Best ToB School for an Unarmed Monk?

[Darth Grall]

So recently found out a 3.X game I was playing in allowed Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords and because he also has an extra rule set that gives me bonus points to spend on feats and stuff, I was gonna pick up a bunch of maneuvers and stances from a particular school. From a flavor perspective I was looking at Stone Dragon but the Iron one looks pretty good, but what would be best? There any optimization guides out there for a ToB Monk?

Thanks for any and all advice!

[Venger]

if tob is allowed, are you interested in playing an unarmed swordsage?

[Jack_McSnatch]

The setting sun school is 100% geared towards unarmed fighters. Shadow hand is also good

[flappeercraft]

Tiger claw could be useful. Also I second Shadow hand

[Soranar]

Shadow hand is probably the most versatile school of maneuver and stances, it basically always gives you options that the others can't match (ability damage, status effects, teleportation, etc).

The fire school is mostly a trap unfortunately, too many things are immune or highly resistant to fire.

Setting sun is mostly about throwing people around, it's too situational for my taste

Tiger claw has some real gems in there: bonus attacks, jump/move as a swift action, just make sure not to take too many of those

Diamond mind has great defenses, you can replace many things with a concentration check. Definitely worth it.

[Hunter Noventa]

Also, if you focus on Shadow Hand, you can actually dump Strength, because while in a Shadow Hand stance, you add your Dexterity to your unarmed strike. The actual feat doesn't say you lose the strength damage, but there's probably errata that does. Still, that and weapon finesse would remove the need for strength, but only while you're in a Shadow Hand stance. But considering how good those stances can be, it's hardly a problem.

[Pleh]

The actual feat doesn't say you lose the strength damage, but there's probably errata that does.

Eh, not really (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?460184-Tome-of-Battle-Errata).

[Particle_Man]

btw, if you like shadow hand and take a single setting sun maneuver too, you might want to look at the ToB monk-friendly prestige class "shadow sun ninja" down the road.

[Darth Grall]

if tob is allowed, are you interested in playing an unarmed swordsage?Can't, this is a character I've played for like 6 years so I can't do a full rebuild. Definitely something I'm planning on as a backup PC.

The setting sun school is 100% geared towards unarmed fighters. Shadow hand is also goodThanks, I'll look into those too.

Tiger claw could be useful. Also I second Shadow handI'll check Tiger too.

Shadow hand is probably the most versatile school of maneuver and stances, it basically always gives you options that the others can't match (ability damage, status effects, teleportation, etc).

The fire school is mostly a trap unfortunately, too many things are immune or highly resistant to fire.

Setting sun is mostly about throwing people around, it's too situational for my taste

Tiger claw has some real gems in there: bonus attacks, jump/move as a swift action, just make sure not to take too many of those

Diamond mind has great defenses, you can replace many things with a concentration check. Definitely worth it.I'll skip the fire school(desert wind IIRC) and I'll add diamond mind to the list of stuff to check out.

Also, if you focus on Shadow Hand, you can actually dump Strength, because while in a Shadow Hand stance, you add your Dexterity to your unarmed strike. The actual feat doesn't say you lose the strength damage, but there's probably errata that does. Still, that and weapon finesse would remove the need for strength, but only while you're in a Shadow Hand stance. But considering how good those stances can be, it's hardly a problem.I would, but since this is an existing build not much I can do to dump a stat I already use.

btw, if you like shadow hand and take a single setting sun maneuver too, you might want to look at the ToB monk-friendly prestige class "shadow sun ninja" down the road.Shadow Sun? I hadn't heard of that, definitely will do!

[Gruftzwerg]

If you intend to go TWF unarmed, give a look at the Bloodclaw Master prc in ToB.
It gets totally rid of twf penalty and add full str bonus to offhand. It requires Tiger maneuvers to enter.


Further I would recommend a Shadow Hand stance to get access to the Shadow Blade feat (add Dex to unarmed dmg).

If you wanna have some kind of heal ability, have a look at the Shadow Sun Ninja prc.

If you wanna sole focus and maneuvers, give Master of Nine a look.

[Hunter Noventa]

I would, but since this is an existing build not much I can do to dump a stat I already use.


Wel it sounds like the feat makes your dex stack with your strength. SO it might till be an option.

But yes, Shadow Sun Ninja is a pretty fun PrC. Setting Sun and Shadow Hand are good schools. A splash of Stone Dragon wouldn't hurt either, due to the DR-Overcoming maneuvers it has.

[TorsteinTheRed]

Stone Dragon is, for damage purposes, my favorite to use Unarmed, and would be the school I'd pick if I was only choosing one. The Mountain Hammer set of maneuvers punches through all DR, and deals CON damage at the top level(notable without having any maneuver prerequisites!). I believe, however, that there is a clause somewhere that one has to be standing on solid ground to initiate that school, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Diamond Mind has some good choices, depending on your flavor of Monk, but a lot of them depend on having a large Concentration check. The top level maneuver here let's you take 2 full round attacks, though, which when combined with an accurate Flurry of Blows could be devastating.

Shadow Hand works very well if your flavor is of the sneaky variety. Consealment, teleports, sneak attacks, etc. However, many maneuvers, including the 9th level one, rely on enemies failing Fort saves, which against the massive foes often fought at high levels becomes less and less likely.

I personally love Desert Wind, and tried to make a character based mainly on that school. Sadly, as others have noted, many things become straight up immune to Fire as you get higher in level. There's a lot of good flavor in there, though, and you know the kinds of enemies your DM might throw at you more than we do, so don't count it completely out. The 100ft reactionary teleport is an excellent way to close distance on an enemy Archer, for example.

[Hunter Noventa]

Stone Dragon is, for damage purposes, my favorite to use Unarmed, and would be the school I'd pick if I was only choosing one. The Mountain Hammer set of maneuvers punches through all DR, and deals CON damage at the top level(notable without having any maneuver prerequisites!). I believe, however, that there is a clause somewhere that one has to be standing on solid ground to initiate that school, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Diamond Mind has some good choices, depending on your flavor of Monk, but a lot of them depend on having a large Concentration check. The top level maneuver here let's you take 2 full round attacks, though, which when combined with an accurate Flurry of Blows could be devastating.

Shadow Hand works very well if your flavor is of the sneaky variety. Consealment, teleports, sneak attacks, etc. However, many maneuvers, including the 9th level one, rely on enemies failing Fort saves, which against the massive foes often fought at high levels becomes less and less likely.

I personally love Desert Wind, and tried to make a character based mainly on that school. Sadly, as others have noted, many things become straight up immune to Fire as you get higher in level. There's a lot of good flavor in there, though, and you know the kinds of enemies your DM might throw at you more than we do, so don't count it completely out. The 100ft reactionary teleport is an excellent way to close distance on an enemy Archer, for example.

My first Swordsage got some amazing use out of the Desert Wind Maneuver that lets you encircle an area and have it explode. He was riding an air elemental at the time and the DM let me use that movement instead of my own for it. Big boom.

Also pretty sure that Stone Dragon maneuver you reference is supposed to have similar prereqs as other level 9 maneuvers.

[Particle_Man]

Also pretty sure that Stone Dragon maneuver you reference is supposed to have similar prereqs as other level 9 maneuvers.

Do you have a source for that? Nothing is listed under Mountain Tombstone Strike and of course the errata is borked.

[Hunter Noventa]

Do you have a source for that? Nothing is listed under Mountain Tombstone Strike and of course the errata is borked.

Just common sense mostly, since as we noted, the errata is borked. But yes, RAW it doesn't have a requirement.

[Gruftzwerg]

Just common sense mostly, since as we noted, the errata is borked. But yes, RAW it doesn't have a requirement.

The RAW requirement for Mountain Tombstone Strike is an initiator lvl of 17, the same lvl requirement a caster have to invest into "+1 spellcasting" classes to get his lvl 9s. I don't see any problem at all. It's just that some maneuvers are free of other maneuver dependence, which is imho very nice. Otherwise it would be just more restricting.
There are several higher lvl maneuvers, that don't require any other maneuvers known, but that doesn't mean everybody can get em.

non-initiator classes have an initiator lvl of max 10 (5th maneuvers) and could get with martial study at lvl 18 a 5th lvl maneuver (1/encounter), unless you dip at least into a martial class for a refresh mechanic. Imho that limitation enough.

[Particle_Man]

Also, there are maneuvers with 0 maneuver prerequisites in the 8th level maneuver list (under diamond mind) the 7th level list (under desert wind and shadow hand) and in fact in every maneuver list by level.

[Zaq]

It makes sense to me that the level 9 Stone Dragon maneuver would have no prereqs. Every martial adept has SD, right? This way, the devs ensured that no initiator could screw themself out of any level 9 maneuvers at all simply by building their prereqs poorly.

[Particle_Man]

Wellllllll, some prestige classes don't get SD, but I see your point.

[Andezzar]

Wel it sounds like the feat makes your dex stack with your strength. SO it might till be an option.

But yes, Shadow Sun Ninja is a pretty fun PrC. Setting Sun and Shadow Hand are good schools. A splash of Stone Dragon wouldn't hurt either, due to the DR-Overcoming maneuvers it has.If you just want the DR bypass, just get a stone dragon belt. No need to waste a feat/maneuver slot on it. Additionally the Stone Dragon discipline has a very annoying prerequisite of having to stand on solid ground for any maneuver to work.


Also, there are maneuvers with 0 maneuver prerequisites in the 8th level maneuver list (under diamond mind) the 7th level list (under desert wind and shadow hand) and in fact in every maneuver list by level.Good luck getting IL 7 or 8 on a build without Initiator classes.

[Venger]

If you just want the DR bypass, just get a stone dragon belt. No need to waste a feat/maneuver slot on it. Additionally the Stone Dragon discipline has a very annoying prerequisite of having to stand on solid ground for any maneuver to work.

Food luck getting IL 7 or 8 on a build without Initiator classes.
see if your gm will cut you a break and let you put some solid ground in your shoes

or you can just use foe hammer.

you need an IL of 13 for 7s and 15 for 8s, it follows the wizard progression.

[Andezzar]

see if your gm will cut you a break and let you put some solid ground in your shoesClaiming to be standing on your socks or on the stuff you put in your shoes just sounds weird and metagamey to me.


or you can just use foe hammer. While foehammer also overcomes DR it does not overcome hardness. Additionally for the DR bypass to apply you must hit an opponent, so even if an object had DR instead of hardness the maneuver would not work (unless you can prove that the object is an opponent). Mountain hammer works on any target.


you need an IL of 13 for 7s and 15 for 8s, it follows the wizard progression.Woops, that's what I meant of course.

[Particle_Man]

Good luck getting IL 7 or 8 on a build without Initiator classes.

Epic level, I guess. :smallsmile:

[lord_khaine]

We are already firmly in homebrew territory, so we cant make any sort of statements about his IL without more information.

Also, this forums dislike for fire damage is well documented, but unless your GM regularly throw outsiders against you then Desert wind does have some useful lowlevel tricks. Burning blade in particular adds bonus fire damage to tall your melee attacks for a given round, and works well with a flurry of blows.

[Andezzar]

We are already firmly in homebrew territory, so we cant make any sort of statements about his IL without more information.Where did we enter homebrew territory? Except for the suggestion of having earth in the shoes as far as I can tell everything else is RAW.

[Venger]

Claiming to be standing on your socks or on the stuff you put in your shoes just sounds weird and metagamey to me.
I was joking.


While foehammer also overcomes DR it does not overcome hardness. Additionally for the DR bypass to apply you must hit an opponent, so even if an object had DR instead of hardness the maneuver would not work (unless you can prove that the object is an opponent). Mountain hammer works on any target.

Woops, that's what I meant of course.

While that's true, who cares about hardness?

it happens

[Andezzar]

While that's true, who cares about hardness?I like to use the mountain hammer/stone dragon belt as a universal key.

[Gruftzwerg]

I like to use the mountain hammer/stone dragon belt as a universal key.

why not invest in universal damage? e.g. charge

unless you are in a tiny 5ft square spot where you are denied to charge, I would suggest going for that instead.

I always wonder why people care about bypassing DR (or even hardness)? Sure it's a nice to have, but nothing I would willingly spare any kind of resources for. Cause those resources can also be invested into straight dmg. While the DR bypass will only help you in the few given scenarios of DR, the straight dmg boost will always be there.
Good dmg builds can easily reach 3 digit numbers, so why care for DR 10/- ?

Imho focus on pure dmg!

you wanna break doors/locks with your hands?
- Necklace of Natural Attacks (+1 Sizing, +1 Valorous)
- Sandals of the Tiger Leap (x2 unarmed charge multiplier)
- if you have the money, get Fly and make dive attacks for another charge multiplier.

size your hands to colossal for a -8 to hit (you are attacking an objects low AC and can even take 10/20 most times), charge/dive for multipliers and punch anything you desire into pieces. And if you have Power Attack, add it for the charge multiplier cheese for more awesome dmg.

There is really no point in wasting your maneuvers known for anti DR abilities.

[zergling.exe]

why not invest in universal damage? e.g. charge

unless you are in a tiny 5ft square spot where you are denied to charge, I would suggest going for that instead.

I always wonder why people care about bypassing DR (or even hardness)? Sure it's a nice to have, but nothing I would willingly spare any kind of resources for. Cause those resources can also be invested into straight dmg. While the DR bypass will only help you in the few given scenarios of DR, the straight dmg boost will always be there.
Good dmg builds can easily reach 3 digit numbers, so why care for DR 10/- ?

Imho focus on pure dmg!

you wanna break doors/locks with your hands?
- Necklace of Natural Attacks (+1 Sizing, +1 Valorous)
- Sandals of the Tiger Leap (x2 unarmed charge multiplier)
- if you have the money, get Fly and make dive attacks for another charge multiplier.

size your hands to colossal for a -8 to hit (you are attacking an objects low AC and can even take 10/20 most times), charge/dive for multipliers and punch anything you desire into pieces. And if you have Power Attack, add it for the charge multiplier cheese for more awesome dmg.

There is really no point in wasting your maneuvers known for anti DR abilities.

Universal KEY, as in smash down doors or through walls, not for combat usage exclusively. Objects tend to take drastically reduced damage from anything that's not just ignoring their defenses.

[Gruftzwerg]

Universal KEY, as in smash down doors or through walls, not for combat usage exclusively. Objects tend to take drastically reduced damage from anything that's not just ignoring their defenses.

That's what I said/asked. Why limit only on objects? And about what "drastically reduced damage" are you talking about? Max hardness (Adamantine) is 20 as far as I know. Again, why not focus on pure damage for 3 digit dmg numbers?
Why not charge the stupid door/lock for 100+ dmg? The Adamantine door still takes over 80+ dmg.

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see your point.

edit: even if yo don't have 100+ dmg. even with only 21dmg, unless you are short in time, you will smash it.. . So if you wanna get in faster, get more dmg.

[Andezzar]

That's what I said/asked. Why limit only on objects? And about what "drastically reduced damage" are you talking about? Max hardness (Adamantine) is 20 as far as I know. Again, why not focus on pure damage for 3 digit dmg numbers?
Why not charge the stupid door/lock for 100+ dmg? The Adamantine door still takes over 80+ dmg.Not everyone wants to play an uber-charger, a big part of that build is pounce and the easiest way to get pounce (barb 1 with spritual lion totem ACF) isn't that good on a monk (lose rage, unarmed damage isn't a two-handed weapon).

Of course you can just increase your damage.

[Venger]

I like to use the mountain hammer/stone dragon belt as a universal key.
I know this is part of the swordsage handbook and part of our collective cultural knowledge when it comes to tob, but in actual practice, does this come up that often?


That's what I said/asked. Why limit only on objects? And about what "drastically reduced damage" are you talking about? Max hardness (Adamantine) is 20 as far as I know. Again, why not focus on pure damage for 3 digit dmg numbers?
Why not charge the stupid door/lock for 100+ dmg? The Adamantine door still takes over 80+ dmg.

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see your point.

edit: even if yo don't have 100+ dmg. even with only 21dmg, unless you are short in time, you will smash it.. . So if you wanna get in faster, get more dmg.


Not everyone wants to play an uber-charger, a big part of that build is pounce and the easiest way to get pounce (barb 1 with spritual lion totem ACF) isn't that good on a monk (lose rage, unarmed damage isn't a two-handed weapon).

Of course you can just increase your damage.

I feel a bit like you're talking past each other.

I think the central issue is when are you going to be in a scenario where you need to:
1) destroy an object
2) have a very limited amount of time to do it
3) still be able to destroy that object in the time limit with the piddly damage mountain hammer does?

if it's just 1, any source of damage works
if it's just 2, mountain hammer's damage is too low to do it for anything where its hardness in the first place (such as adamantine) would be an issue
I don't know that 3 would really ever come up

if you really need to smash through some rocks or whatever and get to a secret room and dig a tunnel, it's going to take so long, even with mountain hammer, that you're going to drop out of round by round actions anyway. in this instance, just using an adamantine hammer would have pretty much the same effect (it might even be faster if the party brute was swinging it)

mountain hammer's ability to penetrate enemy DR is undoubtedly useful, but foe hammer replicates that, plus you can use it while flying, which is vital past mid levels.

[Darth Grall]

Hey all, just give you all an update: Spent the weekend looking up the recommended styles and I'm really digging the options Shadow Hand, since I can get a solid Damage buff with Shadow Hand, lots of utility there so probably going to go with them so thanks for all the help!

Follow up question though, what's the deal with initiator levels? It only matters for stuff with variable effects/saves correct? I saw that under level it said that I could learn any maneuver I want via the martial study feat regardless of class, but I still have to meet the prerequisites. So if I wanted to be clear that I could take an 8th level stance like Balance on the Sky, I would still have to have 3 manuevers(or stances), but I wouldn't need to be level 16 for instance? Just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

[Venger]

Hey all, just give you all an update: Spent the weekend looking up the recommended styles and I'm really digging the options Shadow Hand, since I can get a solid AB buff with Shadow Hand, lots of utility there so probably going to go with them so thanks for all the help!

Follow up question though, what's the deal with initiator levels? It only matters for stuff with variable effects correct? I saw that under level it said that I could learn any maneuver I want via the martial study feat regardless of class, but I still have to meet the prerequisites. So if I wanted to be clear that I could take an 8th level stance like Balance on the Sky, I would still have to have 3 manuevers(or stances), but I wouldn't need to be level 16 for instance? Just want to make sure

You absolutely need to meet the minimum initiator level in order to take a stance.

Initiator levels provide 1 level. Non-initiator levels provide 1/2 level rounded down.

a 12th level non-initiator has an IL of 6.

It follows wizard progression so multiply by 2 and subtract 1. (you get 1s at 1, 2s at 3, 3s at 5, etc)

[Darth Grall]

You absolutely need to meet the minimum initiator level in order to take a stance.

Initiator levels provide 1 level. Non-initiator levels provide 1/2 level rounded down.

a 12th level non-initiator has an IL of 6.

It follows wizard progression so multiply by 2 and subtract 1. (you get 1s at 1, 2s at 3, 3s at 5, etc)
Ah, okay, well that makes sense though. Is there any way to boost your Initiator level outside of taking an adept class then? Cause while I can wait till I'm level 16 I'd prefer to do it sooner. Plus for RP reasons I can't Multi-Class.

[Venger]

Ah, okay, well that makes sense though. Is there any way to boost your Initiator level outside of taking an adept class then? Cause while I can wait till I'm level 16 I'd prefer to do it sooner. Plus for RP reasons I can't Multi-Class.

You mean to get more than 1 IL/level? And without taking any initiator levels? No. Just to clarify, you need an initiator level of 16, not just a character level of 16. If you never take any initiator levels, the highes IL you can ever have is 10

[Darth Grall]

You mean to get more than 1 IL/level? And without taking any initiator levels? No. Just to clarify, you need an initiator level of 16, not just a character level of 16. If you never take any initiator levels, the highes IL you can ever have is 10
Ah, you're right! That stinks, but I think I definitely can still benefit from some of the low level maneuvers in shadow. Definitely put some stuff out of reach for now though, but good to know for the future and thanks for the help and clarification all.

[Venger]

Ah, you're right! That stinks, but I think I definitely can still benefit from some of the low level maneuvers in shadow. Definitely put some stuff out of reach for now though, but good to know for the future and thanks for the help and clarification all.

If all you need is a maneuver or two, you might just use the items in the back of the book.

[Darth Grall]

If all you need is a maneuver or two, you might just use the items in the back of the book.
Thanks, I'll give that a look also.

[Particle_Man]

The ToB prestige class shadow sun ninja can advance some of your monk abilities and increase your IL on 1-for-1 basis (as opposed to 0.5 for 1 for your monk levels).