Divine Monk?

[DM7581]

Hey all. I've always like the concept of the divine monk. In 3.5 we had the divine fist. Heck, even in 2e, there was a Monk build out of the cleric class. I am very curious as to why this has not come up in discussions or even UA yet.

Inspiration here would be the monk/master monk class out of the shining force series, as well as others. I am actually running a shining force I game right now that I may use this in...

There are 2 obvious ways to make this happen. As well as a few non-obvious.

In making the divine monk a monk path, we can treat it like a 1/3 caster similar to the EK or AT. I would not necessarily limit their spell selections, though, but they would still be limited to spells known. Easy fix 1. Now the Monk is loaded with other special abilities, so I am wondering how this might balance out.

The second intuitive fix would be to model it after the way of the four elements is built, but sub in healing/clerical spell list. This seems much more "balanced," but a lot weaker than the 1/3 caster version. Considering that divine spells are typically deemed "weaker" than Arcane, I am not sure if this would be a fair comparison to the more offensive powers offered by the way of the four elements Monk.

Lastly, we can always pick up magic initiate and/or multi class, but I am looking for a full divine fist-type class and am not into multiclassing. I am typically the DM in my games, and as a seasoned DM and player (25+ years), even when I don't DM, I typically work with the DM in any homebrew designs.

But, I like to hear what you all might think. Thoughts?

[Specter]

As we speak, I am working on a homebrew Sacred Fist archetype. Will post it here when it's done.

[Specter]

WAY OF THE SACRED FIST
A sacred fist is a monk who attuned himself to higher powers, which in turn granted him magical powers similar to a priest. These monks have forsworn the use of weapons. They consider their bodies and minds gifts from the deities, and they believe that not developing those gifts to their fullest potential is a sin. Whatever their true beliefs are, Sacred fists are strong in faith, will, and body.

SPELLCASTING
When you reach 3rd level, you augment your martial prowess with the ability to cast spells.
Cantrips. You learn two cantrips of your choice from the cleric spell list. You learn an additional cleric cantrip of your choice at 10th level.
Spell Slots. The Sacred Fist Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
For example, if you prepared the 1st-level spell bless and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast bless using either slot.
Preparing and Casting Spells. You prepare the list of spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + 1/3 of your monk level (rounded up). You can change your list of prepared spells after you finish a long rest.

Monk Level Cantrips Known 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
3rd______________2______2___—__—__—
4th______________2______3___—__—__—
5th______________2______3___—__—__—
6th______________2______3___—__—__—
7th______________2______4___2__—__—
8th______________2______4___2__—__—
9th______________2______4___2__—__—
10th_____________3______4___3__—__—
11th_____________3______4___3__—__—
12th_____________3______4___3__—__—
13th_____________3______4___3__2 —__
14th_____________3______4___3__2 —__
15th_____________3______4___3__2 —__
16th_____________3______4___3__3 —__
17th_____________3______4___3__3 —__
18th_____________3______4___3__3 —__
19th_____________3______4___3__3 __1
20th_____________3______4___3__3 __1

CODE OF CONDUCT
A sacred fist takes pride in never trusting his life to a weapon, and the divine powers smile at his decision. Thus, a sacred fist cannot use weapons. If he does so willingly, he loses his Spellcasting feature and all the other features of this way until he atones (during a short or long rest).

BLINDSENSE
At 6th level, you gain uncanny sensivity to vibrations, scent and sound around you, granting you blindsense up to 10 feet.

INNER ARMOR
Starting at 11th level, you can invoke the power of your serenity to strenghten yourself. As a bonus action, you can activate a ward that gives you advantage on all saving throws and adds your proficiency bonus to your Armor Class. This boon lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier. After you use this ward, you can't use it again until after you finish a long rest.

BODY AND MAGIC
Starting at 17th level, when you use your action to cast a spell, you can make an unarmed strike as a bonus action (or two, if you use your Flurry of Blows ability).

Design rant:
This is obviously a draft, so any suggestions are welcome. Most of the features are just an adaptation of the oldschool Sacred Fist from 3.5, with the exception of Body and Magic which is a ripoff from EK's Improved War Magic, meant to combine attacks and magic. I'm not sure if Inner Armor should be a long or short rest feature. If anyone can make a table out of that table, I'd appreciate it, I can't do it in this forum.

[Arkhios]

@Specter: not to belittle your attempt, what about having the Sacred Fist to expend Ki (as a bonus action) to create spell slots, much like the sorcerer, or Wu Jen, but up to 4th level as a 1/3 caster?

[jaappleton]

I did this about 5 months ago. I took inspiration from the Theurge as far as adapting abilities from other domains.

Take a look, maybe it'll work for you.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/56o9jd/monk_archetype_way_of_the_sacred_fist/

[DM7581]

All good ideas, with some along the lines of what I would have come up with. In a balance sense, I doubt most iterations would be considered too powerful. I am not sure about the Monk having access to prepare spells from the full cleric, list, though, as the class seems as it should be a spells known class. Again, this is incomparison to the other 1/3 casters and even the way of the four elements.

Good stuff, overall. Please don't mind if I borrow some ideas here, specifically, the additional path ability ideas, which were a bit rough. I didn't want it to look too eldritch-knighty.

[King539]

You could use MFOV's Enlightened Fist (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/05/enlightened-fist.html) and change it to cleric rather than wizard spells.

[Mortis_Elrod]

@Specter: not to belittle your attempt, what about having the Sacred Fist to expend Ki (as a bonus action) to create spell slots, much like the sorcerer, or Wu Jen, but up to 4th level as a 1/3 caster?

I'm not sure monks get enough ki points for something like that. I would like being able to deliver touch spells through your fists instead of a single attack. Though i think thats in the tranquility monk.

[Malifice]

WAY OF THE SACRED FIST
A sacred fist is a monk who attuned himself to higher powers, which in turn granted him magical powers similar to a priest. These monks have forsworn the use of weapons. They consider their bodies and minds gifts from the deities, and they believe that not developing those gifts to their fullest potential is a sin. Whatever their true beliefs are, Sacred fists are strong in faith, will, and body.

SPELLCASTING
When you reach 3rd level, you augment your martial prowess with the ability to cast spells.
Cantrips. You learn two cantrips of your choice from the cleric spell list. You learn an additional cleric cantrip of your choice at 10th level.
Spell Slots. The Sacred Fist Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
For example, if you prepared the 1st-level spell bless and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast bless using either slot.
Preparing and Casting Spells. You prepare the list of spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + 1/3 of your monk level (rounded up). You can change your list of prepared spells after you finish a long rest.

Monk Level Cantrips Known 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
3rd______________2______2___—__—__—
4th______________2______3___—__—__—
5th______________2______3___—__—__—
6th______________2______3___—__—__—
7th______________2______4___2__—__—
8th______________2______4___2__—__—
9th______________2______4___2__—__—
10th_____________3______4___3__—__—
11th_____________3______4___3__—__—
12th_____________3______4___3__—__—
13th_____________3______4___3__2 —__
14th_____________3______4___3__2 —__
15th_____________3______4___3__2 —__
16th_____________3______4___3__3 —__
17th_____________3______4___3__3 —__
18th_____________3______4___3__3 —__
19th_____________3______4___3__3 __1
20th_____________3______4___3__3 __1

CODE OF CONDUCT
A sacred fist takes pride in never trusting his life to a weapon, and the divine powers smile at his decision. Thus, a sacred fist cannot use weapons. If he does so willingly, he loses his Spellcasting feature and all the other features of this way until he atones (during a short or long rest).

BLINDSENSE
At 6th level, you gain uncanny sensivity to vibrations, scent and sound around you, granting you blindsense up to 10 feet.

INNER ARMOR
Starting at 11th level, you can invoke the power of your serenity to strenghten yourself. As a bonus action, you can activate a ward that gives you advantage on all saving throws and adds your proficiency bonus to your Armor Class. This boon lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier. After you use this ward, you can't use it again until after you finish a long rest.

BODY AND MAGIC
Starting at 17th level, when you use your action to cast a spell, you can make an unarmed strike as a bonus action (or two, if you use your Flurry of Blows ability).

Design rant:
This is obviously a draft, so any suggestions are welcome. Most of the features are just an adaptation of the oldschool Sacred Fist from 3.5, with the exception of Body and Magic which is a ripoff from EK's Improved War Magic, meant to combine attacks and magic. I'm not sure if Inner Armor should be a long or short rest feature. If anyone can make a table out of that table, I'd appreciate it, I can't do it in this forum.

Id give them a Paladin smite effect. I have a class very similar (I called mine the Shugenja).

[MrStabby]

In the past I have allowed element monks to instead pick spells from any single cleric, warlock or paladin domain for a themed caster, rather than elemental.

Picking from something like life or war domains can give a good cleric feel.

I would also strongly dispute that arcane spells are better. Offensive arcane spells are probably better as are high level spells. These are the least relevant spells to a monk. The monk will never get high level spells and can punch things when an action is needed for damage.

The important spells are the spells that enhance what the monk can do whilst not competing for actions in combat. Spirit guardians, bless, bane and so on.

Other spells that let the monk do things they otherwise couldn't are good - healing or restoration effects.

Just giving 4 elements access to spells from the cleric list is a big boost as these are the type of spells that clerics excel at.

[Specter]

Id give them a Paladin smite effect. I have a class very similar (I called mine the Shugenja).

The whole smite thing doesn't work too well with 1/3 casters. Hell, even Paladins crave a full caster multi to get more of them.


All good ideas, with some along the lines of what I would have come up with. In a balance sense, I doubt most iterations would be considered too powerful. I am not sure about the Monk having access to prepare spells from the full cleric, list, though, as the class seems as it should be a spells known class. Again, this is incomparison to the other 1/3 casters and even the way of the four elements.

Good stuff, overall. Please don't mind if I borrow some ideas here, specifically, the additional path ability ideas, which were a bit rough. I didn't want it to look too eldritch-knighty.

Good call, it would be better if they learned spells.


@Specter: not to belittle your attempt, what about having the Sacred Fist to expend Ki (as a bonus action) to create spell slots, much like the sorcerer, or Wu Jen, but up to 4th level as a 1/3 caster?

That could work!

[Malifice]

The whole smite thing doesn't work too well with 1/3 casters. Hell, even Paladins crave a full caster multi to get more of them.

The class needs a damaging option in melee.

Otherwise an open hand Monk 14 / cleric 6 is strictly better.

[MrStabby]

The class needs a damaging option in melee.

Otherwise an open hand Monk 14 / cleric 6 is strictly better.

That there exists a level (and level 20 at that) where a specific multi class combination is marginally better than a single class option is not really strong evidence that the single class option needs a boost.

If it were true that a cleric monk mix were better at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 then I would buy this.

[DM7581]

In the past I have allowed element monks to instead pick spells from any single cleric, warlock or paladin domain for a themed caster, rather than elemental.

Picking from something like life or war domains can give a good cleric feel.

I would also strongly dispute that arcane spells are better. Offensive arcane spells are probably better as are high level spells. These are the least relevant spells to a monk. The monk will never get high level spells and can punch things when an action is needed for damage.

The important spells are the spells that enhance what the monk can do whilst not competing for actions in combat. Spirit guardians, bless, bane and so on.

Other spells that let the monk do things they otherwise couldn't are good - healing or restoration effects.

Just giving 4 elements access to spells from the cleric list is a big boost as these are the type of spells that clerics excel at.

I definitely like the idea of them getting some semblance of domain powers. Light, Knowledge, War, Life, Nature, heck even Tempest might work. Regarding the spells, the reason I feel it would be unbalanced to give them access to the full cleric list is in comparison not only to how the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster are limited not only by spells known, but also by select schools that they must choose the majority of their spells from, but also the limited scope of "spells" granted by the Way of the Four Elements sub-class, which basically gets a total of 4 spells, almost all of which use up Ki points that can be better spent elsewhere.

If a monk had access to say bless, healing word, and a number of other spells that can be cast as bonus actions, without expending any Ki points, then I would argue the build far superior to any other sub-class. My point in balance. In the case of having access to casting burning hands versus bless or holy word (all 1st level spells), I would definitely take the latter as being superior to the build. The idea that wizard/arcane spells are stronger is probably not accurate, but they at least have similar utility and one path should not outright outshine another.

I really like the 1/3 caster idea, with limited spells known (but not limited by school), possibly with domain powers acquired through advancement, but I feel that the Monk class was built to utilize Ki in casting and I may fall back on granting a few spells or spell-like abilities similar to the elemental monk, if purely for balance.

Are there any arguments for the Way of the Four Elements being a solid, or even overpowered option? When compared to the other monk paths? When compared to other similar, 1/3 caster classes?