Would this fix for moon druid balance?

[jleonardwv]

How about a moon druid counting as 2 levels higher on the shape changing table? You lose a bit of power but gain versatility. Flight at level 6 is after the Wizard gets Fly and some races like Aaracokra have it at first. Then at ninth or sixth you'd get CR 1/3 your level.

[Dudewithknives]

How about a moon druid counting as 2 levels higher on the shape changing table? You lose a bit of power but gain versatility. Flight at level 6 is after the Wizard gets Fly and some races like Aaracokra have it at first. Then at ninth or sixth you'd get CR 1/3 your level.

There is nothing wrong with the power level of Moon Druids, it is more a balance issue that Land Druids need a boost.

[Spellbreaker26]

There is nothing wrong with the power level of Moon Druids, it is more a balance issue that Land Druids need a boost.

That isn't true at all.

Moon Druids are excessively durable at very low levels, weaker than Land Druids most of the time, and at level 20 springboard back to overpowered.

Just making it so that you can only use wild form once per encounter might fix it for both, though.

[SharkForce]

That isn't true at all.

Moon Druids are excessively durable at very low levels, weaker than Land Druids most of the time, and at level 20 springboard back to overpowered.

Just making it so that you can only use wild form once per encounter might fix it for both, though.

ignoring the level 2-4 window (which closes quickly because you gain levels so quickly), the only real problem left is at level 20. apart from that, it basically gives them cantrip-level damage, and a bit of HP to help compensate for being in melee range more often while they deal their cantrip-level damage.

this is easily solved by giving them the same capstone as a land druid; unlimited use of the basic wild shape ability, instead of their supercharged moon druid wild shape. if you want, you can tweak the low level moon druid as well, but generally, it doesn't need fixing for the most part.

[busterswd]

The problem with the Moon Druid is that the class's power balance shifts so drastically between its class features as they progress. Full casting progression with the Druid's fairly robust spell list is a huge asset. They really needed to make it a more wildshape focused half-caster.

They also needed to go a little less with simplicity and just rebalance the numbers: CR 1/2 forms from 2-3, CR 1 from 4-5. Would've made for a much more stable progression.

[Strill]

There is nothing wrong with the power level of Moon Druids, it is more a balance issue that Land Druids need a boost.

Nonsense. If Land Druids are underpowered then Clerics are underpowered too. The only major differences between them balancewise are their subclass abilities, and the fact that Clerics get Channel Divinity while Druids get Natural Recovery.

[mephnick]

Moon Druids are really unimpressive in actual play after their low level power spike. Like ok, you have lots of HP, so what? You can't cast spells while shifted and the actual forms are very limited in their abilities. Land Druids are better simply because they focus on the Druid's strongest feature, full spell-casting. People just look at the constant temp HP refreshing and forget that "not dying" is only part of the game.

[skaddix]

Moon Druids are OP at low levels and if you plan to do an Epic Campaign starting at 20 or close to it.

Beyond that its fine.

[Strill]

Moon Druids are really unimpressive in actual play after their low level power spike. Like ok, you have lots of HP, so what? You can't cast spells while shifted and the actual forms are very limited in their abilities. Land Druids are better simply because they focus on the Druid's strongest feature, full spell-casting. People just look at the constant temp HP refreshing and forget that "not dying" is only part of the game.
What games are you playing in? Ones where the DM only has 4 combats per long rest? If you're actually following the adventuring day guidelines, that extra HP goes a long way to helping your party keep their resources up, so that the Druid can get to the difficult fights with lots of powerful spells remaining.

[GPS]

The problem with the Moon Druid is that the class's power balance shifts so drastically between its class features as they progress. Full casting progression with the Druid's fairly robust spell list is a huge asset. They really needed to make it a more wildshape focused half-caster.

They also needed to go a little less with simplicity and just rebalance the numbers: CR 1/2 forms from 2-3, CR 1 from 4-5. Would've made for a much more stable progression.

Honestly, there's not much need for this sort of balance. The difference between CR 1/2 and CR 1 beast is negligible in comparison to the power of the rest of the party members. Beasts have a weird power curve. The wait between levels 3 and 4 is basically negligible in the long run as well. A moon druid has horrible AC for a reason, wildshaping is their build.


What games are you playing in? Ones where the DM only has 4 combats per long rest? If you're actually following the adventuring day guidelines, that extra HP goes a long way to helping your party keep their resources up, so that the Druid can get to the difficult fights with lots of powerful spells remaining.

Honestly, I didn't know any group actually followed those guidelines. More than 4 combats per long rest is a bit high, kinda impressed you guys manage to pull it off. To each group their own I guess.

[busterswd]

Honestly, there's not much need for this sort of balance. The difference between CR 1/2 and CR 1 beast is negligible in comparison to the power of the rest of the party members. Beasts have a weird power curve.
Not really. There's a significant gap between the black bear and brown bear forms, and a HUGE gap between any other possible character.

Brown bear is worth 68 HP *per short rest* on top of 20 damage if both hits land.

A Fighter with 16 str/16 con is going to have 22 HP at level 2, and 31 at level 3, total. He'll be hitting for about 9.5 damage if he lands a hit (with a greatsword). It gets worse if you compare it to spell casters, who have even less resources at these levels (and then on top of this, the Druid is a full caster once he gets knocked out of bear).

Black bear is a far more reasonable 38 HP per short rest; it's still a nice chunk of HP that still outshines the fighter, but it's way more reasonable.

There's a reason people have noticed this problem, because it's not a negligible difference. It is that ridiculous, and challenging a party with a Moon Druid at 2 and 3 is vastly different from challenging one without one.


The wait between levels 3 and 4 is basically negligible in the long run as well. A moon druid has horrible AC for a reason, wildshaping is their build.

Also not really true. 900 XP to get to level 3, but another 1800 to get to level 4. That's a really good chunk of adventuring, literally double the amount of time; easily 2-3 sessions of having your other classes be completely outshined. And there's still a decent sized gap between a level 4 fighter and a level 4 Moon Druid, it's just not quite as ridiculous. Level 5 is where they kind of reach parity, at least in melee.




Moon Druids are really unimpressive in actual play after their low level power spike. Like ok, you have lots of HP, so what? You can't cast spells while shifted and the actual forms are very limited in their abilities. Land Druids are better simply because they focus on the Druid's strongest feature, full spell-casting. People just look at the constant temp HP refreshing and forget that "not dying" is only part of the game.

Wildshape loses a lot of power offensively, but it's still a bonus action shift that gives you a bag of durability and utility. It's a mini Contingency --> Polymorph that you can use at will. You lose the utility of the extra Land Druid spells, but the Druid spell list is already really robust; there's a ton of strong options that will be occupying your concentration, and you can solve just about any problem in the game without the bonus spells.

You become a primary caster after about level 7 or so (with a couple of spikes, like at 10/11) with a really, really useful trick that will save your spell slots. About to be surrounded by enemies? Shift into an Owl, fly away to a safe area, continue casting. Need to restrain an enemy? Giant constrictor snake. Need to climb something? Spider form. Want to go with your rogue on stealth runs? Pass without Trace, shift into a rat, hide in his pouch. Morph into an angry bear or elk if he's discovered.

[Ryuu Hayato]

The problem with Moon Druid is wildshape on a bonus action. He can transform and act in the same turn. Want to transform? Ok, you'll lost your action using it. Want refresh your temp hp? Lost your entire turn doing it. This way discourage the infinite HP mechanics, and lost a turn made their DPR slowdown.

[Tetrasodium]

Not really. There's a significant gap between the black bear and brown bear forms, and a HUGE gap between any other possible character.

Brown bear is worth 68 HP *per short rest* on top of 20 damage if both hits land.

A Fighter with 16 str/16 con is going to have 22 HP at level 2, and 31 at level 3, total. He'll be hitting for about 9.5 damage if he lands a hit (with a greatsword). It gets worse if you compare it to spell casters, who have even less resources at these levels (and then on top of this, the Druid is a full caster once he gets knocked out of bear).

Black bear is a far more reasonable 38 HP per short rest; it's still a nice chunk of HP that still outshines the fighter, but it's way more reasonable.

There's a reason people have noticed this problem, because it's not a negligible difference. It is that ridiculous, and challenging a party with a Moon Druid at 2 and 3 is vastly different from challenging one without one.



Also not really true. 900 XP to get to level 3, but another 1800 to get to level 4. That's a really good chunk of adventuring, literally double the amount of time; easily 2-3 sessions of having your other classes be completely outshined. And there's still a decent sized gap between a level 4 fighter and a level 4 Moon Druid, it's just not quite as ridiculous. Level 5 is where they kind of reach parity, at least in melee.





Wildshape loses a lot of power offensively, but it's still a bonus action shift that gives you a bag of durability and utility. It's a mini Contingency --> Polymorph that you can use at will. You lose the utility of the extra Land Druid spells, but the Druid spell list is already really robust; there's a ton of strong options that will be occupying your concentration, and you can solve just about any problem in the game without the bonus spells.

You become a primary caster after about level 7 or so (with a couple of spikes, like at 10/11) with a really, really useful trick that will save your spell slots. About to be surrounded by enemies? Shift into an Owl, fly away to a safe area, continue casting. Need to restrain an enemy? Giant constrictor snake. Need to climb something? Spider form. Want to go with your rogue on stealth runs? Pass without Trace, shift into a rat, hide in his pouch.

a brown bear has 11 ac. a fighter at level 1 has 14-18 ac depending on starting choices... presumably by level 6 when moon druids can jump to an ac12 42hp polar/cave bear, a fighter with at least 12 con will have 42 hp & better that 12 ac by far.

Others are right that moon druids trade casting potential for suitability & the capability to damage sponge enemy attacks into irrelevance. The downside is that with natural spell so far off, beast forms drop to meh fast after getting them & trail off even worse by 12 or so.

[NNescio]

a brown bear has 11 ac. a fighter at level 1 has 14-18 ac depending on starting choices.

Brown Bear can take those hits since it's effectively temp HP, and once he gets knocked out of both forms you still have a full caster remaining with all his spells.

Wildshape does sort of peter out over time (spiking at Elemental Wild Shape, then spiking for Beast Spells) , but between L2-L3 Moon Druids are the most OP class in the game (barring UA and 3rd party sources). Vumans with bonus action attack feats do even the field a bit, sorta.

I personally think a Moon Druid's Wild Shape (or at least the Beast forms) should be made weaker during the earlier levels (CR 1/2 at L2-L3, maybe), but scale better later on, in particular the smaller sized forms. At higher levels the only (non-elemental) viable combat forms tend to be Huge or bigger, making them unsuitable for most dungeons and indoor environments. Perhaps some sort of scaling bonus to attack and AC when assuming forms of lower CR than your maximum?
(Or 5 ft corridor dungeons, but that's kinda being a jerk DM.)

[busterswd]

a brown bear has 11 ac. a fighter at level 1 has 14-18 ac depending on starting choices... presumably by level 6 when moon druids can jump to an ac12 42hp polar/cave bear, a fighter with at least 12 con will have 42 hp & better that 12 ac by far.

If you'll notice, I'm specifically discussing a nerf at levels 2 and 3. I'm not debating that level 6 forms reach parity (actually, I'd say the fighter has an edge, big bag of HP or not), and a fighter in plate mail can certainly be deceptively durable.

But at those levels, a druid is putting out double to triple the amount of damage a fighter is in combat, on top of his defensive stats, which he regains *every short rest*, meaning he's expected to get 68 HP three times in an adventuring day. There's no comparison in staying power. He's got the extra utility of his spell slots, which he can simply use to heal himself in combat, or just give the rest of the party an extra 30+ HP of out of combat healing with his level 1 slots alone.

[Tetrasodium]

Brown Bear can take those hits since it's effectively temp HP, and once he gets knocked out of both forms you still have a full caster remaining with all his spells.

Wildshape does sort of peter out over time (spiking at Elemental Wild Shape, then spiking for Beast Spells) , but between L2-L3 Moon Druids are the most OP class in the game (barring UA and 3rd party sources). Vumans with bonus action attack feats do even the field a bit, sorta.

(Or 5 ft corridor dungeons, but that's kinda being a jerk DM.)


Yes the brown bear can; but last I checked there were 17-18 levels after that 2-3 range you notice & from experience wildshape falls down so badly between forms that it's better to specialize for casting instead & use wildshape when it fits.

[Logosloki]

If you'll notice, I'm specifically discussing a nerf at levels 2 and 3. I'm not debating that level 6 forms reach parity (actually, I'd say the fighter has an edge, big bag of HP or not), and a fighter in plate mail can certainly be deceptively durable.

But at those levels, a druid is putting out double to triple the amount of damage a fighter is in combat, on top of his defensive stats, which he regains *every short rest*, meaning he's expected to get 68 HP three times in an adventuring day. There's no comparison in staying power. He's got the extra utility of his spell slots, which he can simply use to heal himself in combat, or just give the rest of the party an extra 30+ HP of out of combat healing with his level 1 slots alone.

Then the fix is even simpler. Start at level 5. If you are using prepackaged encounters there may be guides withinn to make the encounters more challenging. If you are making your own encounters then make them with a level 5 party on mind.

[busterswd]

Then the fix is even simpler. Start at level 5. If you are using prepackaged encounters there may be guides withinn to make the encounters more challenging. If you are making your own encounters then make them with a level 5 party on mind.

I actually don't have a problem with starting at higher levels. Level 1 and 2 can be incredibly deadly, and while 3 generally opens up a lot of options, classes don't usually come into their own until 5.

Nonetheless, "avoid level 1-4 in all games with Moon Druids" smacks of being a lazy balancing solution to me.


I personally think a Moon Druid's Wild Shape (or at least the Beast forms) should be made weaker during the earlier levels (CR 1/2 at L2-L3, maybe), but scale better later on, in particular the smaller sized forms. At higher levels the only (non-elemental) viable combat forms tend to be Huge or bigger, making them unsuitable for most dungeons and indoor environments. Perhaps some sort of scaling bonus to attack and AC when assuming forms of lower CR than your maximum?
(Or 5 ft corridor dungeons, but that's kinda being a jerk DM.)

Yeah, I agree, scaling needs a complete overhaul. Druid is the one class where the variations got really weird because of 5th edition's simplicity paradigm.

[Tetrasodium]

I actually don't have a problem with starting at higher levels. Level 1 and 2 can be incredibly deadly, and while 3 generally opens up a lot of options, classes don't usually come into their own until 5.

Nonetheless, "avoid level 1-4 in all games with Moon Druids" smacks of being a lazy balancing solution to me.

Trying to "rebalance" it is just a failure with encounter design too.

Take a level 3 fighter with chainmail, a shield, & a very reasonable 14 con. 18ac & 28 hp vrs the brown bear's 11ac & 34hp. a party of 3 level 3's against 4 zombies with their +3 to hit 1d6+1 is an easy encounter.. medium is 6. Those zombies are going to hit the bear on anything better than an 8 while hitting the fighter still in starting gear will need a 15 or better.
The bear should be soaking up those hits; but it's going to be shredded fast on account of those cr 1/4 zombies having better than 50% chance of hitting it. By 6 when the polar/cave bear comes along with its massive 42hp/12ac, that >50% chance will be even higher in an encounter geared for those 3 level 6 characters.

[SharkForce]

Trying to "rebalance" it is just a failure with encounter design too.

Take a level 3 fighter with chainmail, a shield, & a very reasonable 14 con. 18ac & 28 hp vrs the brown bear's 11ac & 34hp. a party of 3 level 3's against 4 zombies with their +3 to hit 1d6+1 is an easy encounter.. medium is 6. Those zombies are going to hit the bear on anything better than an 8 while hitting the fighter still in starting gear will need a 15 or better.
The bear should be soaking up those hits; but it's going to be shredded fast on account of those cr 1/4 zombies having better than 50% chance of hitting it. By 6 when the polar/cave bear comes along with its massive 42hp/12ac, that >50% chance will be even higher in an encounter geared for those 3 level 6 characters.

sure. but the druid can "die" twice in bear form and still not have lost as many resources as the fighter who gets hit only 2 or 3 times, because one short rest later the druid is back to having two bear forms (on top of the druid's own HP and AC) available while the fighter only has a bit of HP from second wind to recover the lost HP.

not to mention that the druid in bear form is also enjoying higher damage most likely (*especially* compared to a fighter using a shield).

at level 3, the moon druid will probably outshine the fighter in every way possible. it's tolerable only because the early levels go by pretty quickly. it probably should be fixed, provided the solution is not too much work to implement. redesigning the whole thing from scratch is probably not a good solution, but tweaking the progression so brown bear isn't available right from level 2 is pretty simple, so why not do it?

[blurneko]

I personally limit Moon Druids to CR 1/2 at levels 2-3 and unlock CR 1 at level 4. I found it balances much better at this stage of play.
I have not played much higher levels but if Moon Druids drop off, it seems to be an easy fix by creating new beasts or upgrading existing ones.

[SharkForce]

I personally limit Moon Druids to CR 1/2 at levels 2-3 and unlock CR 1 at level 4. I found it balances much better at this stage of play.
I have not played much higher levels but if Moon Druids drop off, it seems to be an easy fix by creating new beasts or upgrading existing ones.

more beast options would certainly represent a power increase, but i doubt it would make moon druids scale all that much better. nor should it, really. but anyways, the main thing is that the CR simply never gets to nearly as ridiculous a point as it does in those early levels, where PCs are all going to be relatively low CR if you worked it out (especially if you only give them the portion of their resources you expect them to have in a handful of fights at most) and the druid is actually getting a relatively high CR form. at later levels, a CR 6 beast is certainly not nothing, nor is a CR 4 elemental, but they've fallen well behind in power when compared to a level 18 character.

which, as i hinted at, is how it should be.

simply put, a druid is a full spellcaster. if you make them also a full melee, then you've basically made dedicated full melee characters obsolete. that was one of the mistakes 3.x made, and it's one of the mistakes 5e didn't make.

if you want to make a shapeshifting warrior, that's a great idea, tons of people like the idea, and i think it could be totally awesome... but it shouldn't have druid as the core class. with full spellcasting and the druid's rather nice spell list, there is no room to add anywhere near as much as would be needed to make a good warrior without drastically exceeding the power budget available.

[JellyPooga]

Moon Druids are really only "broken" if you're playing a campaign in which combat occupies the majority of encounters and resting is not an issue. Combat isn't the only aspect of play and as far as non-combat encounters go, the Moon Druid has no advantage over any other Druid and a distinct lack compared to the expanded spell list and class features of Land Druids. Yes the Moon Druid is good in combat but he gets nothing from his archetype to help outside of it (while he gets access to more powerful forms, he doesn't get faster access to the utilities of swim and fly speeds).

Further, as good as his forms are, he only gets two per short rest. Blow both on one fight and you'd better hope you don't face another before you get a chance to rest. Blew both Wild Shapes in combat and need a utility form? Sorry bub, go rest and we'll talk.

At the end of the day, the Moon Druid gets a significant boost to an ability that isn't the strongest feature of the Druid chassis. Yeah, it lets you dabble in melee (even dominate at a certain few levels) but when your main job is control, getting stuck into a brawl makes you worse at what you're "supposed" to be doing.

[Theodoxus]

From my experiences DMing moon druids, they're walking bags of HP that quickly get burned down and then they're full casters stuck in the middle of melee.

When my goblins see a guy with an axe or big sword in chainmail, walking next to a big bear... they go after the bear - it's scarier (and easier to hit, but they don't know that at first).

Every player I've run as a moonie has asked to swap out. Everything you want to do, tactically, you can still accomplish as a land druid, and you're generally a bit more cautious, because you're thinking like a full caster, not a fighter in a bear suit.

[Malifice]

Moon Druids are really unimpressive in actual play after their low level power spike. Like ok, you have lots of HP, so what? You can't cast spells while shifted and the actual forms are very limited in their abilities. Land Druids are better simply because they focus on the Druid's strongest feature, full spell-casting. People just look at the constant temp HP refreshing and forget that "not dying" is only part of the game.

Dip two levels of paladin. Now you get to both heal and smite in bear form.

Ancients fits the fluff perfectly.

[Saggo]

simply put, a druid is a full spellcaster. if you make them also a full melee, then you've basically made dedicated full melee characters obsolete. that was one of the mistakes 3.x made, and it's one of the mistakes 5e didn't make.

if you want to make a shapeshifting warrior, that's a great idea, tons of people like the idea, and i think it could be totally awesome... but it shouldn't have druid as the core class. with full spellcasting and the druid's rather nice spell list, there is no room to add anywhere near as much as would be needed to make a good warrior without drastically exceeding the power budget available.

Homebrewing a combat shapeshifter is a fine idea, but Moon Druid is the only official one currently. And there is room in the power budget for more offense. Being a full caster and the spell list means little when it's locked out, a hefty price some like the Warlock isn't paying. Adding sustained offense at the expense of slots easily keeps it within reason.

Fortunately for your position, Wizards has little apparent interest in Wild Shape given the only UA tweaks where what forms you could pick while Warlock is teased Hexblade and Sorcerer teased Stone.

[SharkForce]

Homebrewing a combat shapeshifter is a fine idea, but Moon Druid is the only official one currently. And there is room in the power budget for more offense. Being a full caster and the spell list means little when it's locked out, a hefty price some like the Warlock isn't paying. Adding sustained offense at the expense of slots easily keeps it within reason.

Fortunately for your position, Wizards has little apparent interest in Wild Shape given the only UA tweaks where what forms you could pick while Warlock is teased Hexblade and Sorcerer teased Stone.

at any time, a moon druid can easily stop being a bear (or a scorpion, or an eagle, or whatever) and be a druid again. not to mention they can cast a concentration spell and then turn into a bear, eagle, scorpion, etc, and benefit fully from the shapeshift. a moon druid who can summon a bunch of animal minions and then turn into a giant bear to add as much damage as a fighter is simply not going to be balanced. no matter how you slice it, a moon druid is still a full spellcaster.

if you make druid shapeshift as good as being a warrior, you have someone who can be a full warrior and then at a moment's notice be a full spellcaster as well (and can potentially enjoy most of the benefits of both). there is simply no way to do that and claim that you haven't made warriors obsolete. (or other spellcasters, for that matter, who enjoy similar spellcasting power but are generally deficient in other areas that warriors tend to excel at).

if you want a shapeshifting warrior, i hope you get it. heck, i would like to see one too. but it cannot be the moon druid, because the moon druid is a druid, not a warrior, and we already know what happens when you let a druid transform into a warrior that is as good as an actual warrior, thanks to 3.x D&D. instead, the shapeshifting warrior should be an actual warrior, not a full spellcaster.

[busterswd]

at any time, a moon druid can easily stop being a bear (or a scorpion, or an eagle, or whatever) and be a druid again. not to mention they can cast a concentration spell and then turn into a bear, eagle, scorpion, etc, and benefit fully from the shapeshift. a moon druid who can summon a bunch of animal minions and then turn into a giant bear to add as much damage as a fighter is simply not going to be balanced. no matter how you slice it, a moon druid is still a full spellcaster.

if you make druid shapeshift as good as being a warrior, you have someone who can be a full warrior and then at a moment's notice be a full spellcaster as well (and can potentially enjoy most of the benefits of both). there is simply no way to do that and claim that you haven't made warriors obsolete. (or other spellcasters, for that matter, who enjoy similar spellcasting power but are generally deficient in other areas that warriors tend to excel at).

if you want a shapeshifting warrior, i hope you get it. heck, i would like to see one too. but it cannot be the moon druid, because the moon druid is a druid, not a warrior, and we already know what happens when you let a druid transform into a warrior that is as good as an actual warrior, thanks to 3.x D&D. instead, the shapeshifting warrior should be an actual warrior, not a full spellcaster.

Pretty much in full agreement with this. A mid level moon druid using his resources to the fullest isn't shifting into a bear, trying to hit targets with a poorly scaling attack, and burning spell slots on wild shape healing when his piffle AC fails him. He's using his spells to lock down or control the battlefield, then shifting if need be.

They really needed to have some way of having the moon druid burn his magic on wildshape (or at least limit their casting), and there's dozens of ways they could have done so.

[Saggo]

at any time, a moon druid can easily stop being a bear (or a scorpion, or an eagle, or whatever) and be a druid again. not to mention they can cast a concentration spell and then turn into a bear, eagle, scorpion, etc, and benefit fully from the shapeshift. a moon druid who can summon a bunch of animal minions and then turn into a giant bear to add as much damage as a fighter is simply not going to be balanced. no matter how you slice it, a moon druid is still a full spellcaster.

if you make druid shapeshift as good as being a warrior, you have someone who can be a full warrior and then at a moment's notice be a full spellcaster as well (and can potentially enjoy most of the benefits of both). there is simply no way to do that and claim that you haven't made warriors obsolete. (or other spellcasters, for that matter, who enjoy similar spellcasting power but are generally deficient in other areas that warriors tend to excel at).

if you want a shapeshifting warrior, i hope you get it. heck, i would like to see one too. but it cannot be the moon druid, because the moon druid is a druid, not a warrior, and we already know what happens when you let a druid transform into a warrior that is as good as an actual warrior, thanks to 3.x D&D. instead, the shapeshifting warrior should be an actual warrior, not a full spellcaster.

I didn't say as good as a warrior, a nebulous concept as it is, I said there's room for more offense. More specifically, there's room for more damage.

Avoiding the pit falls of 3.X is a valid concern, but we already have full spellcasters approaching melee damage that Fighter and Barbarian builds are accustomed to, easily exceeding Wild Shape's in the process, and still casting at a moments notice without giving up the features that let them do that. Like I argued the last time we had this go around, Wild Shape in its current state is self-limiting, given the 2 charge limit and lack of casting before 18. If any Druid that's Wild Shaped wants to cast anything, including reapplying Concentration since you just waded into melee with below average AC, they're dropping shape and are left with at most 1 charge. It's not a flippant choice, a Druid is carefully rationing their time wading into melee with casting spells, while a Sorcerer hinging on SCAG cantrips and a Warlock optimized for Blade is far, far more flexible in their ability to cast. The ablative HP is a great defensive bonus, but it's also fueling your Wild Shape. A Fiendlock that loses his ablative HP, while obviously lesser at it, can just go get more without having lost his weapon.

Giving Moon Druid more damage isn't going to obsolete martials. There's room for improvement even if Wizards isn't interested in pursuing it.

[Strill]

Avoiding the pit falls of 3.X is a valid concern, but we already have full spellcasters approaching melee damage that Fighter and Barbarian builds are accustomed to, easily exceeding Wild Shape's in the process, and still casting at a moments notice without giving up the features that let them do that.

And which classes are you referring to that can make a Fighter or Barbarian obsolete?

[Saggo]

And which classes are you referring to that can make a Fighter or Barbarian obsolete?

Where did I say obsolete?

[Strill]

Where did I say obsolete?
If they do the same damage as a fighter, but also have full spellcasting, then the Fighter doesn't have much of a niche left.

[Saggo]

If they do the same damage as a fighter, but also have full spellcasting, then the Fighter doesn't have much of a niche left.

You're reading into it, didn't say that either.

[KorvinStarmast]

There is nothing wrong with the power level of Moon Druids, it is more a balance issue that Land Druids need a boost. That's a nice and refreshing perspective.

I personally think a Moon Druid's Wild Shape (or at least the Beast forms) should be made weaker during the earlier levels (CR 1/2 at L2-L3, maybe), but scale better later on, ) I do not. This game isn't about solo play. It's about team/party play. It was "balanced" with teams, not solo, as the paradigm.

So early on a Moon Druid can help the party survive, a few levels later Moon Druid is being a supportive spell caster, changes shape for neat times/things, while another party member shines, and as noted above, gets a neat spike with elemental and another with spell casing in wild shaped form. All the while, there Are Other Party Members doing neat stuff too.

This Isn't A Competition between PC's, as designed. Our next campaign has room for a druid, and my brother is probably going to play a halfling moon druid because going from hobbit to large beast amuses him.

Me too.

[Spellbreaker26]

You're reading into it, didn't say that either.



Avoiding the pit falls of 3.X is a valid concern, but we already have full spellcasters approaching melee damage that Fighter and Barbarian builds are accustomed to, easily exceeding Wild Shape's in the process, and still casting at a moments notice without giving up the features that let them do that..

We do not have full spellcasters approaching melee damage that fighters and barbarians can output. The closest, a bladesigner or valour bard might approach a barbarian's melee damage, but are not going to have the resources to max out their physical attack stat without slacking on their casting stat. Sure, they can pick up shilleagh, but that requires additional investment in either the form of magical secrets (for the bard) or a feat, both of which are fairly valuable in their own right. But let's assume that the bladesinger or valour bard has the max damage, 1d8+5 and twice, the same as a barbarian with a one-handed sword and shield.

Except that not only will that barbarian be getting 1d8+7 thanks to the range bonus, he will also have the opportunity to reckless attack. So even if the bladesinger or valour bard dump their spellcasting, they can't hope to catch up with a barbarian let alone a fighter, who may also have 1d8+7 thanks to Duelist, and if he does not will still have three or four attacks.

[Strill]

You're reading into it, didn't say that either.


we already have full spellcasters approaching melee damage that Fighter and Barbarian builds are accustomed to

Fine. They're not "matching" the Fighter's damage. They're "approaching" it. That minor distinction makes no difference to me. Which spellcasters were you referring to?

[Saggo]

Fine. They're not "matching" the Fighter's damage. They're "approaching" it. That minor distinction makes no difference to me. Which spellcasters were you referring to?

I really don't care what difference it makes to you, not with that vitriolic response. Read it again if you want an answer.

[busterswd]

That's a nice and refreshing perspective. I do not. This game isn't about solo play. It's about team/party play. It was "balanced" with teams, not solo, as the paradigm.

So early on a Moon Druid can help the party survive, a few levels later Moon Druid is being a supportive spell caster, changes shape for neat times/things, while another party member shines, and as noted above, gets a neat spike with elemental and another with spell casing in wild shaped form. All the while, there Are Other Party Members doing neat stuff too.

This Isn't A Competition between PC's, as designed. Our next campaign has room for a druid, and my brother is probably going to play a halfling moon druid because going from hobbit to large beast amuses him.

Me too.

Moon Druids are my favorite class, and in dozens of games I've played with or as them, they'll operate just fine as a cog in a larger team, especially if it's a friendly game.

As a DM, though, encounter balance changes quite a bit if I know I've got a level 2 Moon Druid (a little less so at level 3 and 4, but still something to keep in mind). It's the same mindset behind the revered/hated tier lists from 3.5, in that while it's a cooperative storytelling game, when somebody is singlehandedly murdering all the encounters, while another one is spamming his 1d6 Shocking Grasp, it can lead to potential overshadowing. It's tough to challenge the bag of HP/multiattack without basically ignoring the other party members.

[Spellbreaker26]

It's tough to challenge the bag of HP/multiattack without basically ignoring the other party members.

Same thing with Bear Barbarian.

[SharkForce]

I really don't care what difference it makes to you, not with that vitriolic response. Read it again if you want an answer.

if you can't be bothered to produce any evidence to support your claim, i can't be bothered to give your claim any weight. you're currently making a baseless claim, and the way you're dancing around on technicalities instead of addressing that claim is emphasizing just how baseless it is at the moment.


Same thing with Bear Barbarian.

2/day as compared to 2/short rest. not exactly equivalent.

also, quite frankly, at level 2 not that different from not-bear barbarian (i wouldn't say there are zero sources of non-weapon damage at level 2, but it's a lot less common than it is at higher levels).

[Saggo]

if you can't be bothered to produce any evidence to support your claim, i can't be bothered to give your claim any weight. you're currently making a baseless claim, and the way you're dancing around on technicalities instead of addressing that claim is emphasizing just how baseless it is at the moment.

Seriously? I know I was disagreeing with you, but this is what you respond with? Your druid arguments were relying on community knowledge just as much as mine were. I didn't feel like treating words being put in my mouth any more than it was worth.

But sure, we can be done.

[Strill]

I really don't care what difference it makes to you, not with that vitriolic response. Read it again if you want an answer.

If you want to read vitriol into my responses, then that's your prerogative, and there's nothing I can do to stop it. I was simply stating my opinion that a full-caster who comes close to, or matches a Fighter's damage, renders the Fighter obsolete, since damage is all the fighter has.

I've re-read your posts and you have yet to name a full caster that is able to approach the damage of a fighter.

[SharkForce]

Seriously? I know I was disagreeing with you, but this is what you respond with? Your druid arguments were relying on community knowledge just as much as mine were. I didn't feel like treating words being put in my mouth any more than it was worth.

But sure, we can be done.

yes, seriously. you're saying you totally have something, but every time someone asks you about it, you're all "nope, not gonna tell you, you have to say pretty please".

so... yes, seriously, until you actually provide any evidence at all to support your claims, i'm going to continue to treat you like your claims are completely unsupported by evidence. if you dislike your claims being treated like they're unsupported, then support them. you're dodging the question every time someone asks you about your example. you are acting like someone who has no evidence at all. provide some evidence, and i'll revise that. until then, this is basically like me announcing myself to be a world champion at competitive D&D and then you asking for any evidence that it's true, and me responding "what, you don't even know about who won the world D&D championships? well then i totally don't even need to prove anything because if you knew anything, you'd know about that". would you believe me if i made that claim and had that sort of response every time someone asked me for proof? because i sure as hell wouldn't.

(note: i am not a world champion in D&D. also, i don't think there is any such thing. it's just an example, don't read too much into it).

[Saggo]

yes, seriously. you're saying you totally have something, but every time someone asks you about it, you're all "nope, not gonna tell you, you have to say pretty please".

so... yes, seriously, until you actually provide any evidence at all to support your claims, i'm going to continue to treat you like your claims are completely unsupported by evidence. if you dislike your claims being treated like they're unsupported, then support them. you're dodging the question every time someone asks you about your example. you are acting like someone who has no evidence at all. provide some evidence, and i'll revise that. until then, this is basically like me announcing myself to be a world champion at competitive D&D and then you asking for any evidence that it's true, and me responding "what, you don't even know about who won the world D&D championships? well then i totally don't even need to prove anything because if you knew anything, you'd know about that". would you believe me if i made that claim and had that sort of response every time someone asked me for proof? because i sure as hell wouldn't.

(note: i am not a world champion in D&D. also, i don't think there is any such thing. it's just an example, don't read too much into it).

The hyperbole is unwarranted. One asked, and didn't seem to care that they were putting words in my mouth in the process. Otherwise there was only one counter-example.

Like I said, we both were using the same amount of support, basing on community knowledge. Deride me for it if you want, nothing I did was inherently worse than anyone else, you made it pointless to continue.

[Tetrasodium]

If you want to read vitriol into my responses, then that's your prerogative, and there's nothing I can do to stop it. I was simply stating my opinion that a full-caster who comes close to, or matches a Fighter's damage, renders the Fighter obsolete, since damage is all the fighter has.

I've re-read your posts and you have yet to name a full caster that is able to approach the damage of a fighter.


You seem to have a really bad & pretty strange misprint in your phb, mine gives them all armor/shields/simple weapons/martialweapons/ an extra feat at both 6 & 14/d10 hit dice/a fighting style/action surge/indomitable/a choice from 3 martial archtypes that each have a host of nifty things. I'd suggest returning that misprint where you bought it or contact wotc (perhaps here? (https://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2305/)).

In the mean time, the information your phb seems to be lacking from chapter 3 can be found in the player's basic rules (http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/playerdndbasicrules_v0.2.pdf), Fighter appears to start on page 23.


as to the "nu-uh prove it" uninformed complaints regarding the claim I believe someone made that full casters were able to "approach" the damage of a fighter

F i r e B o l t
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You hurl a mote of fire at a creature or object within
range. Make a ranged spell attack against the
target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 fire damage. A
flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn't being
worn or carried.
This spell’s damage increases by 1d10 when you reach
5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).[

C h i l l T o u c h
Necromancy cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 round
You create a ghostly, skeletal hand in the space of a
creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack
against the creature to assail it with the chill of the
grave. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 necrotic damage,
and it can’t regain hit points until the start o f your next
turn. Until then, the hand clings to the target.
If you hit an undead target, it also has disadvantage on
attack rolls against you until the end of your next turn.
This spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach
5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).


R a y o f F r o s t
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
A frigid beam o f blue-white light streaks toward a
creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack
against the target. On a hit, it takes 1d8 cold damage,
and its speed is reduced by 10 feet until the start of
your next turn.
The spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach
5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

S h o c k i n g G r a s p
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Lightning springs from your hand to deliver a shock to
a creature you try to touch. Make a melee spell attack
against the target. You have advantage on the attack roll
if the target is wearing arm or made of metal. On a hit,
the target takes 1d8 lightning damage, and it can’t take
reactions until the start of its next turn.
The spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach
5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

Note what happens at 5/11/17, fighters get second/third/fourth at 5/11/20. While the fighter can certainly benefit from magic weapons and strength bonus to damage, he/she cannot use concentration to maintain a damage spell while casting those cantrips... or they could just.... you know... cast a really nasty damage spell (there are plenty of those). The very idea that a full caster might have difficulty surpassing, let alone "approaching" the damage of a fighter outside of things like an antimagic field is ludicrous to the point of absurdity. anyone demanding proof of "a" full caster class being able to do that deserves little more than stern mocking at best.

[Strill]

You seem to have a really bad & pretty strange misprint in your phb, mine gives them all armor/shields/simple weapons/martialweapons/ an extra feat at both 6 & 14/d10 hit dice/a fighting style/indomitable/a choice from 3 martial archtypes that each have a host of nifty things. I'd suggest returning that misprint where you bought it or contact wotc (perhaps here? (https://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2305/)).


Armor/shield proficiencies: aka +1 AC over Clerics or Druids
Weapon proficiencies: aka damage
Extra feats: aka more damage
Fighting style: aka damage
Martial archetypes: aka damage or worse spellcasting
Indomitable: I'll give you that one.



as to the "nu-uh prove it" uninformed complaints regarding the claim I believe someone made that full casters were able to "approach" the damage of a fighter

F i r e B o l t
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You hurl a mote of fire at a creature or object within
range. Make a ranged spell attack against the
target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 fire damage. A
flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn't being
worn or carried.
This spell’s damage increases by 1d10 when you reach
5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).[

C h i l l T o u c h
Necromancy cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 round
You create a ghostly, skeletal hand in the space of a
creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack
against the creature to assail it with the chill of the
grave. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 necrotic damage,
and it can’t regain hit points until the start o f your next
turn. Until then, the hand clings to the target.
If you hit an undead target, it also has disadvantage on
attack rolls against you until the end of your next turn.
This spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach
5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).


R a y o f F r o s t
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
A frigid beam o f blue-white light streaks toward a
creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack
against the target. On a hit, it takes 1d8 cold damage,
and its speed is reduced by 10 feet until the start of
your next turn.
The spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach
5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

S h o c k i n g G r a s p
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Lightning springs from your hand to deliver a shock to
a creature you try to touch. Make a melee spell attack
against the target. You have advantage on the attack roll
if the target is wearing arm or made of metal. On a hit,
the target takes 1d8 lightning damage, and it can’t take
reactions until the start of its next turn.
The spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach
5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

Note what happens at 5/11/17, fighters get second/third/fourth at 5/11/20. While the fighter can certainly benefit from magic weapons and strength bonus to damage, he/she cannot use concentration to maintain a damage spell while casting those cantrips... or they could just.... you know... cast a really nasty damage spell (there are plenty of those). The very idea that a full caster might have difficulty surpassing, let alone "approaching" the damage of a fighter outside of things like an antimagic field is ludicrous to the point of absurdity. anyone demanding proof of "a" full caster class being able to do that deserves little more than stern mocking at best.


Firebolt level 17: 4d10 = 22
Fighter level 17 (unoptimized): [2d6 Greatsword + 5 Strength + 1.33 Greatweapon Fighting Style] x [3 Extra Attack] = 40

And that's on the low end, not including any magic weapons, or archetype abilities, like Advantage from Trip Attack, or the chance to proc Greatweapon Master or the chance to trigger a Sentinel or Mage Slayer attack, which can easily boost the Fighter's damage by 50% without expending any resources.

So since you mention how much stronger casters can get when expending spell slots, let's compare the two: A caster using their most powerful spell slot, and a Fighter using their most powerful attacks.


Disintegrate, 9th-level slot: 19d6+40 = 106.5 @ 50% chance to hit = 53.25
Fighter level 17 (optimized): [2d6 Greatsword + 5 Strength + 1.33 Greatweapon Fighting Style + 3 magic weapon] x [3 Extra Attack + 3 Action Surge + 1 Greatweapon Master + 1 Sentinel] + 6d12 (Superiority Dice) = 169.64 @ 50% chance to hit + 15% chance to hit ( magic weapon ) + 22.75% chance to hit ( Advantage ) = 148.86

Oh hey look, the caster doesn't come close, and I didn't even include -5/+10.

[SharkForce]

Armor/shield proficiencies: aka +1 AC over Clerics or Druids
Weapon proficiencies: aka damage
Extra feats: aka more damage
Fighting style: aka damage
Martial archetypes: aka damage or worse spellcasting
Indomitable: I'll give you that one.





Firebolt level 17: 4d10 = 22
Fighter level 17 (unoptimized): [2d6 Greatsword + 5 Strength + 1.33 Greatweapon Fighting Style] x [3 Extra Attack] = 40

And that's on the low end, not including any magic weapons, or archetype abilities, like Advantage from Trip Attack, or the chance to proc Greatweapon Master or the chance to trigger a Sentinel or Mage Slayer attack, which can easily boost the Fighter's damage by 50% without expending any resources.

So since you mention how much stronger casters can get when expending spell slots, let's compare the two: A caster using their most powerful spell slot, and a Fighter using their most powerful attacks.


Disintegrate, 9th-level slot: 19d6+40 = 106.5 @ 50% chance to hit = 53.25
Fighter level 17 (optimized): [2d6 Greatsword + 5 Strength + 1.33 Greatweapon Fighting Style + 3 magic weapon] x [3 Extra Attack + 3 Action Surge + 1 Greatweapon Master + 1 Sentinel] + 6d12 (Superiority Dice) = 169.64 @ 50% chance to hit + 15% chance to hit ( magic weapon ) + 22.75% chance to hit ( Advantage ) = 148.86

Oh hey look, the caster doesn't come close, and I didn't even include -5/+10.

you forgot to account for the fighter's crit chance ;)

[busterswd]

you forgot to account for the fighter's crit chance ;)

Or the part where the stipulation was that a caster does that in melee.

[Tetrasodium]

you forgot to account for the fighter's crit chance ;)

Among other things, He also deliberately omitted the stated fact that the wizard in the example can maintain a damage spell with concentration or cast any number of damage spells to far outdamage the cantrip while maintaining that same concentration spell.

[SharkForce]

Among other things, He also deliberately omitted the stated fact that the wizard in the example can maintain a damage spell with concentration or cast any number of damage spells to far outdamage the cantrip while maintaining that same concentration spell.

such as? i think the highest damage per round comes from animate objects, which is nice and all, but then just about any source of AoE damage comes in and there goes your impressive damage. even single-target damage can fairly quickly take down individual objects, which at least is *kinda* like being a warrior (in that it is taking focus away from the back line), but it won't take long for your damage to be dropped to a point where you are no longer remotely competing with a warrior for damage dealt.

not to mention that animated weapon deals nonmagical damage, while it is highly likely a fighter is dealing magic weapon damage by the time you're looking at animate object being even remotely sustainable as opposed to a rare and valuable resource (actually, level 5 slots never truly become a trivial expense, so animate objects being sustainable is a bit debatable anyways...)

[Tetrasodium]

such as? i think the highest damage per round comes from animate objects, which is nice and all, but then just about any source of AoE damage comes in and there goes your impressive damage. even single-target damage can fairly quickly take down individual objects, which at least is *kinda* like being a warrior (in that it is taking focus away from the back line), but it won't take long for your damage to be dropped to a point where you are no longer remotely competing with a warrior for damage dealt.

not to mention that animated weapon deals nonmagical damage, while it is highly likely a fighter is dealing magic weapon damage by the time you're looking at animate object being even remotely sustainable as opposed to a rare and valuable resource (actually, level 5 slots never truly become a trivial expense, so animate objects being sustainable is a bit debatable anyways...)


W i z a r d S p e l l s

C a n t r i p s (0 L e v e l )
Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Chill Touch
Dancing Lights
Fire Bolt
Friends
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp
True Strike

1s t L e v e l
Alarm
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Chromatic Orb
Color Spray
Comprehend Languages
Detect Magic
Disguise Self
Expeditious Retreat
False Life
Feather Fall
Find Familiar
Fog Cloud
Grease
Identify
Illusory Script
Jump
Longstrider
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Protection from
Evil and Good
Ray of Sickness
Shield
Silent Image
Sleep
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
Tenser’s Floating Disk
Thunderwave
Unseen Servant
Witch Bolt

2 n d L e v e l
Alter Self
Arcane Lock
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Cloud of Daggers
Continual Flame
Crown of Madness
Darkness
Darkvision
Detect Thoughts
Enlarge/Reduce
Flaming Sphere
Gentle Repose
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Melf’s Acid Arrow
Mirror Image

Misty Step
Nystul’s Magic Aura
Phantasmal Force
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope Trick
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Shatter
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Web

3 r d L e v e l
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Blink
Clairvoyance
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Fear
Feign Death
Fireball
Fly
Gaseous Form
Glyph o f Warding
Haste
Hypnotic Pattern
Leomund’s Tiny Hut
Lightning Bolt
Magic Circle
Major Image
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Protection from Energy
Remove Curse
Sending
Sleet Storm
Slow
Stinking Cloud
Tongues
Vampiric Touch
Water Breathing

4 t h L e v e l
Arcane Eye
Banishment
Blight
Confusion
Conjure Minor Elementals
Control Water
Dimension Door
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Greater Invisibility
Hallucinatory Terrain
Ice Storm
Leomund’s Secret Chest


Locate Creature
Mordenkainen’s
Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen’s
Private Sanctum
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Polymorph
Stone Shape
Stoneskin
Wall of Fire

5t h L e v e l
Animate Objects
Bigby’s Hand
CloudkilI
Cone of Cold
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Creation
Dominate Person
Dream
Geas
Hold Monster
Legend Lore
Mislead
Modify Memory
Passwall
Planar Binding
Rary’s Telepathic Bond
Scrying
Seeming
Telekinesis
Teleportation Circle
Wall of Force
Wall of Stone

6 t h L e v e l
Arcane Gate
Chain Lightning
Circle of Death
Contingency
Create Undead
Disintegrate
Drawmij’s Instant
Summons
Eyebite
Flesh to Stone
Globe of Invulnerability
Guards and Wards
Magic Jar
Mass Suggestion
Move Earth
Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere
Otto’s Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion

Sunbeam
True Seeing
Wall of Ice

7 t h L e v e l
Delayed Blast Fireball
Etherealness
Finger of Death
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's
Magnificent Mansion
Mordenkainen’s Sword
Plane Shift
Prismatic Spray
Project Image
Reverse Gravity
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol
Teleport

8 t h L e v e l
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Dominate Monster
Feeblemind
Incendiary Cloud
Maze
Mind Blank
Power Word Stun
Sunburst
Telepathy
Trap the Soul

9 t h L e v e l
Astral Projection
Foresight
Gate
Imprisonment
Meteor Swarm
Power Word Kill
Prismatic Wall
Shapechange
Time Stop
True Polymorph
Weird
Wish

I'm sure you can find plenty of concentration damage spells in there. All I needed to do is show that it is trvial for a full caster to "approach" thedamage output of a fighter. Hell, a single fireball vrs a bunch of targets within a 20 foot radius of a point chosen for fireball will wildly outdamage a fighter to an absurd degree; end of discussion, I'm done.

[SharkForce]

W i z a r d S p e l l s

C a n t r i p s (0 L e v e l )
Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Chill Touch
Dancing Lights
Fire Bolt
Friends
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp
True Strike

1s t L e v e l
Alarm
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Chromatic Orb
Color Spray
Comprehend Languages
Detect Magic
Disguise Self
Expeditious Retreat
False Life
Feather Fall
Find Familiar
Fog Cloud
Grease
Identify
Illusory Script
Jump
Longstrider
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Protection from
Evil and Good
Ray of Sickness
Shield
Silent Image
Sleep
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
Tenser’s Floating Disk
Thunderwave
Unseen Servant
Witch Bolt

2 n d L e v e l
Alter Self
Arcane Lock
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Cloud of Daggers
Continual Flame
Crown of Madness
Darkness
Darkvision
Detect Thoughts
Enlarge/Reduce
Flaming Sphere
Gentle Repose
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Melf’s Acid Arrow
Mirror Image

Misty Step
Nystul’s Magic Aura
Phantasmal Force
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope Trick
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Shatter
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Web

3 r d L e v e l
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Blink
Clairvoyance
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Fear
Feign Death
Fireball
Fly
Gaseous Form
Glyph o f Warding
Haste
Hypnotic Pattern
Leomund’s Tiny Hut
Lightning Bolt
Magic Circle
Major Image
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Protection from Energy
Remove Curse
Sending
Sleet Storm
Slow
Stinking Cloud
Tongues
Vampiric Touch
Water Breathing

4 t h L e v e l
Arcane Eye
Banishment
Blight
Confusion
Conjure Minor Elementals
Control Water
Dimension Door
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Greater Invisibility
Hallucinatory Terrain
Ice Storm
Leomund’s Secret Chest


Locate Creature
Mordenkainen’s
Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen’s
Private Sanctum
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Polymorph
Stone Shape
Stoneskin
Wall of Fire

5t h L e v e l
Animate Objects
Bigby’s Hand
CloudkilI
Cone of Cold
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Creation
Dominate Person
Dream
Geas
Hold Monster
Legend Lore
Mislead
Modify Memory
Passwall
Planar Binding
Rary’s Telepathic Bond
Scrying
Seeming
Telekinesis
Teleportation Circle
Wall of Force
Wall of Stone

6 t h L e v e l
Arcane Gate
Chain Lightning
Circle of Death
Contingency
Create Undead
Disintegrate
Drawmij’s Instant
Summons
Eyebite
Flesh to Stone
Globe of Invulnerability
Guards and Wards
Magic Jar
Mass Suggestion
Move Earth
Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere
Otto’s Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion

Sunbeam
True Seeing
Wall of Ice

7 t h L e v e l
Delayed Blast Fireball
Etherealness
Finger of Death
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's
Magnificent Mansion
Mordenkainen’s Sword
Plane Shift
Prismatic Spray
Project Image
Reverse Gravity
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol
Teleport

8 t h L e v e l
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Dominate Monster
Feeblemind
Incendiary Cloud
Maze
Mind Blank
Power Word Stun
Sunburst
Telepathy
Trap the Soul

9 t h L e v e l
Astral Projection
Foresight
Gate
Imprisonment
Meteor Swarm
Power Word Kill
Prismatic Wall
Shapechange
Time Stop
True Polymorph
Weird
Wish

I'm sure you can find plenty of concentration damage spells in there. All I needed to do is show that it is trvial for a full caster to "approach" thedamage output of a fighter. Hell, a single fireball vrs a bunch of targets within a 20 foot radius of a point chosen for fireball will wildly outdamage a fighter to an absurd degree; end of discussion, I'm done.

i am aware of the existence of a wizard spell list. but unless you want me to presume that, say, sleep is as relevant as flaming sphere which is as relevant as charm monster, that isn't really a particularly useful example.

(but incidentally, if you *are* telling me that every single spell in that list is an example of how a wizard approaches a fighter's damage, then my counterpoint is that locate object does not, therefore that list is not a suitable example. feel free to provide a specific example of how a caster is providing comparable damage to a fighter in the same way that improving a moon druid's wild shape would in the future, however. i'm certainly not going to go through a massive list of spells to attempt to prove your assertion so that i can disprove it, that's *your* job).

and a fireball does not approach a fighter's damage, because it has a completely different purpose. fireball is for groups. fighters don't generally do as well against groups (exception: some fighters actually can cast fireball, although the example that was provided for you to compare against does not). but fireball doesn't do anywhere near as well against one or two large, difficult targets. certainly, it isn't remotely close to a fighter in sustained damage, and it especially does absolutely nothing to match the fighter in terms of being a wall (not that a fighter is a particularly great wall, thanks to how AoOs work in 5e where you only get 1 per round, but compared to a fireball, they're looking pretty danged good).