Alternative Magic System?

[sammyp03]

Im not a huge fan of the core magic system in 5e. While good, it doesnt really fit the feel of my homebrew world.
Does anyone know of any alternate magic systems?

[pwykersotz]

I'm with you 100%. But there are a lot of magic systems out there. Do you know what you're looking for?

My current interest is the magic system in the Fate Dresden Files (http://www.evilhat.com/home/dresden-files-rpg/) game.
I've also been interested in the systems of Mage the Ascension (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Mage:_The_Ascension) and Mage the Awakening (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Mage:_The_Awakening), Ars Magica (http://www.atlas-games.com/arm5/), and What's Old Is New (http://www.woinrpg.com/magic/).

I also recommend looking at FATE's guide to building a magic system (https://fate-srd.com/fate-system-toolkit/magic) to help you identify what type you might like.

If you come up with any more details, I'm sure this can be drilled down much better to suit your needs.

[sammyp03]

I'm with you 100%. But there are a lot of magic systems out there. Do you know what you're looking for?

My current interest is the magic system in the Fate Dresden Files (http://www.evilhat.com/home/dresden-files-rpg/) game.
I've also been interested in the systems of Mage the Ascension (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Mage:_The_Ascension) and Mage the Awakening (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Mage:_The_Awakening), Ars Magica (http://www.atlas-games.com/arm5/), and What's Old Is New (http://www.woinrpg.com/magic/).

I also recommend looking at FATE's guide to building a magic system (https://fate-srd.com/fate-system-toolkit/magic) to help you identify what type you might like.

If you come up with any more details, I'm sure this can be drilled down much better to suit your needs.

Well the magic in my world is based loosely on the Wheel of Time. Magic users in my world (if i can manage) should be able to access the same spells (although i dont like the idea of spells)

I really really like spheres of power. I think it really captures what the feel of magic in my world im going for. I just keep running into conversion problems so i was looking for other interesting concepts that may be easier to convert or has already been converted.

[pwykersotz]

Yeah, the eternal problem is while these systems are all great, they aren't easy to integrate into 5e, or really even D20 as a whole.

I'd check out the Dresden Files system. There's fewer moving parts than in Spheres of Power (I tried to convert that one but got hung up on a few of the more complex spheres), and it's pretty wide open while providing some meaningful restrictions. I'm still mulling it over myself, I haven't played it yet, but I love the feel.

You might also check out Monte Cook's World of Darkness (https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13404.phtml) game. I had forgotten it until just now. It has some interesting stuff as well.

I'm afraid I might not be of much more help past this, as I have the exact same problem as you and I'm still seeking a solution. :smallsigh:

[Sigreid]

The Grim Tales book, which was modified 3.x rules, used a system where to cast a spell you had to make an arcane check or something. If you succeeded, the spell cast and you payed strength to fuel it. If you failed, the spell didn't cast. If you succeeded by enough, the spell cast without costing you strength. No spell slots. If you didn't have enough strength left, you could pay with con. So you could cast as much as you liked, but cast too much and you may find yourself exhausted, coughing up blood, or dead.

[sammyp03]

Yeah, the eternal problem is while these systems are all great, they aren't easy to integrate into 5e, or really even D20 as a whole.

I'd check out the Dresden Files system. There's fewer moving parts than in Spheres of Power (I tried to convert that one but got hung up on a few of the more complex spheres), and it's pretty wide open while providing some meaningful restrictions. I'm still mulling it over myself, I haven't played it yet, but I love the feel.

You might also check out Monte Cook's World of Darkness (https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13404.phtml) game. I had forgotten it until just now. It has some interesting stuff as well.

I'm afraid I might not be of much more help past this, as I have the exact same problem as you and I'm still seeking a solution. :smallsigh:

thanks for the suggestions. Ill definitely check them out

[Typhon]

Savage Worlds has a system that is pretty solid. More of a pick this and that deal but fairly robust and adaptable.

[sammyp03]

Savage Worlds has a system that is pretty solid. More of a pick this and that deal but fairly robust and adaptable.

I'll check it out thanks.

Does anyone have any opinions on the dungeon crawl classics magic system?

[Arkhios]

Unfortunately I don't know what Spheres of Power magic is like.

However, one slightly different variant system which I would've wanted to try in Pathfinder was Words of Power. Instead of specific spells, spellcasters would have access to a set of Words of Power which - when combined - would produce varying effects similar to spells but the exact combinations would be more under your control.

[thorr-kan]

The Grim Tales book, which was modified 3.x rules, used a system where to cast a spell you had to make an arcane check or something.
I'm curious. Have a link to where this can be purchased?

[Segev]

I really really like spheres of power. I think it really captures what the feel of magic in my world im going for. I just keep running into conversion problems so i was looking for other interesting concepts that may be easier to convert or has already been converted.

What are the conversion problems you're facing?

[Sigreid]

I'm curious. Have a link to where this can be purchased?

https://www.amazon.com/Grim-Tales-Adventure-Magic-BAG03201/dp/0972041699

[sammyp03]

What are the conversion problems you're facing?

Mainly, the spell points (was thinking of adding a limit equal to proficiency bonus per sphere cast) and caster level as a major balancing factor and since caster level isn't a thing in 5e I was trying to figure out a way around this.

I haven't gone through all of the spheres so I'm not sure what else comes up but I think everything else would be much easier

[Typhon]

Mainly, the spell points (was thinking of adding a limit equal to proficiency bonus per sphere cast) and caster level as a major balancing factor and since caster level isn't a thing in 5e I was trying to figure out a way around this.

I haven't gone through all of the spheres so I'm not sure what else comes up but I think everything else would be much easier

You could treat all the spheres individually. Figure arrange them based on elemental and/or school orientation and increase the difficulty as they move away from their primary/original.

[sammyp03]

You could treat all the spheres individually. Figure arrange them based on elemental and/or school orientation and increase the difficulty as they move away from their primary/original.

Not quite sure I understand what your saying

[Typhon]

Not quite sure I understand what your saying

In previous edition, 2nd namely, there were opposition schools. You couldn't learn those schools. However, if you preferred, have the player choose a type of spells and have that be the primary. The more different from that school, the harder to cast. Such as Necromancers had illusion and enchantment/charm as opposition schools, so those spells were off limits. If the spell existed as part of another school it could still be cast, just not as a part of one of those schools.

I also like the idea of one sphere being your primary and to that school you receive a bonus. Your opposition sphere you suffer a penalty, and all others are unmodified.

[sammyp03]

Ahh like in 3.5 specialization. Interesting idea. I'm still stuck on the caster level stuff of SoP though

[Typhon]

Ahh like in 3.5 specialization. Interesting idea. I'm still stuck on the caster level stuff of SoP though

I feel like 2nd did it better. Instead of caster level, why not proficiency level? The more proficient at arcana the more powerful the spells you can cast and create.

[sammyp03]

I'll hAve to take a look. I've never played 2nd. Have you ever seen the dungeon crawl classics system?

[Typhon]

I'll hAve to take a look. I've never played 2nd. Have you ever seen the dungeon crawl classics system?

I, unfortunately, cannot say that I have. I will try to look it up.

[sammyp03]

I, unfortunately, cannot say that I have. I will try to look it up.

Sweet let me know if you do

[thorr-kan]

https://www.amazon.com/Grim-Tales-Adventure-Magic-BAG03201/dp/0972041699
Thank you.

[Segev]

It would probably require increasing the number of spell points, but you could simulate the "cast from higher slot" rules that replaced CL for calculating dice of damage by having, instead of CL-based effects, the effects be based on how many spell points are pumped into the effect.


I forget; does 5e use caster level to determine any durations, even?

[BurgerBeast]

2nd Edition had a book called Player's Option: Spells and Magic, which presented alternate magic systems of magic, ways of categorizing magic, and ways of categorizing spells.

It's worth a look.

As a side note, I think it is the book that originally presented the 0-level spell, referred to as a cantrip for wizards and an orison for priests.

[JellyPooga]

I'll hAve to take a look. I've never played 2nd. Have you ever seen the dungeon crawl classics system?

DCC is just bonkers. Unless you like looking up a table and rolling on it practically every time you cast a spell, just don't go there. If you like the notion that magic will eventually either a) devour your soul, b) turn you into a hideous abomination or c) simply wipe ypu off the face of the planet, leaving only a pair of smoking boots...perhaps it might be worth looking at!

Seriously though, DCC's magic system is like the rest of the game; highly entertaining and full of that old-school comedy gold and a butt-ton of randomness, but awkward and clunky almost to the point of unplayability. Probably better suited for one-shot adventures than extended play (at least if you value your players sanities!).

[rollingForInit]

Well the magic in my world is based loosely on the Wheel of Time. Magic users in my world (if i can manage) should be able to access the same spells (although i dont like the idea of spells)

I really really like spheres of power. I think it really captures what the feel of magic in my world im going for. I just keep running into conversion problems so i was looking for other interesting concepts that may be easier to convert or has already been converted.

Personally, I think that the rules for Mage: The Awakening would be a really great way to simulate something like the Wheel of Time magic. That magic system makes spellcasters pretty much overpowered compared to others, and there are almost no limitations on what you can do, and very little resource management (e.g. no running out of spell slots). In M:TA 1e there's even a supplement for how to implement the system in a fantasy setting, removing some of the restrictions. But M:TA 2e is better, imo.

That'd work great if you want a game where all mages are really overpowered, like if you're running an all-mage group. If you're doing a mixed group, there's a pretty big risk that whoever is playing a mage is going to outshine everyone, with magic making them more stealthy than the rogue, stronger than the fighter and more charismatic than the bard.

[Steampunkette]

Take a look at the 5e Mystic unearthed arcana that was released just recently.

Their Disciplines are very Spherelike, their casting isn't all outlined in a Vancian style, and they cover most major magical ideas with their Disciplines. Use those as guidelines and let your players develop their own "Spheres" around what exists, or create new effects for their powers that respect rough boundaries of cost and magnitude to the other disciplines.

[sammyp03]

It would probably require increasing the number of spell points, but you could simulate the "cast from higher slot" rules that replaced CL for calculating dice of damage by having, instead of CL-based effects, the effects be based on how many spell points are pumped into the effect.


I forget; does 5e use caster level to determine any durations, even?

Are you saying use this as alternative to spheres of power caster level?

[Arkhios]

I forget; does 5e use caster level to determine any durations, even?

Not really. 5e doesn't refer to the term 'caster level' at any point. It's been carried over from previous editions by the players.

Most of the time spells have fixed durations, but some spells have their durations altered depending on spell slot level.

I believe the term has been dropped because 'caster level' doesn't affect anything anymore. Even the Saving Throw DC depends more on your overall level rather than your spellcasting class(es) level.

[sammyp03]

Take a look at the 5e Mystic unearthed arcana that was released just recently.

Their Disciplines are very Spherelike, their casting isn't all outlined in a Vancian style, and they cover most major magical ideas with their Disciplines. Use those as guidelines and let your players develop their own "Spheres" around what exists, or create new effects for their powers that respect rough boundaries of cost and magnitude to the other disciplines.

Ill definitely check this out. Thanks

[Segev]

Are you saying use this as alternative to spheres of power caster level?

If you wanted to keep with 5e's paradigm of "spell slot determines these values" over older editions "CL determines these values," yes. Drop the CL concept from Spheres entirely, and have number of spell points pumped into the effect determine things that currently are CL dependent.

Probably want to reframe many of the durations to be fixed values, as well, or dependent on the spell points pumped into the effect. It is some work, but I don't think it'd be too much, especially if you did it as it came up in people's builds.

[sammyp03]

If you wanted to keep with 5e's paradigm of "spell slot determines these values" over older editions "CL determines these values," yes. Drop the CL concept from Spheres entirely, and have number of spell points pumped into the effect determine things that currently are CL dependent.

Probably want to reframe many of the durations to be fixed values, as well, or dependent on the spell points pumped into the effect. It is some work, but I don't think it'd be too much, especially if you did it as it came up in people's builds.

Ill definitely look into this thanks

Edit: The more i think about this the more it makes sense. will take some configuring but i think this is a good middle ground.

Say for duration something like - 1 Spell point for 1 minute duration 3 for 10 minutes and 5 for an hour.

[sammyp03]

I have a base that id like to run by some folks if anyone would like to take a look.

[D-naras]

I'd like to take a look at what you came up

[Strill]

Personally, I think that the rules for Mage: The Awakening would be a really great way to simulate something like the Wheel of Time magic. That magic system makes spellcasters pretty much overpowered compared to others, and there are almost no limitations on what you can do, and very little resource management (e.g. no running out of spell slots). In M:TA 1e there's even a supplement for how to implement the system in a fantasy setting, removing some of the restrictions. But M:TA 2e is better, imo.

That'd work great if you want a game where all mages are really overpowered, like if you're running an all-mage group. If you're doing a mixed group, there's a pretty big risk that whoever is playing a mage is going to outshine everyone, with magic making them more stealthy than the rogue, stronger than the fighter and more charismatic than the bard.

I would highly recommend AGAINST using Mage. Mage is a game designed to make the players gods, and then force them to face the consequences of their decisions. Mage is absolutely not a game where power is limited in any way, and it flies directly in the face of D&D's paradigm where the goal is to overcome more and more powerful foes and gradually grow in strength.

Mage's combat system is also not designed to provide interesting tactical encounters against a variety of enemies. For example, in Mage, your first investment of xp can easily render you literally impervious to all mundane threats, as well as most supernatural threats. Learn the fourth dot of Spirit or Death and you can shift yourself into an alternate plane of existence at a moment's notice, then cast spells into the physical plane with impunity until your opponent dies. It's just like Blink, but with 100% success chance, and you don't even need to return to the Material plane to cast fireball. Literally the only way someone can defeat you at this point is if they can also shift into that particular plane of existence, but that plane is also where your magic is most applicable, and you can just sink into the ground or call on an army of spirits or levitate into the air or any number of other things that your opponent would require a highly-specialized ability to counter.

There's lots of spells that run along these lines. Shapeshift into a hawk and cast a spell to give your enemy a heart attack from a mile away, while flying above the clouds. If it doesn't kill him, just cast it again - most spells don't cost mana in Mage. He'll also have no idea what's happening, since spells have no verbal or somatic components by default, nor do they have any mundanely visible side-effects. The target just keels over with a heart attack while you smoke a cigarette inconspicuously. If you're not a Mage, you'll have no idea what happened.

Heck, once you learn a few dots of Space, you don't even need to confront your enemies. Just blow them up from halfway across the world. Or with Time, you could predict where they'll be, them toss a bomb into tommorow to blow them up from yesterday.

Mage's combat system IS designed to provide tense encounters against enemies of unknown capabilities where the challenge is not whether you have the power and tactical knowhow to overcome them, but whether you can detective your way into a) finding them first, and b) figuring out what they can do and then defending yourself from it before they kill you in a surprise attack. It's a foregone conclusion that you can blow them up. The question is whether blowing them up might rip a hole in the fabric of reality with your Mage's magical signature all over it.

[ATHATH]

The Middle Finger of Vecna, a reputable (IMO) site filled with good homebrew, ported Binding magic and the Binder base class over to 5e in a free PDF. You might want to check it out.

[sammyp03]

The Middle Finger of Vecna, a reputable (IMO) site filled with good homebrew, ported Binding magic and the Binder base class over to 5e in a free PDF. You might want to check it out.

Ill definitely check it out thanks