Crusade against Pharasma

[Eternull]

Hello all I am a Dungeon Master running a custom Pathfinder campaign for a group of friends and I plan on taking account of the journey they have while they attempt to slay the god Pharasma.

There are a few things people should know before they start looking into our sessions.
1) They are all competitive gamer so I made it a 2 group competitive campaign were I run one group and a friend runs another.
2) Because of this there will be times where one group will try and kill another member of the other group.
3) We plan this adventure to carry people to level 15
4) This will be one of the first games either of us have DM'ed.

[Inevitability]

That's very interesting. What is your question?

[Eternull]

That's very interesting. What is your question?

I have no questions, from how I understood the forum structure this area can also be used to facilitate conversation on d20 based RPG's. so I plan on using this to talk with people and get their opinion on the campaign and possibly get answers to questions if they arise. But also to document the campaign for my players to access if they miss a session, or forgot what happened.

[Inevitability]

I have no questions, from how I understood the forum structure this area can also be used to facilitate conversation on d20 based RPG's. so I plan on using this to talk with people and get their opinion on the campaign and possibly get answers to questions if they arise. But also to document the campaign for my players to access if they miss a session, or forgot what happened.

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

[Manyasone]

Tiny question

Pharasma
LADY OF GRAVES
Goddess of birth, death, fate, and prophecy
Alignment Neutral
Domains Death, Healing, Knowledge, Repose, Water
She does not really strike me as a goddess to crusade against.
What sort of game are you running, considering this is your first?

[Calthropstu]

Tiny question

She does not really strike me as a goddess to crusade against.
What sort of game are you running, considering this is your first?

I could see a group of people trying to kill her. Defy their fates, eliminate death etc... Of course, pharasma, being a true PF god, is nigh impossible to kill. A group of adventurers simply can't do it.

I direct you to the Pathfinder stats of a fallen true god: Lucifer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-unique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc/), who was ousted by his former leiutenant, Asmodeous. It took a massive uprising of ALL OF HELL to do the job, AND THEY STILL FAILED TO KILL HIM.

Short of releasing Rovagug, Pharasma isn't going anywhere.

[Geddy2112]

I could see a group of people trying to kill her. Defy their fates, eliminate death etc... Of course, pharasma, being a true PF god, is nigh impossible to kill. A group of adventurers simply can't do it.

I direct you to the Pathfinder stats of a fallen true god: Lucifer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-unique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc/), who was ousted by his former leiutenant, Asmodeous. It took a massive uprising of ALL OF HELL to do the job, AND THEY STILL FAILED TO KILL HIM.

Short of releasing Rovagug, Pharasma isn't going anywhere.

This would actually be an interesting turn of events-the party is all crusading to release Rovagug.

Although at that point, Pharasma is not the only one on the chopping block-the party is fighting against damn near everything else in existence. Lucifer and Asmodeaus will be best friends again the day the rough beast is let out of the box.

[Coidzor]

Tiny question

She does not really strike me as a goddess to crusade against.
What sort of game are you running, considering this is your first?

Well, apparently she's the final arbiter of morality in the setting, so killing and replacing her would allow one to redefine what is [Good] and what is [Evil], I suppose.

Someone who wants to become immortal but isn't a Wizard, Druid, or able to steal the recipe for Sun Orchid Elixir would naturally want to cut down on her ability to inspire pogroms and bigotry against peaceful undead or pay adventurers to kill them when her clergy isn't able to just go and do it themselves.

[Psyren]

The main thing you as the DM will have to figure out is whether this will even be possible. If you decide it should be, then you need to figure out how. Will it be by combat? Battle of wits? Gather holy relics for a ritual? Some combination, or something else?

If you decide it shouldn't, then you need to figure out what your players will be accomplishing instead. Maybe they can't supplant Pharasma but they end up impressing her. Maybe they steal some of her divine essence for themselves. Maybe by the end of it, one or more of their number are dead, and they have the choice between damning their friends and toppling Pharasma, or leaving her in place and saving them.

Point being there's a lot of ways you can go with this, but it all starts with that main question at the beginning - can it be done at all?

[Particle_Man]

Are the two groups both trying to kill Pharasma, or is one group trying to stop the other group?

[Eternull]

Are the two groups both trying to kill Pharasma, or is one group trying to stop the other group?

One group will be trying to stop the other.

[Eternull]

The main thing you as the DM will have to figure out is whether this will even be possible. If you decide it should be, then you need to figure out how. Will it be by combat? Battle of wits? Gather holy relics for a ritual? Some combination, or something else?

If you decide it shouldn't, then you need to figure out what your players will be accomplishing instead. Maybe they can't supplant Pharasma but they end up impressing her. Maybe they steal some of her divine essence for themselves. Maybe by the end of it, one or more of their number are dead, and they have the choice between damning their friends and toppling Pharasma, or leaving her in place and saving them.

Point being there's a lot of ways you can go with this, but it all starts with that main question at the beginning - can it be done at all?

I plan on allowing her to be killed as I'm going to give them some relic that will destroy her, but if more than a couple of the party die, I plan on her offering the party leaving her alone, for the revival of their party.

[Calthropstu]

PF gods are unstatted for a reason. They specifically can't be killed short of a colossal calamity.

Sounds like your group is saying "Well we wanna kill a god" and you're catering to them despite the fact RAW, it cannot be done.

In short: bad GMing at its finest.

However, I HAVE always wanted to do the whole counteroperative game culminating in the two groups meeting to serve as the final boss fight.

[Coidzor]

PF gods are unstatted for a reason. They specifically can't be killed short of a colossal calamity.

Let's be direct and honest about it. The actual reason is that Jason Bulmahn doesn't like the idea of gods being able to be killed.

It's entirely a developer bias/idiosyncrasy, and while it is something that differentiates PF from the D&D tradition that it is descended from, it's not something to take as a sacred cow and tell others that they cannot do this thing when everyone is on board with it.


Sounds like your group is saying "Well we wanna kill a god" and you're catering to them despite the fact RAW, it cannot be done.

In short: bad GMing at its finest.

Slavishly clinging to a game developer's idea of how you should think about the game instead of having the game that you and your group want to play is far worse GMing than running a game that everyone agrees would be fun.

[Calthropstu]

Let's be direct and honest about it. The actual reason is that Jason Bulmahn doesn't like the idea of gods being able to be killed.

It's entirely a developer bias/idiosyncrasy, and while it is something that differentiates PF from the D&D tradition that it is descended from, it's not something to take as a sacred cow and tell others that they cannot do this thing when everyone is on board with it.



Slavishly clinging to a game developer's idea of how you should think about the game instead of having the game that you and your group want to play is far worse GMing than running a game that everyone agrees would be fun.

To be honest, the whole D&D tradition of statting gods was lame. Having gods as quantifiable removes the essence of what a god is supposed to be. Hence it is one of many reasons I have switched to pathfinder.

And looking at the stats of even the weakest demigods, NO 15 LEVEL PARTY CAN KILL THAT. In short, Op is suspending believability to give his players something they want and they would never be able to have.

Looking at the resources Pharasma has available to her, especially with her being allies to evil and good gods alike, killing her would be nigh impossible. Adding a maguffin artifact?
The moment it is touched, the party is probably facing the mantis "god".
Sorry, but there is no way you are killing Pharasma with a 15th level party, even if it were possible to kill her at all.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

To be honest, the whole D&D tradition of statting gods was lame. Having gods as quantifiable removes the essence of what a god is supposed to be. Hence it is one of many reasons I have switched to pathfinder.

And looking at the stats of even the weakest demigods, NO 15 LEVEL PARTY CAN KILL THAT. In short, Op is suspending believability to give his players something they want and they would never be able to have.

Looking at the resources Pharasma has available to her, especially with her being allies to evil and good gods alike, killing her would be nigh impossible. Adding a maguffin artifact?
The moment it is touched, the party is probably facing the mantis "god".
Sorry, but there is no way you are killing Pharasma with a 15th level party, even if it were possible to kill her at all.

The clause "in any game I run" is missing from the end there. Or I must assume it is since you're stating facts about a game that explicitly gives the players and DM permission to change whatever they need to in the course of making it more fun.

You sound like I wouldn't have fun at your table.

[Calthropstu]

The clause "in any game I run" is missing from the end there. Or I must assume it is since you're stating facts about a game that explicitly gives the players and DM permission to change whatever they need to in the course of making it more fun.

You sound like I wouldn't have fun at your table.

Eh, fair enough I suppose. The gm could decide "Pharasma can be killed by sticking a twig in this hole."

Looking through the rulebooks as well as all the fluff material regarding the setting of Golarion, it can't be done. The reason I am calling BAD GMing is because this requires tossing aside MASSIVE portions of the rules and pretending they don't exist.

These PCs are not the first to try to overthrow or kill gods. Only twice in all of the history of Golarion has there been success according to what is written: Asmodeous' overthrow of Lucifer and the death of the god of humanity.

Titans: Failed. Rovagug: Failed. Proteans: Failed. Oh, but here comes a group of mid level adventurers...
Not believable.

[Coidzor]

Oh, but here comes a group of mid level adventurers...


Level 15 is actually high level, not mid-level.

[Calthropstu]

Level 15 is actually high level, not mid-level.

Arguable. Half the classes don't even have 8th lvl spells, and even then you're pretty much asking to be slaughtered by a balor/pit fiend... and the martials at that level are little more than a speed bump to major physical monsters. I'd say upper middle at best. High level for me is 16-20. Mid level covers 6-15. Few adventures get to high level play.

[Azoth]

Eh, fair enough I suppose. The gm could decide "Pharasma can be killed by sticking a twig in this hole."

Looking through the rulebooks as well as all the fluff material regarding the setting of Golarion, it can't be done. The reason I am calling BAD GMing is because this requires tossing aside MASSIVE portions of the rules and pretending they don't exist.

These PCs are not the first to try to overthrow or kill gods. Only twice in all of the history of Golarion has there been success according to what is written: Asmodeous' overthrow of Lucifer and the death of the god of humanity.

Titans: Failed. Rovagug: Failed. Proteans: Failed. Oh, but here comes a group of mid level adventurers...
Not believable.

Didn't two gods die during the Earthfall? The Azlanti god of magic and his lover. So hey, nice to know Aboleths can succeed where everyone else fails. All fear a CR 7 creature for they killed two gods with one stone!

[Calthropstu]

Didn't two gods die during the Starfall? The Atlantic god of magic and his lover. So hey, nice to know Aboleths can succeed where everyone else fails. All fear a CR 7 creature for they killed two gods with one stone!

We all know that aboleths can have character levels and templates piled on. Earthfall (not starfall) was a world threatening calamity. All true gods that have died or been deposed were killed/deposed by either other gods, massive uprisings of entire planes/species, or world shattering events. Essentially, the only way to kill Pharasma is to threaten world destruction and force her to sacrifice herself to stop it.

Now there are ways to make this more believable. "The PCs get their hands on the artifact that originally caused Earthfall" would be a plausible plot device. As has been mentioned, as well, if the PCs manage to threaten the release of Rovagug, Pharasma would also be on the chopping block.

A maguffin taking control of The Mantis God (The primary demigod assassin that can't attack true gods) and removing its "can't kill true gods" clause might be plausible. But a "This maguffin artifact kills Pharasma because yay magiffin" is not plausible in the slightest.

Now I CAN see Pharasma being inconveinienced by the actions of the party, possibly damaging a portion of her portfolio enough that one of the PCs is able to stimmy enough divine essence and become a demigod.

But I don't see her dying short of stopping a world shattering calamity such as earthfall, or stopping the final release of Rovagug.

[Coidzor]

Didn't two gods die during the Earthfall? The Azlanti god of magic and his lover. So hey, nice to know Aboleths can succeed where everyone else fails. All fear a CR 7 creature for they killed two gods with one stone!

Nah, see, Jason Bulmahn approved of that plot point, so it's all good.

[Calthropstu]

Nah, see, Jason Bulmahn approved of that plot point, so it's all good.

It's not like Forgotten Realms where gods rise and get killed left and right. My sticking point is that the death of gods in pathfinder is universally an earth/plane shattering event. And here we have a GM saying "Let's go kill the goddess of fate, and here's a maguffin to do it!"
If it were forgotten realms or Greyhawk, fine. But in a setting where the fluff is god killing requires world ending doomsday devices? Lame.

[Honest Tiefling]

It's not like Forgotten Realms where gods rise and get killed left and right. My sticking point is that the death of gods in pathfinder is universally an earth/plane shattering event. And here we have a GM saying "Let's go kill the goddess of fate, and here's a maguffin to do it!"
If it were forgotten realms or Greyhawk, fine. But in a setting where the fluff is god killing requires world ending doomsday devices? Lame.

Well, to be fair, few of those godly deaths actually stuck. I think Myrkul is still dead in 5e, but most everyone else got better. And Mystra dies as often as kittens sneeze.

I think it is also fair to keep intended themes in mind when using a published setting, but if they want to treat Golarion as a Whack-A-God setting, why care if they are having wrongbadfun? I agree that Golarion's setting (as far as I know) would encourage it to be a world-shaking/shattering event, but I got the impression that was the intention. Who WOULDN'T want a world ending doomday device to play with?

[Calthropstu]

Well, to be fair, few of those godly deaths actually stuck. I think Myrkul is still dead in 5e, but most everyone else got better. And Mystra dies as often as kittens sneeze.

I think it is also fair to keep intended themes in mind when using a published setting, but if they want to treat Golarion as a Whack-A-God setting, why care if they are having wrongbadfun? I agree that Golarion's setting (as far as I know) would encourage it to be a world-shaking/shattering event, but I got the impression that was the intention. Who WOULDN'T want a world ending doomday device to play with?

See, the players getting a doomsday device requiring divine intervention? Fine with me, I'd play that. Players having "The Sword Of +10 Pharasma Slaying?" Not so much.

[neriractor]

See, the players getting a doomsday device requiring divine intervention? Fine with me, I'd play that. Players having "The Sword Of +10 Pharasma Slaying?" Not so much.

And who Said it was going to be like that? All the OP said was that they were getting an artifact, the fluff of which was not directly referred to, why make an argument assuming the position directly opposite from yours?

[Arutema]

The only way I could see the plot working is if the players are allied with and empowered by one of Pharasma's divine rivals. Zyphus and Urgathoa both have their reasons to want to usurp the portfolio of death from Pharasma.

Given that statted demigods are CR 30, and Pharasma is a level of power above them, this feels like it'd me a more appropriate story idea for a high level mythic campaign though.

[Calthropstu]

The only way I could see the plot working is if the players are allied with and empowered by one of Pharasma's divine rivals. Zyphus and Urgathoa both have their reasons to want to usurp the portfolio of death from Pharasma.

Given that statted demigods are CR 30, and Pharasma is a level of power above them, this feels like it'd me a more appropriate story idea for a high level mythic campaign though.

Which is exactly what I am saying. I'd love to see the 15th level non-mythic capable of taking one of the statted demigods on. Odds are one of those would be sent after the PCs when it became clear the threat they posed was viable.

[Psyren]

PF gods are unstatted for a reason. They specifically can't be killed short of a colossal calamity.

Sounds like your group is saying "Well we wanna kill a god" and you're catering to them despite the fact RAW, it cannot be done.

In short: bad GMing at its finest.

This is not only rude and unhelpful, it's a non sequitur. Killing the gods requires neither that they be statted nor that there be a RAW method of doing so; all you actually need is plot. Furthermore, the only real way to be a "bad GM" is for your players (and yourself) to not have fun.

The OP has established that he wants this to be possible, so the best way to help is to bring up things their group should consider. For starters, Pharasma represents Death itself - so the philosophical question of whether Death can even die at all becomes relevant. On top of that, she can see the future, so it would be hard if not impossible to catch her off guard. And even if you resolve all of that, there are the consequences of her throne being vacant. Do the PCs fill it? Some other god like Zyphus or Urgathoa? No being at all, and if so, what happens to souls on their way to the afterlife?

The consequences of this could ultimately be minor, or they could unravel the cosmos, or anything in between, but they should be plotted out ahead of time (even if in just broad strokes.)

[Pex]

There is a module where the PCs are meant to stop some Drow causing another Earthfall with Kyonin as ground zero, and the PCs are 15th level for the climactic ending. My (almost) defunct :smallfrown: Pathfinder group is finishing it up now. Our next session is probably the last, for the campaign and the group. :smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown: We're looking at D20 to continue.

Perhaps that could be adapted to suit the campaign.

[Eternull]

This is not only rude and unhelpful, it's a non sequitur. Killing the gods requires neither that they be statted nor that there be a RAW method of doing so; all you actually need is plot. Furthermore, the only real way to be a "bad GM" is for your players (and yourself) to not have fun.

The OP has established that he wants this to be possible, so the best way to help is to bring up things their group should consider. For starters, Pharasma represents Death itself - so the philosophical question of whether Death can even die at all becomes relevant. On top of that, she can see the future, so it would be hard if not impossible to catch her off guard. And even if you resolve all of that, there are the consequences of her throne being vacant. Do the PCs fill it? Some other god like Zyphus or Urgathoa? No being at all, and if so, what happens to souls on their way to the afterlife?

The consequences of this could ultimately be minor, or they could unravel the cosmos, or anything in between, but they should be plotted out ahead of time (even if in just broad strokes.)

First, I want to thank everyone of the help and opinions being shared in this post, but I want to address the questions on the possibility/likely-hood of my campaign. One, I never said the artifact was going to be a sword with +10 Pharasma Slaying as one eloquently put, and two, I never said that they would be slaying Pharasma alone, in fact they are going to be serving a god who wishes to take her seat of power. So, again thank you again for the conversation. And to answer the quote, I plan on having a god take Pharasma place, and siphon the souls of the dead to a legion of necromancers who will make an army of the undead, and flesh golems. And the final 5 levels will be spent dismantling the army, and ascending to take Pharasma place. So they will slay Pharasma around 15, then around 20 slay the other god. And I will say a doomsday device will be in play.

[Psyren]

There are two parts you haven't answered yet (though you don't necessarily have to.) The first is what Pharasma thinks of all this; she can not only see the future, but can do so better than any other god in the setting, and her own death would fall pretty squarely in her portfolio too. You could simply handwave this by having {random other god} cloud her sight somehow. Speaking personally that approach would be unsatisfying, but your players may not mind.

The second is your players' own motivations. It's pretty obvious why this other god wants to supplant Pharry - to use her portfolio and essence to fuel the aforementioned necromantic army. What's less clear is why the players would help him do this. Presumably they won't know about the other god's motivations since he becomes the True Final Boss (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueFinalBoss) after Pharry is taken down. Is he deceiving them somehow? Do they have legitimate beef with Pharasma that starts all this? Is it something broader for the entire party, or do they each have personal grudges, and if the latter, who is designing those, them or you?

[Eternull]

There are two parts you haven't answered yet (though you don't necessarily have to.) The first is what Pharasma thinks of all this; she can not only see the future, but can do so better than any other god in the setting, and her own death would fall pretty squarely in her portfolio too. You could simply handwave this by having {random other god} cloud her sight somehow. Speaking personally that approach would be unsatisfying, but your players may not mind.

The second is your players' own motivations. It's pretty obvious why this other god wants to supplant Pharry - to use her portfolio and essence to fuel the aforementioned necromantic army. What's less clear is why the players would help him do this. Presumably they won't know about the other god's motivations since he becomes the after Pharry is taken down. Is he deceiving them somehow? Do they have legitimate beef with Pharasma that starts all this? Is it something broader for the entire party, or do they each have personal grudges, and if the latter, who is designing those, them or you?

Thank you for bringing these plot holes up and I do not mind answering them, first I plan on her not being able to deal with the party directly because the gods that are in on the attempt to kill her are already locked in combat with her, so she sends visions to a faction of paladins, who then will conscript the other party, and that will lead them to defending Pharasma and explain why Pharasma doesn't kill them herself, because if she did she would lose focus for long enough for the other gods to serve a deathblow, and for the explanation as to why the party helps, is because they are not directly aware that they are going to take down Pharasma from the start, the herald of the god will simply say that they are going to slay a creature of extreme power, and thus they must gather x items and x artifact to stand a chance, and only when they enter her domain to they see who they are supposed to kill, and because we don't have any paladins in our groups (or other highly religious classes) I plan on them making a check to see if they can determine who this god is, and if it fails then they will kill her/attempt to, and if they succeed then Pharasma will detect it and try to reason with them, thus allowing for the other gods to strike a lethal blow, and if they do kill her and return they will walk in on the herald summoning hundreds of undead and the corpses of women children and elderly being formed to flesh golems, and then the herald will start to use the NPC's in their party to create undead (depending they will be able to revive them). And this will spark the final conflict where the good guys and bad guys "work together" by this they have their own methods but they will meet at the end to defeat the Herald and a lesser image of the god, where they will defeat him and this will cause the god to be weakened, they will then be teleported back to Pharasma's old domain and be given the option of take the place of Pharasma themselves or to resurrect her.

[NOhara24]

Hello all I am a Dungeon Master running a custom Pathfinder campaign for a group of friends and I plan on taking account of the journey they have while they attempt to slay the god Pharasma.

There are a few things people should know before they start looking into our sessions.
1) They are all competitive gamer so I made it a 2 group competitive campaign were I run one group and a friend runs another.
2) Because of this there will be times where one group will try and kill another member of the other group.
3) We plan this adventure to carry people to level 15
4) This will be one of the first games either of us have DM'ed.

Leave it to the playground to discuss the lore and if the campaign is even possible versus the obvious issue here:

1) An exceptionally complicated PvP campaign
2) Two co-DMs with limited experience

OP, I strongly suggest that you DON'T DO THIS. Even the most experienced and best DMs will refuse to run a PvP scenario due to the Out-of-character drama it may cause. Ultimately the biggest issue is that there are two DMs - the DM is supposed to be the "be-all-end-all." but now that there's a duality you have to come to a consensus every time a large event occurs. This will cause an issue because I'd imagine that each DM will not want his group to lose of course. PLEASE, for your sanity and everyone else's sanity, just run separate campaigns.

[Eternull]

Leave it to the playground to discuss the lore and if the campaign is even possible versus the obvious issue here:

1) An exceptionally complicated PvP campaign
2) Two co-DMs with limited experience

OP, I strongly suggest that you DON'T DO THIS. Even the most experienced and best DMs will refuse to run a PvP scenario due to the Out-of-character drama it may cause. Ultimately the biggest issue is that there are two DMs - the DM is supposed to be the "be-all-end-all." but now that there's a duality you have to come to a consensus every time a large event occurs. This will cause an issue because I'd imagine that each DM will not want his group to lose of course. PLEASE, for your sanity and everyone else's sanity, just run separate campaigns.

I appreciate the concern but, all the players in the group have agreed that they want this, and that they are fine if their characters die. Second we have designated a God GM, this being one the when they say that x event happens it happens, and both of the DM's have addressed that they want to run the game like this, so while I appreciate the warning we will be going though with it no matter what.

[Psyren]

I... totally missed that there were two parties and two DMs. Yeah, this whole thing is a bad idea.