheets.

[Segev]

Yeah, easiest way to tell a necromancer when searching their stuff is all the spreadsheets.

Have a part of your day scheduled to deal with any undead that are due for renewing control.

Have a standing order on all of your undead: "Unless I specifically tell you that an order overrides this, no matter what else you're doing at [time you schedule for this] on [day CL days from now], you will report to me and wait for further instructions."

On intelligent undead, you rely on them interpreting everything you say or do in the best way possible to convince them that they want to keep being under the effect and have them specifically seek you out to renew it before it expires.

[ErebusVonMori]

You're forgetting the simple command limitation.

[Venger]

You're forgetting the simple command limitation.

command undead doesn't have a limit

[ErebusVonMori]

I thought it still did for mindless.


When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on. Nonintelligent undead won’t resist suicidal or obviously harmful orders.

[Venger]

I thought it still did for mindless.

I thought you were referring to a limitation on how many guys you could have via command undead.

While commanding them to go to a certain location's probably out, telling them to follow your lieutenant's probably kosher

[ErebusVonMori]

I was referring to Segev's way of organising the recommanding of undead.

[Segev]

That's a fair criticism. Probably would need to do a little more work to wrangle them, then.

[OldTrees1]

I was referring to Segev's way of organising the recommanding of undead.

What skeleton internet software are you using?

I have Awakened Skeletons(Animate Dead) and Undead Eyes Skeletons(Command Undead) plugins in a 2:10 ratio to mimic an Awakened Undead Eye Skeleton system.

[ErebusVonMori]

With those XP costs? Yeesh, after you go over three hundred skeletons that gets steep.

[Zanos]

With those XP costs? Yeesh, after you go over three hundred skeletons that gets steep.

Target: All mindless undead within a circle 25 ft. in radius + 5 ft./2 levels

Awaken Undead costs 200 xp. Once.

[ErebusVonMori]

Ah, I was of the understanding that it was 200xp per skeleton, that's a lot more friendly, though still a pain at epic levels.

[OldTrees1]

With those XP costs? Yeesh, after you go over three hundred skeletons that gets steep.


Ah, I was of the understanding that it was 200xp per skeleton, that's a lot more friendly, though still a pain at epic levels.

I was only suggesting the Animate Dead pool of undead.
4xcl(40 usually for me pre epic) = 160.
5ft squares within 75ft in 2D = 4*(152-75)= 600

So 200xp would still be enough for almost 4 "minimum" sized Animate Dead pools without platforms.

So I have no idea about epic level (seriously, what is the 21st level necromancer's caster level? 100? 1000? 1e6? 1e12?).

[noob]

It can have caster level ranging from 0 to infinity.
but boring people playing in epic will probably only have 21 cl at level 21

[ErebusVonMori]

Dread necromancers also add their Cha bonus multiplied by their dread nec level to the HD pool, which when minmaxing gets insane, especially in gestalt or epic where you'll see heavy abuse of the evolved undead template. Then add General of Undeath, which multplies all that by a factor of four and you've got an insane minion pool.

[Gemini476]

For those curious about the mechanics of the sloppily-converted-from-3.0 Undead Lieutenant, here's how the various pools work in 3.0 (taken from the SRD; significant changes in bold):

Commanded
A commanded undead combatant is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead combatant or combatants in order to command new ones.

Alternatively, an evil cleric may command a single undead combatant with more Hit Dice than he has levels, but he must concentrate continuously to do so (as in concentrating to maintain a spell), and he can command no other undead at the same time.


Don't ask me how that works when you need twice their hit dice to command them - maybe it just does, given that it's temporary and all? Or it's just supposed to tie into Create Undead, I dunno. Someone with more 3.0-fu would need to correct me.

Control Undead
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: Up to 2 HD of undead creatures/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell enables the character to command undead creatures for a short period of time. The character commands the creatures by voice. Telepathic communication is not possible, but the creatures understand the character no matter what language the character speaks. Even if vocal communication is impossible the controlled undead do not attack the character. At the end of the spell, the controlled undead revert to their normal behavior. Intelligent undead remember that the character controlled them.


Command Undead isn't a thing in core 3.0, I don't think? Maybe it's added in that one divine splatbook, whatever it was called. Faith and something? No significant changes in Control Undead, anyhow.

...Wait, according to Google it's from Tome and Blood? Huh. Looks to be basically unchanged, too.

Animate Dead
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Targets: One or more corpses touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow the character's spoken commands. The skeletons or zombies can follow the character, or can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific type of creature) entering the place. The undead remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.)
Regardless of the type of undead, the character can't create more HD of undead than the character has caster levels with a single casting of animate dead.

The undead the character creates remain under the character's control indefinitely. No matter how many times the character uses this spell, however, the character can control only 2 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If the character exceeds this number, all the newly created creatures fall under the character's control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled (the character chooses which creatures are released). If the character is a cleric, any undead the character might command by virtue of the character's power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.

Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones. The statistics for a skeleton depend on its size; they do not depend on what abilities the creature may have had while alive.

Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The creature must have a true anatomy. The statistics for a zombie depend on its size, not on what abilities the creature may have had while alive.

Material Component: The material component must be worth at least 50 gp.


It's half the hit dice but way cheaper, basically.

This is the point where things start to get weird. See, here's how zombies and skeletons work in 3.0:


Size
Skeleton HD
Zombie HD


Tiny
1/4
1/2


Small
1/2
1


Medium
1
2


Large
2
4


Huge
4
8


Gargantuan
16
24


Colossal
32
48


They're not templates, basically - you just turn the corpse into an already-defined monster, much like the Create Undead spells do. Or animated objects, really.

The weirdest thing, though? None of this explains what on earth Undead Lieutenant is going on about. These two pools are still all about the number of hit dice, not the number of creatures.

EDIT: Also, General of Undeath got a major nerf in the Spell Compendium. It went from being a +10*CL HD for 1 day/CL thing to just +CL HD for 24H.

[ErebusVonMori]

Damn, which of the many versions of General of Undeath is the one we're meant to use?

[Venger]

Damn, which of the many versions of General of Undeath is the one we're meant to use?

spell compendium's version is the most recent so would take precedence.

total waste though, since it does the exact same thing as undead lieutenant, but is 5 levels higher

[Segev]

spell compendium's version is the most recent so would take precedence.

total waste though, since it does the exact same thing as undead lieutenant, but is 5 levels higher

Literally exactly the same? It doesn't even provide you an ability to have more than one lieutenant?

[Zanos]

Literally exactly the same? It doesn't even provide you an ability to have more than one lieutenant?
It's actually worse in every way. The only thing it does is increase your HD of undead by CL for 24 hours. Undead Lieutenant lasts for days and does other stuff.

I guess you could stack them to get 6*CL HD in your animate dead pool if you really wanted to, though.

[Gemini476]

Damn, which of the many versions of General of Undeath is the one we're meant to use?

There's actually three versions, apparently: the Magic of Faerûn/Ghostwalk one, giving 10*CL HD, the Players Guide to Faerûn one, giving 5*CL (still lasts for 1 day/CL, though), and then the Spell Compendium one, giving 1*CL and a 24h duration.

That's in roughly chronological order.

It also became [Evil] in the transition to 3.5, I think, unless there was some more general rule in 3.0. So the Evil domain can give you some extra hit dice, I guess.


Also, the reason to use General of Undeath when Undead Lietenant exists is because GoU is a Cleric spell while UL needs to be grabbed from the Sor/Wiz list. And isn't [Evil], if that matters. And doesn't get dispelled by killing your lieutenant, who you presumably have off handling your business remotely since that's probably the best use of it. Why risk your own skin, after all?

Also, Undead Lieutenant also only lasts for 24h - it got a 3.5 update in the Spell Compendium as well. (The original version doesn't give bonus controlled undead and only lasts for 1 min/level.)

[Segev]

There's actually three versions, apparently: the Magic of Faerûn/Ghostwalk one, giving 10*CL HD, the Players Guide to Faerûn one, giving 5*CL (still lasts for 1 day/CL, though), and then the Spell Compendium one, giving 1*CL and a 24h duration.Of those, only 10*CL really sounds worth a 8th level spell slot.

Also, Undead Lieutenant also only lasts for 24h - it got a 3.5 update in the Spell Compendium as well. (The original version doesn't give bonus controlled undead and only lasts for 1 min/level.)What were you supposed to do with it for 1 min/level? :smallconfused:

[Gemini476]

Of those, only 10*CL really sounds worth a 8th level spell slot.
What were you supposed to do with it for 1 min/level? :smallconfused:

It lets your intelligent undead give commands to your troops while you go handle something else, I guess? It seems like a BBEG spell, to be honest, where they just tell their Vampire ally to handle things while they go complete the ritual in the room next door.

Who knows, it's available to fifth-level Wizard and those don't even have Animate Dead yet.

[Segev]

It lets your intelligent undead give commands to your troops while you go handle something else, I guess? It seems like a BBEG spell, to be honest, where they just tell their Vampire ally to handle things while they go complete the ritual in the room next door.

Who knows, it's available to fifth-level Wizard and those don't even have Animate Dead yet.

They do have command undead, though. If that's sufficient "control" over an intelligent undead, you could pass your minions (also controlled by that spell) to him. But at a minute/level, it seems like you could just call out, "Minions! Obey Willie Wight's battle orders!" just as effectively.

[Venger]

Literally exactly the same? It doesn't even provide you an ability to have more than one lieutenant?

It's also worse because while you can zap multiple cronies with undead lieutenant, since this is personal, you can only have it up once.

[Zanos]

It's also worse because while you can zap multiple cronies with undead lieutenant, since this is personal, you can only have it up once.
Undead lieutenant does say you can only have one undead lieutenant at any time.

[ErebusVonMori]

Yeah but is the spell compendium version the most recent version of Undead Lieutenant?

[Segev]

Yeah but is the spell compendium version the most recent version of Undead Lieutenant?

Yes. It does seem to be. I know of no more recent printings.

[ErebusVonMori]

Which makes it the version we're meant to use and thus massively abusable.

[Segev]

Which makes it the version we're meant to use and thus massively abusable.

I suppose you can Extend it for 48 hour durations, and try casting it multiple times. But isn't it an 8th level spell? You only have so many of those per day, and they're usually not something you want to use on just another 15 HD of undead.

[ErebusVonMori]

I was talking Undead Lieutenant, not General of Undeath, though looking at their respective spell levels, was there an error where they mixed the two up?

[Gemini476]

They do have command undead, though. If that's sufficient "control" over an intelligent undead, you could pass your minions (also controlled by that spell) to him. But at a minute/level, it seems like you could just call out, "Minions! Obey Willie Wight's battle orders!" just as effectively.

They don't necessarily have Command Undead, though! It's entirely possible to own Magic of Faerûn without owning Tome and Blood, and AFAIK they were still operating on the "only assume the customer has the core books and this one" thing.

Like I said in my post up there, Command Undead is one of those things that only got integrated into core in 3.5. Like Natural Spell.