Liches and Clones

[Xar Zarath]

So I know there have been a few threads on liches and clones but bear with me on this one. This is based of the lich template's previous rule where in the older edtions, you had to have a spare body lying around in order to get back up again out of your phylactery, whereas now you can just do that in 1d10 days time.

So for this we go now to the scenario below.

Let's say Lich McLicherson decides that one day for whatever reason, is tired of running around as an undead and for kicks wants to give life another go. Rather than simply polymorph/shapechange etc Lich decides to give clones a good old college try.

McLicherson captures A, a very good looking, healthy young body (gender indeterminate, up to you really) and makes clones of A using the Clone spell. After creating a number of clones Lich casts Trap the Soul on A, ensuring that no hijinks can happen while slipping into a fresh body.

So this is where it becomes a bit rules or fluffs depending on how you look at it. McLicherson gets destroyed, body gets dusted but the souls survives and goes into the shiny phylactery. Now Lich's soul leaps out and gets a hold of A's clone, one of many as stated above.

So my questions are:

1) Does anyone still go by the whole 'needs a body to come back if destroyed' anymore? or is it just '1d10 days pop back out' rule for most of you?

2) Can Lich McLicherson actually possess a clone of A? (regardless of whatever you posted in 1)

2a) Would the clone of A turn undead or rot or do anything out of the ordinary if McLicherson entered it?

3) Is this whole idea slightly convoluted or slightly cool? Be honest:smallredface:

[Venger]

So I know there have been a few threads on liches and clones but bear with me on this one. This is based of the lich template's previous rule where in the older edtions, you had to have a spare body lying around in order to get back up again out of your phylactery, whereas now you can just do that in 1d10 days time.

So for this we go now to the scenario below.

Let's say Lich McLicherson decides that one day for whatever reason, is tired of running around as an undead and for kicks wants to give life another go. Rather than simply polymorph/shapechange etc Lich decides to give clones a good old college try.

McLicherson captures A, a very good looking, healthy young body (gender indeterminate, up to you really) and makes clones of A using the Clone spell. After creating a number of clones Lich casts Trap the Soul on A, ensuring that no hijinks can happen while slipping into a fresh body.

So this is where it becomes a bit rules or fluffs depending on how you look at it. McLicherson gets destroyed, body gets dusted but the souls survives and goes into the shiny phylactery. Now Lich's soul leaps out and gets a hold of A's clone, one of many as stated above.

So my questions are:

1) Does anyone still go by the whole 'needs a body to come back if destroyed' anymore? or is it just '1d10 days pop back out' rule for most of you?

2) Can Lich McLicherson actually possess a clone of A? (regardless of whatever you posted in 1)

2a) Would the clone of A turn undead or rot or do anything out of the ordinary if McLicherson entered it?

3) Is this whole idea slightly convoluted or slightly cool? Be honest:smallredface:

1) I don't know what this refers to. There's no requirement that a lich's body be whole for it to come back.

2) not with the method you've outlined, since there's no reason the lich's spirit would possess A's body. that said, there are many ways to steal another character's body. most of the simplest ones involve use of the mind switch power.

2a) no. the template was applied to the lich's body. it doesn't carry over when in the possession of a new body.

3) is your goal to accomplish a specific end? (I want my character to steal A's body) if so, we can help you figure it out. is this just some story stuff where the lich is your boss and is trying to jack an NPC's body and your party's supposed to stop it? in that instance, you're probably fine to say this is a variant way of how liches work in your campaign.

[Jowgen]

1) No, not come across it myself.
2) Not while it's just a soul, needs the ability to take actions to use any given method.
2a) The clone body will be fine, but if anything, I'd be concerned on whether the Phylactery remains functional after McLicherson essentially returns to life (i.e. where does the template go?).
3) It's got flavour, just needs a little streamlining.

I think you might be find the Necklace of Soul Switching from Dragon 294 p. 77 of interest.

[OldTrees1]

So my questions are:

1) Does anyone still go by the whole 'needs a body to come back if destroyed' anymore? or is it just '1d10 days pop back out' rule for most of you?

2) Can Lich McLicherson actually possess a clone of A? (regardless of whatever you posted in 1)

2a) Would the clone of A turn undead or rot or do anything out of the ordinary if McLicherson entered it?

3) Is this whole idea slightly convoluted or slightly cool? Be honest:smallredface:

1) The 3rd edition Lich does not need a corpse. I fluff it as the phylactery regenerates your form over 1d10 days.

[Xar Zarath]

3) is your goal to accomplish a specific end?

Basically the lich template still works for McLicherson, he gets to wear a living body for what can be best described as s*it and giggles. Lich wants to parade around as a living person just for the sake of it.


2a) The clone body will be fine, but if anything, I'd be concerned on whether the Phylactery remains functional after McLicherson essentially returns to life (i.e. where does the template go?).

Hmm that's the thing. I would see it as the phylactery working fine, the lich's soul just happens to be riding another "empty" body. Soon as McLicherson dies in that clone of A, Lich snaps back into phylactery and can then proceed to possess another clone or 1d10 his way out of there.

Also, I do remember there being a rule in maybe 2nd edition or such where the lich needs a spare body lying around near the phylactery to pop back out again. Or maybe that's dracoliches because as far as I know only dracoliches need spare corpses lying around.

[ksbsnowowl]

The only Third Edition Liches that do as the OP is describing are Dracoliches (FRCS, Draconomicon) and Suel Liches (Dragon #339). The Dracolich does pretty much exactly what you describe (must have dead bodies scattered nearby to its phylactery), while the Suel Lich doesn't have a phylactery at all, and has a malevolence ability much like a ghost, and can only exist for a short time outside of a possessed body. When its possessed body is destroyed, the Suel Lich is forced out of the body and resumes an incorporeal existence.