Runelord Xanderghul: How did he pull it off?

[Thealtruistorc]

This is something that I've wondered ever since I got my hands on Shattered Star, pertaining to how the Runelords ended up in relation to each other. Predictably, Krune (Sloth) had a lot of power as a conjurer but didn't work hard enough to do anything with it. Similarly, the lords of Greed, Wrath, and Gluttony were all motivated by their sins to become extremely powerful and dangerous individuals who ruled vast territories. The strange outlier to all of this, however, is Xanderghul, who according to "Dead Heart of Xin" was by far the strongest of the Runelords. He had the most territory and wealth, becoming the most feared of the Runelords because allegedly he was so strong that nobody would contest him.

Here's the catch: He's a sin magic illusionist whose barred schools were conjuration and transmutation.

How, reasonably, would a person be able to compete with, much less come out on top of, other 20th-level and mythic spellcasters if they lack access to the best schools which foes were using against them? If any among you have ideas, I would be happy to hear them.

[Slipperychicken]

Because game writers don't base their stories solely off the mechanics of their game?

[Calthropstu]

Those are NOT the most powerful schools. Illusion is actually quite powerful and ridiculously versatile if you think about it. Plus, illusion has one of the only instant death spells remaining in the game. The necromancy kill spells were converted to damage.
Other things you can do with illusion?
Hold off entire armies, hide entire armies by making them all invisible. Throw out shadow versions of all the other schools... Illusion is, by far, the most ridiculously abusable power in the game... on a grand scale. Sure, conjuration, transmutation and evocation are useful in a knock down, drag out fight. But illusions can be made to anything.

[Coidzor]

To be a successful illusionist requires a lot of creativity and thinking outside of the box in ways not modeled by ability scores. The power of an illusionist is only limited by his creativity and what his GM will allow.

So that could be a factor.

More likely, though, is the idea that, hey, having an Illusionist be the biggest bad ass would make him scarier due to anything players could imagine to explain it would be scarier than whatever Jason Bulmahn or whoever could think up.

Even more likely, though, is that they thought Xanderghul was a good name and ran with it.

[icefractal]

Simulacrum, perhaps.
I made a Wrath-specialist Evoker once, and that's how I got around the loss of Conjuration - make Simulacra of creatures with good transportation abilities to carry me around.

You can also do Astral Projection Jr. by using Magic Jar to possess a Simulacra and then sending that out in your stead. Sure, you're out of range, so you die if it dies, but dying while safely in your home (with a minion standing next to you ready to cast Breath of Life) is a trivial inconvenience.

And as of recently, with the Observant Illusion discovery, Illusionists possess a spying capability that puts many Diviners to shame.

And of course - scrolls, wands, staves, UMD. A Runelord has lots of money. They can cast any non-combat spells they need just fine, regardless of what school or list it's on. Create Demiplane? Polymorph any Object? Astral Projection? Not a problem.


The amount of power sitting on the table for any 20th level caster (really, any 20th level character with access to a market) is enormous, more than is generally desirable for any story. So to an extent, "who's the strongest" just comes down to "who are the writers allowing to use the most power".

[AslanCross]

Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation?

[Sayt]

Golarion's fluff doesn't 100% match Pathfinder crunch, because the have different goals. Golarion's meta-purpose is to be a compelling setting in which to set stories (whether or not it does is beyond the scope of this thread.) Pathfinder RPG's purpose is to mediate the player's interactions with each other and the world.

That being said, illusion is no slouch: shadow conjuration, shadow evocation and shades are all in school, and they have access to divination, evocation (contingency) and universal (wishing) and enchantment (stealing other people's minions).

Conjuration has a lot of theoretical power (muh arbitrarily large bound army), but not having it is not the end of an empire.

[Calthropstu]

Conjuration has a lot of theoretical power (muh arbitrarily large bound army), but not having it is not the end of an empire.

Also, that "arbitrarily large bound army" is, more likely than not, to recieve an "arbitrarily larger" response from upper/lower planar entities who need their armies back.

[Coretron03]

Those are NOT the most powerful schools. Illusion is actually quite powerful and ridiculously versatile if you think about it. Plus, illusion has one of the only instant death spells remaining in the game. The necromancy kill spells were converted to damage.
Other things you can do with illusion?
Hold off entire armies, hide entire armies by making them all invisible. Throw out shadow versions of all the other schools... Illusion is, by far, the most ridiculously abusable power in the game... on a grand scale. Sure, conjuration, transmutation and evocation are useful in a knock down, drag out fight. But illusions can be made to anything.

Illusion is a pretty good school which is why I advoid opposing it as silent image/colour spray are nice spells although the bit about the only save or die spell bugs me. I would assume your referring to phantasmal killer which is pretty bad. Requiring 2 saves sucks and it has the mind affecting and fear tags which are common immunities. Flesh to stone, while a couple levels higher is transmution, loses the tags, has no chance to be reflected on you and requires one save.

Shadow conjuration/evocation are nice for utility but in combat they're rather lacking as a will save destroys their effectiveness and your haining weak effects that casting a different spell. You'd be hard pressed to find something that illusion can do well enough that banning conjuration and transmution would be reasonable.

Edit: Which is why sin magic:Illusion is terrible because it forces you to ban (3.5 style, not PF) the biggests and best schools in the game.

[Azoth]

Isn't there a feat that lets you pick one of your banned Schools as a Sin Mage? New Thessalonians Magic iirc.

Perhaps by using that to gain back either Conjuration or Transmutation, it would be more believable that he accomplished his deeds?

[Elricaltovilla]

I don't know what's so unbelievable about it, Illusion is a pretty good school to specialize in and he didn't ban Divination, so he could be very well prepared for any of his rivals. And if you've spent even a modest amount of time looking at the stat blocks for important NPCs in Golarion, you'll probably recognize just how low they've set the bar for effectiveness. Maybe Xanderghul was the only one who knew how to munchkin. :smalltongue:

[Der_DWSage]

I feel there might be a heavy dose of 'unreliable narrator' here. Consider this.

Xanderghul is an illusionist. While he still has some definite magical chops to contend with, he doesn't need to be the biggest, baddest, or even the smartest-he just needs to be able to convince everyone else that he is. And Divination is not on the list of barred schools.

He has the most land because he showed up with an 'army' of Veiled individuals (With just enough real individuals in the mix to be convincing) and made a show of force. He has the biggest army because he keeps showing up with his 'army.' He has people willing to testify that he's the biggest badass because either a)He showed up with said army, or b)A Divination of 'Who's going to speak against me' followed by a Dominate Person or Phantasmal Killer+Disguise Self makes for a pretty effective combo. Invisible assassins for your political enemies. Cleverly-used Project Image spells make him nigh-untouchable in combat to those without enough magical juice to dispel it reliably. He'd also be in the best position to deny his opponents the ability to scry or divine on him, which can be a major advantage when everyone has divination.

The true power of illusion is subtler than the other schools, but it all revolves around denying your enemies information while presenting the image that you want. And when you have just enough power to back up your image via other schools, it's very possible that he became the most feared by merit of 'fake it until you make it.'

[Zancloufer]

Now I am not familiar with the setting, but here is an idea that while mostly fluff, still has crunch support.

Yes in theory a level 20 Wizard that Banned Conjuration/Transmutation is weaker than a level 20 one that didn't. Who is saying that he had to fight level 20 wizards to get on top? Maybe he is the most powerful because he learned the best spells first?

Also as mentioned all the time Player>Build>Class.

[Xar Zarath]

Well something to consider is that each of the Runelords represent a sin by which their specialisation reflects. So for Xanderghul being the Runelord of Sinful Pride, illusions was the school to reflect that.

He represents the falseness of his accomplishments, of how he rose to the top but while he is not the top man, he believes himself to be surrounding himself with accomplishments most likely achieved by others. Illusions fit into that because they aren't real. They are just figments you create and give life if only for a little while and for the runelord it gives him an ego boost. I mean, he worshipped the Peacock spirit and if that isn't pride I don't know what is, at least for a powerful archmage.

As for how he is the most powerful, I don't know about that. The writers maybe liked it or you could think of it as the other runelords not giving any cares to what Xanderghul thought and gave him leeway. There was Zutha and Krune who were also powerful, the former because he was leader of a bountiful nation/breadbasket and could determine if your country and its people ate. The latter was a master of rune magic and tattoed it all over his body so no one messed with him but he was slothful so he didn't really care much about others.

[Psyren]

This is something that I've wondered ever since I got my hands on Shattered Star, pertaining to how the Runelords ended up in relation to each other. Predictably, Krune (Sloth) had a lot of power as a conjurer but didn't work hard enough to do anything with it. Similarly, the lords of Greed, Wrath, and Gluttony were all motivated by their sins to become extremely powerful and dangerous individuals who ruled vast territories. The strange outlier to all of this, however, is Xanderghul, who according to "Dead Heart of Xin" was by far the strongest of the Runelords. He had the most territory and wealth, becoming the most feared of the Runelords because allegedly he was so strong that nobody would contest him.

Here's the catch: He's a sin magic illusionist whose barred schools were conjuration and transmutation.

How, reasonably, would a person be able to compete with, much less come out on top of, other 20th-level and mythic spellcasters if they lack access to the best schools which foes were using against them? If any among you have ideas, I would be happy to hear them.

Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-conjuration/)
Shadow Transmutation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-transmutation/)

A Runelord could easily have custom versions of these spell chains that are quite powerful, plus these folks were Mythic on top of that if memory serves.

[Coretron03]

A Runelord could easily have custom versions of these spell chains that are quite powerful, plus these folks were Mythic on top of that if memory serves.

If they're mythic then thst instantly gives them a big bump as they can spontaneously cast from the wizard list. Even if you've removed 2 big chunks of it you'll still be incredibly powerful because the wizard spell list is huge.

[Arutema]

If they're mythic then thst instantly gives them a big bump as they can spontaneously cast from the wizard list. Even if you've removed 2 big chunks of it you'll still be incredibly powerful because the wizard spell list is huge.

Xangerghul is listed as level "20+" in Inner Sea Magic which was admittedly published before the mythic rules. Of the others listed as "20+" in that book, Baba Yaga, Old-Mage Jatembe, and Arazni have since gotten statblocks as mythic characters. So it's a good bet that Xanderghul was mythic.

[Vhaidara]

Their levels have quite a span. I know that Krune, for example, is statted in a PFS scenario. I think he was like, level 15? vs a level 20 mythic xanderghul. And, as Psyren pointed out, PF has been slowly but surely allowing illusion to copy everything (in addition to the two he linked, Shadow Evocation is still around, and I recall a Shadow Enchantment in one of the books, so from one school, he could access 5 schools)

Honestly, the thing I find funny, is that the power ranks of the runelords are more or less inverted from the traditional power ranks of the schools they represent. From my recollection, Conjuration, Transmutation, and Abjuration were on the weaker side, Necromancy in the middle, and the top was Enchantment, Evocation, and Illusion.

[Kurald Galain]

How, reasonably, would a person be able to compete with, much less come out on top of, other 20th-level and mythic spellcasters if they lack access to the best schools which foes were using against them? If any among you have ideas, I would be happy to hear them.

It is entirely possible that Xanderghul wasn't the most powerful Runelord by a long shot, but made everybody think he was (and therefore afraid to challenge him). This is certainly fitting for a masterful Illusionist... :smallcool:

[Calthropstu]

Illusion is a pretty good school which is why I advoid opposing it as silent image/colour spray are nice spells although the bit about the only save or die spell bugs me. I would assume your referring to phantasmal killer which is pretty bad. Requiring 2 saves sucks and it has the mind affecting and fear tags which are common immunities. Flesh to stone, while a couple levels higher is transmution, loses the tags, has no chance to be reflected on you and requires one save.

Shadow conjuration/evocation are nice for utility but in combat they're rather lacking as a will save destroys their effectiveness and your haining weak effects that casting a different spell. You'd be hard pressed to find something that illusion can do well enough that banning conjuration and transmution would be reasonable.

Edit: Which is why sin magic:Illusion is terrible because it forces you to ban (3.5 style, not PF) the biggests and best schools in the game.

You're thinking combat again. Foolish mistake to think the most powerful spells are those used in combat.

I could destroy entire eco systems with illusions... or enhance them. I could hide the bridge and make it look 10 feet to left, set up the illusion to look like nothing is wrong, and watch an entire army march itself off a cliff. I could disguise myself as anyone I want, and issue conflicting orders. I could make it look like my army is going one place and march it somewhere else.

[Kurald Galain]

Karzoug is level 20, and as I recall Sorshen is also 20. Krune is level 17 because, you know, sloth. :smallbiggrin:

[Vhaidara]

I could hide the bridge and make it look 10 feet to left, set up the illusion to look like nothing is wrong, and watch an entire army march itself off a cliff.

Yes, because the guys not in the front will totally keep walking after their buddies fell through the bridge.

[Psyren]

Xangerghul is listed as level "20+" in Inner Sea Magic which was admittedly published before the mythic rules. Of the others listed as "20+" in that book, Baba Yaga, Old-Mage Jatembe, and Arazni have since gotten statblocks as mythic characters. So it's a good bet that Xanderghul was mythic.

The remake of Rise of the Runelords also uses Mythic rules IIRC.
EDIT: Or am I thinking of Wrath of the Righteous?


Their levels have quite a span. I know that Krune, for example, is statted in a PFS scenario. I think he was like, level 15? vs a level 20 mythic xanderghul. And, as Psyren pointed out, PF has been slowly but surely allowing illusion to copy everything (in addition to the two he linked, Shadow Evocation is still around, and I recall a Shadow Enchantment in one of the books, so from one school, he could access 5 schools)

Honestly, the thing I find funny, is that the power ranks of the runelords are more or less inverted from the traditional power ranks of the schools they represent. From my recollection, Conjuration, Transmutation, and Abjuration were on the weaker side, Necromancy in the middle, and the top was Enchantment, Evocation, and Illusion.

I'd rank Illusion well above Abjuration personally.

[Elricaltovilla]

Yes, because the guys not in the front will totally keep walking after their buddies fell through the bridge.

Just use a second (or third) illusion to make it look like the army is able to cross safely.

[Coidzor]

I'd rank Illusion well above Abjuration personally.

IIRC the ranking is, generally, something along these lines, with the exact placement of Transmutation vs Conjuration debated and the order of Divination, Necromancy, and Abjuration in the middle sometimes in contention.

Illusion (if fully pimped and perhaps even going overboard with rule of cool)
Conjuration
Transmutation
Illusion (with a creative player and a GM that plays ball)
Divination
Necromancy
Abjuration
Illusion (with an uncreative player and a GM who only allows effects that are strictly defined)
Enchantment and Evocation sorta tied for last place.
Illusion (in a hostile GMing environment)

[Psyren]

Note that Enchantment is quite a bit stronger in PF, due to the substantial nerfs to things like Mind Blank and Pro:Evil, and the existence of other things like Coaxing Spell and Threnodic Spell.

[icefractal]

The thing about those rankings is that they're generally based on personal scale action. So if Xanderghul's in a one on one arena fight with another Runelord, he might have an issue. But that's not usually how Runelords do combat each-other.

When you’re talking about people with massive amounts of wealth, large quantities of minions, entire regions that they control? The specific capabilities of the character are much less important. An Expert 20 who uses good strategy and a bit of cheese could likely defeat a Wizard 20 who only relies on their personal combat prowess under those conditions. Certainly, a Wizard with a slightly worse spell selection could do so.

Also, even ignoring the fact that Runelords have plenty of ways to cast any spell, prohibited or not - Transmutation isn’t even that great on a strategic level. Conjuration is, no debate there, but Transmutation offers less than Divination, Enchantment, Illusion, or Necromancy at a large-scale level.

[TheDarkDM]

Just as an aside, Wrath of the Righteous revealed that Xanderghul and Sorshen were Mythic - the rest were "only" level 17-20 Azlanti specialist wizards. This is borne out, at least for Sorshen, in the blurb about her in the Crimson Throne anniversary edition. Xanderghul is also supposed to have borne a striking resemblance to Xin, so there might be some further plot-level shenanigans to explain his power.

[Sayt]

Its also worth noting that Old-mage Jatembe basically reinvented wizardry after Earthfall. The original Azlanti and Thassilonians were not necessarily playing wifh the same playspellbook as modern Golarion mages.

[Calthropstu]

Yes, because the guys not in the front will totally keep walking after their buddies fell through the bridge.

That's where you manipulate the illusion to look like they keep going.

[Vhaidara]

That's where you manipulate the illusion to look like they keep going.

So you're in range to fine tune the illusion of this bridge, and apparently also supplied a silence spell all the way down the cliff/river that the bridge goes over so that they can't hear their friend's screaming.

[Calthropstu]

So you're in range to fine tune the illusion of this bridge, and apparently also supplied a silence spell all the way down the cliff/river that the bridge goes over so that they can't hear their friend's screaming.

Exactly. Only problem is keeping from laughing as they continue their lemming march.