Opinions on Scouts

[Jerthanis]

I've seen a decidedly mixed opinion expressed when talking about Scouts from various people I know. Some say it's everything the Ranger should be and more, others say it's got lackluster offense, Some say it's worth dipping a couple levels worth to add onto Barbarian builds or rogue spring attacking builds, but bad on its own. I've seen some references to it in both good and bad fashions from people on this forum and I thought it might be interesting to see what the majority opinion is. What's good about them? What's bad about them? What would you change if you could and are they capable of replacing Rangers/how do they stack up against Rangers?

From a personal opinion, I personally like Rangers better. If you include the Spell compendium, Rangers actually get some pretty awesome spells, their spellcasting stat synergizes with their most important skills and helps make up for their only weak save, their animal companion can actually be as good as a druid animal companion if you choose to burn a feat on it. Full base attack with all martial proficiencies (and shields for some reason and for what that's worth) makes it a good frontliner at the very least because they can Glaive/Greatsword power attack well. They've got almost as many skills and almost every useful skill from the scout list (notable exceptions: Sense motive and Tumble) Also, if your DM is good he'll give you some pointers on selecting your favored enemy so that it will come up, and that damage can actually be fairly respectable. Also, plenty of DMs I know do away with the Trapfinding special ability, saying that other classes beyond rogue can find traps if their search check is high enough, which allows Ranger to fill both a heavyish combat role and a decent skillmonkey role.

My very first character was a Ranger though, and I've been playing them every now and then since, so I may have some bias.

[Zincorium]

I view scouts as a less schizoid take on rogues or rangers. Rogues have a sort of identity crisis where not only can they take on multiple personality archetypes (such as trapsmiths, socialites, hitpersons, etc.) but they have the abilities of all those backgrounds all in one character. Rangers only make sense in D&D, where rangers have been around forever so the world has been built to be compatible with them. Why would so many woodsy characters all be good at wielding multiple weapons? Why do they have spells at all? Shouldn't being granted spells by worshiping nature be better represented by multiclassing into druid?


Scouts are very easily explainable and their abilities, while impressive, make sense as being part of a specific non-supernatural skillset. Personally I've been replacing rogues with scouts or beguilers in my homebrew world.

[Lord Tataraus]

I personally like scouts. They do not replace rangers, but are completely different. Scouts take a completely different style of play. Rangers need full attacks, scouts thrive on move then standard action attacks with greatsword (preferably from a charge from at least 20ft away). I don't see how people think of scouts as archers, they are (to me at least) obviously chargers. The only goods scouts I've seen were chargers and beat the barbarian on damage. A ranger/scout with swift hunter is also a worthy investment if you plan on fighting enemies immune to your skirmish and lots of them. One of the best scouts I saw was an elf ranger (substitution level) 1/scout 5+ with swift hunter, with all favored enemies against undead in a major undead campaign (about 1/2 the enemies).

[Xefas]

I'm having my first experience with a player being a Scout in my current campaign in which everyone is level 8. In previous games, that player had always been a ranger (archery), and then we got our hands on Complete Adventurer and they couldn't wait to make the switch.

As a Scout, they seem to be pulling out a whole ton more damage than they did before, but its...well...really kinda boring. It might just be archery thats the problem, but they just sit in the back the whole encounter strafing back and forth making 1 attack roll and adding up their d6s. She's started bringing other stuff to do to the table during combat -_-. Not that I blame her, I mean, I have a Dread Necromancer whose commanding a whole adventuring party worth of skeletons and allips on his turn, then a cleric who not only tanks whilst switching between flachions, spiked chains, and axes with various different enchantments on each WHILE he's healing and buffing the party, and then a yuan-ti (homebrewed version with 3HD and 2LA) rogue with a trenchcoat full of different poisons and fleshgrinding darts.

And...then there's our scout, who looks bored out of her skull running back and forth shooting once a round. At least as a ranger she got an animal companion and spells to work with. Of course, its nice having two rogues worth of skills in the party. At least one of the two (scout or rogue) always rolls really high on stuff like search, listen, spot, and such.

Admittedly, she probably deals more damage than the rogue and cleric, but I feel awful as a DM because while they all have cool schticks and class features to play with, she's...erm...strafing. Dunno if she's okay with this or whatever, but I'ma talk to her the next game session =/

So, errr...I suppose that was my longwinded way of saying, I think Scouts have superior mechanics in terms of damage output and skill use, but are hella boring to play as.

[Roog]

And...then there's our scout, who looks bored out of her skull running back and forth shooting once a round.

If you want to make the scout interesting, you need to use the mobility for more than running back and forth to generate damage. Any potentially interesting combat situation should have ways to put that mobility to use.

[Overlard]

The reasons I don't like rangers are their prescribed combat routes (I would have much preferred a wider range of feats) and their spell casting abilities. I wanted a woodsmany type character that used his skill to defeat enemies, not some druid-lite spells to fall back on.

I loved the scout when it came out, it had the feats I wanted, no magic, and more skillpoints to boot. Where it falls down is the one attack per round, and that there's no animal companion, which make them kind of limiting to play in combat. I still prefer them to the ranger though.

[its_all_ogre]

do not dip for a few levels of scout. scouts dip for one level of barb. by level 12 you'll have 60 foot move a round!
tougher than rogues, less MAD (no need for cha) bonus feats, higher initiative (they get bonuses and less MAD more points to put in dex.) less overall damage than a well-played rogue, but more consistent damage.

many rangers do not like the spells, scout replaces them with cool abilities. i like scouts, but they do not replace rogues or rangers entirely.

they also make nasty npc creatures, hit and run baby! hit and run.

oh and more creatures are immune to sneak attack damage than skirmish (high level class members with uncanny dodge for example)

[PlatinumJester]

Personally I think they're are slightly lacking and useless. They're a cross between a ranger and a rogue which is a bit stupid since one is used for stealth and the ohter used mainly for melee.

[Droodle]

If you make an archery based scout, you'll be making more than one attack per round. Manyshot and Greater Manyshot are standard actions. n The scout is one of the best multi-class choices available for the Ranger, too. With the swift hunter feat, the scout's skirmish and the Ranger's favored enemy are each progressed by taking levels in the other class....and skirmish applies to all the Ranger's favored enemies......even if they are immune to critical hits. An archery based Scout 3/Ranger 17 with swift hunter is superior to a straight Ranger in every way.

[horseboy]

A friend of mine has a 1/2 orc barbarian/scout/dread commando (with boots of speed no less). I've seen him literally run all the way across a map and smack something dead. He's also the only person in the party (traditionally) to take damage.

[Fax Celestis]

The problem with scouts is that Skirmish is a subpar source of extra damage.

[Ramza00]

Barb 1/scout 3/swashbuckler 3/rogue 13

Swift Ambusher stack rogue and scout levels for skrimish (thus 4d6 skirmish)
Daring Outlaw swashbuckler and rogue levels stack for grace, dodge bonuses, and sneak attack (7d6 sneak attack)
Neraph's Charge (opponent flat footed if charged, thus sneak attackable)
Lion Totem Barb for Pounce.

[ArmorArmadillo]

The problem with scouts is that Skirmish is a subpar source of extra damage.
I've always seen Skirmish as the Vermouth of bonus damage; it's only sub par straight, and requires some sort of mixer to make it work. But, once it has it it can work really well.

A Halfling Scout 7/Master Thrower 1 with the palm throw ability, letting you double attacks with small weapons; plus the feat from Complete scoundrel that lets you add an extra d6 if you move 20 ft., and after moving twenty feat you can throw two darts, each at a +2 to hit (Small and Halfling Throw bonus) and doing 2d3+6d6 (for the two darts). Up it to Master Thrower 5 and you'll hit with Touch Attacks.

Still, I can imagine a rogue build that would do it better; but I think Scout has potential.

[Fax Celestis]

I've always seen Skirmish as the Vermouth of bonus damage; it's only sub par straight, and requires some sort of mixer to make it work. But, once it has it it can work really well.

Wow. That's an excellent comparison.

Of course, this makes Sneak Attack into rum, you know.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Wow. That's an excellent comparison.

Of course, this makes Sneak Attack into rum, you know.
And Arcane magic is Guinness;
Always the best and requires no mixing.

[Fax Celestis]

And Arcane magic is Guinness;
Always the best and requires no mixing.

I think our metaphor has hit a snag. After all, mixing Guinness and rum is a bad idea, and the Arcane Trickster does it all the time.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I think our metaphor has hit a snag. After all, mixing Guinness and rum is a bad idea, and the Arcane Trickster does it all the time.

I suppose it had to at some point; and it's best I didn't push it all the way to "Hexblades are a Cocktail Onion"

[Droodle]

The problem with scouts is that Skirmish is a subpar source of extra damage.I don't know about that. Let's examine a few feats.

First of all, there's swift hunter. The scout is now able to apply precision damage to far more opponents than a rogue can, and his ranger and scout levels stack for determining how much.

Next, improved skirmish. At level 20, our Ranger/Scout is now able to inflict 7d6 points of precision damage every round. Since he's only taken crit immune creatures for favored enemies, he can apply this damage to constructs, undead, evil outsiders, oozes elementals.....

Add in Greater Many shot. Now the scout can apply skirmish damage to everyone he hits.....every round.

Finally, add in Ranged Skirmisher. Now the scout can apply 7d6 precision damage to almost any target, each and every round, from as far as 60 feet. This beats any sneak attack based archery build hands down.

[Fax Celestis]

I don't know about that. Let's examine a few feats.

First of all, there's swift hunter. The scout is now able to apply precision damage to far more opponents than a rogue can, and his ranger and scout levels stack for determining how much.

Next, improved skirmish. At level 20, our Ranger/Scout is now able to inflict 7d6 points of precision damage every round. Since he's only taken crit immune creatures for favored enemies, he can apply this damage to constructs, undead, evil outsiders, oozes elementals.....

Add in Greater Many shot. Now the scout can apply skirmish damage to everyone he hits.....every round.

Finally, add in Ranged Skirmisher. Now the scout can apply 7d6 precision damage to almost any target, each and every round, from as far as 60 feet. This beats any sneak attack based archery build hands down.

Yes, yes. That's a very specialized build that didn't even work before January. Further, it requires you to be able to move 20' every turn, hopefully without provoking AoOs--because god help you, your HP isn't that hot, and neither is your AC. Finally, you're relying on missile weapons, a widely-accepted subpar weapon, since it's so easily defeated by common spells.

[Droodle]

Yes, yes. That's a very specialized build that didn't even work before January. Further, it requires you to be able to move 20' every turn, hopefully without provoking AoOs--because god help you, your HP isn't that hot, and neither is your AC.Tumble is a class skill.
Finally, you're relying on missile weapons, a widely-accepted subpar weapon, since it's so easily defeated by common spells.I'm actually assuming that he's a Ranger 17 with only 3 levels of scout. If he has to melee, he'll have both the HP, the spells, and the BAB to pull it off. But, yeah, he'd have been screwed before January.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I don't know about that. Let's examine a few feats.

First of all, there's swift hunter. The scout is now able to apply precision damage to far more opponents than a rogue can, and his ranger and scout levels stack for determining how much.

Next, improved skirmish. At level 20, our Ranger/Scout is now able to inflict 7d6 points of precision damage every round. Since he's only taken crit immune creatures for favored enemies, he can apply this damage to constructs, undead, evil outsiders, oozes elementals.....

Add in Greater Many shot. Now the scout can apply skirmish damage to everyone he hits.....every round.

Finally, add in Ranged Skirmisher. Now the scout can apply 7d6 precision to almost any target, each and every round, from as far as 60 feet. This beats any sneak attack based archery build hands down.
With Rapidshot, haste, and improved invisibility, easily available at level 20, the archery rogue, from 30 ft. or less, attacks 4 times, doing 10d6 bonus damage each. Throw in potions of Vinestrike, Gravestrike, and Golemstrike and you can sneak attack pretty much anything.

One of the big problems with Skirmish damage is that movement, although easy, restricts your options heavily in terms of actually making your attacks.

But, I do agree that with a few careful feats, or the build you just mentioned, Skirmish can become very usable.

[Arbitrarity]

So, the immortal call? "Play a wizard!"

Nah, j/k :smalltongue:


But yeah, wind wall is broken. Admittedly, however, it's not the most commonly encountered thing, and your mobility allows you to run through it, around it, etc.

Movement isn't a problem without AOO's, seeing as you have tumble. Furthermore, your damage is 10 less than an equivalent rogue per hit, but applicable to essentially everything, and with much greater mobility.

On the other hand, each hit is a bit iffy, and as we all know, arguing with Fax is silly :smallbiggrin:

And you're really darn squishy.

[Fax Celestis]

Riposte (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), on the other hand, I like that.

[Droodle]

With Rapidshot, haste, and improved invisibility, easily available at level 20, the archery rogue, from 30 ft. or less, attacks 4 times, doing 10d6 bonus damage each. Throw in potions of Vinestrike, Gravestrike, and Golemstrike and you can sneak attack pretty much anything.
In round one. The scout can use skirmish damage the whole fight. He doesn't need to be invisible, hidden, concealed, or flanking. He isn't shut down by uncanny dodge, he doesn't need to win initiative, and he only needs to spend one feat to apply his skirmish to multiple targets, and when he uses skirmish against those favored enemies, the damage isn't halved.

[its_all_ogre]

generally less squishy than a pure rogue, as you have less mad you get more points to put in con or dex to absorb or avoid the damage. slight problem is no imp evasion.
you will also have a higher ac than a rogue and no need to enter melee for a flank option.
higher ac cause you can use the same kit and get bonus ac if you move btw.

i think they are a solid enough class, not overpowered compared to a rogue, but i'd argue them as better than ranger personally.
plus you can hips in natural surroundings, which a straight rogue cannot do.

[Rofl-Falafal]

How exactly does skirmish work? I haven't read the Complete Adventure yet, but from the way it's been described, I was under the impression it was like this:

Orc: "He's over there!" *raises shield to guard against over there*
Scout: *moves silently a few feet to the left*
Orc: "Wait, now he's over there?!" *thunk*

That's where the bonuses come from, if I'm not mistaken. Well, what about oozes or plants or constructs? They can't actually see you, so it shouldn't matter where you are in relation to them since they won't try to guard any differently. Or what if the target is behind a wall and you had to use Skirmish to move around it and get a shot at him? He didn't know you were there to begin with, and he wasn't guarding against you, so there's nothing to take advantage of other than his surprise (which any other class would have gotten anyway).

It seems like a confusing class to me, and I gotta say I prefer Ranger (though I may be biased because our party's scout isn't very nice :smallyuk:)

[Droodle]

He needs to move more than a 5 foot step before attacking in order to use skirmish damage. He isn't moving silently, but merely seeking out a better vantage for his shots.

[stainboy]

I've always seen Skirmish as the Vermouth of bonus damage; it's only sub par straight, and requires some sort of mixer to make it work. But, once it has it it can work really well.

There are people out there who drink straight Vermouth? Jesus, why would you do that to yourself?

My impression of scouts is that they'd need more damage to be viable at mid to high levels, once high BAB and multiple attacks start mattering. One attack at +3d6 skirmish damage just doesn't compare to a rogue landing 3 attacks per round with +6d6 sneak attack on every one. The scout's average BAB and and one-attack-per-round combat mechanic is going to hurt their damage, badly.

The problem is mostly that there's no easy feat build to compliment Skirmish. Scouts don't have any equivalent to Two-Weapon Fighting for rogues or Power Attack for barbarians. The closest they can come is a few prestige classes - fighter/scout/dervish, for example - but those prestige classes have BAB and combat feat requirements that require them to dip fighter or ranger.

Give scouts either full BAB, or some easily accessible build that lets them make a full attack while moving, and I'll call them balanced. In their current state though they're subpar, which is a shame because I really like the class in concept.

EDIT: I'm basing my analysis on the assumption that the game is RAW+the Complete books. I've never heard of the scout/ranger character build described above. It sounds interesting, but needing a whole separate book to make scouts viable, and only if they take most of their character levels in ranger, isn't really the same as fixing the class.

[Curmudgeon]

The problem with scouts is that Skirmish is a subpar source of extra damage. This is the core of the problem, which means you need to find a solution. Taking a level of Monk and training with a Sparring Dummy of the Master will let you take 10' steps in place of 5' steps, and suddenly Skirmish becomes a useful ability.

If you can solve this basic problem the Scout is a rewarding class to play. Otherwise it's an exercise in frustration.

[ArmorArmadillo]

:thog:Thog love rocket boots! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a)

[Fax Celestis]

Also try some levels of Elocator, enough to get you the extra 5' step ability. Or try the Sudden Leap maneuver, which lets you jump a distance as a swift action.

[Draz74]

Also try some levels of Elocator, enough to get you the extra 5' step ability. Or try the Sudden Leap maneuver, which lets you jump a distance as a swift action.

Sudden Leap being, by far, the better of the two, because it's a Level 1 Maneuver, easily accessible at low levels with, at most, a one-level dip into a Tome of Battle class.

Heck, if you're willing to go through 7 levels of Elocator to get a double 5-foot step, you might as well get far enough in a Tome of Battle class (instead) to get the 5th-level White Raven stance, Press the Advantage.

Unless it's a Gestalt game, and you're a Scout//Psionic something. In which case, by all means, Elocator is a great option.

[Fax Celestis]

Hm. Swordsage 2/Scout 3/Ranger 15, with Swift Tracker and Zen Archery. Wis to AC, Wis to attack rolls.

[stainboy]

One of my friends did Scout/Psion/Elocator in a game awhile back. It worked reasonably well.

I'd still rather that the scout class be able to stand on its own two feet with no metagaming beyond smart feat selection. When we're talking about scout/fighter/dervish and scout/psion/elocator builds, we're not talking about a fast, stealthy woodsman anymore. If we can't use the scout class to make a viable fast, stealthy woodsman, or if we have to multiclass it to make a viable anything, then the class needs work.

To me the easiest fix would be tacking an attack bonus onto Skirmish equal to the AC bonus. That wouldn't turn scouts into damage machines, but it would let them make proper use of feats that trade attack bonus for more damage, like Power Attack and Manyshot. It would also give them more reason to use skirmish against enemies that are immune to precision-based damage.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, Skirmish also works well with Eldritch Blast.

[Galahad]

If i remember correctly, skirmish is considered "precision damage", meaning that only the first arrow fired gets the extra damage with Manyshot.

[Fax Celestis]

If i remember correctly, skirmish is considered "precision damage", meaning that only the first arrow fired gets the extra damage with Manyshot.

Not with Greater Manyshot.

[tarbrush]

Surely the spring attack/bounding assualt/rapid blitz tree was just made for scouts? Extra non Bab dependant attacks, immunity to a bunch of AoOs and move while attacking. Lots of feats, yes, but well worth it.

[Fax Celestis]

Surely the spring attack/bounding assualt/rapid blitz tree was just made for scouts? Extra non Bab dependant attacks, immunity to a bunch of AoOs and move while attacking. Lots of feats, yes, but well worth it.

The problem with Spring Attack/Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz is that they each require you to attack different targets.

[Arbitrarity]

Too high BAB requirement on rapid blitz, scouts don't have many feats, so 4 feats hurts. Furthermore, those feats generally are weak, as most scouts like to have as many attacks as possible for damaging, and a cap of 2, with skirmish, is weak, compared to other options.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Not with Greater Manyshot.
Hmm...hadn't heard of this.

Go Scout 5/ Master Thrower 1/ Wizard 1
Then, take levels in Unseen Seer (Gives you full caster progression, but more importantly here-Gives you a "Damage Bonus" on Sneak, Sudden, or Skirmish at level 1, and every 3 levels thereafter: faster than normal skirmish damage.
Take that the full 10 levels, which is enough to pick up Manyshot and greater Manyshot; making sure to pick up Improved Skirmish and Quick along the way.

Cast Quickened Truestrike; move 20 feet, and Palm Throw darts with a Three Dart Manyshot; hitting nearly automatically, with 7d6 Skirmish Damage and four darts for a total of 4d4+28d6 Damage.

Rinse and Repeat until you run out of level 5 spell slots; which at Wiz Level 11 with a decent Int should be about 3.

And, at the end, you can cast as an 11th level wizard.

[Droodle]

My impression of scouts is that they'd need more damage to be viable at mid to high levels, once high BAB and multiple attacks start mattering. One attack at +3d6 skirmish damage just doesn't compare to a rogue landing 3 attacks per round with +6d6 sneak attack on every one. The scout's average BAB and and one-attack-per-round combat mechanic is going to hurt their damage, badly.
Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) is in the SRD. There is absolutely no reason for a high level scout to be applying precision damage to less than 3 attacks a round. Even without swift hunter. While the scout may not hit quite as hard as a rogue, the scout will apply skirmish damage to each and every attack he makes.

[Fax Celestis]

Hmm...hadn't heard of this.

Go Scout 5/ Master Thrower 1/ Wizard 1
Then, take levels in Unseen Seer (Gives you full caster progression, but more importantly here-Gives you a "Damage Bonus" on Sneak, Sudden, or Skirmish at level 1, and every 3 levels thereafter: faster than normal skirmish damage.
Take that the full 10 levels, which is enough to pick up Manyshot and greater Manyshot; making sure to pick up Improved Skirmish and Quick along the way.

Cast Quickened Truestrike; move 20 feet, and Palm Throw darts with a Three Dart Manyshot; hitting nearly automatically, with 7d6 Skirmish Damage and four darts for a total of 4d4+28d6 Damage.

Rinse and Repeat until you run out of level 5 spell slots; which at Wiz Level 11 with a decent Int should be about 3.

And, at the end, you can cast as an 11th level wizard.

All well and good but for the fact that manyshot only works with archery, not throw weapons.

[ArmorArmadillo]

All well and good but for the fact that manyshot only works with archery, not throw weapons.

Gah, foiled again. Then just redact it to take out the master thrower level and use a bow. Throw in another level of scout to get the BAB up to 11. You lose one shot, but you still pull 3d8+21d6.

If you can find some way to get full attacks and rapid shot.

[Matthew]

I think our metaphor has hit a snag. After all, mixing Guinness and rum is a bad idea, and the Arcane Trickster does it all the time.

Well... that depends what you mean by bad... Back in my youthful drinking days I would have considered that a perfectly legitimate combination. Of course, in those days I considered Cider to be a reasonable mixer for Whisky (it wasn't), but there you go...

I like Scouts a lot, but I don't care much for Skirmish, never mind the fact that Greater Many Shot straight jackets most builds.

[Bosh]

The problem with scouts is that they suck horrifically at higher levels unless they can get more than one attack off a round and most of the ways they can get extra attacks depend on what other sourcebooks they have on hand (which makes Scout power differ wildly from campaign to campaign) or are cheese (get pounce for a one level dip in barbarian if you use complete champion). A class that needs a specific feat chain or class features from other classes to not suck is not a well-designed class.

Scout can be a fun dip for skill-starved melee builds though, that's what I usually use it for.

[Stephen_E]

Scout does a nice melee with a 1+ level dip into Dervish.
If you have a Psionist around you can even Psychic Reformation all the Dervish prereq feats out that you don't want.

If you can get your DM to houserule something like Swift Hunter to a Skirmish-Scout stacks with Dervish-AC bonus a Scout 10/Dervish 10 looks quite nice.

Stephen

[CrazedGoblin]

Personally I think they're are slightly lacking and useless. They're a cross between a ranger and a rogue which is a bit stupid since one is used for stealth and the other used mainly for melee.

i agree, they seem to be a class that tries to be both and fails so they get given the ability to run around and generate damage

[ClericofPhwarrr]

If you have a Psionist around you can even Psychic Reformation all the Dervish prereq feats out that you don't want.

If you do that, you lose all your Dervish class abilities--if you lose a feat/PrC's prereq's, you lose the use of the feat/PrC (although you retain the PrC's improvements to BAB, saving throws, and HD). Psychic Reformation isn't a good idea here.

[EntilZha]

There's a scout in the campaign I'm doing now, and he's been a key member of the team. He has by far and away the best Listen, Spot, Hide and Move Silently of any of the party, and is deadly with the bow.

[stainboy]

Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) is in the SRD.

So it is. I didn't realize Greater Manyshot was OGL. Thanks.

Unfortunately, to get Greater Manyshot at 9th level the scout either has to dip a level of fighter at 8th level (to take Manyshot with his fighter bonus feat) or the DM has to house-rule that the scout can spend his 8th level bonus feat on Manyshot. Much simpler way to fix the class though.

[Matthew]

Personally I think they're are slightly lacking and useless. They're a cross between a ranger and a rogue which is a bit stupid since one is used for stealth and the other used mainly for melee.



i agree, they seem to be a class that tries to be both and fails so they get given the ability to run around and generate damage

I wouldn't tend to agree with that assessment. However, I would agree that the Skirmish Class Feature was a poorly thought out mechanic.

[stainboy]

I rather like the skirmish mechanic. I'm a fiend for interesting terrain, so a highly mobile character works well in my games.

I just think it needs some mechanical tweak to make skirmish attacks hit harder. Either buff the scout's offensive power, or give scouts a couple readily-accessible feat builds that buff their offensive power, and you have an awesome class.

It sounds like the feat builds exist now, sort of. The Improved Manyshot build sounds promising, with that one little tweak to make it available at 9th level. I'm not familiar with Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, or Swift Hunter though. What bookare they from?

[Fax Celestis]

It sounds like the feat builds exist now, sort of. The Improved Manyshot build sounds promising, with that one little tweak to make it available at 9th level. I'm not familiar with Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, or Swift Hunter though. What bookare they from?

They're in the PHB-II.

[Mike_G]

The Scout is a good skillmonkey. His job is stealth, and spotting the enemy firts. Even if he's subpar in melee, much like a buff caster, if his scouting gives the party an advatage, it's better for everyone.

Th flavor is better than the Ranger, which is just a confused hodgepodge, which is why I like the Scout better for that role. The lack of BAB is the only weak piint.

And in actual use, Skirmish isn't that bad. Skirmish paired with the much maligned Spring Attack lets the Scout do decent skirmish damage each round and stay out of harms way much of the time. He isn't the tank, so the tank should be the one fixing the enemy in melee, and the scout Skirmishes in, much like the Rogue flanks in. The increased move, plus Mobility and Tumble lets the Scout get past the front line and do Skirmish damage to squishy enemy caster types behind the lines.

As far as the one attack vs full attack thing goes, first attacks tend to hit. Second attacks, especially for a 3/4 BAB class, aren't such a sure bet, and third attacks almost never hit. Giving up these low probability attacks for an extra handful of damage isn't so bad.

[Droodle]

So it is. I didn't realize Greater Manyshot was OGL. Thanks.

Unfortunately, to get Greater Manyshot at 9th level the scout either has to dip a level of fighter at 8th level (to take Manyshot with his fighter bonus feat) or the DM has to house-rule that the scout can spend his 8th level bonus feat on Manyshot. Much simpler way to fix the class though.It's not like the scout is really suffering by just using manyshot for a few levels or plinking away with rapid shot. Ranger archers do just fine without precision damage....and a level 8 scout attacks just as many times as a level 8 ranger.

[Jerthanis]

A lot of good responses, and I've got to admit, with Greater Manyshot and Swift Tracker, you've got a solid build utilizing Skirmish to great effect even at high levels. I maintain a slight preference for Rangers still, simply because they're decent alone, and each supplement adds to their options if not specifically to their raw power, where Scouts seem a tad weak alone, but get much better with the extra options.

Still, I guess the potential for expert woodsmen who have neither anger management problems, nor wolves following them around, nor are part of a religion of hippie tree-huggers, is definitely something that needs to be around, and Scout does that as well as one could hope, and with the right feats and so on, doesn't even suck. Which is more than you can say for most of the OTHER classes in Complete series. (Samurai, Warlock, Swashbuckler, Hexblade... lots of the Complete base classes leave something to be desired)

[Stephen_E]

If you do that, you lose all your Dervish class abilities--if you lose a feat/PrC's prereq's, you lose the use of the feat/PrC (although you retain the PrC's improvements to BAB, saving throws, and HD). Psychic Reformation isn't a good idea here.

Actually unless they've said this in a FAQ in the last year or less you're wrong.

The DMG (the original source) has no such requirement and stresses twice that you must specifically meet the prereqs to take the 1st level. The SRD also doesn't. This is a change from the 3.0 DMG. The 2 Splat books I'm aware of that have the restriction you mention are Comp Warr and Comp Arcane, and are exact repeats of the 3.0 DMG. Can anyone say "someone did a cut and paste without checking the rules had changed" (note the other splats ectre I've checked through - ECS, Comp Divine, Races of Stone, don't have the restriction for later levels either).

In short it is entirely RAW legal to Psychic Reform away the prereqs for a prestige class after taking the 1st level. It is cheesy and your DM might "rule 0" it, but it works RAW. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen

[Akennedy]

This is why we all play Fax's class, the Hunter...
*I would link it, but I'm too lazy*

[its_all_ogre]

where is the feat that enables you to stack skirmish with ranger favoured enemies? i searched through phb2 and comp adventurer and could not find it anywhere.

another note that i find amusing about scouts is that they can actually lose their mobility by swamping the players with tons of low hd creatures!
as soon as there is not room to move they cannot use skirmish!
if you have an optimising group this sort of attack can be very frustrating too, mainly because from an optimising point of view few spellcasters tak AoE spells and few take great cleave. you also get to flank all the pcs and then stab them up.
i've done this once or twice and the fear in their eyes at level 6 when they realised they were getting whupped by 20 level 3 warriors(ftr2 psywar1) was great! (all took toughness as feats and human so 18 extra hps! and vigour to round it off nicely!!!!)

[stainboy]

It's not like the scout is really suffering by just using manyshot for a few levels or plinking away with rapid shot. Ranger archers do just fine without precision damage....and a level 8 scout attacks just as many times as a level 8 ranger.

Improved Manyshot for a scout is really good, good enough to be worth taking Rapid Shot to qualify for it. If you dip one level of fighter, as your 8th character level, you can get it at 9th level. Otherwhise you have to wait until 12th level. I want straight Scout with good feat selection to be a good build, without relying on cheese like that. Hence I want to eliminate the incentive to dip your 8th level into fighter.

Besides, I think it's pretty silly that scouts can't take manyshot with their bonus feats. They can spend bonus feats on Point Blank Shot and Precise shot. I don't think this is a balance decision, I think the problem is simply that saying "these bonus feats can be spent on archery feats" isn't proper d20 lawyerspeak, and leaving manyshot off the list was an oversight. I think it's entirely reasonable to rule that a scout can spend bonus feats on any archery feat in the game, including manyshot.

[Droodle]

I think it's pretty silly that scouts can't take manyshot with their bonus feats. They can spend bonus feats on Point Blank Shot and Precise shot. I don't think this is a balance decision, I think the problem is simply that saying "these bonus feats can be spent on archery feats" isn't proper d20 lawyerspeak, and leaving manyshot off the list was an oversight. I think it's entirely reasonable to rule that a scout can spend bonus feats on any archery feat in the game, including manyshot.Agreed. I was really only trying to point out that something like "Oh, my God, my entire build has been de-railed because I can't get manyshot at level 8!" would be a bit of an over-reaction. I think Manyshot and Greater Manyshot should be Scout bonus feats, as well.

[Matthew]

where is the feat that enables you to stack skirmish with ranger favoured enemies? i searched through phb2 and comp adventurer and could not find it anywhere.

It is called Swift Hunter and can be found in the Complete Scoundrel on page 81.