mage slayer feat timing

[Camman1984]

I am curious about the timing of mage slayer attacks of opportunity and forcing concentration checks.

If an enemy casts a buff (for example invisibility) do I attack before the spell, allowing me to hit an unbuffered target but allowing him to get the buff off.

or do I attack after the spell is cast, meaning I am attacking a buffed enemy, but if I hit, it will force a concentration check and potentially break the buff spell.

[DivisibleByZero]

or do I attack after the spell is cast, meaning I am attacking a buffed enemy, but if I hit, it will force a concentration check and potentially break the buff spell.

This.
A reaction happens after the trigger unless timing is specified otherwise.

[Corran]

What Divisible said.

A follow up question: If I am a vengeance paly with relentless avenger and the mage slayer feat, and an enemy caster adjacent to me casts misty step to teleport, say, 10 feet away from me, can I use my movement from relentless avenger to close in on him and then make the attack from mage slayer?

[DivisibleByZero]

What Divisible said.

A follow up question: If I am a vengeance paly with relentless avenger and the mage slayer feat, and an enemy caster adjacent to me casts misty step to teleport, say, 10 feet away from me, can I use my movement from relentless avenger to close in on him and then make the attack from mage slayer?

Yes.
Relentless Avenger moves as a part of the reaction.
Normally, a caster who Misty Steps away doesn't provoke from a Mage Slayer because when the attack procs he's already gone. In this particular case, the Pally could move to the caster and still get that attack, assuming he can actually get to the caster via normal movement.

[Corran]

Yes.
Relentless Avenger moves as a part of the reaction.
Normally, a caster who Misty Steps away doesn't provoke from a Mage Slayer because when the attack procs he's already gone. In this particular case, the Pally could move to the caster and still get that attack, assuming he can actually get to the caster via normal movement.
Hmmm..... Vengeance paly, 9th level, with haste on, mage slayer and GWM. Sounds like fun!
Also, thanks, been wondering if that could work for some time now, and always forgot to ask while in here...

[Camman1984]

thanks for that, my rogue is going mage Hunter next level so knowing which order things happen is going to be important. although being able to turn invisible/teleported away without fear of me gutting them is a disappointment :p

[Misterwhisper]

This.
A reaction happens after the trigger unless timing is specified otherwise.

If that was the case then reaction action defenses would not work because the event already happened.

Mage slayer has to give you the attack while the caster casts the spell but before the effect happens.

Also otherwise every travel spell would just laugh at the specific feat designed to give people the ability to hit people casting.

It would also make it impossible for anyone to ever kill a competent caster unless they can one turn kill them.

[Corran]

thanks for that, my rogue is going mage Hunter next level so knowing which order things happen is going to be important. although being able to turn invisible/teleported away without fear of me gutting them is a disappointment :p
Well, it isn't all that bad. Dont forget, if that enemy caster is using his action to teleport away, then this is one round he is not hurling any spells at you and your party, so that's a win. Even if he uses his bonus action to teleport, via some spell like misty step, he cannot cast anything other than a cantrip with his action due to bonus action spell casting rules, so again, that's pretty good.

Also, even if he turns invisible, you still get to make that reaction attack (it is not an OA so it doesnt matter if you cannot see him, and your reaction although it takes place after him casting invisibility, it also takes place before he has a chance of freely moving away without provoking OA's due to being unseen), though at disadvantage. Though disadvantage may kill sneak attack for your rogue, if you do actually manage to hit him, he may not take much damage, BUT.... he will make his save to maintain invisibility with disadvantage, so that most likely means that he will lose concantration. In that case, you just traded your reaction in order for him to lose his action, a spell slot, and take a little damage from your weapon too. And on your next turn you are still adjacent to him. Not bad at all.

All in all, mage slayer might prove to be much better than you think right now.

[Dalebert]

If that was the case then reaction action defenses would not work because the event already happened.


...unless timing is specified otherwise.

Like DBZ says, if an ability interrupts and potentially prevents something from happening, it says so, e.g. Cutting Words, Shield, Counterspell. Mage Slayer doesn't say that because it doesn't.


Mage slayer has to give you the attack while the caster casts the spell but before the effect happens.

Uh... no. Why?


Also otherwise every travel spell would just laugh at the specific feat designed to give people the ability to hit people casting.

It just sounds like you want it to be better than it's actually meant to be. It's an I-have-an-edge-on-casters feat; not an automatic-win-against-casters feat. Nor should it be. That would be absurd.


It would also make it impossible for anyone to ever kill a competent caster unless they can one turn kill them.

Wha... Have you ever played D&D 5e? I see casters get killed all the time. How unimaginative are you?

[djreynolds]

I am curious about the timing of mage slayer attacks of opportunity and forcing concentration checks.

If an enemy casts a buff (for example invisibility) do I attack before the spell, allowing me to hit an unbuffered target but allowing him to get the buff off.

or do I attack after the spell is cast, meaning I am attacking a buffed enemy, but if I hit, it will force a concentration check and potentially break the buff spell.

The second part of mage slayer has no range requirement, so an archer with this can break up concentration all day from a distance.

The 1st and 3rd require you are within 5ft and the spell goes off first


Nick Thompson ‎

Mage Slayer feat work with reach weapons/attacks? able to attack a creature casting 10 away if you have a 10 reach?

The first benefit of the Mage Slayer feat has a fixed range of 5 ft. Such a range is unaffected by reach. #DnD

[Desamir]

Like DBZ says, if an ability interrupts and potentially prevents something from happening, it says so, e.g. Cutting Words, Shield, Counterspell. Mage Slayer doesn't say that because it doesn't.

What about Absorb Elements?

[djreynolds]

What about Absorb Elements?

The caster casts a spell, now you can use your reaction to attack.

If the caster has the shield spell or absorb elements, he can use his reaction

So a wizard say casts hold person, if you are next to him you get advantage on the save vs that spell and can attack... but the wizards can use his reaction to block with shield or absorb elements say if your sword was a flame tongue.

[Misterwhisper]

Like DBZ says, if an ability interrupts and potentially prevents something from happening, it says so, e.g. Cutting Words, Shield, Counterspell. Mage Slayer doesn't say that because it doesn't.



Uh... no. Why?



It just sounds like you want it to be better than it's actually meant to be. It's an I-have-an-edge-on-casters feat; not an automatic-win-against-casters feat. Nor should it be. That would be absurd.



Wha... Have you ever played D&D 5e? I see casters get killed all the time. How unimaginative are you?

So if an assassin who is trained to kill casters it trying to kill any caster in the game who has any kind of decent travel spell, such as D-door, teleport or what have you, has no chance to ever stop the caster from leaving or hitting them if they try because the spell happens before a specific feat designed to give people the ability to actually hit a caster while casting, and you can not hit them with a readied action either because they get the spell off even if you ready the action to happen if they start casting a spell.

That is just plain stupid.

[Ursus the Grim]

So if an assassin who is trained to kill casters it trying to kill any caster in the game who has any kind of decent travel spell, such as D-door, teleport or what have you, has no chance to ever stop the caster from leaving or hitting them if they try because the spell happens before a specific feat designed to give people the ability to actually hit a caster while casting, and you can not hit them with a readied action either because they get the spell off even if you ready the action to happen if they start casting a spell.

That is just plain stupid.

An assassin isn't supposed to fight fair. When you're up against a Mage, you need to prepare. An Assassin should really be engaging on his terms, in a situation where he can get a surprise round. An assassin deals half his level in d6s, plus the original damage die, doubled during a surprise round.


Third Level: Dex 18 Rogue makes an Surprise Rapier Attack with Advantage against a Con 12 Wizard. It hits for 2d8+4d6+3 damage, for an average of 26 in one hit. On average, that Wizard will have 15 hit points at third level.

Fifth Level: As above, except now the Rogue hits for 2d8+6d6+3 damage, for an average of 33. The Wizard probably only has 27 hit points.

And so on. Eventually we do get to the point where the Rogue needs to use his off-hand weapon, and possibly his next turn (which occurs before the Wizard gets to act, normally) to finish him off.

Seventeenth Level: Here's where things get interesting. "Ursus, Wizards get Foresight now! They can't be surprised!'. Sure. But they're now using a level 9 spell to counter you. That's a level 9 slot they aren't using for things like Wish, Meteor Storm, or Time Stop. And remember what I said about preparation? The spell only lasts for 1/3 of a day. During the other 16 hours, they're without Foresight (or any 9th level spell.) Meanwhile, the Assassin has picked up Death Strike. A surprised Wizard has to make a DC 19 Constitution Save, or die instantly. Even if they pass somehow (moderately unlikely) they take double damage - double damage which is already multiplied by virtue of your assassinate ability, and will likely KO the wizard anyway. And if you're wielding an off-hand weapon, they need to make the save as soon as you hit the second time anyway.

All of this with just a regular, vanilla Assassin Rogue. Not even some horrifying Fighter/Paladin/Rogue multiclass.

A mage-killer assassin can pretty reliably OHKO a mage of his level, if he's smart.

I mean, a wizard using his action to cast Misty Step or D-Door isn't much less fair than a rogue Disengage+Dashing. You're not going to keep up with either of them for very long.

[DivisibleByZero]

So if an assassin who is trained to kill casters it trying to kill any caster in the game who has any kind of decent travel spell, such as D-door, teleport or what have you, has no chance to ever stop the caster from leaving or hitting them if they try because the spell happens before a specific feat designed to give people the ability to actually hit a caster while casting, and you can not hit them with a readied action either because they get the spell off even if you ready the action to happen if they start casting a spell.

That is just plain stupid.

Emphasis mine.
This isn't 3.5, and that isn't what this feat does.
It is not designed to hit a caster while casting. It is designed to punish a caster for casting. That punishment happens after the spell is cast.

A reaction occurs after the trigger unless that reaction specifies timing otherwise.
If the thing that triggered your reaction creates a situation where said reaction can no longer occur (like in the case of Mage Slayer vs Misty Step casting), then that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Search sageadvice.eu or twitter, or probably even the Sage Advice column. You'll see quite clearly that this has been explained over and over again for years now.
Or better yet, just read the DMG.

ADJUDICATING REACTION TIMING
Typical combatants rely on the opportunity attack
and the Ready action for most of their reactions in a
fight. Various spells and features give a creature more
reaction options, and sometimes the timing of a reacti -
can be difficult to adjudicate. Use this rule of thumb:
follow whatever timing is specified in the reaction's
description. For example, the opportunity attack and
the shield spell are clear about the fact that they can
interrupt their triggers. If a reaction has no timing
specified, or the timing is unclear, the reaction occurs
after its trigger finishes, as in the Ready action.

READY:
<snip>
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your
reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore
the trigger. Rem ember that you can take only one
reaction per round.

If it helps, you can think of it this way:
Once you have a reaction ability, that ability is effectively an "always-on" source of a Ready Action that you never have to declare, which also doesn't use your Action to have Readied.
There are a very rare few instances where the reaction can interrupt the trigger, but most do not, and the ones that do are 100% clear about it.
Does that help?

[Arial Black]

In previous editions, casting while threatened provoked and the OA could prevent the spell getting off. It wasn't the successful casting of a spell which provoked, but the starting of the VSM components that provoked.

Think about it; if a spell has a 1 minute casting time, why would the Mage Slayer patiently wait until the caster completed the casting and then attack?

Sure, the trigger happens before the OA. So the usual order of things: begin VSM components->complete VSM->spell duration begins, has two observable events, each of which could be the trigger: the spell duration beginning OR the spell casting (VSM components) beginning. Why would you choose the former?

We already know for a fact that 5E allows us to use the 'begin VSM components' as a legal trigger, because it is exactly this trigger that is used by counterspell.

I find it astonishing that 5E changed the concept that has existed since 1E (casting next to an armed enemy allows him to attack for free and that attack could prevent the spell casting from completing) to something that makes no conceptual sense (I hate wizards, but it's polite to let them finish their casting first!) when it's just as consistent with the rules to have the Mage Slayer use 'begin casting' as the trigger as it is to use 'spell duration begins' as the trigger.

[NNescio]

Yes.
Relentless Avenger moves as a part of the reaction.
Normally, a caster who Misty Steps away doesn't provoke from a Mage Slayer because when the attack procs he's already gone. In this particular case, the Pally could move to the caster and still get that attack, assuming he can actually get to the caster via normal movement.

No. Relentless Avenger moves as part of an OA. The reaction attack granted by Mage Slayer is not an OA.

Also, even if Mage Slayer were to work with reaction attacks in general, the trigger for Relentless Avenger is "when you hit a creature with an opportunity attack", you can't put the cart before the horse and assume retroactively that you have hit yet. Should you assume so, well, you might even still miss the attack that is contingent on you being able to move to hit the caster, at which point things becomes absurd (do you revert back to your original square if you miss, because the movement is now illegal?).

[Corran]

No. Relentless Avenger moves as part of an OA. The reaction attack granted by Mage Slayer is not an OA.

Also, even if Mage Slayer were to work with reaction attacks in general, the trigger for Relentless Avenger is "when you hit a creature with an opportunity attack", you can't put the cart before the horse and assume retroactively that you have hit yet. Should you assume so, well, you might even still miss the attack that is contingent on you being able to move to hit the caster, at which point things becomes absurd (do you revert back to your original square if you miss, because the movement is now illegal?).
Bummer.... So relentless avenger will never be cool....

[DivisibleByZero]

Technically, correct.
But you have an ability to attack if the caster moves (OA). You have an ability to move when you make that attack (relentless avenger) so as to stick with your target. You have an ability to attack when the caster casts (mage slayer).

A reasonable DM would allow those three to work in conjunction, so that you have the ability to move and attack when the caster casts a spell to move away.
That's not to say that disallowing it is unreasonable, only that allowing it would be perfectly reasonable.

[NNescio]

Technically, correct.
But you have an ability to attack if the caster moves (OA). You have an ability to move when you make that attack (relentless avenger) so as to stick with your target. You have an ability to attack when the caster casts (mage slayer).

A reasonable DM would allow those three to work in conjunction, so that you have the ability to move and attack when the caster casts a spell to move away.

You have the ability to move when you HIT with that attack. Subtle but important difference.

I do agree with the overall sentiment that this isn't particularly OP anyway and can be allowed by a generous DM (heck, I'll probably allow it), but the line of reasoning used to justify this can lead to other unintended side-effects that 'make sense' like Soul of Vengeance + Relentless Avenger, or worse, change every "when you hit" trigger to "when your make an attack" (which is why I'd make Relentless Avenger + Mage Slayer an explicit houserule instead of trying to justify it via tortuous interpretation of the RAW).


Bummer.... So relentless avenger will never be cool....

Eh, it lets you stick with a target and move with him without triggering OAs on your own, should you hit (with the OA, not with any other reaction attack). Decentish enough ability. Gets better if you combine it with Polearm Master, and you can instead choose to back away from your target when he moves into your reach (entering the reach of a creature with PA triggers OA from said creature provided he's equipped with a glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff).

It can get really ridiculous though if you DM allows the "Light, Dark, Underdark" UA and you pick the Tunnel Fighter fighting style.

[Arial Black]

Teleporting is not 'moving'.

Teleporting is stopping being here and starting being there, without moving.

Teleporting has never provoked an OA on the grounds of 'movement'. It has provoked on the grounds of 'casting in a threatened square'.

[Tanarii]

Technically, correct.
But you have an ability to attack if the caster moves (OA). You have an ability to move when you make that attack (relentless avenger) so as to stick with your target. You have an ability to attack when the caster casts (mage slayer).Mage Slayer does not provide an Opportunity Attack, it allows you to make an attack as a reaction.

Relentless Avenger doesn't allow you to move until after you have already hit the target. Even with a normal OA, it doesn't work before the attack.


A reasonable DM would allow those three to work in conjunction, so that you have the ability to move and attack when the caster casts a spell to move away.
That's not to say that disallowing it is unreasonable, only that allowing it would be perfectly reasonable.
Caveat: I make no judgement about reasonableness or unreasonableness in my comment above, only commenting on what I believe the text says. :smallwink:

One thing to consider is that allowing Relentless Avenger to work before an attack changes it considerably.

[DivisibleByZero]

One thing to consider is that allowing Relentless Avenger to work before an attack changes it considerably.

Not really. Reaction attacks are very specifically in melee range. You still have to hit the correct target. All allowing this very specific corner case does is to allow the Feat you spent an ASI on and the Feature you earned at a given level to actually work in a cool combination for this one, very specific, situation wherein a caster teleports from right next to you to somewhere else within your walking distance.

[NNescio]

One thing to consider is that allowing Relentless Avenger to work before an attack changes it considerably.


Not really. Reaction attacks are very specifically in melee range. You still have to hit the correct target. All allowing this very specific corner case does is to allow the Feat you spent an ASI on and the Feature you earned at a given level to actually work in a cool combination for this one, very specific, situation wherein a caster teleports from right next to you to somewhere else within your walking distance.

Allowing Relentless Avenger to work before an attack means you can use Relentless Avenger to move anytime you are allowed to make an OA (or reaction attack from things like Sentinel) without even needing to actually hit (or even needing to make the attack first, as with this interpretation you can delay the attack until you've moved to a more advantageous position). Pretty significant buff, and not just for this corner case. Take Soul of Vengeance + Relentless Avenger, for example. Or just being able to flat out circle around any enemy who attempts to move away from you, blocking him in the process if there's a nearby chokepoint like a door. Usually you need to actually hit with that OA (not certain, especially against high AC) before you are even allowed to use RA to move.

[Tanarii]

Actually overall I think DivisibleByZero is generally right, since there are a limited number of ways you can provoke an Opportunity Attack without moving out of the spot, which is when move then attack becomes important as opposed to attack then move.

OTOH it would make a difference between always getting to move, as opposed to only doing it on a hit.

[Corran]

Eh, it lets you stick with a target and move with him without triggering OAs on your own, should you hit (with the OA, not with any other reaction attack). Decentish enough ability. Gets better if you combine it with Polearm Master, and you can instead choose to back away from your target when he moves into your reach (entering the reach of a creature with PA triggers OA from said creature provided he's equipped with a glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff).
Aha, finally! Some use out it.


It can get really ridiculous though if you DM allows the "Light, Dark, Underdark" UA and you pick the Tunnel Fighter fighting style.
Yeah, there is something about this fighting style that seems to unbalance things.
The most fun application must have been that thread talking about that vengeance paladin who could keep moving a long as there were enough pigions stratigically placed and released (to provoke OA's) at the right moment. Lol

[Desamir]

A reaction happens after the trigger unless timing is specified otherwise.

I don't believe this is actually a rule. Reactions created by the Ready Action do work this way, but reactions in general do not.


Like DBZ says, if an ability interrupts and potentially prevents something from happening, it says so, e.g. Cutting Words, Shield, Counterspell. Mage Slayer doesn't say that because it doesn't.

Absorb Elements breaks this pattern. There is no language in the spell that suggests it takes effect before damage is dealt, but that's exactly how it works (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/07/does-absorb-elements-give-you-resistance-the-triggering-attack/).

TL;DR: There is no unified timing rule for reactions.

[DivisibleByZero]

I don't believe this is actually a rule. Reactions created by the Ready Action do work this way, but reactions in general do not.

Read the DMG. Or just read the part from the DMG that was posted a little bit earlier in the thread.
Either one will work fine.

[mephnick]

I don't believe this is actually a rule. Reactions created by the Ready Action do work this way, but reactions in general do not..

It is. He quoted it word for word from the DMG above.

*pg. 252

[Phoenix042]

Yes.
Relentless Avenger moves as a part of the reaction.

No. Relentless avenger triggers when you hit with an opportunity attack, plus mage slayer doesn't even GIVE YOU an opportunity attack, it gives you a reaction - melee attack, which you have no chance of hitting with against a target that just teleported away.

This combo doesn't work; you need to actually hit someone with an opportunity attack in order to get the movement from relentless avenger.

Believe me, if there was another way to trigger it, that thread about the faster-than-light tunnel-fighting avenger paladin would have found it.

[Misterwhisper]

So essentially it is another screw you to people who can not cast spells because: Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell,and various other spells get to go through to interrupt what other people are doing, however if you have Mage slayer, Sentinel or if they readied an action against casting a spell, or those things that might help you hold people in place, forget it if they can cast spells because they get to ignore you and misty step, d-door, teleport away and ignore the feat you took.

[Desamir]

Read the DMG. Or just read the part from the DMG that was posted a little bit earlier in the thread.
Either one will work fine.


It is. He quoted it word for word from the DMG above.

*pg. 252

Oops. That's what I get for skipping posts.

[Dalebert]

Absorb Elements breaks this pattern. There is no language in the spell that suggests it takes effect before damage is dealt...

How about the very first sentence of the spell?

"The spell captures some of the incoming energy, lessening it effect on you and storing it for your next melee attack."

[djreynolds]

So essentially it is another screw you to people who can not cast spells because: Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell,and various other spells get to go through to interrupt what other people are doing, however if you have Mage slayer, Sentinel or if they readied an action against casting a spell, or those things that might help you hold people in place, forget it if they can cast spells because they get to ignore you and misty step, d-door, teleport away and ignore the feat you took.


So as long as your assassin wins initiative, he still attacks first. Now a mage can use the shield spell to block your attack as it is a reaction.

But if you forced a mage to spam a spell slot on a reaction spell and then on a movement like misty step and D-Door... that's not bad.

And remember that the 2nd part of the feat in regards to concentration does not require you to be within 5ft, only the 1st and 3rd parts do. So if you can sneak up on a wizard, he has disadvantage to maintain concentration, even if you are shooting from a distance.

Also more than likely your assassin would also have advantage to hit the mage as you would be attacking from the shadows or were previously hidden.

So even if the mage somehow beats you, the mage has used 1 shield spell and one misty step just to evade you.

[NNescio]

So as long as your assassin wins initiative, he still attacks first. Now a mage can use the shield spell to block your attack as it is a reaction.

But if you forced a mage to spam a spell slot on a reaction spell and then on a movement like misty step and D-Door... that's not bad.

And remember that the 2nd part of the feat in regards to concentration does not require you to be within 5ft, only the 1st and 3rd parts do. So if you can sneak up on a wizard, he has disadvantage to maintain concentration, even if you are shooting from a distance.

Also more than likely your assassin would also have advantage to hit the mage as you would be attacking from the shadows or were previously hidden.

So even if the mage somehow beats you, the mage has used 1 shield spell and one misty step just to evade you.

Also, if the Assassin has managed to Surprise the mage (that's part of the whole shtick of being one, especially if you utilize stealth) and beat his initiative (Assassins tend to pick Alert), said mage doesn't get to Shield, because you can't take reactions when you're surprised (at least not until the end of your first turn [the surprise 'round'], which you spend doing nothing because you're surprised.)

[djreynolds]

That is right, you lose your reaction if surprised. Nice catch.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

So essentially it is another screw you to people who can not cast spells because: Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell,and various other spells get to go through to interrupt what other people are doing, however if you have Mage slayer, Sentinel or if they readied an action against casting a spell, or those things that might help you hold people in place, forget it if they can cast spells because they get to ignore you and misty step, d-door, teleport away and ignore the feat you took.

Attacks of opportunity explicitly take place before the event that triggered them resolves. So, Sentinel, which triggers on attacks of opportunity, gets to interrupt what people do.

Unfortunately, Mageslayer isn't technically an attack of opportunity.

[Misterwhisper]

Attacks of opportunity explicitly take place before the event that triggered them resolves. So, Sentinel, which triggers on attacks of opportunity, gets to interrupt what people do.

Unfortunately, Mageslayer isn't technically an attack of opportunity.

Not if they are casting a spell to teleport in some way: D-Door, misty step, teleport of various kinds.

They do not "use" your movement, so sentinel does not activate.

[Dalebert]

"The attack interrupts the provoking creature’s movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach."

This is the exact verbiage for opportunity attacks specifically, so presumably the attack occurs at about 4 ft if your reach is 5 ft or 9ft if your reach is 10, and so on. Folks using a grid may simplify this to the creature doesn't make it out of the square before the attack occurs and leave it at that such that Sentinel effectively causes it to not move at all.