Narthex, Wizard Supreme of Probability [3.5 Thought Exercise]

[gooddragon1]

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[Segev]

Could you clarify the parameters of the exercise? I'm not sure what we're supposed to be doing here.

[gooddragon1]

Could you clarify the parameters of the exercise? I'm not sure what we're supposed to be doing here.

Create scenarios or speculate about gameplay in 3.5 where a character dictates the results of all random outcomes.

[AvatarVecna]

Create scenarios or speculate about gameplay in 3.5 where a character dictates the results of all random outcomes.

I think I see why this thought exercise might require some clarification. If the purpose of this thread is to see the kind of ridiculous things that can happen when the dice are inherently and universally biased towards one side, I guess we can have fun with a creative writing assignment about Narthex, the luckiest bastard to ever waltz his way through a minefield, but it's all more or less going to be variations on what you just did.

If you're asking for a character build that actually has mechanics making them more or less immune to bad die rolls, though, that's something entirely different.

[Mechalich]

At 20th level Narthex always wins initiative and can auto-kill 99% of all possible opponents with one of the various save or dies available: wail of the banshee will handle most things. If you have to resort to direct damage, you can always hit with all 4 meteor swarm spheres and deal maximum damage for a total of 192 per casting without even bothering with metamagic.

It's probably more interesting to think about the kind of cheese Narfex can accomplish at level 1.

He still auto-wins initiative and auto-crits with any weapon he carries, so he hits with a scythe for 32 damage every round without any strength bonus or power attack.

[gooddragon1]

I think I see why this thought exercise might require some clarification. If the purpose of this thread is to see the kind of ridiculous things that can happen when the dice are inherently and universally biased towards one side, I guess we can have fun with a creative writing assignment about Narthex, the luckiest bastard to ever waltz his way through a minefield, but it's all more or less going to be variations on what you just did.

If you're asking for a character build that actually has mechanics making them more or less immune to bad die rolls, though, that's something entirely different.

Just the first one. It'll be funnier.

[Gemini476]

The extremes of probability are a bit interesting.

A gnome hooked hammer does 48 damage (or 34 according to the text? Something's up with the SRD, here.) Plus 5*STR, so our 18-STR first-level Wizard does 54-68 damage.

As long as the target is not immune to death from massive damage (e.g. Divine Rank 1+) or has Damage Reduction, this instantly kills them.

They might die anyway, though - they only have Level*(CON+1) hit points, after all. (Swap to a Scythe for a single hit of 48 damage if they have damage reduction. Consider being a Half-Orc Scythe Wizard for a base 52 damage.)

[Psyren]

It would make for a pretty boring game; rolling dice and not knowing exactly what will happen is more or less the point.

Purely as a character in-universe on the other hand, he'll have disproportionate success to the level of effort/preparation he puts into most endeavors, which for a wizard means he'll probably be running the continent if not the planet before too long (assuming he wants to.) Otherwise he'll likely end up a recluse to stop people from making him their leader against his wishes.

Am I doing it right?

[the_archduke]

Wouldn't his HP be 160? 4 each level from rolling and +4 from an 18 CON since he rolled straight 18s at character creation?

[gooddragon1]

It would make for a pretty boring game; rolling dice and not knowing exactly what will happen is more or less the point.

Purely as a character in-universe on the other hand, he'll have disproportionate success to the level of effort/preparation he puts into most endeavors, which for a wizard means he'll probably be running the continent if not the planet before too long (assuming he wants to.) Otherwise he'll likely end up a recluse to stop people from making him their leader against his wishes.

Am I doing it right?

It's actually hard to do it wrong with a thought exercise :D.


Wouldn't his HP be 160? 4 each level from rolling and +4 from an 18 CON since he rolled straight 18s at character creation?

I wasn't sure whether to have it work that way, but it could.

[Remuko]

The extremes of probability are a bit interesting.

A gnome hooked hammer does 48 damage (or 34 according to the text? Something's up with the SRD, here.) Plus 5*STR, so our 18-STR first-level Wizard does 54-68 damage.

As long as the target is not immune to death from massive damage (e.g. Divine Rank 1+) or has Damage Reduction, this instantly kills them.

They might die anyway, though - they only have Level*(CON+1) hit points, after all. (Swap to a Scythe for a single hit of 48 damage if they have damage reduction. Consider being a Half-Orc Scythe Wizard for a base 52 damage.)

The text on the SRD for the hammer is using the small size damage (since its a gnome weapon and gnomes are small). A Gnome Hooked Hammer sized for a medium creature does the 48 you're thinking of and the small one does 34.

[gooddragon1]

Scythe 8d4=32, Orc 18+4=22=+6->+9 twohanding x 4 = 36, 36+32=68. Even against DR 15 that's massive damage range. If they have DR 20, you could just cast magic weapon for an extra +4 damage.

Potential problems would be anything with save or partial effects.

[Bucky]

Narthex gets random encounters that happen to be carrying scrolls he needs.

[Particle_Man]

There was something like this in GURPS.

Luck was 15 points but was just a "Best of three rolls, once per player hour".

Super Luck was 100 points (!) but was a "dictate the result of a roll, once per player hour".

So far so good, but then one designer said that to make Luck continuous, multiply the cost by 20.

So for +200% (2100 points) (admittedly a lot of points in GURPS), you could theoretically dictate the results of your die rolls (and GM's die rolls made on your behalf), continuously. In 3rd ed, when you rolled to dodge attacks, it makes you unhittable, I think.

Ah, in 4th ed, they closed the loophole (you cannot take Super Luck more than once).

Anyhow, back to your OP, I think there are some powers (a chaos maneuver in ToB, etc.) that basically say "when you get max on a die roll, roll another die and add it" so that leads to infinite damage for your character's meelee weapon attacks.

[Venger]

There was something like this in GURPS.

Luck was 15 points but was just a "Best of three rolls, once per player hour".

Super Luck was 100 points (!) but was a "dictate the result of a roll, once per player hour".

So far so good, but then one designer said that to make Luck continuous, multiply the cost by 20.

So for +200% (2100 points) (admittedly a lot of points in GURPS), you could theoretically dictate the results of your die rolls (and GM's die rolls made on your behalf), continuously. In 3rd ed, when you rolled to dodge attacks, it makes you unhittable, I think.

Ah, in 4th ed, they closed the loophole (you cannot take Super Luck more than once).

Anyhow, back to your OP, I think there are some powers (a chaos maneuver in ToB, etc.) that basically say "when you get max on a die roll, roll another die and add it" so that leads to infinite damage for your character's meelee weapon attacks.

crusader's aura of chaos stance is what powers the d2 crusader. this character could use it with a normal weapon, but since the trick already deals infinite damage, there's no additional utility.

[gooddragon1]

crusader's aura of chaos stance is what powers the d2 crusader. this character could use it with a normal weapon, but since the trick already deals infinite damage, there's no additional utility.

Lightning mace feat could be fun though. Maybe combo with blood in the water stance. Not sure, but Narthex might be able to hold his breath indefinitely.

[Venger]

Lightning mace feat could be fun though. Maybe combo with blood in the water stance. Not sure, but Narthex might be able to hold his breath indefinitely.

I mean, aura of chaos already lets you deal NI damage, so lightning mace contributes nothing.

You can't hold your breath indefinitely because nat 20ing on an ability check doesn't allow you to automatically beat it. you could hold your breath for 2x con rounds, then whatever your con mod is + 20 -10 rounds, and after that you drown.

[AvatarVecna]

I mean, aura of chaos already lets you deal NI damage, so lightning mace contributes nothing.

Aura of Chaos lets you deal infinite damage to a single target. Lightning Maces or Roundabout Kick gives you infinite attacks, so while it doesn't increase your maximum DPR (which was already infinite), it does increase the number of targets we can take down with our DPR. Of course, we eventually run out of targets within reach of our maces, so we need either infinite speed with the ability to move between attacks (arbitrary CL shenanigans+Footsteps Of The divine+Dervish 1), or some way to use AoC with a ranged weapon (the feat/weapon enchantment that gives infinite range, and...I'm not sure sure how to get AoC with a ranged weapon).

[Venger]

Aura of Chaos lets you deal infinite damage to a single target. Lightning Maces or Roundabout Kick gives you infinite attacks, so while it doesn't increase your maximum DPR (which was already infinite), it does increase the number of targets we can take down with our DPR. Of course, we eventually run out of targets within reach of our maces, so we need either infinite speed with the ability to move between attacks (arbitrary CL shenanigans+Footsteps Of The divine+Dervish 1), or some way to use AoC with a ranged weapon (the feat/weapon enchantment that gives infinite range, and...I'm not sure sure how to get AoC with a ranged weapon).

Fair enough.

The simplest way would probably be to just improve your reach. Either boosting your size or using a sizing weapon would give you all the reach you need.

Since we're comfortably in the realm of TO, you can use blood in the water and carry around a bag of rats to give yourself an arbitrary bonus to hit, allowing you to ignore penalties for using a really big weapon.

[icefractal]

Being a 20th level Wizard seems overkill when you already have control of probability (or vice-versa, maybe). I'm kind of curious what the lowest level character who can win everything (or at least most things) using probability control is.

Offense is somewhat easy (+0 UMD lets you use all wands via nat 20, foes always getting a nat 1 means those wands are very effective), and guaranteed scythe-crits can go decently far. Defense is the harder part, since even max rolls for HP and minimum rolls for damage only go so far, and some attacks don't miss. Getting Evasion + Mettle would help a lot; at that point you only have to worry about no-save stuff.

Edit: Acquiring some amount of SR, plus incorporeality, would help with some of the no-save cases. You can force non-[Force] magic to miss, and you can force nat 1 on the SR checks. Still, there's a big difference between defeating generic foes (everything in MM1-5, for example) and foes that are tailored to kill you. Against the latter, you need some solid power of your own or at least a gimmick that can kill them first.

[Venger]

Being a 20th level Wizard seems overkill when you already have control of probability (or vice-versa, maybe). I'm kind of curious what the lowest level character (using NPC classes for bonus points) who can win everything (or at least most things) using probability control is.

I think a low-level Expert could get surprisingly far. UMD + nat 20 lets you use most things, and forcing foes to roll a natural 1 on their saves makes low-level wands pretty damn effective.

even assuming you can make all your rolls 20s and all their rolls 1s, you are still vulnerable to an adversary who simply chooses not to roll any dice at all, such as a competently built caster.

a metamagiced hail of stone, even if you can force minimum damage will still kill you, and while you can force enemies to fail saves, immunities will still exist.

[Zancloufer]

Aura of Chaos lets you deal infinite damage to a single target. Lightning Maces or Roundabout Kick gives you infinite attacks, so while it doesn't increase your maximum DPR (which was already infinite), it does increase the number of targets we can take down with our DPR. Of course, we eventually run out of targets within reach of our maces, so we need either infinite speed with the ability to move between attacks (arbitrary CL shenanigans+Footsteps Of The divine+Dervish 1), or some way to use AoC with a ranged weapon (the feat/weapon enchantment that gives infinite range, and...I'm not sure sure how to get AoC with a ranged weapon).

Wolf Pack Tactics has you covered. Free 5ft step with every attack. If you have infinite attacks from something like Lightning Mace you will gain infinite 5ft steps with the stance.



Offense is somewhat easy (+0 UMD lets you use all wands via nat 20, foes always getting a nat 1 means those wands are very effective), and guaranteed scythe-crits can go decently far. Defense is the harder part, since even max rolls for HP and minimum rolls for damage only go so far, and some attacks don't miss. Getting Evasion + Mettle would help a lot; at that point you only have to worry about no-save stuff.

1) UMD is Trained only, therefore you need at least one rank to attempt it. (2) UMD does not auto fail/succeed on a 1/20. If you roll a 1 AND it doesn't make the DC you cannot use the item for 24 hours. You still need an effective UMD of 20 to hit the max DC of 40. Though with even 1 rank you can use any want in existence if you can roll a 19+ always.

[Dagroth]

Wolf Pack Tactics has you covered. Free 5ft step with every attack. If you have infinite attacks from something like Lightning Mace you will gain infinite 5ft steps with the stance.

True, but now you've lost the NI damage of Aura of Chaos.

I suppose you could do it with Warblade 20 & two Martial Study (Devoted Spirit) a Martial Stance feat...

[Venger]

True, but now you've lost the NI damage of Aura of Chaos.

I suppose you could do it with Warblade 20 & two Martial Study (Devoted Spirit) a Martial Stance feat...

or you could do master of nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=4967238&postcount=27)

[AvatarVecna]

True, but now you've lost the NI damage of Aura of Chaos.

I suppose you could do it with Warblade 20 & two Martial Study (Devoted Spirit) a Martial Stance feat...

Infinite attacks via Lightning Maces/Roundabout Kick gives NI damage anyway, although each individual attack is finite, which means there's a level of DR or whatever that can't be overcome with our attacks. If you could find another mechanic giving exploding damage dice, though, that would do the trick...or even just something giving tons of damage, like Festering Anger+Cancer Mage for infinitely-self-stacking Str bonus to attack/damage. If that damage scales too slowly, throw a Hulking Hurler level into the mix and Wish for a magic enchanted boulder the size of a bowling ball that always weighs exactly your light load maximum, and that never has any unwanted side effects from being so dense.

Or, if dual stances is the preferred method, be an Illithid Savant 3 and eat the Warlord 20's brain to steal Dual Stance from them.


or you could do master of nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=4967238&postcount=27)

The Master Of Nine class grants it for a limited number of rounds, so it's doable as long as our rounds of nigh-infinite murder and destruction are less than (class level*2) per day. Getting it all day is preferable.

[Venger]

Infinite attacks via Lightning Maces/Roundabout Kick gives NI damage anyway, although each individual attack is finite, which means there's a level of DR or whatever that can't be overcome with our attacks. If you could find another mechanic giving exploding damage dice, though, that would do the trick...or even just something giving tons of damage, like Festering Anger+Cancer Mage for infinitely-self-stacking Str bonus to attack/damage. If that damage scales too slowly, throw a Hulking Hurler level into the mix and Wish for a magic enchanted boulder the size of a bowling ball that always weighs exactly your light load maximum, and that never has any unwanted side effects from being so dense.

Or, if dual stances is the preferred method, be an Illithid Savant 3 and eat the Warlord 20's brain to steal Dual Stance from them.

The Master Of Nine class grants it for a limited number of rounds, so it's doable as long as our rounds of nigh-infinite murder and destruction are less than (class level*2) per day. Getting it all day is preferable.
If you used lightning mace/roundabout kick in conjunction with aura of chaos, each attack deals infinite damage, so DR is not relevant.

As I always say, osmium yo-yo's where it's at for a hulking hurler's weapon of choice.

I know we're well into TO at this point, but are you saying infinite attacks with infinite damage and the ability to move infinitely wouldn't be enough?

Just use your bag of rats and fly all over the damn place to kill whoever you want. At this point, the duration that mo9 technically imposes is largely meaningless.

[AvatarVecna]

If you used lightning mace/roundabout kick in conjunction with aura of chaos, each attack deals infinite damage, so DR is not relevant.

That was in regards to "if you don't have Aura Of Chaos, you don't infinite DPR"; I was pointing out that you still had infinite DPR, just not necessarily infinite Damage Per Attack, in which case DR could be problematic if it was high enough.


I know we're well into TO at this point, but are you saying infinite attacks with infinite damage and the ability to move infinitely wouldn't be enough?

Just use your bag of rats and fly all over the damn place to kill whoever you want. At this point, the duration that mo9 technically imposes is largely meaningless.

Infinite speed as long as you're making attack rolls that never miss and do infinite damage. And unless that's an infinite bag of rats, it's not going to get us super-far on its own. Seems like a very destructive method of movement that one might not wish to employ constantly, is all I'm saying. Doing non-movement/attack/damage things still requires actual actions and stuff, so if you want to still do those without giving up your infinite speed, we need to find ways to get free skill checks uses for every attack we make.

Now, if our goal is "destroy the entire earth and everything on/in it as fast as possible" (that is to say, if murder and destruction ASAP are the only things we care about), then a single round of dual stances is all we need to accomplish our goals.

[Venger]

That was in regards to "if you don't have Aura Of Chaos, you don't infinite DPR"; I was pointing out that you still had infinite DPR, just not necessarily infinite Damage Per Attack, in which case DR could be problematic if it was high enough.

Infinite speed as long as you're making attack rolls that never miss and do infinite damage. And unless that's an infinite bag of rats, it's not going to get us super-far on its own. Seems like a very destructive method of movement that one might not wish to employ constantly, is all I'm saying. Doing non-movement/attack/damage things still requires actual actions and stuff, so if you want to still do those without giving up your infinite speed, we need to find ways to get free skill checks uses for every attack we make.

Now, if our goal is "destroy the entire earth and everything on/in it as fast as possible" (that is to say, if murder and destruction ASAP are the only things we care about), then a single round of dual stances is all we need to accomplish our goals.
Okay, that makes sense.

As I mentioned earlier, if you're not doing festering anger as you said, then you can rack up an arbitrary bonus to-hit with blood in the water and a bag of rats.

At this stage, getting an infinite rat bag (or spider bag since you can fit more fine creatures in a bag of holding) is certainly within the realm of possibility. even if an infinite one is vetoed, you can fit an awful lot of spiders into extradimensional storage spaces, easily more than enough to overcome any given encounter and effectively move freely around the battlefield.

master pickpocket enables the use of sleight of hand as a free a more attractive option.

I don't think I ever said this trick would let you do everything for free in one turn.

I don't know any way to make free skill checks directly related to attack. I'd been assuming all the tricks I said came from one reasonably consistent build (now somewhat codified into something that goes into master of 9)

[AvatarVecna]

As I mentioned earlier, if you're not doing festering anger as you said, then you can rack up an arbitrary bonus to-hit with blood in the water and a bag of rats.

We already have infinite accuracy, we roll all 20s.

[Venger]

We already have infinite accuracy, we roll all 20s.

derp. force of habit. in that case, his attack rolls won't miss anyway.

[ben-zayb]

In some version of the story, the red dragon knocked over the boulders in a panicked attempt to escape, completely blocking the cavern entrance and Narthex's only source of light1. Since it was still able to cast spells for escaping, the red dragon promptly casts a Greater Arcane Fusion of Ghostform2 and Wind Wall3 and a quickened Blink4 to leave the cavern as soon as its next turn came up.

Narthex then drew his vorpal dagger, and made a thrown vorpal attack that miraculously hit for a decapitating strike.

After that, Narthex, too immobile in his mountain plate5 and tower shield6 to dig his way out, cast Teleport to arrive on-target at a location he has only seen once


1 50% miss chance due to being blinded
2 50% chance to negate damage from magic weapons
3 30% miss chance
4 50% miss chance
5 60% arcane spell failure
6 50% arcane spell failure

[Mr Adventurer]

Without intervention, Narthex (if human) will live to be 110 years of age. If an elf, 750 years.

He really loves the Reincarnation spell, though! In fact, his Druid friend murdering him and then using Last Breath is a legitimate alternative to polymorphing.