Effects of incredibly high mental stats?

[Schattenbach]

When I'm refering to incredibly high mental stats, I'm talking about mental stats in the ~30/40/50/60+ range.

As far as I can tell, there are no particular rules for that and the descriptions for that are pretty vague (and often inconsistent when compared with each other) as well as to in what way those mental stats actually affect the mental capabilities of the characters. As far as I can tell, characters are still limited to things they can do in that they have to make skill checks (or Int, Wis or Cha checks for cases in which they apply ... which is pretty rare as in most cases, it's usually some skill check that applys), so the gross assumption that int 30 characters are some kind of incredible supergenius that can answer more or less any question instantly doesn't seem to apply here (though they do have an easier time making skill checks by properly connecting things together and their brain is able to memorize quite a bit more information) as in that regard, things don't scale all that well beyond a certain point (its also questionable if someone could make full use of such high mental stats without the use of something like hypercognition) and intelligence shouldn't affect everything intelligence-related equaly (as most have their strong and weak points in that regard, I guess). High Wisdom seems easier in that regard as incredibly strong instinct and/or intuition and/or stability of the mind as well as other things along these lines might be among the most common higher-level manifestions of that. Same for high charisma, I guess, as its more or less a combination score of "looks" as well as "force of personality".

High mental ability scores likely also affect how one views the world and such, so depending on how one interprets them, they could make roleplaying any creature with high mental stats quite irritating.

So - when personal experience with roleplaying such high scores into account as well as considering the setting specific NPCs with high mental scores as well as other monsters ... the epic level handbook, for example, has a bunch of those, as well as some descriptions about their intellect which often isn't as impressive as their supposedly incredibly high mental stats would suggest ... with high mental ability scores - a few opinions as well as suggestions in regard to how to roleplay such high scores would be helpful. Up until now, I've usually used the "such high scores don't apply to everything equaly" (as quite a bit of , for example, the Int-based processing power is focused on properly processing magic/psionics/etc. and/or memorizing stuff/learning languages, etc.) interpretation thus far, but I'm interested if there are some other smooth solutions for this issue.

Thanks in advance.

[SecretlyaFish]

When I'm refering to incredibly high mental stats, I'm talking about mental stats in the ~30/40/50/60+ range.

As far as I can tell, there are no particular rules for that and the descriptions for that are pretty vague (and often inconsistent when compared with each other) as well as to in what way those mental stats actually affect the mental capabilities of the characters. As far as I can tell, characters are still limited to things they can do in that they have to make skill checks (or Int, Wis or Cha checks for cases in which they apply ... which is pretty rare as in most cases, it's usually some skill check that applys), so the gross assumption that int 30 characters are some kind of incredible supergenius that can answer more or less any question instantly doesn't seem to apply here (though they do have an easier time making skill checks by properly connecting things together and their brain is able to memorize quite a bit more information) as in that regard, things don't scale all that well beyond a certain point (its also questionable if someone could make full use of such high mental stats without the use of something like hypercognition) and intelligence shouldn't affect everything intelligence-related equaly (as most have their strong and weak points in that regard, I guess). High Wisdom seems easier in that regard as incredibly strong instinct and/or intuition and/or stability of the mind as well as other things along these lines might be among the most common higher-level manifestions of that. Same for high charisma, I guess, as its more or less a combination score of "looks" as well as "force of personality".

High mental ability scores likely also affect how one views the world and such, so depending on how one interprets them, they could make roleplaying any creature with high mental stats quite irritating.

So - when personal experience with roleplaying such high scores into account as well as considering the setting specific NPCs with high mental scores as well as other monsters ... the epic level handbook, for example, has a bunch of those, as well as some descriptions about their intellect which often isn't as impressive as their supposedly incredibly high mental stats would suggest ... with high mental ability scores - a few opinions as well as suggestions in regard to how to roleplay such high scores would be helpful. Up until now, I've usually used the "such high scores don't apply to everything equaly" (as quite a bit of , for example, the Int-based processing power is focused on properly processing magic/psionics/etc. and/or memorizing stuff/learning languages, etc.) interpretation thus far, but I'm interested if there are some other smooth solutions for this issue.

Thanks in advance.

Well, I would say a very high wisdom score and intelligence score doesn't need to mean that they are actual genius's. It could just represent strength of will or the natural ability to problem solve or think of an idea. There could be sages with 20 intelligence and wisdom that know far more than that creature, but its ability to work through things that require mental strength is greater than the sages, as its ability to learn and retain knowledge. A Balor for example is only 2 points off the Pit Fiend in intelligence and wisdom, meaning, its more or less the same in terms of the strategies it can come up with, the alignment characteristics make the biggest difference.

But lets compare a pit fiend who has lived in the 9 hells for 2000 years, and literally advanced from lemure to that rank, knows MUCH of the world etc, to a Great Wyrm Pristmatic Dragon who has lived its entire life in a 1000-1000km area on some distant plane, and sleeps most of the time. Is it going to be as knowledgeable or clever in practice as the Pit Fiend? Certainly not, but given time and effort it can of course become so due to its high statistics. Just my take on it though I hope it was helpful in some way.

[Geddy2112]

The pathfinder description of ability scores (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores/)is pretty handy. It only goes up to 30ish for each, but it does provide an example of a creature with said score, and what that would be.

For 32-33 intellgence, a creature is described simply as having "unfathomable intellect"

The highest for wisdom is 24-25, which is described as "Nearly prescient, able to see potential results far beyond that which pure logic would reveal"

For charisma, 24-25 is "Renowned for wit, personality, and/or looks"

Personally, I would think that 30+ intelligence starts to get into the range of a supercomputer. 30+ wisdom is starting to get into divination level prescience; not totally accurate but able to somewhat reliably predict outcomes and events. At 30+ charisma, a creature is literally overbearing in personality, ego, or magnetism-the kind that you could feel just being near.

[SecretlyaFish]

The pathfinder description of ability scores (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores/)is pretty handy. It only goes up to 30ish for each, but it does provide an example of a creature with said score, and what that would be.

For 32-33 intellgence, a creature is described simply as having "unfathomable intellect"

The highest for wisdom is 24-25, which is described as "Nearly prescient, able to see potential results far beyond that which pure logic would reveal"

For charisma, 24-25 is "Renowned for wit, personality, and/or looks"

Personally, I would think that 30+ intelligence starts to get into the range of a supercomputer. 30+ wisdom is starting to get into divination level prescience; not totally accurate but able to somewhat reliably predict outcomes and events. At 30+ charisma, a creature is literally overbearing in personality, ego, or magnetism-the kind that you could feel just being near.

I disagree unless that character/monster is stated as being such. Everything in life has diminishing returns. 30+ intelligence could mean only 5% capability above someone with 25 intelligence, but that 5% can go a long ways used properly. Its up to the DM obviously, but I don't subscribe to the train of thought that intelligence is this limitless construct and with enough of it you can do anything etc.

Something that comes to mind is Batman. I used to like Batman but now I dislike him more than Superman. A Batman fanboy will say "but he's so smart, if he had prep time he could beat anyone!" They keep boosting that intellect and apparently he's just limitless in scope of what he can do. Its rather annoying and I don't like using that. Now, if you are talking say some sort of space cosmic thing that comes out of a capsule that your PC's discover, and its got 30s-40s intelligence, its going to perhaps be unthinkably smart, but in the same way that say, someone with autism can be very intelligent and articulate with a certain subject but then despite that great intelligence, be unable to see the value in another opinion or way of doing things in that subject of theirs. It can have its downfalls.

Great wisdom should have absolutely nothing to do with predictions etc at a supernatural level. Those are usually supernatural abilities for a reason. A character with very high wisdom might have an enormous breadth of understanding in how someone feels, and their emotions, and could empathize with near any creature. This could be expressed in many different ways.

Charisma, possibly it could be your description, but a creature with 30+ charisma could just have an unshakable sense of itself in the extreme, despite say have no ability to communicate. I like to try and think a bit outside the box and make this a little more easy to play. Not a human being on earth could properly roleplay a 30-40 intelligence creature using comic book superhero descriptions of such things. It can also get cheesy when a DM playing said creature clearly can't play it at that level and needs to resort to "well it thought of that move already so that doesn't work". Deus Ex Machina being used because you don't have the ability to properly play something isn't fun for most players I think.

[Segev]

Batman is actually more an example of high Wis than high Int. He's smart, don't get me wrong, but his intuition and ability to read people is what's really off the charts. There's a reason the "Batman Gambit" is named for him: he plans for what you're going to do because he knows better than you what you will do when the time comes. Often, he knows it so well that you'll do it even moments after he tells you he predicted you would, because at that point, it's what you want to do THAT BADLY.

[Red Fel]

Batman is actually more an example of high Wis than high Int. He's smart, don't get me wrong, but his intuition and ability to read people is what's really off the charts. There's a reason the "Batman Gambit" is named for him: he plans for what you're going to do because he knows better than you what you will do when the time comes. Often, he knows it so well that you'll do it even moments after he tells you he predicted you would, because at that point, it's what you want to do THAT BADLY.

"Your next line is..." - Joseph Joestar, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure

Joseph is this type of character. He has the intuition (Wis) about his opponent to figure out what they're about to say, and the force of personality (Cha) to beat them to it, giving them a momentary distraction that allows him to get the upper hand in battle.

[Remuko]

Batman is actually more an example of high Wis than high Int. He's smart, don't get me wrong, but his intuition and ability to read people is what's really off the charts. There's a reason the "Batman Gambit" is named for him: he plans for what you're going to do because he knows better than you what you will do when the time comes. Often, he knows it so well that you'll do it even moments after he tells you he predicted you would, because at that point, it's what you want to do THAT BADLY.

That sounds like Joseph Joestar from Part 2 of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. His whole schtick was telling people "Next thing you're going to do/say is [X]" and they would do so everytime moments later.

Edit: Ninja'd by Red Fel. Rip.

[Segev]

I've seen clips of that, but when I tried to watch the first JoJo series, it just...rubbed me the wrong way. I don't mind over-the-top, but something about it landed in an uncanny valley where I didn't find it humorous but couldn't take it seriously, and so it was grating rather than fun.

[SecretlyaFish]

Batman is actually more an example of high Wis than high Int. He's smart, don't get me wrong, but his intuition and ability to read people is what's really off the charts. There's a reason the "Batman Gambit" is named for him: he plans for what you're going to do because he knows better than you what you will do when the time comes. Often, he knows it so well that you'll do it even moments after he tells you he predicted you would, because at that point, it's what you want to do THAT BADLY.

I suppose that's fair. I like Batman in his own universe the most, the one where superman and metropolis and all those other super powered guys don't exist. Batman fights criminals and deals with the same sorts of people and same villain's on a regular basis, but saying that ability can extend to anyone and everything making him be able to stop anyone and anything just gets silly. But yeah my point with ability scores is they can be many things and if a superhero ability is what you want to take away from 30+ intelligence/wisdom that is all well and good, but keep in mind that's going to be very difficult to play properly, since you can't predict what the players will do. Still love all the ideas and opinions and views on it, and if someone could play it that well, I'd love to see that kind of roleplaying and intelligence in action, since I certainly don't have it :D

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the help thus far.

Hm ... as there's some discussion about the characteristics of the mental ability scores, it seems like its fine to look at their SRD description and think about how to interpret that.

From the SRD ...


Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It’s also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills.

An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3.

Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score.

Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.

Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

I don't think that INT, WIS and CHA scale in any way faster than the extremly fast scaling of, say, the carrying capacity. But if we do use that as the ceiling for those values (we likely shouldn't, but ... well) and assume 10 is the most average value around, then things start to accelerate quite a bit once the values go past 30 ...


1 10,00 ,10x
2 20,00 ,20x
3 30,00 ,30x
4 40,00 ,40x
5 50,00 ,50x
6 60,00 ,60x
7 70,00 ,70x
8 80,00 ,80x
9 90,00 ,90x
10 100,00 1,00x
11 115,00 1,15x
12 130,00 1,30x
13 150,00 1,50x
14 175,00 1,75x
15 200,00 2,00x
16 230,00 2,30x
17 260,00 2,60x
18 300,00 3,00x
19 350,00 3,50x
20 400,00 4,00x
21 460,00 4,60x
22 520,00 5,20x
23 600,00 6,00x
24 700,00 7,00x
26 920,00 9,20x
27 1.040,00 10,40x
28 1.200,00 12,00x
29 1.400,00 14,00x
30 1.600,00 16,00x
31 1.840,00 18,40x
32 2.080,00 20,80x
33 2.400,00 24,00x
34 2.800,00 28,00x
35 3.200,00 32,00x
36 3.680,00 36,80x
37 4.160,00 41,60x
38 4.800,00 48,00x
39 5.600,00 56,00x
40 6.400,00 64,00x
41 7.360,00 73,60x
42 8.320,00 83,20x
43 9.600,00 96,00x
44 11.200,00 112,00x
45 12.800,00 128,00x
46 14.720,00 147,20x
47 16.640,00 166,40x
48 19.200,00 192,00x
49 22.400,00 224,00x
50 25.600,00 256,00x
51 29.440,00 294,40x
52 33.280,00 332,80x
53 38.400,00 384,00x
54 44.800,00 448,00x
55 51.200,00 512,00x
56 58.880,00 588,80x
57 66.560,00 665,60x
58 76.800,00 768,00x
59 89.600,00 896,00x
60 102.400,00 1.024,00x
61 117.760,00 1.177,60x
62 133.120,00 1.331,20x
63 153.600,00 1.536,00x
64 179.200,00 1.792,00x
65 204.800,00 2.048,00x
66 235.520,00 2.355,20x
67 266.240,00 2.662,40x
68 307.200,00 3.072,00x
69 358.400,00 3.584,00x
70 409.600,00 4.096,00x
71 471.040,00 4.710,40x
72 532.480,00 5.324,80x
73 614.400,00 6.144,00x
74 716.800,00 7.168,00x
75 819.200,00 8.192,00x
76 942.080,00 9.420,80x
77 1.064.960,00 10.649,60x


As far as I could tell thus far, the creature entries etc. aren't exactly consistent as far as this issue is concerned, but maybe they could serve as reference, anyway.

Here are some examples as reference ...

# (Reasonably helpful examples regarding setting specific GMCPs/NPCs ... the stats are without +6/+12 or higher ability score boost items; some of them, like Szass Tam, supposedly
have easy to pretty much every non-artifact item as well as a bunch of artifacts)
Elminster (Lvl 35) ... Int 27 (includes +4 inherent bonus), Wis 18, Cha 17 (Forgotten Realms Canon Sue)
Storm Silverhand (Lvl 28) ... Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 18
Halaster Blackcloak (Lvl 30) ... Int 24 (includes +3 inherent bonus), Wis 22 (includes +3 inherent bonus), Cha 10 (Psycho)
Simbul (Lvl 32 Sorcerer with Wizard dips) ... Int 20, Wis 15, Cha 20 (Queen, etc.)
Szass Tam (Lvl 29 Lich) ... Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 20 ("one of the most cunning and intelligent beings in all Faerûn")
Khelben Arunsun (Lvl 27) ... Int 22, Wis 20 (includes +4 inherent bonus), Cha 15
Alustriel (Lvl 24) ... Int 20, Wis 17, Cha 17
Manshoon (Lvl 25) ... Int 23 (includes +3 inherent bonus), Wis 16, Cha 19 (Evil Mastermind)
Iyraclea (Lvl 25) ... Int 14, Wis 28, Cha 16

Eclavdra (Lvl 23 Drow) ... Int 17, Wis 26, Cha 12
Mordenkainen (Lvl 27) ... Int 27, Wis 15, Cha 18 (guy that messes up too much)

#

Demilich (Lvl 21 Demilich, so huge racial boni to mental stats) ... Int 39 (with +6 headband included, so its actually only 33), Wis 24, Cha 20

### ### ### Epic Monster References from the Epic Level Handbook
Old Prismatic Dragon (Lvl 58) ... Int 48, Wis 49, Cha 48
Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon (Lvl 79) ... Int 64, Wis 65, Cha 64
Gibbering Orb (Lvl 27) ... Int 40, Wis 24, Cha 22 ("is actually quite intelligent." "In some ways, it functions like a hive mind, with the perceptions and capabilities of multiple creatures locked inside its body." "It can speak all languages, and[...]" etc)
Gloom (Lvl 25) ... Int 26, Wis 25, Cha 30
Ha-Naga (Lvl 20) ... Int 35, Wis 31, Cha 36 (Intellect and such isn't particulary mentioned in its entry ... only that they're powerful naga lords often worshiped as gods by their lesser kin)
Hoary Hunter (Lvl 46) ... Int 31, Wis 23, Cha 26 (Intellect and such isn't particulary mentioned in its entry ...)
Leshay ... (Lvl 50) ... Int 33, Wis 23, Cha 47 (supposedly really good at learning languages incredibly quickly)
Mu Spore (Lvl 35) ... Int 18, Wis 28, Cha 28
Brain Collector (Lvl 32) ... Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 17
Paragon Mind Flayer (Lvl 8) ... Int 34, Wis 32, Cha 32 (Elder Brains want their Brains; they sometimes lead Mind Flayer empires)
Sirrush (Lvl 40) ... Int 35, Wis 38, Cha 28 ("Sirrushes hunt anything, but specialize in hunting dragons (though they are intelligent, and can ascertain quickly if a particular dragon is too tough for them).")
Three-Headed Sirrush (Lvö 45) ... Int 40, Wis 43, Cha 33 (Note: Mental ability scores and level increased by 5 each after adding those two additional heads)
Black Slaad (Lvl 29) ... Int 29, Wis 30, Cha 31
Elder Titan (Lvl 70) ... Int 33, Wis 37, Cha 26 (gets quite a bit of Hype - more than most other listed creatures here, in fact - for its intellectual capabilities, but as it is
level 70 at the very least and spends thousands of years studying, with no break at that, I guess that hype has some justification due to the sheer amount of skillpoints and feats 70
levels of Outsider HD provide on their own ... can also speak all languages due to that epic Polygot feat with its 5 languages and 25 INT requirments, I guess, but that's pretty much
the last listed feat in its entry, anyway)
Elder Treant (Lvl 50) ... Int 19, Wis 33, Cha 35
Uvuudaum (Lvl 38) ... Int 42, Wis 38, Cha 46 (base version, advances by class levels by default so stronger ones might be much more troublesome ... one of the few monsters to have
multiple Epic Spells as SLAs ... Far Realm-esque Lord among lesser beings there)

I would like to hear some more opinions about this.

Thanks in advance.

[jedipilot24]

http://https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Players-Guide-Sorcery-Studios/dp/1588469611 (www.amazon.com/Advanced-Players-Guide-Sorcery-Studios/dp/1588469611)

This book has, among other things, Tragic Flaws that provide a drawback and some role-playing ideas for characters with stats over 18.

There are also Heroic Merits that reward having stats below 10.

[Karl Aegis]

You can see the invisible guy picking their nose in high definition.

[Florian]

High mental ability scores likely also affect how one views the world and such, so depending on how one interprets them, they could make roleplaying any creature with high mental stats quite irritating.

High mental stats cover potential, nothing else. A 30+ INT creature would have the potential to be some kind of genius, but still need training and schooling to put it to use, like acquiring some kind of knowledge and then be brilliant at it. Add the fact that you actually need to be trained in some skills to be able to use them, which should help form a clear picture here.